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Dot for interest.
I'm with your GM on this one.
I'd side with your GM if this was a vote. But I can see a case for both the arguments.
Dot.
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I would allow it.
In comparison, I would look at Hand of the Apprentice (Universal School) where you throw your melee weapon at range.
So in both SU abilities you are 'throwing' something. If it should work for Hand of the Apprentice, then I would say it should work for Bombs.
I would rule that you would not get any splash damage by using it this way.
Btw, I disagree with your GM, the bombs SU includes creating and throwing, it is a Standard Action to do both... it isn't seperated by creating is a XX Action, and throwing is a XX Action equalling a Standard Action.
Just my 2 cents.
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It is only treated as a Weapon in relation to Feats.
The Splash Damage is Minor. The only advantage to using a Conductive Weapon is to be able to deal a little extra damage at the cost of 2 bombs 1/round.
A Rogue can do the same thing continuously.
I think it should work. I also think it's a horrible waste of money (on the weapon) and daily resources (on the bombs). But whatever floats your boat.
It can be handy if you use it wisely.
Conductive would only work on one of the Attack Rolls not all of them.
- The creation of the bomb is the supernatural ability. Throwing a bomb uses the Throw Splash Weapon special attack, and the bomb is in all ways considered a thrown splash weapon after it's creation.
- The bomb ability specifies "Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus."
- Therefore, if they are a weapon, they are not a Supernatural ability, and the Conductive property does not function for them.
Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes.
For example, a bard's inspire courage ability says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so <you> don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
I'd be hard pressed to argue that since a ray is treated as a weapon, it can't be conductive. The same argument could be made for bombs. They just call them weapons because then they don't have to repeat a bunch of rules.
I'd also point out, that even though bombs use the splash weapon mechanic, you can't hand them off for someone else to throw and if you don't throw them immediately they stop working. I don't think bombs last long enough for the "supernatural" part to wear off.
Since your conductive weapon (probably) doesn't use the splash weapon attack option, there won't be any splash. Unless you were using a shotgun-like firearm, because how fun is that.
Ultimately I'd allow it because I cannot think of a way to abuse it. If you've thought of a way to abuse it, I suggest you disclose that information to your GM up-front.
What I don't know for sure is how damage from conductive reacts to critical hits. I'm pretty sure only the weapon multiplies its damage because at this point all of your bomb is considered "extra dice" of damage.
I'm with the "Bombs only count as weapons for the purposes of Feats, much like Ray spells are considered weapons for the purposes of Feats such as Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot" camp.
Splash weapons require a ranged touch attack to use. Regardless of splash damage, you must A.) Pick a single target to throw at (be it a creature or a grid intersection) and B.) Hit its touch AC (which is all grid intersections have, they don't very well have armor and such bonuses).
I say it should work just fine, both RAW and otherwise.
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I would allow it, but I'd ask the player why he would want to do it.
You can channel only one bomb per round, it only works on ranged weapons and uses up two bombs instead of one.
The explosive missile discovery from UC allows you to shoot bomb arrows as a standard action but only uses one bomb per attack.
And if you really want an alchemist with a bow as his main weapon, a vivisectionist is probably better than a bomber.
Nicos:
He is using a bow to deliver the bomb energy.
Question: are you expecting to get the splash damage from the arrow?
That I am uncertain of. Presumably yes, if the ability is taking effect exactly as it usually does. I will defer to my DM on that (if he even allows me to do this).Nicos:
He is using a bow to deliver the bomb energy.Question: are you expecting to get the splash damage from the arrow?
Not really, Conductive only affects the creature struck.
I must admit this is a tough one no other (SU) ability I can think of has a material and somantic components.
A bomb is just a vial with stuff in it until mixed and infused with power and thrown.
You might argue that making special arrows to deliver the bomb, but then why conductive if you are just firing the bomb
in and arrow shaft? Also as per conductive it has to be the same type of weapon(Melee or Ranged) Bombs are (Thrown, Splash, Ranged Touch) will it even work?
I would allow it, because I don't see how changing a Ranged Touch to a Ranged attack with no splash using up two bombs is better.
+1 BONUS
AURA moderate necromancy CL 8th WEIGHT —
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spelllike
or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged
touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric’s domain
granted power, sorcerer’s bloodline power, oracle’s mystery
revelation, or wizard’s arcane school power). When the
wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type,
he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability
to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent,
which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the
special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special
ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.)
For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with
her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay
on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal
both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on
hands. This weapon special ability can only be used once per
round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type
as the weapon (melee or ranged).
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST +1 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, spectral hand
I am currently playing an Alchemist(Grenadier)/Fighter. The Alchemist is
an unusual class to play.
The Explosive Missiles discovery does what you want, except without a full attack. So there is precedent that want you want is within the realms of reasonable.
Have you asked your DM if the Explosive Missiles discovery and the Fast Bombs discovery would work together?
Conductive Weapon: One arrow bomb during a full attack, costs two bombs.
Explosive Missiles: One arrow bomb as a standard action, costs one bomb.
Explosive Missiles + Fast Bomb: full attack with arrow bombs, costs one bomb each.
Explosive Missiles + Conductive: One arrow bomb with x2 bomb damage, costs three bombs. Hello True Strike.
Explosive Missiles + Conductive + Fast Bombs: Full attack with arrow bombs, one arrow does bomb damage twice. Costs one bomb each plus two.
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Just thinking about this but would the following work?
Assume a Grenadier with an +1 Agile Conductive dagger with an Alchemist's Fire. He applies the Alchemist's Fire to the weapon, throws the dagger, hits the enemy, and then uses the conductive property. Will he get (1d4+Dex)+(1d6+Int)+(xd6+Int) for a total of 1d4+(x+1)d6+Dex+2Int? Thats not bad for a high Dex/Int character.
Does anyone know if the Fast Bombs discovery must be used to throw only bombs, or does it also allow you to throw bombs in addition to other weapons during a full attack?
Ok this is going to have to be a DM ruling.
I have just one more question
What are the characters stats, you are talking like you have a high STR, high DEX, high INT. All three? or are you using buffs, mutagens ect?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Here's what I see:
Bombs: In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies.
The ability seems to clearly spell out that your magical powers are infused into the bomb which you then throw. The fact that you treat is as a thrown splash weapons in most ways is consistent with this.
I'm not sure it matters though, channeling your energy through a melee weapon? It's kind of neat, but isn't that what the vivisectionist already got? I would pull the bonus damage from INT because that is tied to Throw Anything and you aren't throwing it.
Bombs can't be used with a Conductive Melee Weapon. Only a Conductive Ranged Weapon. Which I would say allows Splash Damage but not INT unless you use a Thrown Ranged Weapon(Chakram anyone?).
Dude, I heard you like Bombs...
Nevermind...
speaking as an experienced GM, this doesn't look unbalancing to me and i would allow it. it wouldn't do any splash damage, since that enchantment states "expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent" and bombs only add your Int mod. because they're splash weapons (see the alchemist's "throw anything" ability), which a conductive arrow wouldn't be, so you'd lose that too.
however, ultimately your GM is the sovereign god of his campaign- if he says it doesn't work, it doesn't... if he says all melee attacks are charisma based, they are- that's the silver-lining to being responsible for running everything instead of just enjoying playing.
I am in favor of these Grenade Launchers
I am inclined to agree with your GMs ruling.
If I were your GM, I would add the following comments:
1) Why don't you just take Explosive Missiles, which seem to do, what you are trying to achieve?
2) In generel, since you have the option of a class feature doing what you want, I prefer that your character does not rely on specific magic items to do, what you want the to.
Conductive is a Single Bomb infused Attack in a Full-Attack With a Ranged Weapon.
Explosive Missile is a Single Attack as a Standard Action and Costs a Discovery which you might want to use for something else.
If you actually figure they lose quite a bit for this tactic and gain a little bit.
And the Bombs Power is Supernatural. The Weapon is the Vessel holding the Power.
I'd not only allow this, I *do* allow this in my current game, based on the player logic involved. Creating and throwing the bomb is a single action. You can't 'pre-create' bombs in order to get around the need for the Fast Bombs discovery, nor can you hand off bombs to others by default, so I don't see creating/throwing them as separated actions.
Note that the biggest advantage of Conductive over the Explosive Missile discovery is that Conductive only applies to a *successful* attack.
As shooting a bow is not a touch attack, you're likely to use up fewer bombs with Conductive Weapon (note that the Alchemist in my game is mostly concerned about the very limited range of bombs).
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Alright, I should lead off by saying that my friends and I are very experienced players. This is the first time we've had to ask a question on these forums.
I seem to have reached an impasse with my soon-to-be Gamemaster when it comes to the combination of the Conductive weapon property and Alchemist bombs.
The Conductive property states:
"A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability."
My argument is as follows:
- Bombs are a Supernatural ability, as specified in the Alchemist ability description
- Bombs rely on a ranged touch attack to hit a target
- Therefore, you can expend bombs using the Conductive propertyMy GM's argument is as follows:
- The creation of the bomb is the supernatural ability. Throwing a bomb uses the Throw Splash Weapon special attack, and the bomb is in all ways considered a thrown splash weapon after it's creation.
- The bomb ability specifies "Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus."
- Therefore, if they are a weapon, they are not a Supernatural ability, and the Conductive property does not function for them.
I would be with the GM. The substance created and put in the bomb vial is the supernatural part.
I'd not only allow this, I *do* allow this in my current game, based on the player logic involved. Creating and throwing the bomb is a single action. You can't 'pre-create' bombs in order to get around the need for the Fast Bombs discovery, nor can you hand off bombs to others by default, so I don't see creating/throwing them as separated actions.
Note that the biggest advantage of Conductive over the Explosive Missile discovery is that Conductive only applies to a *successful* attack.
As shooting a bow is not a touch attack, you're likely to use up fewer bombs with Conductive Weapon (note that the Alchemist in my game is mostly concerned about the very limited range of bombs).
Actually the part of conductive only taking effect on a hit, is what flavorwise makes no sense to me. Suddenly it is not a matter of the alchemist being limited in the number of bombs he can create per day, but a matter of how many hit their target.
I can see it as the Bow & Arrow share a link and you infuse the power into the Bow which transfers it to the Arrow.
If someone was to allow this, it only makes sense to still require the fast bombs discovery for it to be usable in full-round attacking.
Per Conductive: "This weapon property can only be used once per round". So Fast Bombs or not, you can only have one conductive shot per round (all the rest would be normal shots)
As shooting a bow is not a touch attack, you're likely to use up fewer bombs with Conductive Weapon (note that the Alchemist in my game is mostly concerned about the very limited range of bombs).I don't understand your reasoning here...
- the fact that you need to use 2 bombs for 1 conductive attack (meaning you'd need to have quite poor accuracy for it to be worth the double-use penalty)
Or unless you are trying to attack a foe at over 100', which is flat impossible with bombs (20' increment). Any time bombs are remotely feasible, that's the way to go, but sometimes they aren't.
As far as 'sensible', Conductive is what it is. If it works for one class's ranged Supernatural ability, then I see no reason to restrict it for the alchemist.
All Conductive allows is for you to transfer your power via the Arrow.
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When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type...
You only apply the conductive properly after you successfully hit. Along with the verbiage about only being able to do it once per round, you're not getting a full attack with infused conductive bombs. You can still full attack, but you would only get the bombs once.