Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the whole idea of theft is that you get away with it...richer. I happen to know many instances in which I think people steal from me legally, and unfortunately I have no recourse but to sit by and watch.
We will just have to agree to disagree...and if "like reality" is the only way thievery can be added in game...for once, I have to agree with the naysayers that in my opinion (which is admittedly worth nada) it is not worth the effort to implement.
EDIT: @Bluddwolf, on the otherhand, I have been envisioning this as a PvP attack...and basing my arguments on philosophic rules about what I envision as limits of fun PvP encounters. If pickpocketing was based instead upon assassination mechanics, I could agree with almost everything you have asked for...but the mechanics for and repercussion to the thief, win, loose, or draw, would need to be comparable to that of an assassin.
(Although I could see theft being natively chaotic, versus assassinations evil)
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Goblin Squad Member
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.... That and also the fact that not all PVP is simply combat.
I think that this is the crux of the matter. Will GW spend resources for EE on PvP that is not combat? (I believe the answer is yes, but that may not be true.) If so, will they spend resources developing the mechanisms for stealing in its multivariate forms? Or even some forms? Before Open Enrollment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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i see stealing/pickpockets/sleight of hand as flavour in a game that adds depth to characters (rogues) and adds a PvP mechanic that is not completely 'kill the enemy' oriented. I'm more than happy to have only a minuscule chance to actually get away completely undetected, but I think it should be there. The other large chunk of time, it creates content by having the thief detected while either succeeding or failing and adds a flag to the thief. Both scenarios add flavour to the game.
It's a dangerous step to issue a blanket statement of 'theft is no fun for anyone but the thief'. Yes, it can be incredibly frustrating and annoying to the victim, but so are a lot of other character mechanics that are pretty much staples of the fantasy genre. For example, in a PvP scenario, giant bears summoned by druids or zombie hordes summoned by necromancers are not much fun for the enemy either. I could get facetious and also say that AoE attacks and spell like effect of which have no save are also not fun. If we go and remove these 'not fun for everyone' elements of PvP, we're going to really restrict the game to two characters just slugging it out while standing toe to toe.
If people are afraid that theft could become a griefing tool, perhaps add a mechanic whereby the thief must 'watch' the victim for an amount of time (10 seconds?) prior to the theft, and then have a large cooldown on the skill (30 minutes?). This allows a victim to break LoS either on purpose or via luck and ruin the theft skill, and it puts in a long cooldown that would prevent griefing.
There is little more i can add to this thread to express my feelings that pickpockets is a valued mechanic for a game. All I ask is that people objectively look at the character concept of a rogue and see that stealth is one of its main drawcards. They are a class that is supposed to be able to do things undetected. They cannot fight as well as warriors, cannot innately cast spells, cannot wear heavy armor or heal themselves, cannot hug trees and do woodland type things as effectively as rangers or druids...the list goes on. They are the stealth class, and theft is one of the time honoured attributes of the class. If we ignore this skill tree, the rogue will be pretty much forced to go down the alpha strike 'assassin' archetype path, just like most other MMOs seemingly have down the last decade.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To say that there is no defense against a pickpocket is actually wrong on several counts.
First, you have your perception roll, which will counter the theif's chance of getting away with stealing from you undetected. That perception roll is in no way different from an armor class check vs. taking damage. Otherwise, you could claim that you have no defense against someone dealing damage to you either, unless you have active defense abilities.
Secondly, the issue of where items can be stored, should make it more or less difficult to steal. Well we will have a crafting system, and an enchanting system. There could easily be pouches that have a - # vs. Pickpocketing that could help counter the theft. That modifier could be from construction (master work) or from enchantment "Pouch of Anti Pick Pocketing -3".
Thirdly, as another suggested, pick pocketing should only apply to waht is in the pocket / purse of and individual. This is likley only coins and perhaps gem stones. The amount should be small, what would fit in the palm, as one put it.
The idea that some system be used to reward the thief, but not harm the victim is quite honestly stunning to me!! That is the most "carebearish" idea I might ever have heard, and I don't use the carebear word very often. If the loss of a few coins or gems is going to ruin your whole gaming day.... MMOs with even small amounts of PVP are not for you I'm afraid.
As I stated earlier, this is a form of PVP and therfore should be included. There should be non combat PVP, and it should play an important role.
Pick Pocketing
Burglary
Smuggling
Espionage
Market Manipulation (Trade Wars)
Banditry (Intimidation through use of SAD)
Are all forms of non combat or semi non combat PVP. If most or all of these could find their way into PFO, what a vibrant "living and breathing" world PFO will be. These will give the River Kingdoms their "seedier" side, without turning to outright violence and or evil activities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They are the stealth class, and theft is one of the time honoured attributes of the class. If we ignore this skill tree, the rogue will be pretty much forced to go down the alpha strike 'assassin' archetype path, just like most other MMOs seemingly have down the last decade.
An excellent point. Basically, if the rogue types do not have non violent means to satisfy our greed, those that are the supposed bastions of law and order will do nothing more than turn us into "Alex Delarge".
Would you rather have petty thieves (CN), or sociopathic killers (CE) inside and outside of your gates?
This is not an exaggeration, I could see a very EvE-esque suicide gank squad system develope if there are no non violent means for theft.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Thief steals = Fun for thief, unfun for victim
Thief gets norhing, but is not detected = Fun for thief, not fun for attempted victim
Thief steals, but is detected = Fun for thief, roughly fun as being attacked directly for victim
Thief gets nothing and is detected = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victim
Thief gets caught and kills victim, murder flagged = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victim
Thief gets caught and is killed by victim = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victimNowhere is being stolen from any more fun than being attacked directly. If there isn't a significant chance of getting away with it (an option which results in less fun than open PvP), then nobody will steal and the effort put into implementing a theft system will be wasted, making other features worse by omission.
I think 'This is less fun than getting ganked' is a clear sign that it doesn't deserve...
Your agrument is built on a false premise that every result is fun for the thief, and nothing is fun for the potential victim of the thief.
For example, you have the situation where the thief gets caught and is killed, as still being fun for the thief but a nuisance for the victim.
That is an unlikely point of view to be held by most, perhaps 90% of players. Most would declare victory over the thieving bastard and tell all of his or her friends about it.
Likewise, you have the thief that gets noting and does not get caught, as being fun. Again, 90% of the thieves will look at that as a waste of time, and not fun, as you predict.
As a potential victim of theft, I would see it as fun, even if I have something stolen from me. The reason is, it adds to the flavor and realism of the world. If I want a world where my character will be safe from death and theft, I'd go to Hello Kitty Online.
'As fun as being attacked' is the baseline that I'm using to compare to. I think that being attacked will typically be fun, even if I have no chance of winning the fight. I base that off of my previous MMO open PvP experience, where escaping from characters that totally outclassed mine was fun.
It's all fun for the thief because I'm offering the best-case scenario where the thief is having fun trying to steal. If it isn't fun to try to steal, why are we talking about it?
To say that there is no defense against a pickpocket is actually wrong on several counts.First, you have your perception roll, which will counter the theif's chance of getting away with stealing from you undetected. That perception roll is in no way different from an armor class check vs. taking damage. Otherwise, you could claim that you have no defense against someone dealing damage to you either, unless you have active defense abilities.
I'm quite happy with noting that you have basically no way to prevent someone doing HP damage to you. However, 'doing damage' is not an end condition to the combat. If you want to have a system where a thief can gradually and blatantly take an item, or perhaps steal or destroy a consumable or unthreaded equipment as part of open combat, that's a different thing to discuss.
The 'pickpocket' that is an attack (granting the appropriate flags and everything associated with the attack) could still be useful- a fast character runs in, grabs something, and runs away from a slower or distracted one. It's just not the cutpurse model that everyone seems to want.
Taking an item as a combat ability might even be a way to make it fun for the victim. My intrinsic objection no longer applies, and I think it can be implemented in such a way that it doesn't dominate as a strategy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Remembering back to the thieve's playground that was the Britain bank in Ultima Online before the Trammel/Felucca split, I agree that trying anything like thievery in starter towns should be nearly too difficult to risk. Starter town guards are going to be far more godlike than those NPCs guarding your settlement, which means better perception, better response times, and more lethal justice.
Let's throw into the mix, just for discussion, how else you might raise the stakes for the thief:
Everybody is Watching
As I've suggested earlier, everyone in the vicinity, including NPC's, have a perception check against the thief's actions. Any of these can raise the criminal flag on the thief if they spot his/her actions. Now it's open season - run, thief, run.
Compensation
Once killed (which would likely happen often), besides being able to retrieve the stolen item, the victim of the theft could get looting rights of a nonthreaded item just like any other PvP victor. Perhaps all those who helped "capture" the thief would. Sure, you could say that thieves will then simply walk around with nothing unthreaded on their person, but if stealing in starter towns isn't allowed, it would be pretty dangerous to wander the wilderness from one settlement to another without all those consumable goodies you'll likely need to stay alive.
Doing Time
Perhaps one of the more NPC style buildings in any settlement might be a jail cell. If you're killed trying to steal in a settlement, the NPC guards haul you off to the slammer (you respawn there after death) for a set period. During that time, anyone can wander by, see your true name and what you look like for future reference. You're character is safely imprisoned (safe from wandering monsters and such), so even if you log off to wait out your jail time, your thief could still be logged in for public viewing. If you don't like this, perhaps there's a "New Inmates" board that, when clicked, brings up your character's avatar and name. Once your time is up, you're booted out of the settlement. You might even be flagged a permanent enemy of the settlement unless you stealth in, use a disguise to get past the guards who know your face, or the settlement owners take pity on you and remove the flag.
Hot Goods
A stolen item could have a marker placed on it that keeps NPCs or the Auction House attendants from accepting it. This would increase the need for a player-to-player black market. In previous games, I've seen nefarious sorts try to RP blackmarkets, but since there was nothing marking goods as stolen (and thereby unsellable through the usual channels) it was all just role-played.
Extended Flag Time
The current criminal flag marks you for 10 minutes (or until killed) for potentially breaking a settlement law, even if you didn't knowingly mean to (the way laws are going to be written and how visitors will be educated about all of a settlements laws is still pretty murky). But with our sneaky little thief, he meant to do wrong, and with a trail of people all shouting "Thief!" as they run after him, people will know about it. Could the criminal flag be extended, making the thief vulnerable to attack for a longer period? I could see it being in effect (the duration timer doesn't even start running) until he exits the hex in which the theft was spotted.
I'm not suggestion all these, just tossing out possibilities. People might ask, with such a deck stacked against them, who would ever play a thief? I guarantee, no matter how difficult you make thieving, if you allow it, people will try it.
Now, how about some alternatives for the thief?
1. Could thieving be allowed on NPCs? Certainly not as challenging as real players, but NPCs won't complain to a GM about their stolen potion bottle after the fact.
2. Could you have a "Victim" flag? That is, just like in games where you can turn on your PvP flag to say "Hey, I'll fight," could you have one that allows for players who think thievery adds flavor to toggle their "Hey, try me," flag?
A variation of this would be to allow players to target one of their own items to be the possible target of a theft. Drop any item you wish into the "theft slot" of your inventory. Those who put nothing there can still be targeted and run all the risks for the thief, but he comes up empty-handed, even if he makes a successful skill check...the pocket was empty. As silly as some people may think that sounds, you would be surprised how many role-players would drop something worthwhile in that "theft slot" just to generate more interaction, especially if they get to choose what the item is. In fact, you would have players who enjoy PvP and would have something worthwhile "dangling" simply to lure a thief into trying to steal just so they get to whack him. If a "theft slot" mechanic was used, I would allow the thief a chance (perception roll) to determine whether the slot had anything in it and what it was.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs
At first read, your suggestions seem to be more punitive than just using the suicide - gank scenario I mentioned earlier.
Pick Pocketing can not take threaded items; It can not take items that can not be "palmed"; it can not take items that are located on your person where it would be impossible for you not to notice the attempt.
What can be stolen is what the person has in their pocket. Not more than a handful of coins or gems if they have them. A thief might be able to slip a dagger from its sheath, but not an item much larger than that.; arrows from a quiver, perhaps a wand kept in a belt compartment, etc.
A thief that fails an attempt is already flagged, with attacker and thief flag. That already opens them up for attack by any who care to get involved.
A thief that succeeds in pick pocketing avoids detection, that means no flag and it is why this is a stealth skill.
A system as I describe has a low return for a moderate risk on average. The thief is risking even death just at the chance of getting a handful of gems or perhaps and unthreaded dagger, but they are in it for the thrill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everybody is Watching
As I've suggested earlier, everyone in the vicinity, including NPC's, have a perception check against the thief's actions. Any of these can raise the criminal flag on the thief if they spot his/her actions. Now it's open season - run, thief, run.
A logical and fair factor, of course logically thiefs should be smart enough to strike just as someone is around a blind corner etc...
CompensationOnce killed (which would likely happen often), besides being able to retrieve the stolen item, the victim of the theft could get looting rights of a nonthreaded item just like any other PvP victor. Perhaps all those who helped "capture" the thief would. Sure, you could say that thieves will then simply walk around with nothing unthreaded on their person, but if stealing in starter towns isn't allowed, it would be pretty dangerous to wander the wilderness from one settlement to another without all those consumable goodies you'll likely need to stay alive.
well every task can be made to have a certain amount of gear dependency, I would disagree that someone can't move around with bare minimum to thread, not to mention have ways to store things closer, accomplices to drop things off to at the destination etc... but making theft itself gear dependant as well could solve that issue
Doing Time
Perhaps one of the more NPC style buildings in any settlement might be a jail cell. If you're killed trying to steal in a settlement, the NPC guards haul you off to the slammer (you respawn there after death) for a set period. During that time, anyone can wander by, see your true name and what you look like for future reference. You're character is safely imprisoned (safe from wandering monsters and such), so even if you log off to wait out your jail time, your thief could still be logged in for public viewing. If you don't like this, perhaps there's a "New Inmates" board that, when clicked, brings up your character's avatar and name. Once...
Just no... jail time is a terrible idea for any scenario. It's been suggested in non-lethal PK etc... and it always has the same flaws to it. It just moves jailable offenses to throwaway alts, After all people are going to want to actually play the game, and thus they will be playing on a different character or account, it isn't a deterrent to people playing these things undesirably, it just moves it into a worse form.
In the end all of this is making theft seem like the crime itself is worse than PK, that isn't the issue at all, the issue is people don't like feeling helpless against it. IE being forced to train up skills that make no sense for a character class, as the only option to protect your goods from something you may not even see. Setting up a large caravan, traveling in a group for safety is what should be the case for treks' out to the wilderness, having to do the same thing to buy a drink at the tavern on the other hand, is just stupid level of inconvenience.
as far as theft from NPCs, that sounds like a ridiculous form of a faucet, IE adding things into the world that shouldn't be created that easily.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...There's a word for that in MMO's, it's called duping, and it is generally in the from of a discovered and abused glitch that destroys a games economy bad enough to require a full out rollback. Turning any form of PVP into a faucet to create items is a ridiculously bad idea, and requires the items that can be duplicated to be of such insignificant value and/or the frequency of making a "theft" attempt to be so scarce, that it is a waste of resources to implement..
I'm not buying into that in this context. Crying 'dupe' is no better than an excuse to stop thinking. I am thinking the number of times you can pickpocket per game day should be limited to prevensomeone allowing a nice item to be pickpocketed over and over which would indeed break the economy.
It looks painfully obvious that if an item that is stolen is duplicated you are inreasing the number of that thing in the world and worsening the glut of goods depressing markets and inflating oversupply.
Yet in the PFO context every time a player dies they lose everything unthreaded. If someone loots the corpse maybe one or two items might be preserved, but the bulk of inventory will be lost.
Successful pickpockets should not be so common as player deaths. That should be a relatively rare event compared with pc death.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yet in the PFO context every time a player dies they lose everything unthreaded. If someone loots the corpse maybe one or two items might be preserved, but the bulk of inventory will be lost.Successful pickpockets should not be so common as player deaths. That should be a relatively rare event compared with pc death.
Players only lose items if the die and are unable to get back to the location where they died before another player loots their corpse.
Almost every failed pickpocket attempt will result in a PC death- either the pickpocket or the attempted victim. It will also be the only time that the career pickpocket dies; if successful pickpockets are significantly more rare to the pickpocket than deaths, why is he picking pockets rather than gathering ore or fighting monsters? For that matter, who would study pickpocketing if they can get a higher rate of return off of looting corpses?
Pickpocketing as an item faucet breaks the economy; pickpocketing which is reduced to the equivalent of the PnP "Make another perception check, DC 35, or you don't have arrows anymore" isn't fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pickpocketing need not break the economy. Pickpocketing and burglary would add significantly to the game experience for those playing thieves, and they will be missed if disallowed.
The problem with pickpocketing and burglery is confined to how unfun it is for (probably) most players to lose gear without being able to prevent it.
If there is a way to avoid that unpleasentness using elements of item duplication on unthreaded inventory without breaking the economy, such as regulating the skill with an extended cool-down, why not provide it as an optional playstyle in an environment that provides for PvP? Murder is not nicer than theft.
if successful pickpockets are significantly more rare to the pickpocket than deaths, why is he picking pockets rather than gathering ore or fighting monsters? For that matter, who would study pickpocketing if they can get a higher rate of return off of looting corpses?
Pickpocketing as an item faucet breaks the economy; pickpocketing which is reduced to the equivalent of the PnP "Make another perception check, DC 35, or you don't have arrows anymore" isn't fun.
I think your right, most people who may train in pickpocketing, assuming that the skill isn't bound with other skills on a single branch, might try it a time or two, but ultimately will find the hassle too much for the reward and go back to gathering, PvP or even escalations in order to get coin.
As to your second point, I can't see where your getting that a few cheap non threaded items moving from 1 persons inventory to the inventory of another will somehow break the ecomomy. Can you expand on how a tier 1 reaping sickle that I pickpocketed from that Mage is going to break the economy?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yet in the PFO context every time a player dies they lose everything unthreaded. If someone loots the corpse maybe one or two items might be preserved, but the bulk of inventory will be lost.
Successful pickpockets should not be so common as player deaths. That should be a relatively rare event compared with pc death.
You are forgetting, the entire bulk of the game is some part of the manufacturing chain. You are acting like pickpocket duplication and player death are the only 2 factors. Forgetting the every time someone doing something that dosn't result in death, doing some part of gathering resources, which are constantly being churned into items. The key is the current mechanisms are more or less ensured to be slightly at risk of too much surviving rather than too little being made.
Why would pickpocketing be any rarer than the bare minimum time, and why wouldn't the use of it be the highest value that could possibly be duplicated in the scenario you described. When you remove the detrimental effects, you kill any possible flavor portion of the PVP. Pickpocketing will be primarily done by someone with pockets full of whatever the most valuable item to duplicate would be. Pickpockets would all be staged by players positioning themselves for the highest chance of being pickpocketed. Unless they ensure that pickpocketing is just so worthless that it is never worth it, in which case, why bother implimenting it at all?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Onishi,
I toss out ideas...possibilities. Some will stick and some won't. But if we can avoid descriptors like "stupid" and "ridiculous", we would have a better chance of fostering the kind of positive environment within which we can all brainstorm. After all, the ideas you dislike may be the same ones that catalyzes an "Ah ha!" moment for another poster and leads to a truly inspirational idea from which we can all benefit.
Bluddwulf,
Unfortunately, it seems that some players hate/fear thieves so much that if they're allowed at all, they'll need to be severely gimped to pacify those who hate/fear them. Personally, I like the "theft slot" idea and would use it liberally, but I like allowing for all types of player interaction. Back in UO, many RP guilds used a yellow bag for a similar purpose - it contained the items you wanted to make available for looting if killed. That way, not only did the looter get something for their victory, but it was a good way to have a story-arc item trade hands in combat. A "theft slot" could allow for the same thing here - stealable items of your choice made available for thieving attempts.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Oh - I really quite like the idea of an 'optional thievery pocket'; it neatly solves the non-fun aspect by making it much more consensual. I question whether enough 'victims' would use it to make thievery fun, and whether thievery remains fun at all when you know you are unlikely to get anything of significant value.
I'd also entertain the idea of non-consensual thievery with a strong limit on what can be stolen. Something like "coin only, and capped at 0.1% of characters net worth, representing beer money on hand." This means the thieves can have their fun without the loss condition for the victim becoming actually annoying.
If you look at it this way, there is only one way for the thief to be the clear winner. So the victim "not having fun" isn't really a big concern if they consider the risk vs reward that the thief must deal with.
Humans are rather famously not-rational.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Onishi,
I toss out ideas...possibilities. Some will stick and some won't. But if we can avoid descriptors like "stupid" and "ridiculous", we would have a better chance of fostering the kind of positive environment within which we can all brainstorm. After all, the ideas you dislike may be the same ones that catalyzes an "Ah ha!" moment for another poster and leads to a truly inspirational idea from which we can all benefit.
My apologies, I did not intend for what I said to be interpreted that way, nor did I even directly attach those descriptors to the ideas themselves. Rather to the level of the consequences that may come from them.
I never intended to say the ideas themselves are bad in spirit, or even bad on the surface but that the consequences that I believe would inevitably follow them, are particularly extreme.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you look at it this way, there is only one way for the thief to be the clear winner. So the victim "not having fun" isn't really a big concern if they consider the risk vs reward that the thief must deal with.Humans are rather famously not-rational.
Wait...how did I miss the fact that there is a forum member named "Aunt Tony" who's been around since 2011?!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wait...how did I miss the fact that there is a forum member named "Aunt Tony" who's been around since 2011?!!If you look at it this way, there is only one way for the thief to be the clear winner. So the victim "not having fun" isn't really a big concern if they consider the risk vs reward that the thief must deal with.Humans are rather famously not-rational.
I assure you - not the same person as I am.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will Cooper,
I have a feeling only two player types would use it...role-players and people who like to PvP (and are hoping to catch the thief in the act...and whack them).
Are there going to be enough role-players around to make it worth the skill training for the thief - possibly. If I were to make a thief, I would try to limit my stealing to role-players, since they would likely be the ones who would use such a "theft slot" and might be more tolerant of the thief as a role in the game and a means to increase all forms of interaction.
If I were to make a thief, I would try to limit my stealing to role-players, since they would likely be the ones who would use such a "theft slot" and might be more tolerant of the thief as a role in the game and a means to increase all forms of interaction.
This got me to thinking, what if pick pocketing we're to be limited to coin only. If indeed we are to be carrying around all the gold we possess in our packs, couldn't the skill just take a % based on how much total coin the character has, their level and the skill of the thief? It could be a fairly small portion of the players total coin so that it wouldn't cripple them. An allowance could be made for lower level characters, say the equivalent of level 5 and below would have a smaller portion taken from them.
I wonder if this would help the situation? I won't be PP'ing people even if I have the skill, unless there is a purpose behind it, but the way I look at it, it's not so much what you get rather its the success of the act and the way it's done that I would find appealing. So only getting coin would be fine with me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This got me to thinking, what if pick pocketing we're to be limited to coin only. If indeed we are to be carrying around all the gold we possess in our packs, couldn't the skill just take a % based on how much total coin the character has, their level and the skill of the thief? It could be a fairly small portion of the players total coin so that it wouldn't cripple them. An allowance could be made for lower level characters, say the equivalent of level 5 and below would have a smaller portion taken from them.I wonder if this would help the situation? I won't be PP'ing people even if I have the skill, unless there is a purpose behind it, but the way I look at it, it's not so much what you get rather its the success of the act and the way it's done that I would find appealing. So only getting coin would be fine with me.
If I recall coin isn't intended to be physical or loot-able, Every mention of it pretty much implied coin as in all currently announced system, safe from loss.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I were to make a thief, I would try to limit my stealing to role-players, since they would likely be the ones who would use such a "theft slot" and might be more tolerant of the thief as a role in the game and a means to increase all forms of interaction.This got me to thinking, what if pick pocketing we're to be limited to coin only. If indeed we are to be carrying around all the gold we possess in our packs, couldn't the skill just take a % based on how much total coin the character has, their level and the skill of the thief? It could be a fairly small portion of the players total coin so that it wouldn't cripple them. An allowance could be made for lower level characters, say the equivalent of level 5 and below would have a smaller portion taken from them.
I wonder if this would help the situation? I won't be PP'ing people even if I have the skill, unless there is a purpose behind it, but the way I look at it, it's not so much what you get rather its the success of the act and the way it's done that I would find appealing. So only getting coin would be fine with me.
The problem with this is that most of the problems people have with a pickpocketing system is that there are only two scenarios for the person being pickpocketed. a) The pickpocket succeeds and their item is gone. They maybe get a notification of it after the thief has had time to escape and can do nothing about it. b) the pickpocket fails at the task he is optimized for, and it turns into a normal fight. The complaint is that the targetted player only has the ability to actively oppose the attempt once it's already failed. It's not about what's being stolen, it's about *how*.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is our concern. We'd like to include a pickpocketing system, but it's the kind of thing that's hard to make fun for the target, even on a detection.
There are plans for item buffs for weapons and armours, why not for containers?
These could be anything from an arcane mark effect that puts a big glowing rune on the thief, an alarm effect that adds a sound beacon, hold person to freeze the thief in place, to various energy damage spells. Various combinations of these effects could be added to bags which would trigger when someone other than the owner tries to open the container. Some wards might remain on the container until triggered, while others could be triggered multiple times within a 24 hour (real-time) period. These wards could be purchased and applied by anyone, not just spellcasters.
As to more permanent protection, keyed or combination lockboxes with conventional traps could work.
Locks, traps, and even magical wards are things rogues could try to disarm if they had the time, space, and visibility to work on them, but none of that really works on a target that moves around, and even if someone isn't travelling anywhere, they're still moving a bit as they shift their weight and such.
Extradimensional storage like a bag of holding variant which will allow access to contents for the owner, but otherwise act as a bag of devouring ready to bite the hand off a pickpocket, could be fun too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just can't see how any pickpocketing system could be fun for anyone other than the pickpocket. For everyone else it seems to range from a minor nuisance to rage-inducing. It's one of those asymmetric systems where only one side gets to do anything and the other side only (maybe!) gets to react after the fact, which is just bad gameplay for the victim - especially since unlike a run-in with a bandit, there's no safe haven from a pickpocket, so the victim has no control over when they are vulnerable.
There are plans for item buffs for weapons and armours, why not for containers? [many examples snipped
I think that would simply lead to everyone having those protections and ultimately nobody would be a pickpocket because it would be too dangerous. While I'd certainly be content with the eventual outcome, that seems like a lot of wasted development effort to create a system that nobody would use in the long run, when we could get to the same result by not having pickpocketing in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just can't see how any pickpocketing system could be fun for anyone other than the pickpocket. For everyone else it seems to range from a minor nuisance to rage-inducing. It's one of those asymmetric systems where only one side gets to do anything and the other side only (maybe!) gets to react after the fact, which is just bad gameplay for the victim - especially since unlike a run-in with a bandit, there's no safe haven from a pickpocket, so the victim has no control over when they are vulnerable.
100% agree. Exactly what I was trying to resolve with my suggestion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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100% agree. Exactly what I was trying to resolve with my suggestion.I just can't see how any pickpocketing system could be fun for anyone other than the pickpocket. For everyone else it seems to range from a minor nuisance to rage-inducing. It's one of those asymmetric systems where only one side gets to do anything and the other side only (maybe!) gets to react after the fact, which is just bad gameplay for the victim - especially since unlike a run-in with a bandit, there's no safe haven from a pickpocket, so the victim has no control over when they are vulnerable.
If I'm reading your suggestion right, it still relies on the victim reacting after the theft has occured. Possibly after the thief has already escaped. I'm not sure how that resolves the issues Tuoweit identified.
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Goblin Squad Member
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100% agree. Exactly what I was trying to resolve with my suggestion.
Even if the thief is detected every time, what about the noncombatant (i.e. the most likely, lowest-risk target for a pickpocket)? They simply don't have the option of forcefully reacquiring their goods. Should they be required to hire a guard 100% of the time, to wander around with them in town simply to guard against pickpockets?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that would simply lead to everyone having those protections and ultimately nobody would be a pickpocket because it would be too dangerous.
Any system like this should generally protect newbies, and generally make vets more susceptible. Definitely not the other way around. [Edit for clarity: I am in total agreement with Tuoweit's observation.]
So a good thief will have to have both a high slight of hand, but also invest in evasion/stealth skills tree. This, hopefully requires enough investment to be good that they should not also be dps masters.
This only holds true if there's a cap for how many skill points a single character can have. That's not the case in PFO. It's only a matter of time before someone has high sleight of hand, high evasion/stealth, and is a "dps master".
I want the game to support Pickpockets and Thieves. Heck, I'd even be happy if it were possible for a Thief to steal something out of your personal house in your Settlement, or even out of your Settlement's vaults. I just don't see a way it can work in an MMO.
100% agree. Exactly what I was trying to resolve with my suggestion.Even if the thief is detected every time, what about the noncombatant (i.e. the most likely, lowest-risk target for a pickpocket)? They simply don't have the option of forcefully reacquiring their goods. Should they be required to hire a guard 100% of the time, to wander around with them in town simply to guard against pickpockets?
These issues could all apply to someone assaulted by a bandit, or jumped by a PK'er while harvesting. In both cases the victim will be having as much "fun" as the victim of a pickpocket.
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Goblin Squad Member
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100% agree. Exactly what I was trying to resolve with my suggestion.Even if the thief is detected every time, what about the noncombatant (i.e. the most likely, lowest-risk target for a pickpocket)? They simply don't have the option of forcefully reacquiring their goods. Should they be required to hire a guard 100% of the time, to wander around with them in town simply to guard against pickpockets?
I was thinking of pickpocketing as a PvP attack, with a short "fuse" for the flag. The more the thief succeeds on their "roll", the longer the fuse.
Using the logic you just offered, we should consider banning all PvP combat, because non-combatant classes have no option of forcefully defending themselves (which is what reaquiring ones goods would be). At some point players will just have to take responsibility for their character choices, strengths and weaknesses.
If I'm reading your suggestion right, it still relies on the victim reacting after the theft has occured. Possibly after the thief has already escaped. I'm not sure how that resolves the issues Tuoweit identified.
This is the part that I thought most stressing about the situation Tuoweit presented:
It's one of those asymmetric systems where only one side gets to do anything and the other side only (maybe!) gets to react after the fact, which is just bad gameplay for the victim
In my suggestion the victim always gets a chance to respond, just as if someone had hit them in combat.
But, I do want to reiterate another point I made, a concession to Dario. I envision thiefing as a form of PvP attack, so I think it should follow the same rules, with only minor modification (probably an effect of the pickpocket skill itself). I do think a pickpocket skill based upon assassination mechanics might be interesting to explore. In that case I can concede to the asymmetry with the understanding the the thief will have to flag prior to increase their chances, and if they succeed will take an automatic alignment hit (no hiding ones actions from the gods). I would even suggest that alignment movement would be towards chaotic versus evil. So, a roguish assassin thief would almost always lean toward CE (but would also allow CG robin hood types).
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Goblin Squad Member
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These issues could all apply to someone assaulted by a bandit, or jumped by a PK'er while harvesting. In both cases the victim will be having as much "fun" as the victim of a pickpocket.Even if the thief is detected every time, what about the noncombatant (i.e. the most likely, lowest-risk target for a pickpocket)? They simply don't have the option of forcefully reacquiring their goods. Should they be required to hire a guard 100% of the time, to wander around with them in town simply to guard against pickpockets?
Yes, but you can choose when you expose yourself to those elements (by choosing to go travelling, or harvesting). You can make plans to only do so when you can assemble a suitable group able to defend itself, or take a larger risk by going alone. You don't get to choose when you're accessible to pickpockets, they could be anywhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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These issues could all apply to someone assaulted by a bandit, or jumped by a PK'er while harvesting. In both cases the victim will be having as much "fun" as the victim of a pickpocket.Even if the thief is detected every time, what about the noncombatant (i.e. the most likely, lowest-risk target for a pickpocket)? They simply don't have the option of forcefully reacquiring their goods. Should they be required to hire a guard 100% of the time, to wander around with them in town simply to guard against pickpockets?
Yes, but you can choose when you expose yourself to those elements (by choosing to go travelling, or harvesting). You can make plans to only do so when you can assemble a suitable group able to defend itself, or take a larger risk by going alone. You don't get to choose when you're accessible to pickpockets, they could be anywhere.
Is this true? I thought the world was going to be open PvP with some parts with NPC guards. Darkfall had this same situation and it it was not always safe to sit in town. There are only x number of guards and since death is so cheap, it ends up being little deterrent to aberrant behaviour for some. Therefore, while you would be "safer" in town than the wilds, you might not always be as safe as you think. Likewise, remember I do argue the thief should always be flagged with an aggressor flag, just as if they hit you in PvP...so if they care about avoiding trouble in town, they would probably avoid thieving in town...making it safer using the same mechanics that already exist. And if they do not care about avoiding trouble in town, my previous argument still holds true.
EDIT: If PvP were not possible in some area, pickpocketing would be similarly impossible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where do you think the Enforcer flag can play into this? For example, if we use a delayed awareness system based on the magnitude of success of a pickpocket skill check vs perception, the pickpocket could get a delayed thief flag based on the check result, and possibly some sort of bounty flag as well. If there were characters in the Enforcer roll, they could be used to track the thief and try to get the item back. Pickpocketed items would be immune to being threaded by the thief. The thief could hand over the item if caught (a modified SAD), or fight the Enforcer(s). If the thief and his gang die, the stolen item would be immediately available if it is still on the thief. The victim may not get an immediate satisfaction from confronting the thief, but justice might win out if the thief were caught, and they could get the item back. I think this would give a much greater RPing option for characters who want to be Enforcers.
As per @KitNyx's edit, if we consider pickpocketing, theft, and burglary as PvP, they would not be allowed to happen in NPC settlements at all since PvP is not allowed there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As per @KitNyx's edit, if we consider pickpocketing, theft, and burglary as PvP, they would not be allowed to happen in NPC settlements at all since PvP is not allowed there.
I don't think PvP is disabled in NPC settlements, but there is just a large number of NPC guards that are massively more powerful than a PC standing by to slaughter anyone who gains an attacker or criminal flag. It's allowed, but chances are your won't live long to brag about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think PvP is disabled in NPC settlements, but there is just a large number of NPC guards that are massively more powerful than a PC standing by to slaughter anyone who gains an attacker or criminal flag. It's allowed, but chances are your won't live long to brag about it.
As per @KitNyx's edit, if we consider pickpocketing, theft, and burglary as PvP, they would not be allowed to happen in NPC settlements at all since PvP is not allowed there.
This was my understanding too, but either way works.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is this true? I thought the world was going to be open PvP with some parts with NPC guards. Darkfall had this same situation and it it was not always safe to sit in town. There are only x number of guards and since death is so cheap, it ends up being little deterrent to aberrant behaviour for some. Therefore, while you would be "safer" in town than the wilds, you might not always be as safe as you think. Likewise, remember I do argue the thief should always be flagged with an aggressor flag, just as if they hit you in PvP...so if they care about avoiding trouble in town, they would probably avoid thieving in town...making it safer using the same mechanics that already exist. And if they do not care about avoiding trouble in town, my previous argument still holds true.
EDIT: If PvP were not possible in some area, pickpocketing would be similarly impossible.
Safe is a relative term, but the pickpocketing being suggested is less like getting an attack against a player and more like being able to one-shot them. You make a single action that determines whether or not your intent is executed.
This would be more like one-shotting someone in the middle of town and then having a minute or two to get out of sight before anyone was allowed to react to it. If I can get gone before anyone can react, I'm a lot more likely to try something in town, whereas if I know it's going to take a protracted and public fight, where other can join in on my victim's side, I'm much less likely to engage someone in town.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think PvP is disabled in NPC settlements...
I think it's definitely on the table to completely disable PvP in certain areas.
From Is the game still Open PvP?:
Pathfinder Online will be an Open World game with Limited PvP and Limited Loot.
The PvP restrictions will be that there may be some places where you cannot attack or be attacked, there are some places where attacking without the right to do so will trigger a response that will kill you (maybe before you are able to kill your target).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is this true? I thought the world was going to be open PvP with some parts with NPC guards. Darkfall had this same situation and it it was not always safe to sit in town. There are only x number of guards and since death is so cheap, it ends up being little deterrent to aberrant behaviour for some. Therefore, while you would be "safer" in town than the wilds, you might not always be as safe as you think. Likewise, remember I do argue the thief should always be flagged with an aggressor flag, just as if they hit you in PvP...so if they care about avoiding trouble in town, they would probably avoid thieving in town...making it safer using the same mechanics that already exist. And if they do not care about avoiding trouble in town, my previous argument still holds true.
EDIT: If PvP were not possible in some area, pickpocketing would be similarly impossible.
Safe is a relative term, but the pickpocketing being suggested is less like getting an attack against a player and more like being able to one-shot them. You make a single action that determines whether or not your intent is executed.
This would be more like one-shotting someone in the middle of town and then having a minute or two to get out of sight before anyone was allowed to react to it. If I can get gone before anyone can react, I'm a lot more likely to try something in town, whereas if I know it's going to take a protracted and public fight, where other can join in on my victim's side, I'm much less likely to engage someone in town.
Yes, exactly. Even if you detect a pickpocket, by the time you do so they've already succeeded or not and only have to get away - a much easier and quicker proposition than having to defeat the victim (and possibly their guards) in combat, even against a non-combat victim. In a combat encounter, a noncombat victim can at least try to run away - getting away safely could be seen as a draw in a normal combat encounter, whereas running away from a pickpocket who's already stolen from you is a loss. There's no way for a noncombat player to even manage a draw in the pickpocket scenario.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is this true? I thought the world was going to be open PvP with some parts with NPC guards. Darkfall had this same situation and it it was not always safe to sit in town. There are only x number of guards and since death is so cheap, it ends up being little deterrent to aberrant behaviour for some. Therefore, while you would be "safer" in town than the wilds, you might not always be as safe as you think. Likewise, remember I do argue the thief should always be flagged with an aggressor flag, just as if they hit you in PvP...so if they care about avoiding trouble in town, they would probably avoid thieving in town...making it safer using the same mechanics that already exist. And if they do not care about avoiding trouble in town, my previous argument still holds true.
EDIT: If PvP were not possible in some area, pickpocketing would be similarly impossible.
Safe is a relative term, but the pickpocketing being suggested is less like getting an attack against a player and more like being able to one-shot them. You make a single action that determines whether or not your intent is executed.
This would be more like one-shotting someone in the middle of town and then having a minute or two to get out of sight before anyone was allowed to react to it. If I can get gone before anyone can react, I'm a lot more likely to try something in town, whereas if I know it's going to take a protracted and public fight, where other can join in on my victim's side, I'm much less likely to engage someone in town.
Hence why I suggested Assassination mechanics might work better.
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Yes, exactly. Even if you detect a pickpocket, by the time you do so they've already succeeded or not and only have to get away - a much easier and quicker proposition than having to defeat the victim (and possibly their guards) in combat, even against a non-combat victim. In a combat encounter, a noncombat victim can at least try to run away - getting away safely could be seen as a draw in a normal combat encounter, whereas running away from a pickpocket...Is this true? I thought the world was going to be open PvP with some parts with NPC guards. Darkfall had this same situation and it it was not always safe to sit in town. There are only x number of guards and since death is so cheap, it ends up being little deterrent to aberrant behaviour for some. Therefore, while you would be "safer" in town than the wilds, you might not always be as safe as you think. Likewise, remember I do argue the thief should always be flagged with an aggressor flag, just as if they hit you in PvP...so if they care about avoiding trouble in town, they would probably avoid thieving in town...making it safer using the same mechanics that already exist. And if they do not care about avoiding trouble in town, my previous argument still holds true.
EDIT: If PvP were not possible in some area, pickpocketing would be similarly impossible.
Safe is a relative term, but the pickpocketing being suggested is less like getting an attack against a player and more like being able to one-shot them. You make a single action that determines whether or not your intent is executed.
This would be more like one-shotting someone in the middle of town and then having a minute or two to get out of sight before anyone was allowed to react to it. If I can get gone before anyone can react, I'm a lot more likely to try something in town, whereas if I know it's going to take a protracted and public fight, where other can join in on my victim's side, I'm much less likely to engage someone in town.
Actually i dont believe your last sentence, which didn't copy in the quote, is correct. We don't know for sure how they will react, but if you've been pick pocketed, the thief will be flagged and the game should view you as being "in combat". If that's the case you could run to the guards and if they react like I think they will, the guards will go after the thief killing them and allowing you to recover your item.
I might be wrong in thinking this, but don't believe I am.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I understand it, assassins will have a whole different set of mechanics to make assassination meaningful. Some of this include a special flag, that must be activated prior to the assassination attempt, and the longer it is active prior, the greater your chance of success. It also has absolute hits to their alignment, when they assassinate someone, they always become more evil. I would use a similar mechanic, but toward chaotic. Want to avoid thieves? Find some way to detect chaos.
Anyone else know any of the other Assassination mechanics currently planned? Nihimon? Blaeringr?
Would it make sense to modify them for Thieving as I have suggested? What happens to an assassin after they do their deed?