Goblin Squad Member
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I think it's pretty clear the assassin's target will be able to react.
Assassin (Evil)
Assassin is for players who want to kill specific other players, or more generally kill other players (as who doesn't like a critical hit bonus?). Assassins do have a signifier of their assassin flag, so their intent may be detected, but they also have a Stealth bonus so they can remain out of sight. Some folks have voiced concern that assassins will not be able to escape since they will be marked as an assassin, but that's what Stealth is for (and if you could hide the assassin flag after completing your kill, the guy you just killed could use chat, a vent server, etc., to tell everyone who killed him anyway).This flag cannot be disabled while Attacker, Criminal, or Heinous (or their 24-hour versions) are active.
While Assassin is active:
The player gets a bonus to Stealth and critical chance that scales up each hour they remain flagged, up to ten hours.
These bonuses reset to the minimum upon gaining the Attacker flag unless the target was the subject of a bounty or assassination contract held by the Assassin. (Remember: you don't get Attacker in wars, if the target already has a PvP flag, etc.)
If an Assassin has had his flag active for at least an hour and kills a character with an active bounty or assassination contract, the Assassin gains bonus reputation up to a daily max. (Any other kills made by the Assassin suffer the normal reputation and alignment losses, so keep collateral damage to a minimum!)
Attacks by an Assassin have a chance to sever a link to one of the target's respawn bind spots, meaning they may have not have access to their preferred respawn point if killed. Targets killed by an Assassin have a dramatically higher chance of this happening. So assassinating someone may take them out of the action for a while as they work their way back to their original location over a longer distance.
Assassins get a bonus to critical hits. This means they will be far more likely to wound an opponent making it more difficult for them to fight back, but they won't be getting any kind of death attack.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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These issues could all apply to someone assaulted by a bandit, or jumped by a PK'er while harvesting. In both cases the victim will be having as much "fun" as the victim of a pickpocket.100% agree. Exactly what I was trying to resolve with my suggestion.Even if the thief is detected every time, what about the noncombatant (i.e. the most likely, lowest-risk target for a pickpocket)? They simply don't have the option of forcefully reacquiring their goods. Should they be required to hire a guard 100% of the time, to wander around with them in town simply to guard against pickpockets?
It can be fun to lose a fight, or to fail to escape, or simply to have to evaluate the entire complex situation and determine if your best course of action is to fight or flee.
It can be fun to lose a fight, or to fail to escape, or simply to have to evaluate the entire complex situation and determine if your best course of action is to fight or flee.
But that's subjective, what I see as fun you might see as tedious. That sort of call is best done by vote unless the Devs decide to decide. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually i dont believe your last sentence, which didn't copy in the quote, is correct. We don't know for sure how they will react, but if you've been pick pocketed, the thief will be flagged and the game should view you as being "in combat". If that's the case you could run to the guards and if they react like I think they will, the guards will go after the thief killing them and allowing you to recover your item.
I might be wrong in thinking this, but don't believe I am.
That may well be possible - but while you're running to find an NPC guard, the pickpocket is running away. The pickpocket is not going to chase you to a guard, they've already got what they want.
If I were a pickpocket in a game like this, trying to make a profit, there's a few people I would specifically target - those who appear to be noncombatants (relatively risk-free), and people who stand in one place for more than 30 seconds (probably AFK, won't even notice until they get back). All those "fun" victim scenarios you are thinking of where you catch a pickpocket and fight them? They won't happen, because pickpockets won't go for anyone who looks like they might be a problem to fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it's pretty clear the assassin's target will be able to react.
...Assassins get a bonus to critical hits. This...
Just to be clear, that is the assassin flag. And as the enforcer flag does not define all that someone who wants to enforce laws will encompass, so too is the assassin flag only one piece of information we have about how assassination will work. Maybe there will be no more to it than that, but so far we're both just assuming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually i dont believe your last sentence, which didn't copy in the quote, is correct. We don't know for sure how they will react, but if you've been pick pocketed, the thief will be flagged and the game should view you as being "in combat". If that's the case you could run to the guards and if they react like I think they will, the guards will go after the thief killing them and allowing you to recover your item.
I might be wrong in thinking this, but don't believe I am.
That may well be possible - but while you're running to find an NPC guard, the pickpocket is running away. The pickpocket is not going to chase you to a guard, they've already got what they want.
If I were a pickpocket in a game like this, trying to make a profit, there's a few people I would specifically target - those who appear to be noncombatants (relatively risk-free), and people who stand in one place for more than 30 seconds (probably AFK, won't even notice until they get back). All those "fun" victim scenarios you are thinking of where you catch a pickpocket and fight them? They won't happen, because pickpockets won't go for anyone who looks like they might be a problem to fight.
So how would this be different with a PK scenario?
If I play a stealth character without pickpockets, I am forced to play the alpha strike burst archetype. I just target the weak or AFK, burst them down and loot their husks and slink off into the shadows. I get all the same flags as a pickpocket would, but the difference is you have forced me to PK you to get a few items.
Actually i dont believe your last sentence, which didn't copy in the quote, is correct. We don't know for sure how they will react, but if you've been pick pocketed, the thief will be flagged and the game should view you as being "in combat". If that's the case you could run to the guards and if they react like I think they will, the guards will go after the thief killing them and allowing you to recover your item.
I might be wrong in thinking this, but don't believe I am.
That may well be possible - but while you're running to find an NPC guard, the pickpocket is running away. The pickpocket is not going to chase you to a guard, they've already got what they want.
If I were a pickpocket in a game like this, trying to make a profit, there's a few people I would specifically target - those who appear to be noncombatants (relatively risk-free), and people who stand in one place for more than 30 seconds (probably AFK, won't even notice until they get back). All those "fun" victim scenarios you are thinking of where you catch a pickpocket and fight them? They won't happen, because pickpockets won't go for anyone who looks like they might be a problem to fight.
So how would this be different with a PK scenario?
If I play a stealth character without pickpockets, I am forced to play the alpha strike burst archetype. I just target the weak or AFK, burst them down and loot their husks and slink off into the shadows. I get all the same flags as a pickpocket would, but the difference is you have forced me to PK you to get a few items.
In this scenario the victim would lose a whole lot more then 1 item. Score for the PK'er, or thief.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So how would this be different with a PK scenario?If I play a stealth character without pickpockets, I am forced to play the alpha strike burst archetype. I just target the weak or AFK, burst them down and loot their husks and slink off into the shadows. I get all the same flags as a pickpocket would, but the difference is you have forced me to PK you to get a few items.
It's much more difficult to safely PK someone to death in the middle of a crowded street.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
You are forgetting,
No, I'm not forgetting anything. You just haven't thought it through IF you are saying (as I think you are saying) that duplication by pickpocketing is dwarfed (sorry Hobs, no slight intended) by the entire PC crafting industrial capacity game-wide.
Remember you were responding to a proposal that to eliminate the angst of someone stealing your sweetroll GW could build a way to duplicate the item successfully picked so the 'victim' lost nothing and the pickpocket gained his shiny.
What of the instance where thief A acquires a very rare and valuable item. To replicate that rare and valuable item Thief A enrolls Thief B to pickpocket from him over and over and over until they have a thousand. That is the scenario that prompted me to propose a long cool-down.
I want pickpocketing and lockpick in the game for the thieves and others who desire those skills just like trap detection/disarm. I want them to be really really meaningful. But I don't want them to be exploitable to the detriment of the game.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You are forgetting,No, I'm not forgetting anything. You just haven't thought it through IF you are saying (as I think you are saying) that duplication by pickpocketing is dwarfed (sorry Hobs, no slight intended) by the entire PC crafting industrial capacity game-wide.
Remember you were responding to a proposal that to eliminate the angst of someone stealing your sweetroll GW could build a way to duplicate the item successfully picked so the 'victim' lost nothing and the pickpocket gained his shiny.
What of the instance where thief A acquires a very rare and valuable item. To replicate that rare and valuable item Thief A enrolls Thief B to pickpocket from him over and over and over until they have a thousand. That is the scenario that prompted me to propose a long cool-down.
I want pickpocketing and lockpick in the game for the thieves and others who desire those skills just like trap detection/disarm. I want them to be really really meaningful. But I don't want them to be exploitable to the detriment of the game.
To be economically fair, it would have to be as hard to wait out that cooldown as it was to make the item created by the standard means. Can you make it fair and interesting for making a sweetroll by pickpocketing to be as difficult as making one from scratch by baking (starting with clearing the gnolls off of the farm)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's much more difficult to safely PK someone to death in the middle of a crowded street.
So how would this be different with a PK scenario?If I play a stealth character without pickpockets, I am forced to play the alpha strike burst archetype. I just target the weak or AFK, burst them down and loot their husks and slink off into the shadows. I get all the same flags as a pickpocket would, but the difference is you have forced me to PK you to get a few items.
Absolutely agree. But the point is, the rogue is forced down that path is they want to play the 'thief' archetype. The weak or AFK are now made to rely on the good will of others, or aid from NPC guards to help them out. If that help does not eventuate, the character is killed and looted...way worse than a simple pickpocket. With a pickpocket skill, the weak and AFK are forced to rely on other mitigants (such as magical aid) OR rely on good will/aid from others. If that help does not eventuate or the mitigants do not work, they lose a single item or some coin.
Refer to my previous post about why I think the stealth archetype needs pickpocket/sleight of hand. In a nutshell, you're really limiting the abilities of the stealth class and railroading them into the alpha strike role if such options are not there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...To be economically fair, it would have to be as hard to wait out that cooldown as it was to make the item created by the standard means. Can you make it fair and interesting for making a sweetroll by pickpocketing to be as difficult as making one from scratch by baking (starting with clearing the gnolls off of the farm)?
Depends. Will a CE have to trek all the way across the lands, identify his mark, sneak up on him and successfully pluck the sweetroll from his hand unseen and escape? Are sweetrolls made by the dozen from batches of many pounds and selling for half a penny?
Hard to say, but it might be that that is the only way a CE Thief can get his sweetroll.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What of the instance where thief A acquires a very rare and valuable item. To replicate that rare and valuable item Thief A enrolls Thief B to pickpocket from him over and over and over until they have a thousand. That is the scenario that prompted me to propose a long cool-down.
I want pickpocketing and lockpick in the game for the thieves and others who desire those skills just like trap detection/disarm. I want them to be really really meaningful. But I don't want them to be exploitable to the detriment of the game.
Hobs the Short 1 hou
We throw in the long cooldown or whatever towards it, say every 3 days. I'm a thief, think I'm going to waste my pickpocket attempt on someone who "might" have something worth duplicating? Or am I going to make it count by pickpocketing someone who has been cherry picked and set to the maximum potential of the best reward possible. If it does not hurt them, why would anyone not volunteer to position themselves to assist you as much as possible for the theft?
Without loss, it by definition is exploitable, because there is no reason a victim would not only not try to stop you, but work specifically to aid you. At which point it is either exploitable, or the response will have to be to ensure the value of the cloning isn't worth bothering, or that the results are not based on manufacturable scenerios (which essentially means they are random). Both of which pretty much kill any and all chance of making theft resemble anything I would consider "meaningful"
IMO meaningful theft by definition, mandates the victim to have incentive not to be stolen from. If the victim does not have incentive to hinder you, than you can pretty much bet most victims will actually desire to help you.
I assure you - not the same person as I am.
You created a new alias just to post that? =P
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's much more difficult to safely PK someone to death in the middle of a crowded street.
Not only that, but PKing someone also brings other mechanisms into play (death curse, bounties) whereas the pickpocket victim has no such alternative means of retaliating.
If I play a stealth character without pickpockets, I am forced to play the alpha strike burst archetype. I just target the weak or AFK, burst them down and loot their husks and slink off into the shadows. I get all the same flags as a pickpocket would, but the difference is you have forced me to PK you to get a few items.
So instead of forcing you to PK me, you take my stuff first and then force ME to (try to) PK YOU to get it back. It's exactly the same thing except you don't even have to finish the fight, you can just run away with my stuff, and if I lose the fight I've lost even more than if you just PK'd me in the first place. Yeah, sounds so much better your way....
Besides, there's plenty of stuff for stealthy characters to do that doesn't involve either stealing from OR attacking lone victims with large burst DPS, like scouting, spying, exploration, ambushes, flanking, etc. You're presenting a false dichotomy.
It's not the theft itself that bothers me, it's the sheer arbitrariness of becoming a victim. You might as well have everyone periodically lose stuff at random - try THAT out and see how much players like it. IF pickpocketing were restricted to work only by contract like assassination (and thus the well-informed potential victim can take specific precautions, lay traps, etc., in addition to making the whole thing relatively rare), then it might be workable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the stealth archetype needs pickpocket/sleight of hand. In a nutshell, you're really limiting the abilities of the stealth class and railroading them into the alpha strike role if such options are not there.
That's a limited usage of one skill, since there are other uses for SoH than theft. You're presenting a very narrow view of what a rogue can be if the only two options you see are pickpocket or backstab. What's up with that false dichotomy?
Also, why do you say "the" stealth archetype/class, as if there is only one? Rangers are also a stealth class... along with anyone who invests in the Stealth skill and avoids heavy armour.
Every active skill so far seems to be item-driven, so if a thief needs their kit equipped in order to use their skills, that prevents the 'naked suicide thief' issue that UO had. Even a cheap thieves' toolkit is worth 30g, and of course upgrades versions are more expensive. When pickpockets get whacked, there will be something of theirs to lose.
As long as there is plenty of opportunity for defence against theft, especially in a high-reputation or lawful settlement, I think the flavour of pickpocketing being possible is valuable. If someone goes to Thornkeep (the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" NPC town) or any CN/CE/NE/N place, I'd expect them to be on guard. LE/LN/NE/N towns might allow a registered thieves' guild which overlooks some crimes as long as you're paying a percentage or dues for the privilege. CG/NG might get away with pickpocketing rich tourists only, while LG/LN/NG/N are likely to outlaw all thievery and have more vigilant guards.
If a thief does get whacked/arrested in a more lawful-leaning town, it would be cool to have them locked up for a certain amount of in-game time. They could pay the community to bail themselves out early, or that character could have to literally sit there (logged-out time won't count) until the sentence expires.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?This is our concern. We'd like to include a pickpocketing system, but it's the kind of thing that's hard to make fun for the target, even on a detection.
If the player and thief are both in a settlement and the thief attempts to PP and gets detected (succeed or fail in the PP attempt), he gets flagged to the potential victim, and the victim gets a "Thief" button that appears for a short duration, like 10 seconds. If he/she notices the button they can press it to shout "Thief" and draw the attention of patrolling enforcers who would pursue the would be thief. And the thief had better run for it!
Alternatively, the thief could attempt and fail.
Or the thief could attempt, succeed, but not be detected and scram with the loot (might be random, maybe not even something of the victim but from a table).
Finally, if a player is travelling to an area known for pickpocketing there could be trick coinpurses to use at a cost, or magical defenses, coin purses that explode, or coin purses that shout "Help!".
I'm just hoping that new alias doesn't begin reciting love poetry to you...But with your name and your healthy cynicism, that may be expecting too much ;b
Well, my beast-boy did sing me some really sappy stuff when we were dating, not so much anymore. What're you sayin' here?
But really, "Aunt Tony" is a character I used for a little while, once upon a time. She's perhaps an acquired taste. Like a sharp cheese or strong black coffee. And oh-so-stealthy.
I can't quite bring myself to register for your underground bakery / site. Remains to be seen what becomes of PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Besides, there's plenty of stuff for stealthy characters to do that doesn't involve either stealing from OR attacking lone victims with large burst DPS, like scouting, spying, exploration, ambushes, flanking, etc. You're presenting a false dichotomy.
Apologies, I certainly didn't intend to put forth a false dichotomy, but rather represent a reasoning as to why theft was a mechanic that would add depth to the game and character concepts.
Your other examples are indeed valid for stealth characters (except maybe spying). I guess the consensus is we just will not be seeing thieves apart from the SAD mechanic which is more a mugging/stand over tactic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's a limited usage of one skill, since there are other uses for SoH than theft. You're presenting a very narrow view of what a rogue can be if the only two options you see are pickpocket or backstab. What's up with that false dichotomy?
As my above post, I was not intending to represent a false dichotomy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This whole pickpocketing issue seems to be getting over complicated.
It could really be a very simple mechanic:
1. Pickpocketing skill vs. Perception Skill - A simple roll where the outcome is determined by the quality of the PP attempt, modified by the Perception of the victim.
Critical Success = Thief escapes without notice and 2 x portion of normal success.
Success = Thief escapes without notice and normal portion.
Draw = Thief gets normal portion, but is immediately detected and flagged as a "Thief"
Fail = Thief gets nothing and is immediately detected and flagged as a "Thief"
Critical Fail = Thief gets nothing, Immediately detected, flagged and loses action points and unable to attempt to flee immediately. Victim gains intitiated bonus.
2. What can and can not be stolen?
Pickpocketing can only yeild what is capabale of being in a pocket, pouch or small sheath (ie. dagger) unless the item is threaded (ie dagger).
This will limit the amount that the thief can steal to, in most cases, a few coins or perhaps gem stones if they are in the pouch.
Armor, large weapons, or anything that would defy common sense, can not be pick pocketed. (ie. You can not pick pocket a pair of glasses off someone's face or the boots of their feet, etc.)
3. Why is pick pocketing important to PFO?
Pick Pocketing, Lock Picking, Stealth, etc.. are staples of Fantasy Role Playing games.
Pick Pocketing is often the entry level thieves' skill for the Rogue "classes" and provides something for those players to do with their thieving characters on day one!
Pick Pocketing will add a certain tension to walking the streets of a large settlement, regardless of that settlements alignment. How much sense would it make to feel "completely secure" is your posessions when we are in a big city?
4. Why is it not as big a deal as some have made it out to be?
A pick pocket will most likely only get a handful of coins, and that is it.
You protection form it is a Perception roll. All you have to do is train Perception, whioch will have other applications anyway, in order to better protect yourself from PP attempts.
It does not matter that your defense is passive. So is your armor. To argue that pick pocketing is OP because it is unfun for the victim is just silly. Not everything that can happen to your character will be fun.
Again, we are only talking about a handful of coins here. If you are going to cry and rage quit over a handful of coins, or at best a dagger or handful of gems... MMOs are maybe not your cup of tea.
5. What is the expected Risk vs. Reward for PPing?
Pick Pocketing has always been a Moderate to High Risk vs. Low to Moderate Reward. It has always been slanted in favor of the victim.
6. So why do thieves do it?
Thieves are perhaps the most adventurous "class" in all of Fantasy Role Playing. We expect high risk for low reward, but always hold hope for that "Big Score"!
Final comment....
I can only imagine what an uproar lock picking into player housing will cause!!
They could always give the thief a variation of the SAD, allowing them to "hold up" a player and demand some valuables?
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Goblin Squad Member
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They could always give the thief a variation of the SAD, allowing them to "hold up" a player and demand some valuables?
That is not stealthy or pick pocketing, it is mugging.
If you really want all "thieves" to be CE RPkers, instead of just stealing a few coins, we will ablidge you in that.
I made the Clockwork Orange reference earlier in this thread.
What the lack of pick pocketing or stealthy stealing will do is lead to the Eve-esque suicide gank.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What the lack of pick pocketing or stealthy stealing will do is lead to the Eve-esque suicide gank.
Adding theft would lessen the likelyness of suicide gankings? I don't follow this logic.
If eve added some way for say pilots to randomly teleport a small amount of cargo from one ship to their own would that lessen suicide ganks? In my opinion, at best it would be used as a scout prior to a suicide gank. IE... check.. ah he's got crap, check guy 2, crap, check guy 3... OOOH Now this is worth it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It might. It might not. The more important consideration is the expanded opportunity for meaningful player interaction. It is one thing to worry that the game will lose some kinds of players because they cannot countenance losing their sweetroll, and another thing to lose some players because the sandbox is running on rails to give sweetroll-lovers a risk-free experience. Perhaps it will be better for the game in the long run for risk-averse players to learn that reward stems from merit more than from playing like a vegetable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Adding theft would lessen the likelyness of suicide gankings? I don't follow this logic.
If eve added some way for say pilots to randomly teleport a small amount of cargo from one ship to their own would that lessen suicide ganks? In my opinion, at best it would be used as a scout prior to a suicide gank. IE... check.. ah he's got crap, check guy 2, crap, check guy 3... OOOH Now this is worth it.
If I'm a thief and I have to resort to killing in order to steal, the best way to do this in a settled (semi protected) area is to use the suicide-gank model.
Have three, throw away alts, alpha strike the target, then run off. Then the thief moves in and steals from the husk, getting the "thief flag" but not the "murder flag".
The benefit to the thief in this exchange is that all contents (untrheaded) will be their's to have. Instead of perhaps the handful of coins he might have gotten from the pick pocket attempt.
A second advanatge is that the "thief" is never part of the actual attack, so no flag for that, just the thief flag. Only alignement shift would be chaotic, not evil.
Unlike in EVE, the settlement wardens or the PCs have not been described, or are not as instant - death as EVE's CONCORD. So even the suicide-gankers, might not actually be committing suicide at all.
Your EVE analogy of scanning cargo, is not really practical for a thief unless he has some kind of magic item or spell that allows him to see inside a PCs pouch. Besides, that is anti climatic for the thief as well. Most of the fun in being a thief is the mystery of what you might get. If you know ahead of time, then it is not as adventurous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your EVE analogy of scanning cargo, is not really practical for a thief unless he has some kind of magic item or spell that allows him to see inside a PCs pouch. Besides, that is anti climatic for the thief as well. Most of the fun in being a thief is the mystery of what you might get. If you know ahead of time, then it is not as adventurous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's a limited usage of one skill, since there are other uses for SoH than theft. You're presenting a very narrow view of what a rogue can be if the only two options you see are pickpocket or backstab. What's up with that false dichotomy?As my above post, I was not intending to represent a false dichotomy.
It's okay... funny that Tuoweit and I both recognized it the same way, though. From the posting times, it looks like we were posting concurrently; I'm a slow typist who proofreads and edits a lot.
You protection form it is a Perception roll. All you have to do is train Perception, whioch will have other applications anyway, in order to better protect yourself from PP attempts.
Sleight-of-Hand is a Dexterity skill able to be trained to higher levels by rogues than most people can train the Wisdom-based Perception skill. There are a ton of situational modifiers, like keeping your valuables somewhere easier to watch or directly holding them while near others, other people watching, standing in good lighting, putting a dagger in the eye of someone who 'accidentally' bumps into you, etc.
Perception is not the only defence. There are ways to make containers more secure (medieval pockets were belt pouches) and to trap them.
As to breaking into player housing, IF such exists, then people just won't put anything valuable in a house that can be robbed. They'll keep more of their assets liquid and in the bank. If you can rob a settlement bank, they'll move to an NPC bank. If you can rob an NPC bank, they'll make 'mule' henchmen to load up and log off. In the end, all that happens is you make the world look more empty and plain. A few people may intentionally build content for you with locks and traps to deal with, but there's obviously a limit to how much they can stock, and it's artificial, not a chance to victimize others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This whole pickpocketing issue seems to be getting over complicated.
It could really be a very simple mechanic:
1. Pickpocketing skill vs. Perception Skill - A simple roll where the outcome is determined by the quality of the PP attempt, modified by the Perception of the victim.
Critical Success = Thief escapes without notice and 2 x portion of normal success.
Success = Thief escapes without notice and normal portion.
Draw = Thief gets normal portion, but is immediately detected and flagged as a "Thief"
Fail = Thief gets nothing and is immediately detected and flagged as a "Thief"
Critical Fail = Thief gets nothing, Immediately detected, flagged and loses action points and unable to attempt to flee immediately. Victim gains intitiated bonus.
2. What can and can not be stolen?
Pickpocketing can only yeild what is capabale of being in a pocket, pouch or small sheath (ie. dagger) unless the item is threaded (ie dagger).
This will limit the amount that the thief can steal to, in most cases, a few coins or perhaps gem stones if they are in the pouch.
Armor, large weapons, or anything that would defy common sense, can not be pick pocketed. (ie. You can not pick pocket a pair of glasses off someone's face or the boots of their feet, etc.)
3. Why is pick pocketing important to PFO?
Pick Pocketing, Lock Picking, Stealth, etc.. are staples of Fantasy Role Playing games.
Pick Pocketing is often the entry level thieves' skill for the Rogue "classes" and provides something for those players to do with their thieving characters on day one!
Pick Pocketing will add a certain tension to walking the streets of a large settlement, regardless of that settlements alignment. How much sense would it make to feel "completely secure" is your posessions when we are in a big city?
4. Why is it not as big a deal as some have made it out to be?
A pick pocket will most likely only get a handful of coins, and that is it.
You protection form it is a Perception roll. All you...
Except again...I still think one sided-PVP interactions are against the design philosophy of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It isn't really one sided PvP interaction. 'Unilateral PvP interaction' is pretty close to an oxymoron. The second side is only passive unless it fails. When it fails it becomes heavily multi-sided.
I don't see that as contrary to the design philosophy, especially if compared to, say, an ambush.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It isn't really one sided PvP interaction. 'Unilateral PvP interaction' is pretty close to an oxymoron. The second side is only passive unless it fails. When it fails it becomes heavily multi-sided.
I don't see that as contrary to the design philosophy.
Sorry, I would be arguing against a one-kill sniper shot availability too...and semantically, "one-sided PvP interaction" describes that perfectly.
To each their own then. I would prefer no pickpocketing than an implementation I cannot (or might not...little difference to me) get an opportunity to defend myself from.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except again...I still think one sided-PVP interactions are against the design philosophy of the game.
It's not one-sided, but your defense (perception) is handled on the server by the game client. That can give a feeling of it being one-sided if you get robbed and don't notice it, but you had a defense in place. The only thing is you are only informed of an instance if your defense is successful.
It's the exact same thing that goes into stealth vs perception.
If this is something the devs want to include or not remains to be seen. If it is then I hope that any description of perception or alertness traits in the xp trees clearly state this is used to defend against pick-pockets and view hidden characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealth is a poor example. Stealth does not cause any direct harm to the person you're sneaking up on. Scouting can cause indirect harm by increasing the chances of an action that is actually PVP, but not do any itself.
The pickpocketing systems here are all not PvP. The victim player is not involved. The character is, the player is not. They are Player vs Mechanic. Unless you fail. Then they *might* become PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
It's the exact same thing that goes into stealth vs perception.If this is something the devs want to include or not remains to be seen. If it is then I hope that any description of perception or alertness traits in the xp trees clearly state this is used to defend against pick-pockets and view hidden characters.
...and traps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kitnyx
Training passive skills to defend against pick pocketing is proactive. Pick pocketing is not one sided as you claim. But even if it is, it is beneficial to the game far beyond the minor inconvenience that petty theft will cause.
If the loss of a few coins is enough to cause you worry, open pvp games are not for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealth is a poor example. Stealth does not cause any direct harm to the person you're sneaking up on. Scouting can cause indirect harm by increasing the chances of an action that is actually PVP, but not do any itself.
The pickpocketing systems here are all not PvP. The victim player is not involved. The character is, the player is not. They are Player vs Mechanic. Unless you fail. Then they *might* become PvP.
I don't agree. If you reach into my private places and grab my jewels ...and even worse, remove those jewels...without my permission. It is an attack...whether I realize my jewels are being removed as it occurs or later.
I don't see how this can be interpreted as anything but an attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealth is a poor example. Stealth does not cause any direct harm to the person you're sneaking up on. Scouting can cause indirect harm by increasing the chances of an action that is actually PVP, but not do any itself.
The pickpocketing systems here are all not PvP. The victim player is not involved. The character is, the player is not. They are Player vs Mechanic. Unless you fail. Then they *might* become PvP.
I don't agree. If you reach into my private places and grab my jewels ...and even worse, remove those jewels...without my permission. It is an attack...whether I realize my jewels are being removed as it occurs or later.
I don't see how this can be interpreted as anything but an attack.
I agree it is an attack, but because it is stealth based and meant to be an unnoticed attack, when it is successful you won't know it.
When it fails you will not only know it, but you will also be able to punish the thief with death!
As I detailed above, the pvp exchange gives the victim a slight edge. The risk vs reward is also not in the Thief's favor, because he could actually get nothing even if he goes unnoticed.
Not all pvp has to be consensual and it does not have to be combat based. Player settlements, no matter what their laws should not be Utopias where no crime exists because there is no mechanic for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it possible to create a Pickpocketing system where the victim does get an opportunity to actively resist the attempt? I think this is very similar to the Crowd Control problem; there needs to be some way for a PC to actively resist some mechanic that really fits the flavor but hasn't ever been implemented in a way that made it fun for the victim.
I can envision a system where a Pickpocket engages a Mark and then they both use the Skills they've trained to resolve the conflict. A Retreat by the Mark should count as a victory for the Pickpocket. At the end of the encounter, one of three things occurs: 1) the Pickpocket succeeds, and gains something of value; 2) the Mark has identified the Pickpocket, who is now flagged as a Criminal and must try to escape without being killed by the Mark or by the Guards; or 3) nothing happens.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I recall in AD&D the players would occasionally remind the DM they were taking particular care looking for traps. Actively searching yeilds more clues than passively searching. It slows movement, but increased their chance to notice details.
Possibly the player character could similarly set a 'heightened alertness' state which increases their ability to detect stealth/pickpocketing. Probably they would have to reduce their ability to do other things while in this state.
I know that when I have an impression that I am in dangerous territory in RL I tend to move into what is at least subjectively a hieghtened state of alertness.
People would stare if I did it like Clouseau.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I may be missing the mechanics, but we will not be actually rolling for attacks. We use a weapon and the client/server calculates the success/failure and the results. It seems that we would have to activate a flag that makes us hyper-aware (per @Being) in order to get a chance to actively intercept a pickpocket attempt. The argument that armor is a passive interaction does not consider using any feats that might be available, like total defense or fight defensively.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder whether GW would be open to the idea that some passive skills train on use? Might it be workable that the more you are present to a server-side initiated perception-check it slightly increments your perception skill?
Perception is a multipurpose skill. Players will have good reason to train these passive skills first, as a core for all characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the loss of a few coins is enough to cause you worry, open pvp games are not for you.
Stop presenting this strawman. The arguments against pickpocketing have zero to do with the relative value of the potential loss, but rather the way in which it occurs.
You also seem to be confusing "open pvp games" with "games that provide asymmetrical systems with which you can victimize other players at your leisure." The former does not require the latter.
Not all pvp has to be consensual and it does not have to be combat based.
I agree entirely. But all pvp SHOULD allow both sides to participate, rather than one side rolling against a stat on someone's character sheet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But all pvp SHOULD allow both sides to participate, rather than one side rolling against a stat on someone's character sheet.
What you are failing to grasp is that if the victim
Us provided the means to actively prevent pick pocketing, it is no longer a successful pick pocket attempt.It is a stealth based activity. If you know it is happening, the thief failed. You can not have an active defense, that defies logic.
If everyone is subject to the same rules / mechanics it can not be unfair. Even Stephen Cheney's concern is not valid, based on this reality.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can not have an active defense, that defies logic.
Not really. It's fairly easy for me to envision a system that makes sense, and actually sounds kind of fun (at least to me).
A Pickpocket engages a Mark, initiating a Pickpocket Encounter. Before the Mark knows anything is happening, either the System or the Pickpocket determine which items/coin are vulnerable. Once the "pot" is established, the two players are presented with the Pickpocket Encounter mini-game, where they can each use the Skills and Abilities they've trained. If either player flees, logs off, or otherwise terminates the encounter early, they lose.
The Encounter resolves along two distinct result axes:
1. How much of the goods did the Pickpocket acquire? This could range from nothing to everything, and anything in between.
2. How cleanly did the Pickpocket escape? This could range from a clean getaway to actually being captured by the Mark. There could be a variety of outcomes along this axis, including things like whether or not a Criminal Flag gets applied.
Skills and Abilities would generally improve one of these axes at the cost of worsening the other. The Pickpocket would be balancing how much of the goods he was trying to get with how cleanly he escapes. The Mark would be balancing how well he protects his goods against how well he identifies the Pickpocket.