A path to the darkside, this is.
Don't even get me started on how a Wizard can create Simulacrums to create magic items like a factory.
So, what's your thoughts on wizards creating Simulacrums to create magic items like a factory? ;)
PostMonster General
|
I moved that thread because it was clearly about your proposed changes and fixes for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game rule set, notwithstanding the framing proposed in its opening post. The Pathfinder RPG General Discussion forum is for discussion of the rules as they are. Once you move substantially into "this is how they ought to be" we have an entire forum for that.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"This is how they ought to be" is not "house rules". It's "Hey Paizo, here's a way to fix some problems."
Paizo is routinely commended for their willingness to listen to customer input. It appears there are some limits to that willingness.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yar!
I just feel the need to mention, the "house rule" forum is actually called the "Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew" forum, which is described as "post your rules suggestions, house rules, variant classes, homebrew settings, etc. here.".
"this is how they ought to be" sound a lot like a "rules suggestion", thus that is the perfect forum for it. Indeed, that is where it should be.
Heck, the devs DO go into that forum, read posts/threads there, and even reply to posts there as well. They do listen to your customer input, even when it is in the Suggestions forum.
~P
Can't paizo remove someone's ability to make new thread/topic?
Yar!
I just feel the need to mention, the "house rule" forum is actually called the "Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew" forum, which is described as "post your rules suggestions, house rules, variant classes, homebrew settings, etc. here.".
"this is how they ought to be" sound a lot like a "rules suggestion", thus that is the perfect forum for it. Indeed, that is where it should be.
Heck, the devs DO go into that forum, read posts/threads there, and even reply to posts there as well. They do listen to your customer input, even when it is in the Suggestions forum.
~P
The developers THEMSELVES posted a "what can we do to improve magic item crafting" post in the GENERAL DISCUSSION forum. Not the HOMEBREW forum.
Done with this.
When the developers talk about changes to the rules, they are by definition *not* homebrew. When anyone else does, they are.
With all due respect this is simply not correct. If I am making a suggestion that I beleive is in the best interest of the game, that is a suggestion for the core rules.
If I am making a change just because I have a preference for a certain way of doing things, that is "homebrew."
What you are doing is asserting that any non-developer who makes any conceivable suggestion about a rule is by definition "home brewing."
That might serve your purposes towards shunting discussion to certain boards, but that doesn't change what the conversation is about.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I am making a suggestion that I beleive is in the best interest of the game, that is a suggestion for the core rules.
Emphasis mine.
I just feel the need to mention, the "house rule" forum is actually called the "Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew" forum, which is described as "post your rules suggestions, house rules, variant classes, homebrew settings, etc. here.".
"this is how they ought to be" sound a lot like a "rules suggestion", thus that is the perfect forum for it. Indeed, that is where it should be.
Heck, the devs DO go into that forum, read posts/threads there, and even reply to posts there as well. They do listen to your customer input, even when it is in the Suggestions forum.
~P
Emphasis in original.
I know the devs go there, and I appreciate that they do actually read and respond to suggestions, questions and usually respond with grace and patience to posts that are obnoxious and aggressive.
If you want to start throwing every "general discussion" thread that calls for ideas about certain rules into the "homebrew" forum, go right ahead. You're going to be pretty busy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I disagree about this decision, too. If the standard is supposed to be "You can't discuss about how a part of the system may have problems, because that fundamentally makes your thread homebrew", then you might as well move every discussion about a feat or feat chain or problematic skills like Diplomacy into the homebrew forum.
This feels like a very arbitrary decision to shut up people. I don't support shallowsouls posting style, but having a discussion about the magic item crafting system should be possible, without it being shuffled into a forum where it won't get any developer attention nor attention by most people.
Magnuskn, the only reason I've been posting on this for the past few hours is because I tend to get my neck hackles up when I think something is unfair and/or arbitrary for a hidden reason.
But I've probably well outlived my welcome on this thread. My opinion of the magic item system is well documented. But I still love the game and hate to think people think otherwise.
I don't care for some of the tone of the OPs messages on this subject, but I do think this is a valid discussion that Paizo could actually benefit from.
Yar!
The developers THEMSELVES posted a "what can we do to improve magic item crafting" post in the GENERAL DISCUSSION forum. Not the HOMEBREW forum.
Done with this.
First: Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew, not "homebrew" by itself.
Second: this is very odd. I just finished scouring every page of several searches and I could not find this thread you mention. Perhaps you meant Magic Item Crafting: any unresolved questions? in the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion forum, which is about discussing the Pathfinder game in a more general sense, and the thread premise which is stated in the OP is issues within the current rules for paizo to look at for clarifications purposes to be used in an upcoming product. Seems appropriate to me.
magnuskn: I must disagree with the bulk of your statements. It was not arbitrary, but very deliberate (the thread was doing something that we have a specific forum for, it belongs there). It is not a "shut up" move (locking the thread would be). And as I said before, the devs DO go into the suggestions forum and read and post there.
also: *feels special and warm and fuzzy inside due to Ross quoting me*
^_^
~P
Well, I get that lots of people ( including myself, ahem ) posting their homebrew rules on how they made magic item crafting work does indeed make a thread seem like it could belong in the homebrew forum.
However, just declaring every discussion of the system as belonging by fiat in that Siberia of the Paizo boards seems unfair. A discussion on that sub-system of the is just as much an exercise in dissecting its strengths and flaws as the multitudes of other threads which deal with character builds, the strength of certains feats and skills and classes and so on.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of you seem to be okay with the notion that threads that offer "here's how I play it" posts belong in suggestions/homebrew, but then suggest that threads with posts that amount to "here's how I want Paizo to make people play it" belong in the main forum.
If that's how it worked, the suggestions/homebrew forum would be virtually empty.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some of the "suggestions" actually seem more fitted even to a "Demands" forum.
Is this really that big of an issue? His thread had suggestions on it, so it belongs in the Suggestions board, where it's at now. You can still see the thread under the main Pathfinder tab that looks over all of the boards, so it really makes little difference whether it was moved or not. Seems like a mountain out of a molehill.
Let's move on folks. I don't think there's much to gain in this thread.
By the way, the thread seems to be in the wrong forum, shouldn't it be moved somewhere else.
|
Here's the problem.
If the magic item creation system is supposed to be held together by "GM fiat" AKA "Home brew", then the entire system itself should be in the homebrew forum and never be allowed in the general discussion.
I expect the General Discussion section to start decreasing immediately because it is full of threads where people are offering suggestions.
Now if it doesn't happen then I will start to get a fishy smell in my nostrils.
GM fiat isnt homebrew, it's an expected part of the game. Lots of people dont like it, but it's nonetheless explicitly written into the rules.
|
PostMonster General
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
It turns out, we don't make moderation decisions based on demands. We make them based on judgment calls about what we think is going to foster the best conversation.
In this case Sean specifically stated, "We are not going to change the crafting rules from how they work in the Core Rulebook, so please don't ask us to." So it's one thing to have a thread that seriously asks the question, "Why is the current system remaining when it can be fixed?" Because that's a legitimate question, even if the answer is "We are not about to make people go out and buy a new Core Rulebook because that's bad for customers."
So if the thread had stayed on that discussion, I wouldn't have moved it. Even if it had remained The Most Recent Thread Where We All Discuss Rule Zero One More Time, we would have left it. But instead it turned into a long discussion about possible changes to the rules.
And that's where the judgment call comes into play. How much of a thread needs to be rules suggestions before it gets moved? I have no idea. I do know that having an extensive rules suggestion discussion in the General Discussion forum is less than optimal for anybody else who might want to search for specific discussions of suggested rules—because we have a specific place for that kind of discussion, labeled "Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew."
As to insinuations above that we deliberately exile threads to remote archipelagos where they will wither and die, that is so completely not the way we do things I am not sure how to respond.
|
|
It turns out, we don't make moderation decisions based on demands. We make them based on judgment calls about what we think is going to foster the best conversation.
In this case Sean specifically stated, "We are not going to change the crafting rules from how they work in the Core Rulebook, so please don't ask us to." So it's one thing to have a thread that seriously asks the question, "Why is the current system remaining when it can be fixed?" Because that's a legitimate question, even if the answer is "We are not about to make people go out and buy a new Core Rulebook because that's bad for customers."
So if the thread had stayed on that discussion, I wouldn't have moved it. Even if it had remained The Most Recent Thread Where We All Discuss Rule Zero One More Time, we would have left it. But instead it turned into a long discussion about possible changes to the rules.
And that's where the judgment call comes into play. How much of a thread needs to be rules suggestions before it gets moved? I have no idea. I do know that having an extensive rules suggestion discussion in the General Discussion forum is less than optimal for anybody else who might want to search for specific discussions of suggested rules—because we have a specific place for that kind of discussion, labeled "Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew."
As to insinuations above that we deliberately exile threads to remote archipelagos where they will wither and die, that is so completely not the way we do things I am not sure how to respond.
Which still makes absolutely no sense to be honest.
Why can't we discuss how we don't like the current magic item creation rules? The thread itself was not a thread about homebrewing ideas to make it work, it was a discussion on the current rules in general, how they suck, and with a few ideas sprinkled in that people do to make the rules work or better.
Yar!
Why can't we discuss how we don't like the current magic item creation rules?
No one has said this. Seriously, having a thread moved to an appropriate forum is not analogous to "stop talking about this". It's really not. You can still continue posting in the thread where it is now. Honest!
The thread itself was not a thread about homebrewing ideas to make it work, it was a discussion on the current rules in general, how they suck, and with a few ideas sprinkled in that people do to make the rules work or better.
And as Gary just said, while it may have started out that way, it did not remain that way. That "sprinkling" was pretty prevalent. So much so that a moderator (Gary) made a judgement call that "yup, this is now more in the realm of Suggestions and House Rules than Pathfinder RPG General", and lo! The thread was moved to a more appropriate forum where the discussion can continue!
~P
Pirates arent generally known for their calm, reasonable manners.
Keep this up and "talk like a pirate day" is going to be quite different this year.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow! A polite, respectful and wise pirate!
Shallowsoul, as Pirate said, you can continue to talk about how you would change the magic item creation in the suggestion section. But Sean K Reynolds said:
* We are not going to change the crafting rules from how they work in the Core Rulebook, so please don't ask us to.
Since they won't make any change, your thread was moved where it belong. We all know your crusade against the ''bad magic item creation rules'', but you need to calm down and start diplomacy. You sound a little to much aggressive and annoying. Give and take, with the help of everyone and little change to the existing rules, maybe you'll come with a better crafting system.
*Again, sorry for my bad english. I'm a French speaker.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's the problem.
If the magic item creation system is supposed to be held together by "GM fiat" AKA "Home brew", then the entire system itself should be in the homebrew forum and never be allowed in the general discussion.
I expect the General Discussion section to start decreasing immediately because it is full of threads where people are offering suggestions.
Now if it doesn't happen then I will start to get a fishy smell in my nostrils.
The magic item creation system is not held together by "homebrew". You just don't like the system. Many of your proposed changes are because you do not like some of the elements that are clearly spelled out in the rules - base price 50% of sale price, crafting while adventuring, etc - not because "GM Fiat" is needed to make them work. They work perfectly well as written.
The area where they drift into what can be called "GM Fiat" is custom items. This is not a flaw of the system - it is a feature explicitly built into it. This, however, does not mean the rest of the creation rules are GM Fiat.
If you have a better suggestion just start a post in the homebrew forum with a clear explanation of your own system, rather than throwing out posts basically saying the system is broken and then attacking people who say it isn't. None of the suggestions you have made to date could not be accomodated within the Pathfinder magic item creation rules. But that is the beauty of the system - you can use what you want, modify other bits, homebrew to your heart's content.
But to continually attack other posters, devs and moderators is just tendentious and childish. Some of your suggestions have some merit and provide options for someone to change how things work in their own game but many people will just ignore them because of the manner in which you express them.
In conveying a message, how you say it can be just as important as what you say...
the magic item creation system balances itself out in the end.
you sell looted gear for half price, you craft for half price. it evens out to the same value in the end, with maybe the conversion of a handful of gold pieces. but it's a good idea to carry a handful of gold or similar portable trade good for bribes, permits, taxes, and similar transactions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It turns out, we don't make moderation decisions based on demands. We make them based on judgment calls about what we think is going to foster the best conversation.
In this case Sean specifically stated, "We are not going to change the crafting rules from how they work in the Core Rulebook, so please don't ask us to." So it's one thing to have a thread that seriously asks the question, "Why is the current system remaining when it can be fixed?" Because that's a legitimate question, even if the answer is "We are not about to make people go out and buy a new Core Rulebook because that's bad for customers."
So if the thread had stayed on that discussion, I wouldn't have moved it. Even if it had remained The Most Recent Thread Where We All Discuss Rule Zero One More Time, we would have left it. But instead it turned into a long discussion about possible changes to the rules.
And that's where the judgment call comes into play. How much of a thread needs to be rules suggestions before it gets moved? I have no idea. I do know that having an extensive rules suggestion discussion in the General Discussion forum is less than optimal for anybody else who might want to search for specific discussions of suggested rules—because we have a specific place for that kind of discussion, labeled "Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew."
As to insinuations above that we deliberately exile threads to remote archipelagos where they will wither and die, that is so completely not the way we do things I am not sure how to respond.
Well, then, why were the Monk discussions not moved to Suggestions/Homebrew? They did the exact thing, question the core Monk class and ask for extensive changes. With lots and lots of suggestions on how to improve the class. And that already happened before Sean and Jason gave any indication that they'd be willing to make the fixes they implemented in the end.
The problem here is that the insinuations from the mods through the last days have been that every future discussion of the magic item creation sub-system will be immediately pushed into that other forum, and I don't find that acceptable, in light of the many, many other discussions about the other systems of the game which are not in any danger of being moved. It reeks of a double standard.
|
|
the magic item creation system balances itself out in the end.
you sell looted gear for half price, you craft for half price. it evens out to the same value in the end, with maybe the conversion of a handful of gold pieces. but it's a good idea to carry a handful of gold or similar portable trade good for bribes, permits, taxes, and similar transactions.
Wut?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just a completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
|
|
Maybe the best would be to create a "Pathfinder System Discussion" sub-forum, so that people could have those theorycraft discussions without being mixed in with the homebrewn stuff, which is another type of topic entirely.
"Here is my homebrewn Swashbuckler class!" is just an completely different type of thread from the "These are the flaws of the magic item creation system" type and should not, IMO, be on the same forum.
Agreed!
Discussing the need to change a part of the system and possible ways to do it is completely different than you talking about changes you are going to do in your home games.