Someone is going to say Cleric because of find traps.
This only works at high levels when you can devout level 2 slots to a spell that will often be wasted (1 min/level is not that much time to find traps).
Rogue is the best because of that rogue talent that allows you to find traps even without declaring you are looking for traps.
Edit:
Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
What level?
If it's past 6, archaeologist bard, hands down.
Halfing (or half-orc with sacred tattoo alternate racial trait) paladin with very high Charisma, high Constitution and all the possible buffs to saving throws.
Archaeologist Bard, probably.
Druid or Cleric with the Feather (animal) domain and Wisdom in the Flesh trait on Disable Device is pretty awesome at it, too.
Keep in mind anyone can find any trap, and anyone can disable nonmagical traps. And magical traps can be dealt with by dispel magic, and found with detect magic (in addition to using perception to search).
I wouldn't even have rogue in the top 5 for best classes to find traps. Archaeologist Bard, other bards, druid and cleric kitted as above, trapper ranger, synthesist summoner or regular summoner's eidolon (go-go Skilled evo for +8 bonus on a skill!), alchemist... Yeah, rogue's definitely not even in the top 5.
Archaeologist Bard, probably.
Druid or Cleric with the Feather (animal) domain and Wisdom in the Flesh trait on Disable Device is pretty awesome at it, too.
Keep in mind anyone can find any trap, and anyone can disable nonmagical traps. And magical traps can be dealt with by dispel magic, and found with detect magic (in addition to using perception to search).
I wouldn't even have rogue in the top 5 for best classes to find traps. Archaeologist Bard, other bards, druid and cleric kitted as above, trapper ranger, synthesist summoner or regular summoner's eidolon (go-go Skilled evo for +8 bonus on a skill!), alchemist... Yeah, rogue's definitely not even in the top 5.
I would disagree, I see a lot of trap-finders triggering traps because they forget to search for them. Of course, the archaeologist bard can take the rogue talent in question, so they are certainly a bit better (but OP doesn't seem to want something overly specializied).
Rogue/Dark Delver (Pathfinder Delver) I missed the name change.
Assuming the level is high enough.
Urban ranger with orisons instead of favored terrain. Wis is far from a dump stat, as is dex. Why orisons you ask? Well if you think there is a trap, then detect magic, that should be a dead give away for magic traps. Then disable as normal. The advantage for the ranger over a rogue with that spell talent is that you can do it infinite/per day. Same thing for archeologist bard, but wis is a dump stat for him.
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Okay, I got to ask:
Who has this much trouble with traps?
I have been playing Pathfinder since Alpha, and none of the Adventure Paths or Modules I have played through are so littered with traps that a Trap focused PC was needed.
Being completely trap focused sounds like a guaranteed bore.
Sitting around, being useless, until that one time when a trap is found.
Where does this paranoia come from? Why are there so many crying out "The Traps, the Traps, OH GOD THE TRAAAAAAAPS!!!!!"
What's with the Admiral Ackbar Syndrome?
Inquisitors.
A Zombie.... you said no summons.... you dont HAVE to summon the Zombie.
Okay, I got to ask:
Who has this much trouble with traps?
I have been playing Pathfinder since Alpha, and none of the Adventure Paths or Modules I have played through are so littered with traps that a Trap focused PC was needed.
Being completely trap focused sounds like a guaranteed bore.
Sitting around, being useless, until that one time when a trap is found.
Where does this paranoia come from? Why are there so many crying out "The Traps, the Traps, OH GOD THE TRAAAAAAAPS!!!!!"
What's with the Admiral Ackbar Syndrome?
It's left over paranoia from the days of 1e where every character had a ten foot pole and 50 feet of rope and most PCs died having never fought a single battle.
I agree with BBT. Rogue was my favorite class in 3E, and I hated traps, wanted nothing to do with them. Eagerly did anything I could to put the "trap guy" burden on someone else. Traps just aren't fun. At all. They tend to have an insanely harmful effect for their "CR" since they can be found and disabled and often happen outside of combat (and thus they need to deliver a sizeable "punch" to be scary, if it's only minor damage that's easily curable, it's going to b an after-thought). So, you've got these traps with devastating effects well above what your own PCs can do/cast. Then, since other people can't handle traps or not well, they stand back a safe distance and let you stick your neck out alone. And it's just one roll, or two including finding the trap. Either you succeed with your roll and move on, or you fail and suffer some horrible calamity.
Imagine if combat boiled down to "make a d20 roll, add this modifier. If you succeed, you win the combat and get xp and gp. If you fail the combat check, take 2d6 con damage." Sounds like fun, doesn't it?
I have no idea why someone would WANT to base their character around trap finding. It's less fun than being a heal bot. At least heal bot can shout, "go team cleric!" when they undo the monster's attack for lulz.
I agree with BBT. Rogue was my favorite class in 3E, and I hated traps, wanted nothing to do with them. Eagerly did anything I could to put the "trap guy" burden on someone else. Traps just aren't fun. At all. They tend to have an insanely harmful effect for their "CR" since they can be found and disabled and often happen outside of combat (and thus they need to deliver a sizeable "punch" to be scary, if it's only minor damage that's easily curable, it's going to b an after-thought). So, you've got these traps with devastating effects well above what your own PCs can do/cast. Then, since other people can't handle traps or not well, they stand back a safe distance and let you stick your neck out alone. And it's just one roll, or two including finding the trap. Either you succeed with your roll and move on, or you fail and suffer some horrible calamity.
Imagine if combat boiled down to "make a d20 roll, add this modifier. If you succeed, you win the combat and get xp and gp. If you fail the combat check, take 2d6 con damage." Sounds like fun, doesn't it?
I have no idea why someone would WANT to base their character around trap finding. It's less fun than being a heal bot. At least heal bot can shout, "go team cleric!" when they undo the monster's attack for lulz.
That's why I like the ranger, traps and tracking are situational at best, so I like to have them on a character who is still viable in combat...
I agree with BBT. Rogue was my favorite class in 3E, and I hated traps, wanted nothing to do with them. Eagerly did anything I could to put the "trap guy" burden on someone else. Traps just aren't fun. At all. They tend to have an insanely harmful effect for their "CR" since they can be found and disabled and often happen outside of combat (and thus they need to deliver a sizeable "punch" to be scary, if it's only minor damage that's easily curable, it's going to b an after-thought). So, you've got these traps with devastating effects well above what your own PCs can do/cast. Then, since other people can't handle traps or not well, they stand back a safe distance and let you stick your neck out alone. And it's just one roll, or two including finding the trap. Either you succeed with your roll and move on, or you fail and suffer some horrible calamity.
Imagine if combat boiled down to "make a d20 roll, add this modifier. If you succeed, you win the combat and get xp and gp. If you fail the combat check, take 2d6 con damage." Sounds like fun, doesn't it?
I have no idea why someone would WANT to base their character around trap finding. It's less fun than being a heal bot. At least heal bot can shout, "go team cleric!" when they undo the monster's attack for lulz.
I think there's something to be said for the character that's unafraid to go explore where he pleases. What's more boring than going ahead and searching for traps? Letting the zombie go ahead and spring the traps.
Archaeologist seems like it was designed to shame the rogue at the trap spotting game. A rogue is still the only class that can disarm the spells fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle. A rogue is also needed to bypass traps. I am not sure how well the archaeologist is in combat but it probably is comparable to a rogue and still has a lot of abilities for other things.
detective bard can disable magic traps
yeah Atarlost the text might be in error but I am not aware of any errata and specific overrides general so it still seems the rogue class is required for disabling certain traps. Like I said however the archaeologist is strictly better at spotting and disabling traps.
What level?
If it's past 6, archaeologist bard, hands down.
This.
Also note that a dwarf with Stonecunning gains most of the benefit of the Trap Spotter rogue talent; Stonecunning doesn't work in wooden structures or on snares in the wilderness, but most traps that people normally worry about are in dungeons with lots of stone work.
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For all everyone says a cleric with detect traps makes a rogue or other skill based trap spotter obsolete Ive always found there are two problems with the Find Traps spell, One is that a 1/minute per level duration is woefully short for any lengthy dungeon crawl and two is that unless someone is meta-gaming and knows the location of all the traps I highly suspect that the first trap is going be triggered by walking into it.
So basically anyone cautious with Trap Finding and moderate skills in perception and disable device is a better point man for traps then a cleric or sending some poor bastard in first in the hopes his high hp or saves will render a trap less deadly for the party as a whole. Witch I may add if someone in my party tries to make me trap bait I say throw the bastards down the hall first and see how they like the job.
So I suppose anyone strong enough to throw other party members down the hall is most effective at finding traps. Or maybe the guy who remembers why a 10 foot pole is a classic piece of adventuring gear.
Seeker Oracle
with the wrecker hex
At 5th level, whenever you attempt to damage an object with a melee attack, reduce its hardness by an amount equal to your oracle level before determining the damage you deal with that attack.
At 10th level, any attacks you make against objects and constructs automatically bypass any damage reduction they may possess except epic.
At 15th level, whenever you are dealt damage by an attack with a manufactured weapon, you can require the weapon’s wielder to make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your oracle level + your Charisma modifier) to avoid having the weapon collapse into dust immediately after striking you (magical weapons receive an additional saving throw against this effect).
Focused on CASTING, and skills, NOT COMBAT. (Wrecker is wretched for armed and armored oracles).
I consider the Trapspotter rogue talent essential for any character that wants to be the party's trap guy. Trapfinding is helpful but not as necessary, once you know the trap is there you can get creative on bypassing it. +1 to stonecunning doing the trapspotter work in most cases.
So, +1 to Cryptbreaker and Archaeologist being the best. Shadowdancer or Pathfinder Delver could pick it up later, even if they start with something un-roguely.
Dwarves of all sorts could handle it, as long as they get enough skill points. Drunken brute alchemist, sacred mountain monk, or any sort of ranger or druid all come to mind.
Dwarven anything with a high perception score. Seriously, whens the last time the trap wasn't in stone?
If they used wooden buildings the pcs would just burn it down.
Dwarven anything with a high perception score. Seriously, whens the last time the trap wasn't in stone?
If they used wooden buildings the pcs would just burn it down.
Almost all doors are wooden, and too damned many of them are trapped. Heck, our goblin Rogue (Knife Master) triggered one by rolling crappy just yesterday, but made the saving throw.
I don't think Disable Device is a class skill for the Archaeologist, is it? Admittedly, class skills don't matter that much at higher levels in PF. It seems like a weird omission, but I really can't find Disable Device anywhere for the Archaeologist.
Urban ranger with orisons instead of favored terrain. Wis is far from a dump stat, as is dex. Why orisons you ask? Well if you think there is a trap, then detect magic, that should be a dead give away for magic traps. Then disable as normal. The advantage for the ranger over a rogue with that spell talent is that you can do it infinite/per day. Same thing for archeologist bard, but wis is a dump stat for him.
How are urban rangers getting orisons? Favored terrain gets replaced by favored community.
I don't think Disable Device is a class skill for the Archaeologist, is it? Admittedly, class skills don't matter that much at higher levels in PF. It seems like a weird omission, but I really can't find Disable Device anywhere for the Archaeologist.
Its not a class skill, but the Trait Vagabond handles that little problem as does Nimble Fingers, Keen Mind.
Almost all doors are wooden, and too damned many of them are trapped. Heck, our goblin Rogue (Knife Master) triggered one by rolling crappy just yesterday, but made the saving throw.Dwarven anything with a high perception score. Seriously, whens the last time the trap wasn't in stone?
If they used wooden buildings the pcs would just burn it down.
Not to mention chests. In fact I'd say that between doors and chests most traps are located in wooden structures.
Not to mention chests. In fact I'd say that between doors and chests most traps are located in wooden structures.Almost all doors are wooden, and too damned many of them are trapped. Heck, our goblin Rogue (Knife Master) triggered one by rolling crappy just yesterday, but made the saving throw.Dwarven anything with a high perception score. Seriously, whens the last time the trap wasn't in stone?
If they used wooden buildings the pcs would just burn it down.
Right, but doors and chests are something that most people will say "I check for traps" on. It's the auto-check on every 10 ft section of floor that you want Trap Spotter or the equivalent for (probably using the "take 10" rule to make the GM's job easier). Otherwise, you get the "it takes 10 minutes of real time to walk 100 ft in the game" trope as the party makes Perception checks every 10 ft.
I just have my character check every 10 ft section of floor until the DM gets sick of the game dragging on and agrees to not be a dick about randomly placing traps in the middle of the floor.
Works for me. *shrug*
I wonder how much of this trap infatuation is just players with emotional and mental scarring from the olden "Gygax dungeon" days where you'd take a step forward and get disintigrated...
If a door is set in a stone wall then you are good, don't know what to say about chests though. But every trap is situational anyway. The dwarf is a great idea, as is anyone with access to detect magic. There are tons of options, really. I don't know why everyone hates on the rogue though. They got a lot of love with the d8s, combining some of their key skills, and three feat options through rogue talents. The scout archetype alone cures the main drawback of not being able to get reliable sneak attacks off.
C'mon everyone! Love your rogue!
I bought a Third Party module back in the '80s, where the party was supposed to go explore a castle. One of the first things that the party got was a set of three keys; one gold, one silver, one copper. All of the locks in the castle were either silver, gold or copper. Anything locked had one to three locks, the thing was if you used the wrong key you took damage, and as far as I could tell there was no way of determining which key went in which lock. In some places the key and lock matched, in others it didn't.
I just have my character check every 10 ft section of floor until the DM gets sick of the game dragging on and agrees to not be a dick about randomly placing traps in the middle of the floor.
That only works because of the death of old school wandering monsters. Try this in an old school game. Spend too much time in one spot, and monsters start figuring out where you are, and either attack you there, or wait for you in the next room.
I don't think Disable Device is a class skill for the Archaeologist, is it? Admittedly, class skills don't matter that much at higher levels in PF. It seems like a weird omission, but I really can't find Disable Device anywhere for the Archaeologist.Its not a class skill, but the Trait Vagabond handles that little problem as does Nimble Fingers, Keen Mind.
Thanks. Those two traits do sound a bit too specific for general use, though. Not every Archaeologist grows up among outcasts or has a specific religion.
But it's weird that such a trap-oriented archetype doesn't have disable device, that any malleable GM would probably allow it anyway. Still, it's an ugly fix.
I just have my character check every 10 ft section of floor until the DM gets sick of the game dragging on and agrees to not be a dick about randomly placing traps in the middle of the floor.That only works because of the death of old school wandering monsters. Try this in an old school game. Spend too much time in one spot, and monsters start figuring out where you are, and either attack you there, or wait for you in the next room.
And yet all of these wandering monsters never managed to trigger any of these randomly strewn traps.
Old school dungeon design: "Ecology? WTF is that?"
If a door is set in a stone wall then you are good, don't know what to say about chests though. But every trap is situational anyway. The dwarf is a great idea, as is anyone with access to detect magic. There are tons of options, really. I don't know why everyone hates on the rogue though. They got a lot of love with the d8s, combining some of their key skills, and three feat options through rogue talents. The scout archetype alone cures the main drawback of not being able to get reliable sneak attacks off.
C'mon everyone! Love your rogue!
Agreed on the Rogue. Detect Magic is nice, but most PC's seem to forget to use the damn thing.
The next time somebody recommends an Archaeologist Bard over a Rogue versus traps, I am going to laugh in their face. Sheesh. I don't have either of those supplements, because both are specific to the Pathfinder world, and I want to use my Forgotten Realms maps etc.
Most of my games ARE old school, so constantly searching for traps is right out. I tend to get devious when my players get pedantic. Of course, I don't randomly trap things either, just important stuff that the villain doesn't want you to get your mitts on.
And yet all of these wandering monsters never managed to trigger any of these randomly strewn traps.I just have my character check every 10 ft section of floor until the DM gets sick of the game dragging on and agrees to not be a dick about randomly placing traps in the middle of the floor.That only works because of the death of old school wandering monsters. Try this in an old school game. Spend too much time in one spot, and monsters start figuring out where you are, and either attack you there, or wait for you in the next room.
They'd have to be pretty silly to step in their own traps, wouldn't they? Say you're entering a kobold lair and you encounter some traps. Who do you think put them their? Do you think the kobolds locked themselves in due to those traps?
Old school dungeon design: "Ecology? WTF is that?"
Ecology is the exact point here. Traps don't appear out of nowhere. Somebody put them there for a reason. Who did that? And what are they going to do when someone tries to get past them?
And yet all of these wandering monsters never managed to trigger any of these randomly strewn traps.I just have my character check every 10 ft section of floor until the DM gets sick of the game dragging on and agrees to not be a dick about randomly placing traps in the middle of the floor.That only works because of the death of old school wandering monsters. Try this in an old school game. Spend too much time in one spot, and monsters start figuring out where you are, and either attack you there, or wait for you in the next room.They'd have to be pretty silly to step in their own traps, wouldn't they? Say you're entering a kobold lair and you encounter some traps. Who do you think put them their? Do you think the kobolds locked themselves in due to those traps?
Old school dungeon design: "Ecology? WTF is that?"Ecology is the exact point here. Traps don't appear out of nowhere. Somebody put them there for a reason. Who did that? And what are they going to do when someone tries to get past them?
You said Wandering Monsters. That implies random encounters with creatures that tend to dwell in the given area. Patrols of kobolds in their home isn't the same thing. And not every dungeon is a kobold dungeon, nor filled with only one kind of creature nor all the creatures in the area firmly allied together. Not to mention monsters of animal intelligence or mindless.
Many occurances of these "old school dungeon" trap fests don't seem to consider ecology much at all, and you just have to suspend your disbelief about it.
Ultimate Combat is kinda overly Monk based, and I never liked that class in the first place. So I probably will never buy it. Oh, and it doesn't come with Disable Device, which is kinda a prereq for being able to do something about traps. Smashing them isn't a good idea either, as triggering them may result.
The Scout is not useful in the dungeon, as it has to charge a lot, and worse you have to give up uncanny dodge, which is a bad thing if most of your AC comes from Dexterity.
Sorry, no banana for you Atarlost.
Ultimate combat has a lot of Monk love, but there are more than just monks.
there are firearms rules, not the best firearm rules. but workable out of the box.
there are the samurai and the ninja. the samurai could easily be reflavored as a knight with a few changes to weapon choice or weapon flavor. the ninja could just as easily be a Hassansin, or a variety of other spies or sleeper agents.
various weapons and armor for various tech levels and settings
rules for siege weapons and vehicles
variant rules for piecemeal armor
a bunch of combat feats, 20% of which are tailored to monks but available to other classes too.
You said Wandering Monsters. That implies random encounters with creatures that tend to dwell in the given area. Patrols of kobolds in their home isn't the same thing. And not every dungeon is a kobold dungeon, nor filled with only one kind of creature nor all the creatures in the area firmly allied together. Not to mention monsters of animal intelligence or mindless.And yet all of these wandering monsters never managed to trigger any of these randomly strewn traps.I just have my character check every 10 ft section of floor until the DM gets sick of the game dragging on and agrees to not be a dick about randomly placing traps in the middle of the floor.That only works because of the death of old school wandering monsters. Try this in an old school game. Spend too much time in one spot, and monsters start figuring out where you are, and either attack you there, or wait for you in the next room.They'd have to be pretty silly to step in their own traps, wouldn't they? Say you're entering a kobold lair and you encounter some traps. Who do you think put them their? Do you think the kobolds locked themselves in due to those traps?
Old school dungeon design: "Ecology? WTF is that?"Ecology is the exact point here. Traps don't appear out of nowhere. Somebody put them there for a reason. Who did that? And what are they going to do when someone tries to get past them?
I said "Wandering Monsters", not "Random Encounters". Wandering monsters don't have to be random. All "wandering" means is that they move around. But even if they're randomly generated, that still doesn't mean they don't have a reason to be there. The best random encounter tables (admittedly a rare thing) are closely tied to the story and the environment, providing interesting and unpredictable ways to complicate the story.
But yeah, it depends a lot on the kind of dungeon you're in, and why the traps are there. If you're breaking into an ancient tomb, likely nobody has moved around there in centuries, so you might have all the time in the world to safely check everything for traps. Nobody will disturb you. Except perhaps the ghosts of the deceased that you might accidentally have woken up. And those might not even be affected by the traps at all.
But when its a secret hideout that uses traps as one of its defenses against intruders, then there's likely someone keeping an eye on it who might raise the alarm if adventurers intrude. Or there might be a patrol that checks the area regularly and could bump into them.
If its the lair of a dead madman, anything is possible. Perhaps he loved designing elaborate deathtraps that nobody would ever find. By all means, take whatever time you need.
But if it's a place where a variety of monsters or animals can enter, then they can also enter while you're searching for traps. Especially when you're searching for traps where there aren't any, anything could bump into you there. But even when there are, maybe the creature that finds you there is every bit as new to the place as you are. If random creatures coming by is a regular occurrence, you'll likely see the bodies of victims of the traps (always good as a clue to the presence of traps). Unless it's a pit trap, of course. Well, maybe there's a smell.
But it's also possible that by opening some door, the PCs themselves cleared the way for all sorts of creatures.
The thing is, think about why it's there, what it's used for, and what the environment is like. There are tons of things you can do to bring any boring old dungeon alive.
Many occurances of these "old school dungeon" trap fests don't seem to consider ecology much at all, and you just have to suspend your disbelief about it.
It depends. Some old school dungeons are very much alive with a thriving ecology that moves around and has a reason for being there. Overly elaborate deathtraps are unrealistic in any sane situation. (Then again, not everybody is sane.) But if you suspend your disbelief far enough to allow that someone might use them for defensive purposes, there will likely be more defenses than just that. Someone will have put the trap there for a reason, and he will do other things for that same reason.
Of course many old school dungeons weren't designed with these considerations in mind. But many modern, recent dungeons have even less consideration for ecology. Defenders who are effectively locked up without any outside access until the PCs finally liberate them. Everybody neatly sticking to their assigned room. Oh, and big, elaborate, highly artificial dungeons designed specifically to protect something, filled with all sorts of crazy magical effects, but no actual traps whatsoever (but with the occasional locked up lone defender). That makes as little sense as random hole in the ground with tons of elaborate deathtraps.