The simple solution to this problem is solved by the system already in the game. In most settlements, stealing will be a crime. So stealing will give you the criminal flag. If you simply set it so that you cannot log out for the duration of the criminal/attacker flags(flags forced on you by your actions, not ones taken willingly like Assassin/Champion/Enforcer/etc.) then this problem disappears, doesn't it?
Admittedly, this makes being a pickpocket difficult or impossible... at least with PC's. However, since the idea of PC's being turned into NPC's(perhaps choosing a 'job' to do while they're away) couldn't we use this for something? The offline PC's would be given an obvious flag(maybe depending on their chosen 'job') so there would be no doubt about this. If PC thieves were allowed to pickpocket these 'offline' PC's(not for any of their items - perhaps money, or salvageable drops like you would get for killing an NPC monster?) this would make it a worthwhile, profitable thing. The 'offline' PC being pickpocketed wouldn't really mind, since they weren't losing anything themselves, and if they were able(because of their perception roll) to see the pickpocketER then they could perhaps be given a message on logging back in and the person who pickpocketed them could perhaps be labeled one of the character's enemies for a period of time, adding some more risk to the reward of being able to steal?
This is only one of the things that could be done with such a system of offline PC's still being present in the world... Perhaps, make some kind of benefit to doing this(a small - perhaps 5% - bonus to exp) to encourage people to do this. I'd have to think up a reasonable amount of risk... perhaps something like Age of Wushu's kidnapping system? Anyway, it's interesting.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I always thought the standard rule was: Normally, you can log out in 30 seconds. Taking damage from any source resets the logout timer. Certain flags put a cooldown on the timer, typically for minutes.
If the player goes linkdead, the character remains in play until all logout cooldowns and the timer expires, then poofs. (Providing no benefit to pulling the plug.)
If online, the player can wait out the timer, disconnecting from the server after the character disappears.
I always thought the standard rule was: Normally, you can log out in 30 seconds. Taking damage from any source resets the logout timer. Certain flags put a cooldown on the timer, typically for minutes.
If the player goes linkdead, the character remains in play until all logout cooldowns and the timer expires, then poofs. (Providing no benefit to pulling the plug.)
If online, the player can wait out the timer, disconnecting from the server after the character disappears.
That is a pretty standard way of handling things in most MMO's. Most MMO's don't let you steal from other PC's either, though. There are a lot of new and different approaches to things in PFO, so anything we say about is merely conjecture.
Goblin Squad Member
|
... the problem, of course is the "grab and log" manuver...I remain convinced that the ultimate solution to this problem is to embrace real persistence, where characters remain in the game world even when the player is logged off.
And I remain aware this is not a terribly popular position :)
The 2 huge problems with that approach (and I've actualy played a game that has it - StarQuest Online) are:
- OverCrowding. Even though PFO's map area SOUNDS really big....If you consider a total player population of 100K (not concurrent mind you, just those that have active accounts)...and the consider that it's more likely for players to log in some areas then others...maps are likely to be so littered with players that you can barely take a few steps without bumping into one. If nothing else, that creates alot of resource problems in communicating all that info to clients.
- "Hello is anybody there?" For a game who's driving goal is meaningfull human interaction, it creates a really bad atmosphere if the vast majority of player characters you are likely to run into have no humans behind the keyboard to interact with you.
So I definately think there does need to be some ability to log characters out of the world after a certain set amount of time. The key, I think is finding the right amount of time and the right conditions....it IS an area that's very prone to exploitation if not handled carefully. YMMV.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
OK so we are talking in agreement of non instantanious logouts in combat, but the topic still has to come in for out of combat as far as what is reasonable.
Out of combat instantaneous is still harmful in many scenarios.
You see group of player bandits approaching you, you aren't in combat yet, but you know the shot is coming within 5 seconds... Poof.
Out heading to harvest with a group... huge dangerous wandering monster prepares to charge you... Poof.
Other scenerio
bandit party sneaks out... see's a party of 6, notices one character stray from the herd to grab a resource node, quickly kills and loots the character. Player is dead they are now out of combat... characters party heads over Poof.
I think there's universal understanding that just not currently being in combat, does not eliminate all flaws from such, and as I've mentioned numerous times, the only scenerio in which having to afk for 5 minutes is a death sentance, is solo out in the wilderness, which is the exception rather than the rule, and a situation that death via supprises should be a very high possibility (of course, that possibility is greatly lessened when you can vanish at the first sign of danger and re-appear after it is safe). If you are with a party, they should be able to cover you.
Already covered a few times, but here's a recent one specifically in reply to you.
What MMOs do you have experience with, if any? Even themepark MMOs generally don't allow instant logouts, and certainly not while in combat. You simply put in a logout timer, and make it abort if you move, act, or are attacked.Criminal flags could prevent logouts until you get out of the hex(es) you're flagged in, and I already think that flag timers should only count logged-in time, so if you're flagged for 48 hours but spend the next 2 days logged out, you still have to serve your time under the flag when you come back.
A 30-60 second timer would cover the situations you mentioned. Moving or doing other things, or taking damage during the timer would abort it.
If you have some kind of short personal-crime flag (attacker, theft, etc.) you can not start the logout timer. The non-personal and long-term flags like 'heinous' or 'villain' would not prevent logouts. Any flag active on you upon logout goes 'on hold' while the character is offline. This means you have to serve your full time on the negative stuff and you don't accrue more bonuses on the good stuff.
When logging back in, if you are considered hostile to the hex you would appear in, you get bounced to your nearest bind point.
Aeioun,
I like the idea that you aren't revealed as soon as the first person with a successful perception roll sees you. It would be harder for the server to track everyone's perception separately, but it would be a lot more fun.
You know, I could see the "if one person can see you, then everyone should be able to see you" being applied here :/ I agree with you, it would be cool though.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Criminal flags could prevent logouts until you get out of the hex(es) you're flagged in, and I already think that flag timers should only count logged-in time, so if you're flagged for 48 hours but spend the next 2 days logged out, you still have to serve your time under the flag when you come back.
There's one huge problem with going by flags. That is an assist, in the area it isn't nearly as needed.
I see less issue within the boundries of a settlement, as I do in the wild, hence why none of my examples, took place within a city, within a city you most likely have guards, and a near instantaneous response time, on a harvesting operation, or working with a small party, the game of hide and seek trying to catch the person interfearing, should take more than a minute or 2.
Criminal
The character has broken the law of a settlement while inside its boundaries.
The Attacker flag lasts for one minute after combat ends.
at least in my view, running for 1 minute past combat in the wilderness, negates any and all options for trackers etc... to come after you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You know, I could see the "if one person can see you, then everyone should be able to see you" being applied here :/ I agree with you, it would be cool though.Aeioun,
I like the idea that you aren't revealed as soon as the first person with a successful perception roll sees you. It would be harder for the server to track everyone's perception separately, but it would be a lot more fun.
I also agree. I think we may be collapsing "being seen" with "identifying". It might be possible to have (in settlements certainly) the idea that perception will allow you to identify (single out) a character when you see a group of similar "blank" bodies as trying to be stealthy. In the wild, broadcasting the perception of a stealthy character if it's one-on-one it doesn't matter as much. It does matter when party meets party or party meets one. However, I think that in a sub-hex outdoor area, or whatever size the 'local' environment is, the number of character objects might be a small enough number to allow for tracking an individual's perceived (visible or identified) status. I would expect that settlements would generate high server demand regardless due to the shear number of possible characters in the settlement. The settlements may need to have sub-settlements (blocks).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Criminal flags could prevent logouts until you get out of the hex(es) you're flagged in, and I already think that flag timers should only count logged-in time, so if you're flagged for 48 hours but spend the next 2 days logged out, you still have to serve your time under the flag when you come back.There's one huge problem with going by flags. That is an assist, in the area it isn't nearly as needed.
I see less issue within the boundries of a settlement, as I do in the wild, hence why none of my examples, took place within a city, within a city you most likely have guards, and a near instantaneous response time, on a harvesting operation, or working with a small party, the game of hide and seek trying to catch the person interfearing, should take more than a minute or 2.Criminal
The character has broken the law of a settlement while inside its boundaries.
at least in my view, running for 1 minute past combat in the wilderness, negates any and all options for trackers etc... to come after you.The Attacker flag lasts for one minute after combat ends.
Criminal flagging is irrelevant outside of settlements, but there would still be some flag for messing with another player. As for trackers, that's what putting a bounty on them is for. Under my system, the bounty would remain until enough in-game time has elapsed, so logging out wouldn't dodge a bounty.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
at least in my view, running for 1 minute past combat in the wilderness, negates any and all options for trackers etc... to come after you.
The Attacker flag lasts for one minute after combat ends.
If the character gets the Attacker flag he gets an Aggressor buff that lasts for 24 hours that has no effect besides being a counter. Each time he gets Attacker increases the stack of Aggressor by one.
If the character gets a high enough stack of Aggressor, determined by his Reputation, he gets the status Murderer, which lasts 24 hours and does not disappear on death. It acts the same as Attacker, allowing repeat offenders to be hunted down for longer periods of time.
You're right, that could be annoying. It seems high reputationed characters can harass others longer than poor reputationed. I hope if a character has a very low rep it only takes a few like 2 or 3 aggressor buffs to flag the character murderer.
But in any case, if you don't die, you can't place a bounty. So it's time to call friends. Also I think you can track characters that are on your enemies list and every one that hurts you goes there.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
irrelevant outside of settlements, but there would still be some flag for messing with another player. As for trackers, that's what putting a bounty on them is for. Under my system, the bounty would remain until enough in-game time has elapsed, so logging out wouldn't dodge a bounty.
The key detail here however, is when people are looking for you. 5 minutes fresh after a crime is committed at 7pm, is significantly more dangerous than 5 hours, at 3am-6am, when everyone personally affected by your actions is asleep, and 48 hours later, heck they've probably forgotten what you've done even if you are still flagged, they are busy chasing after a more recent crime.
It also brings up another factor for bounty hunters etc... Will they get a notification exactly when a bounty target logs in and out... as well finding a character in a large world could be like hunting a needle in a haystack... but then when you add the variable that the needle might not even be present... that is where the annoyance comes in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Onishi,
I suspect bounty hunting will rely heavily on networking. Informants and spies in many locations will be very helpful.
It would be interesting if you could ask NPC's if they've seen your prey. Some sort of tracking system for when a player buys items or talks to NPC's - tracks their name, which can then be somehow accessed by the Bounty Hunter. Intimidation or Diplomacy could give bonuses to getting reluctant NPC's to say whether the prey has interacted recently.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Onishi,
I suspect bounty hunting will rely heavily on networking. Informants and spies in many locations will be very helpful.
It would be interesting if you could ask NPC's if they've seen your prey. Some sort of tracking system for when a player buys items or talks to NPC's - tracks their name, which can then be somehow accessed by the Bounty Hunter. Intimidation or Diplomacy could give bonuses to getting reluctant NPC's to say whether the prey has interacted recently.
If you're relying on a network of players keeping notes, I think it would fall flat. You could abstract some of it, just like name tags are an abstraction of unique facial features and reputation is an abstraction of nonverbal cues and pervasive gossip.
Most NPCs will be abstractions as well, rather than actual game objects, but perhaps the few visible ones like guards and barkeeps could give you a temporary bonus on your tracking skill. That would let you see where your target is on a map for a short time. It would almost assuredly run out before you get there, but once you get close enough for your own tracking to work, you'd use that to zero in on them.
If someone habitually pops up as a bounty target and you know where that player hangs out, you could probably skip the bribes and social engineering to get within tracking range. At that point, the criminal would need to change their haunts, if not their habits.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Given the size of the world, I envision plenty of bounty hunters needing to ask around for bad guy "X" before they get close enough to track. True, that's based on a name flag that shouldn't really be visible, but I'm guessing the bounty hunting system is going to provide a name rather than a description of the target's avatar. As you say, this is our abstraction of unique facial features, so using names as the means of garnering information seems the more realistic way to track your target than how most MMOs have worked tracking skills (click the button and follow the arrow).
I've written in another thread that I hope they find a more realistic way to run tracking. In most games, tracking is more like a pseudo-psychic ability than following a trail - you enable your tracking skill, click on the right name that's in range, and unerringly follow the arrow - whether there's any clue in sight or any information gathered from those around the area. I know that's likely easier to code, but following the hovering tracking arrow seems as theme park-ish as following the magic "your quest is this way" arrow. In some ways, I think it's worse, since in this case, you're getting knowledge about another character for PvP purposes. Unless you're in close proximity, I don't think it should really be that easy to pin down where someone is, especially if you didn't have at least a general idea of location to begin with (e.g. you knew that the target passed through recently and had some idea of direction).
Here's another take on my issue with using tracking to find bounty targets. If I'm hunting a particular species of animal, I only need to know it's print. I don't care which deer it is, just that it's a deer. But unless you know bad guy "X"s individual boot print, just tracking footprints shouldn't give you anything as accurate as most MMO tracking skills provide, unless you know which way they were headed, how long ago (to ignore newer or older prints), and all this happens over terrain that actually leaves readable signs.
As for seeing where your target is on a map...without GPS or criminal tracking tethers, that sort of thing really falls under the magical/psychic umbrella rather than a realistic simulation of tracking.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Given the size of the world...
Roughly 134 sq. miles, comparable to the city of Philadelphia.
DW Dev Blog(Note that contrary to the blog, I would say that land does not support 1.5 million, since that's ignoring all the outside land where the city's food and other resources come from.)
Unless you're in close proximity, I don't think it should really be that easy to pin down where someone is, especially if you didn't have at least a general idea of location to begin with (e.g. you knew that the target passed through recently and had some idea of direction).
There will always be an unrealistic UI abstraction of the clue one would really be following, because they're not going to model the effects of foot traffic any more than they're going to have absolutely unique facial (and other physical) features. Even if they did draw a trail of footprints, it wouldn't look realistic.
Pathfinder does tracking through the Survival skill, with certain bonuses achievable through other abilities (Rangers will be best at it, generally). If you're a wildshaping Druid or you have a suitable animal companion, the Scent feat can be of great help. Since the Survival skill has other uses, it might provide access to sub-skills to handle them specifically. In any case, the broken twigs and boot prints will be imaginary, and some sort of UI will give the player the information that the clues would have imparted to the character. This needn't be some giant neon arrow.
I was thinking that you could get a general region by looking at your map, with the indicator being more accurate with a greater Survival>Tracking skill. This represents all sorts of minor detail we can't possibly simulate, like knowing the land well enough to know where bandit haunts are likely to be, the gossip of (unseen) NPC informants, etc. Charming and bribing NPC help could give you a temporary bonus to that skill, and thus a better target area to look in, while the bonus lasts. If other players know where the individual is and tell you, that's great too.
Once you get close enough, maybe there would be an actual indicator graphic of some sort. "Close Enough" would again depend on your Survival>Tracking skill. It could be a cone drawn on the ground rather than an arrow, and your target's own Survival>Tracking would impose a penalty, since they'd know how to avoid leaving as much of a trail. Druids have trackless step and both Rangers and Druids can cast pass without trace which would keep them from leaving things like prints and scent, so those would provide such huge counter-tracking bonuses that you'd need your own magic to counter them. The distance at which the cone becomes available, the width of the cone, and how directly the centre of it points would provide three dimensions of accuracy to consider, so there's a lot more art to using it than an inerrant floating arrow.
Here's another take on my issue with using tracking to find bounty targets. If I'm hunting a particular species of animal, I only need to know it's print. I don't care which deer it is, just that it's a deer. But unless you know bad guy "X"s individual boot print, just tracking footprints shouldn't give you anything as accurate as most MMO tracking skills provide, unless you know which way they were headed, how long ago (to ignore newer or older prints), and all this happens over terrain that actually leaves readable signs.
There may be a computer system complex enough to model all of that realistically, but if so, we're living in it. Wondering if the Matrix is real is basically mental masturbation, though.
As I mentioned before, there's a lot of necessary abstraction due to the limits of the technology and dev time, but furthermore, I don't think the player should need to know real-world tracking in order to play a character that can do it in-game.
As for seeing where your target is on a map...without GPS or criminal tracking tethers, that sort of thing really falls under the magical/psychic umbrella rather than a realistic simulation of tracking.
'Psychic' = 'Magical', both on Earth and in D&D (I don't think PFRPG even has official psionics), so there's no need to list both. Everything from detect magic to antimagic field affects both equally. I think PFRPG may have skipped an official psionics system because everything it can do is already represented in the magic system (divination & enchantment, particularly).
Anyway, Golarion is a highly magical world, and the majority of the classes/roles have some access to magic. Monks have Ki and other [Su] (supernatural) abilities, and even Rogues have the option of learning a few spells at later levels. Of the core classes, only the Barbarian and Fighter are magic-dead. With that much of it around, I'm not terribly concerned with character abilities that beggar belief a bit.
Even in a magic-dead zone like the Mana Wastes, there are simply too many details to represent graphically and too many details of personal experience which the character should know but which the player has no access to; a little-recognized inverse of the character-knowledge/player-knowledge metagame issue.
We can't avoid abstraction (and a lot of it) if we want to represent any complex system in the game. Using a vague map highlight and a vague tracking cone is really no different than using a health bar. We don't have the art or dev time resources to draw and track each scratch & bruise, or to make 100 expressions of weariness that pile on until the point when a last blow gets through someone's defences and incapacitates them with an actual, serious wound. Just because we have graphics to aid our 'mind's eye', we needn't assume they represent the entirety of in-game reality. In a tabletop game we don't limit our imagination to what we can see on a miniature or character sketch, right?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As with most of our disagreements, it's a matter of degree. I prefer mechanics that are less obvious so that the gaming experience feels more realistic. It's that whole RP immersion thing. That what I would like isn't as likely to happen doesn't make me any less hopeful. After all, if we only suggest what we already know is most likely to be used, we never push the envelope.
Certainly, we will need abstraction, but to what degree? If tracking ends up being represented by the tracker receiving messages of simple direction ("Your quarry seems to be moving north"), my anti-neon arrow sentiment would likely be pacified. Pinning down your target would then require multiple tracking checks, especially as they keep moving. Of course, how far out on the horizon you can see would also come into play, especially if there will be sight enhancing spells or items.
As for a mechanic abstracting things like knowing where bandit hideouts would be, that's info I think bounty hunters needs to learn for themselves.
I'm not asking players to have to know how to track, but I would like a system that seems a bit more based on what tracking requires rather than relying on the usual "it's a magical world" trump card.
An aspect of the Bounty system that I see happening which I've not really seen a solution for yet.
Lets say I'm a crafter that just worked my way out of the noob skill zone, I've not established myself as a crafter yet and I just joined a settlement where I know absolutely no one.
So I'm out solo gathering a few things I come across and scouting the area for future harvesting operations. I get ambushed by a player who runs up, kills me and lots my husk. So the player got a couple of things I had and a few other items poofed. I respawn and head back to town, after thinking about it I decide to take a bounty out on the player.. But the problem is I'm not in a CC, and know no one I can assign the bounty to......? How do I proceed? Sure I can ask some other crafters, or just some other settlement members, but if for some reason I can't, how would I go about finding a bounty hunter using mechanics within the game?
If there were message boards in Inn's where bounty hunters advertise that would be nice. Just thinking of ways to make the process easier.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
A lot of questions and concerns here seem to be answered in the blog Screaming for Vengeance, section "Bounties and Death Curses."
Linked here for convenience. I found that by searching the blog page for word 'bounty'.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
if we only suggest what we already know is most likely to be used, we never push the envelope.
Haven't you seen Ryan use the phrase "Minimum Viable Product"? They are looking to make a game that works, not redefine the state of the art in graphics.
If tracking ends up being represented by the tracker receiving messages of simple direction ("Your quarry seems to be moving north"), my anti-neon arrow sentiment would likely be pacified.
If there were a graphic (only visible to the user) which indicated the direction of the target as somewhere within a 90-degree arc, that only narrows things down as much as saying north, east, south, or west. A 45-degree arc would provide the same information as adding NE, NW, SE, and SW to the cardinal four. Maybe using text would give you UO nostalgia, but there's no functional difference. A graphic is more friendly to poor vision or conditions where text is scrolling by too fast.
Come up with a tracking system.
As for a mechanic abstracting things like knowing where bandit hideouts would be, that's info I think bounty hunters needs to learn for themselves.
Should we also require FPS-style target shooting? Should we have some sort of peripheral for the player to punch which determines the strength of their character's swing? Why is it okay to ignore the player's physical abilities while ignoring the character's mental ones?
I'm not asking players to have to know how to track, but I would like a system that seems a bit more based on what tracking requires rather than relying on the usual "it's a magical world" trump card.
The trump card is that it's a game. Fantasy elements are window dressings that happen to be good for making it work.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Keovar,
"Haven't you seen Ryan use the phrase "Minimum Viable Product"? They are looking to make a game that works, not redefine the state of the art in graphics."
If I were on Ryan's staff, I'm certain I would only make suggestions that are viable, but I'm not. I can only assume that by asking me if I have seen that quote that you must think our posts should be restricted by those parameters. I haven't seen any forum use rules that stipulate or even imply that we must post only "minimum viable product" ideas. Rather, this board seems to be an open forum for us to provide GW with our thoughts on their blogs and game designs, as well as a place to discuss what we might like to see in the game, whether that always jives with what they have in mind or not.
As it stands, I have a sneaking suspicion that GW already has a pretty solid idea of how they plan to make the game, regardless of our input. However, by using this forum to banter about ideas, even far fetched ideas, we might actually provide them with the kernels of some really cool concepts that they hadn't thought of prior. Those thinking-out-of-the-box, ah-ha moments don't come from restricting yourself to only what seems minimally viable. So again, I see value in sharing ideas of all kinds, rather than curtailing discussion to only what we think they might want or eventually use.
As for how that discussion occurs, I try to make certain that my replies clarify my opinion/position rather than pick apart the other poster's suggestions. Again, we aren't employees of GW pitching for the winning idea - so I try to avoid the point-for-point (or quote-for-quote) replies. So given how much effort I make to not seem confrontational when discussing ideas, I'm uncertain why the tone of your replies to half my posts seem to be written as if you're trying to defeat an opponent in a debate, even down to criticizing the way I phrased a particular sentence.
Perhaps this stems from two very different views on the purpose of this forum or from what you consider logical/reasonable suggestions for a post. For myself, I read and post here for the sake of discussion. I'm not trying to win an argument. Hopefully I've made my thoughts on why I post what I do clear. I welcome yours.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Keovar,
I'm not sure how fun a game like that would be (we all like our escapism), but a forum (Paizo - "We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place") and a planet Earth that both follow your description sound pretty nifty to me.
Thanks for the Venus Project mention - made for some good reading.
Hobs
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Back on point - I hope to see spells, magic items, and racial size all having possible modifiers for stealth. These would seem to be easily handled buffs to the skill success "roll" - easier than things like a buff earned by line-of-sight modifiers against someone's perception skill.
As Keovar has pointed out, what may seem realistic may not be easily coded (too many variables to keep track of), but buffs or debuffs attached to something like height seems pretty easily handled.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'll add ideas that seem cool to me, but the programmers scoff at because they know how much of their precious coding time it would take up. MAkes no difference to me. I'm gonna keep throwing ideas out there whether they are easy to code or hard to code. Not my problem. Some of them might even be usable. If they are, great! If not, so what?
For tracking, if there is a way for items to be dropped, trackers could track animal droppings, or footprints (footprints are in almost every game now, and they fade, but they could fade faster for non-trackers and still be visible for some time to those using the tracking skill), broken branches or any other tell-tale signs of passage. Doesn't sound impossible to work in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As Keovar has pointed out, what may seem realistic may not be easily coded (too many variables to keep track of), but buffs or debuffs attached to something like height seems pretty easily handled.
That's not what I was saying. Formulae are what computers do best, so the number of variables included in a calculation aren't likely to be much of an issue.
The technology is mostly a limit in terms of graphics and how many individual objects the server has to track at any given time. There are also some limits imposed by the nature of the online medium; for example, if darkness were just a matter of client-program colouration and lighting, those could be hacked in ways the server can't detect. Devs can find ways to work around those limits, but dev time is the strictest resource limit of all, so they find abstractions that produce fun results that fit the context.The tabletop game has no limit in terms of 'graphics' unless perhaps you're trying to imagine Great Old Ones with more than 3 spatial dimensions. Object tracking becomes less a limit and more a matter of taste, with some groups tracking every spell component and most just assuming you're covered as long as you buy a component pouch now and then. Outright cheating is much less of an issue too, but calculations are where the limits of the medium show up.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...If there were a graphic (only visible to the user) which indicated the direction of the target as somewhere within a 90-degree arc, that only narrows things down as much as saying north, east, south, or west. A 45-degree arc would provide the same information as adding NE, NW, SE, and SW to the cardinal four.
Let's say the bounty hunter, upon taking a contract for the bounty, Gets a 90 degree direction finder in his compass if he is within ten hexes. That 90 degree arc or section narrows the closer he gets to his quarry and widens back to as much as 90 degrees as the distance grows. Say when he is in the same hex it has narrowed to 5 degrees.
If the bounty hunter is in a group, all members of the group get such a compass enhancement. Scatter out and locate the hunted faster by triangulation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...If there were a graphic (only visible to the user) which indicated the direction of the target as somewhere within a 90-degree arc, that only narrows things down as much as saying north, east, south, or west. A 45-degree arc would provide the same information as adding NE, NW, SE, and SW to the cardinal four.Let's say the bounty hunter, upon taking a contract for the bounty, Gets a 90 degree direction finder in his compass if he is within ten hexes. That 90 degree arc or section narrows the closer he gets to his quarry and widens back to as much as 90 degrees as the distance grows. Say when he is in the same hex it has narrowed to 5 degrees.
If the bounty hunter is in a group, all members of the group get such a compass enhancement. Scatter out and locate the hunted faster by triangulation.
I was thinking the arc's range, width, and accuracy (if the center of the arc is always spot on, it may as well be an arrow) would depend on Survival>tracking skill, modified by bonuses like getting good NPC tips, or penalties like the target's own Survival skill (used as counter-tracking). Once the distance is down to visual range, the contest changes to Stealth vs. Perception, so you couldn't use the tracking arc to render Stealth useless.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This is where the friction awaits: What happens when the perpetrator is not stealthing, only standing amid a crowd of identical twins?
How should the hunter know unerringly which is which.
Could we try and see if we can find a good simple way to do so without necessitating nametags? I ask this boon simply because i think the game would be ever so much better if we only saw the nametags of those we have previously interacted with.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This is where the friction awaits: What happens when the perpetrator is not stealthing, only standing amid a crowd of identical twins?
How should the hunter know unerringly which is which.
Could we try and see if we can find a good simple way to do so without necessitating nametags? I ask this boon simply because i think the game would be ever so much better if we only saw the nametags of those we have previously interacted with.
If every face were unique, then there would be no need for naming characters at all. You could of course claim whatever name you like, but the physical looks could be generated from a unique random seed, and that seed would also be the character's 'name' as far as the server is concerned. There are, however, going to be a limited number of combinations of features, and many combinations will be too weird or ugly for many to want. Name plates cover the minor details that won't be represented in the graphics.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For sure in life I didn't pick this mug, but I have grown used to its homely features. Perhaps randomly generated features should be a part of the mix, even though every other game's character creation routine flatters us to pretend we can pick and choose what our character will look like.
Still, though I walked the streets of the City, I would know few among the other walkers there. It isn't that rare that I will mistake a look alike for someone I knew.
I should think we should not have names displayed unless we are acquainted.
So how is the hunter to best know he has found the right person for his Bounty? Should that nefarious one among many be outlined? Pointed to? Or must we reconcile to having these absurd nametags floating over us, where a crowd of us makes the nametags a completely unreadable jumble anyway?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Keovar,
I'm not sure how fun a game like that would be (we all like our escapism), but a forum (Paizo - "We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place") and a planet Earth that both follow your description sound pretty nifty to me.
Thanks for the Venus Project mention - made for some good reading.
Hobs
A fan of the ideas in the Venus Project, but struggle to see humanity adapting to it any time soon.
I think there is plenty of room for games without wars. Definitely a design challenge, and probably more of a niche market. But I could definitely imagine myself playing a purely cooperative game and have much more fun than I would having to worry about getting stabbed in the back and robbed of my possessions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This is where the friction awaits: What happens when the perpetrator is not stealthing, only standing amid a crowd of identical twins?
How should the hunter know unerringly which is which.
Could we try and see if we can find a good simple way to do so without necessitating nametags? I ask this boon simply because i think the game would be ever so much better if we only saw the nametags of those we have previously interacted with.
I think nametags should be available. But would not be opposed to hiding them under the need to target and right-click a portrait for a context menu. Perhaps you even necessitate a close range for it, so that you have to be within close range. A sneak in an alley can definitely identify someone more easily than a sniper over on yonder hill.
A cool way to handle Pick Pocketing.
1st- Stealth to target and have opposed perception(victim)/stealth(thief) check.
2nd- If stealth is successful. The thief is completely invisible and can initiate pick pickpocket via another perception/PP check.
3rd- If Pick Pocket is successful, the thief will get random loot from target. The better your PP skill, then better loot chance. With a note saying, "You've been robbed" in victims bags that victim will see the next time he checks inventory.
4th- If any of these checks fail, have PVP flag on both characters, the thief can be seen, and thief looses reputation. This would be like catching in the act.
5th- Thief will have to run, fight, or plead for life. The fun part.
This system will give all parties involved a chance of success. With thief risking more via possible reputation loss.
Personally I would like to leave my name in the note left in the bag. "You have been robbed by the Gray Mouser!" Give my thievery a little notoriety.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This system will give all parties involved a chance of success. With thief risking more via possible reputation loss.
Problem is reputation loss has been reduced to being effectively meaningless in order to encourage more PvP.
At this stage of the game you are saving XP for weeks to train your next levels and you can regain reputation in a few days to a week so rep loss, regardless of what people may say, is just a minor inconvenience that means you need a small holding to store your loot until you are allowed back near a bank.
Your right I will spend 200 dollars for a small holding for storage, no inconvenience there I suppose. Reputation is just fine and will work even better when feuds can be declared and even more PvP will be had. As far as pick pocketing goes it would be awesome to have another form of activity that impacts reputation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Your right I will spend 200 dollars for a small holding for storage, no inconvenience there I suppose. Reputation is just fine and will work even better when feuds can be declared and even more PvP will be had. As far as pick pocketing goes it would be awesome to have another form of activity that impacts reputation.
Any regular holding your company has laid down has a personal vault for you, and no guards to get in the way. You don't have to buy a smallholding.