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Ok, i've seen several threads on the topics, but digging thru them didn't see anything official.
James Jacobs has said a number of times that he doesn't think bashing and shield spikes should stack. James is not PFS campaign leadership, though, so while that ruling might be RAI and a good idea, it's not binding for PFS.
Your best bet might be to escalate your issue to your local venture officer, who in turn may escalate it to the secret venture boards or wherever it is they discuss things like this. You could also contact Mike Brock directly, but I'm unsure if that's considered rude for a rules question.
-edit- Citations!
JJ1: "Shield spikes are baseline weapons, so lead blades works fine on them. The bashing quality is NOT a baseline weapon, which is why that's a concern. What prevents the bashing ability from applying to a shield spike is that bashing is something you put on a shield, NOT a shield spike. (more in link)"
JJ2: "Because a shield spike and a shield bash are DIFFERENT weapons (they've got different entries on the weapon table on page 142 to prove it). The bashing quality says noting about improving a shield spike attack. It's ONLY about improving a shield bash attack."
JJ3: "The bashing enhancement would be a sort of silly one to give to a spiked shield, in my opinion. You'd end up with a spiked shield that you could attack with as a weapon in spiked shield mode or bashing mode... they wouldn't stack together. You'd have to decide which one you were using when you attacked."
JJ4: (Spiked heavy bashing shield does 2d6) "Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon. It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine."
That last one is a good FAQ candidate.
I would like to see some kind of "enlargement bonus" in the future. Then everything is clear by RAW.
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While obviously I don't overrule JJ, I think the 4th quote is poor logic. A spiked heavy bashing shield does 2d6 which is more than any other 1hd weapon? well since bashing is an enchantment, I'd throw out there that it's not any more damage than a flaming, corrosive, shocking, or frost rapier.
+1 to LazarX, that would be my ruling.
The spike doesn't make the shield's edge or face more damaging, it's a weapon that is wielded via the shield. It's a _separate_ weapon from the shield, rules-wise. So Bashing on the shield does not affect the spikes at all, and Lead Blades on the spikes does not affect the shield. I would allow Lead Blades on the Bashing Shield, and I don't think that's overpowered.
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Throwing in on the other side. Shield spikes, according to RAW are not there own weapon.
hese spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons).You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
They are a modifier on the shield bash and you are still specifically making a shield bash attack. The weapon chart is only to make clear what the new damage types are. Thus a spiked shield is a single weapon, not two and must be enchanted as one but otherwise all the abilities stack.
well I don't know about bashing and lead blades, that's a tough call, but spikes and bashing definitely do.
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Ok, i've seen several threads on the topics, but digging thru them didn't see anything official. Since this is for PFS, and I'd already burned several feats and class choices on the build, now I have a GM who says they don't, and one who says they do.
Did I miss it somewhere where there's an official answer, or is it up to GM variation?
Spiked shield, Heavy 1h weapon d6 x2
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
For the stacking aspect, Bashing uses a different spell for the effect even, which is usually the dead giveaway. Just like Enlarge would stack with bulls strength.
I don't want to start the argument again, but plz link if there's a thread that's official on it.
The problem here is, regardless of whether or not Bashing works with a spiked shield, that both modify the base size of the weapon. One makes it count as size+1 and another makes it count as size+2. It doesn't say, "increase size by 1" or whatever, it functions as if bigger. So they'd overlap effects. The weapon could be size+1 or size+2 but not size+3.
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The problem here is, regardless of whether or not Bashing works with a spiked shield, that both modify the base size of the weapon. One makes it count as size+1 and another makes it count as size+2. It doesn't say, "increase size by 1" or whatever, it functions as if bigger. So they'd overlap effects. The weapon could be size+1 or size+2 but not size+3.
Thats a good point but I am not sure I agree. They are all untyped bonuses to the damage dice. Enlarger person and lead blades will both increase the damage dice of a great sword but I don't think anyone will argue that they don't stack.
The problem here is, regardless of whether or not Bashing works with a spiked shield, that both modify the base size of the weapon. One makes it count as size+1 and another makes it count as size+2. It doesn't say, "increase size by 1" or whatever, it functions as if bigger. So they'd overlap effects. The weapon could be size+1 or size+2 but not size+3.Thats a good point but I am not sure I agree. They are all untyped bonuses to the damage dice. Enlarger person and lead blades will both increase the damage dice of a great sword but I don't think anyone will argue that they don't stack.
They're not untyped bonuses--they're not bonuses at all. They simply treat the weapon as X sizes larger than its base.
Enlarge Person stacks with Lead Blades because Enlarge Person raises the base size of the weapon, as it literally makes it bigger, while Lead Blades treats it as one size larger than the (now larger) base.
You have to be careful about how this stuff works. It's just like in another recent thread where someone wants to combine the Helpful trait and the Order of the Dragon ability that increases their Aid Another Bonus. Both set the new bonus (one sets it to +4, and the other sets it to +3), rather than adding to the previous bonus, so they don't combine.
It's the same here. Bashing and Lead Blades set the effective size, rather than adding to the effective size, so they don't combine.
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For Clarity my point was for Shield spikes and Bashing. But lets see if I can go for all three.
Shield spikes state they "increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you." So they increase the base of the weapon. The Shields new base damage is 1d6.
The bashing quality says "A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger." It doesn't care if your shield is spiked or not it just ups it by two sizes so the shield's damage is increased to 2d6.
Lead Blades says "All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are." so lead blades look at the base damage of the weapon, which thanks to spikes is 1d6, and increases it by one to 1d8.
So there are two possibilities that I see:
1. shield: 1d4, Shield Spikes: 1d6, Lead blades: 1d8, bashing: 3d6
2. shield: 1d4, Shield Spikes: 1d6, Bashing: 2d6, Lead blades only effect base so it doesn't apply
I don't really know which one I think it correct. I think obviously spikes and bashing or spikes and lead blades works but the interaction between lead blades and bashing is blurry.
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The abilities don't stack since they're all setting the weapon size to specific category over the base. No matter what happens you've always got a medium shield (or whatever) as your base weapon, so if you have an item that treats it as one size category larger, a spell that does the same, and then an enchantment that sets it to 2 size categories larger, it 's only going to take the best option, not stack them all up together.
You could conceivably make an argument for shield spikes stacking with one of the spells (despite the creative director for Paizo saying he doesn't think you should) but the precedence for size increases is set in the Enlarge Person spell where it notes "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
Seraphim's quote proves I was wrong. Just felt I had to say that.
Lead Blades and Impact both make it deal damage as if it were one size larger than it actually is, so they would not stack with each other. Enlarge Person literally makes them larger, though, so it would stack with either (but not both).
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Shield Spikes modify the shield. Technically, once you Spike a shield, you can't do a blunt dmg bash with it anymore. The very shield has been altered.
Shield Spikes are a part of the shield. The fact they get different entries is because they do different damage, not because they are different weapons. All SPikes do is change the damage dice and type...NOTHING ELSE.
You don't enchant Shield Spikes. You enchant the Shield as a weapon. There are NO material costs for adding Spikes made of special materials, if you'll notice. It's as cheap to add spikes to an adamantium shield as it is a steel one...so presumably the shield's construction is what is important. You can't SUNDER shield spikes...you can only sunder a spiked shield.
All that said, everything stacks. A SPiked Shield is d6 damage base. WIth bashing, it slams for 2-12...two size increases. Since Lead Blades operates completely differently then Bashing, it should stack. It's certainly within the rights of a DM to rule that Bashing is a SUPERIOR form of Lead Blades, but Bashing doesn't increase weight, and the flavor and 'same source' eyeball doesn't match up.
So a Spiked Bashing Shield does 2-12, and 3-18 with Lead blades, just like a Greatsword. It's main problem is that it's piercing damage and a crappy 20/x2 crit. It's not going to replace a main weapon anytime soon.
==Aelryinth
this is the entirety of the rules concerning Shield Bashing.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
I can't find ANY rules for adding spikes to a shield after it is made.
The modifier rules for a spiked shield are for buying a shield with spikes, NOT adding spikes post-make.
Benefit: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
notice the very telling last paragraph. It's a SPIKED SHIELD, not 'the spikes on a shield'. It's ALL ONE ITEM after you pay +10 gp to add the spikes.
From a rules standpoint, you don't enchant the spikes, and they 'don't exist'. You have a spiked shield, and the damage changes. That's it. Adding adamantium spikes to a mithral shield means you have a mithral spiked shield. Adding cold iron spikes to a silver shield means you have a silver spiked shield. the spikes are not a seperate weapon..they are a modifier to a shield. No price modifiers, and no material costs, apply.
If you can point out a rule that allows you to add Spikes after construction, and then how those interact with the fact you enchant the whole shield, not the spikes, I'd be obliged. Until then, the type of the shield's main material is what it's made of, and the spikes are non-existent as far as material goes. An adamantium spiked shield costs exactly the same price +10 gp as a plain adamantium shield.
It may not be logical, but that's how the rules are set up.
==Aelryinth
Flurry at level 20 is 7 attacks plus 1 for speed. I do not believe that you can stack multiple speed weapons. If you could, you would theoretically be able to get 14 attacks with 7 different speed weapons and quick draw.
I would not allow stacking Impact and Bashing. I believe that they are different levels of the same effect.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
I understand we are talking about magical effects and not spells but this is the first paragraph in the same section:
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient.
The character would not be treated as Gargantuan, the damage dice would be X times higher. In this case, I think it is 3 X higher as I don't believe the two enchantments stack.
I do believe a non-magical effect and a magical one do stack.
So, I think, it would be:
L. Heavy Spiked Shield base 1d8 + Bashing = 3d6
If you were to allow Impact and Bashing to stack, wouldn't that be 4d6 or 3d8? I am pretty sure it doesn't jump to 8d8. I admit I am not sure about that, but the ones listed above come form the chart in the CRB p145.
I am not sure how the spiked shield works as large but unless he is large (or has some other source) it would take two hands to use, limiting his ability to dual wield.
I hope this helps.
Lead Blades and Impact don't have language that they stack, they both do the same thing and overlap.
They MIGHT stack with Bashing. I don't think it would imbalance it much if they did. An impact bashing shield is a worse weapon then an impact Greatsword because of the threat range.
In any event, the most you're going to get out of it is 3-18 damage. Certainly not a Gargantuan size shield damage.
If more virtual size increases apply, they are all going to apply back to the base damage of 2-12 of a Bashing Spiked Shield, AT BEST. Because it doesn't say they stack, so you can't make a blanket ruling that they do. Actually, unless it says something to the effects of 'modifies virtual size', they probably shouldn't stack.
So, what you're going to get is two extremes, where everything stacks, or nothing stacks, and they all work off base damage. And its probably best if you tend towards the latter, and not the former.
I'd personally rule that Bashing makes it a 2-12 Shield base, and everything else goes back to that base and doesn't stack. But, that's me.
8d8 damage? Not a chance.
==Aelryinth
The only RAW Statement about shield spikes + bashing I've ever been able to find was an NPC in the NPC folio who uses that combination.
All other statements have not been made in a rules context and thus are only opinions.
That said there is only one rules relevant text, this text allows it thus it is legal.
On the other hand bashing and lead blades both treat the weapon as larger than it is, not larger than it is treated to be. Because of that they do not stack.
FAQ says no, in my opinion. If impact and lead blades won't stack it seems to me that bashing and impact or lead blades shouldn't stack either. I would assume it's the "same effect different strengths" aspect.
Weapon Special Ability, Impact: Does this stack with the lead blades spell?
No. The weapon special ability and the spell are similar effects; note that impact lists lead blades as a construction requirement.
If you want RAW, just do whatever they do in PFS.
If you want RAI, I think 3.5/Pathfinder weapon system was designed to be balanced overall. No weapon is fundamentally better than the other, their differences compensate one another. 2h weapons do more damage but require two hands, light weapons do less damage but can be used to TWF with less penalties. Axes have a critical multiplier of x3 where swords have a critical range of 19-20, which is pretty balanced. This balance gives us more freedom to choose what weapon will we use depending on our taste.
Well, my point is, if someone wants to use a shield as his weapon of choice, he should not be penalized for it. Sure, I know, "It's a SHIELD!" Not exactly a well designed deadly weapon, but at least in a fantasy RPG it should be possible, just as a dire-flail or someone who wishes to play as a 2h guitar wielding Bard also should be free to do so.
So, if we consider the shield to be a weapon just like any other, it's damage should be balanced with the others. To me, the Bashing magic property turns the shield into a "real weapon" giving it stats balanced with any other weapon of it's size (light 1d6, one-handed 1d8). The downside is that it's critical range is only 20/x2, but on the other side it's also still a shield, that makes it balanced, IMO.
Now, any regular weapon can be enchanted with Impact, or some other special ability that improves it's damage "as if it were 1 size larger", but a magic Bashing shield already has an effect similar to that. Even so, as any weapon, a Bashing shield should also be able to be affected by at least one special property that improves it's damage as if it were 1 size larger, and that's what Shield Spikes do.
So, to me, the Bashing magic shield property is an special EXTRA "size" shield Only ability that tuns shield into "real weapons" and stacks with any one other size incrase effect.
As for the other "As if it were 1 size larger" effects, you should be able to benefit from only one, like Shield Spikes, or Impact, Lead Blades, Improved Natural Weapon, Powerfull build, Titan Mauler, etc...
"Oh, but one is an actual size increase and the other is not". Doesn't matter, the description is fluff, if it said it was sunshine that made it deal damage equal to 1 size larger would it matter? It shouldn't. So just one size damage increase buff effect per weapon.
These effects do stack with enlarge person or similar polymorph enlarge spells, though, IMO, since you'll only be able to benefit from one of those too anyway.
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So, to me, the Bashing magic shield property is an special EXTRA "size" shield Only ability that tuns shield into "real weapons" and stacks with any one other size incrase effect.
A shield is a real weapon regardless of any spikes or the bashing enchantment. A light shield is a light martial weapon. A heavy shield is a one-handed martial weapon.
By "real weapons" (note the quotation marks) I meant the Bashing shield enchant turns the shield into a weapon just as good as any other of their category. A regular light shield bash does only 1d3 damage with a crit of 20x2, not a real optimal coice of weapon for a dedicated melee warrior. With the Bashing enchant, the light shield bash now does 1d6, a reliable damage for a light weapon, just like most other light weapons.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'd already burned several feats and class choices on the build, now I have a GM who says they don't, and one who says they do.
up to GM variation?.
You answered your own question. Up to table variance.
Any time you push the envelope when the rules have multiple meanings possible, you run this risk.
I've got a 10th level Overrun build that I honestly don't think I ever had a GM that ran the various feats I had the same. 20 some odd different GM's and 20 different interconnected sets of interpretations. It was finally too much for me to I retired the character.