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Organized Play Member. 43 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


Unfortunately, Imma hafta go to bed here, and I'm not quite done with this. It does seem do probably more damage than what I was doing with my base build. This campaign starts in a week, so I'll be back on tomorrow to hash this out. Thanks again! :D

Awesome, thanks for the reply, and the numbers. Lemme go over this, this'll take a minute O.o

Righto, that makes sense, alright. It just seems that, numbers wise, getting 2 extra attacks plus the rend damage, albeit at a -2 penalty, is still superior to doing a little over a 3rd of that damage and having to burn panache points to make it worth my while.

I actually ran the numbers for the dex build when I first tried out this character, and when it comes to sheer DPR, strength wins every time, hands down. Dex is a lot more flavorful, for sure, but this is more optimization than flavor, obviously.

The reason to do a swashbuckler over a fighter or cavalier for TWF is the passive bonuses the swashbuckler gets, along with panache. As a class, it's a really really strong twf class. There's nothing a fighter can do that a swashbuckler can't do, but the 'Buckler gets scaling bonuses to their saves and AC! I don't understand how a fighter is a better class for this type of thing?

So... + 19 damage on one attack, or 2 extra attacks at +12 damage each plus a 1D10 +12 rend? And where is the +2 on all attacks coming from?

I like that cavalier archetype though, that's interesting. And I had no idea about Effortless Lace, that is one crazy good item O.o. That gives me another feat slot, thankfully <3

kestral287 wrote:

You have plenty of room to fit in Dex.

Penetrating Strike is terrible, Greater Penetrating Strike is also terrible. Drop just one of those two and you have room for Fencing Grace. Problem solved.

The Kitsune Pounce/Shapechanger setup is also terrible for a Swashbuckler, as they simply do not have the Swift Actions to spare to set it up and keep it running.

DKFever wrote:
Sorry, I should have gone over this. I'm trying to do a crit build. At level 20 the Swashbuckler Inspired Blade autoconfirms all crits, has a multiplier with rapiers of x3, and a threat range of 13-20.

Can do. I'll revise the above Daring Champion build.

Note that if you take the Dread Devourer you won't get the Swashbuckler capstone. It's still adding one to your CR, so CR 1/level 19 is what you'd start at.

I'll agree that penetrating strike isn't that good. Greater, however, allows me to ignore flat DR, which when you're attacking 8 times in a full attack action is pretty important. That's 40 more points of damage a round, which adds up really quickly.

Understood about the Dread Devourer, if I end up using that one I'll still be down a level. I'll just have to wait a little bit to auto confirm :P

The swift actions on the pounce are on the charge turn, right? I'm pretty sure I'd like a +2 bonus on all my attacks, and a full attack action with movement, over a panache deed for that first turn. After that, if they're still alive then sure, I'll be using my swift actions for Panache. I don't think swift action starvation is going to be an issue.

And again, we're missing Double Slice and Two weapon Rend, 2 pretty high profile damage feats. What's supposed to make up for that lost damage with the dex build?

Sorry, I should have gone over this. I'm trying to do a crit build. At level 20 the Swashbuckler Inspired Blade autoconfirms all crits, has a multiplier with rapiers of x3, and a threat range of 13-20. The main reason for the 2 weapon fighting is to get more attacks to roll crits, thereby multiplying my damage.

Although, even that aside, I still don't think dex is superior to strength on a swashbuckler for pure damage output. You're losing Double SLice as well as 2 weapon rend, and you have to burn another feat slot (Slashing grace) to even be mildly effective. On top of that, you're not going 2 weapon fighting at that point, so you're not attacking nearly as many times. Sure, there are a couple of panache deeds that I miss out on, but the mains one I'm using (Parry Riposte, Dodging Panache, Targeted Strike, Deadly Stab, Stunning Stab) don't care about str vs dex.

I don't understand how burning a feat, and losing 2 damage output feats, just to be able to do less damage then the strength build, is in any way more effective?

Stats so far:

Raolin Darksbane, Level 20 Kitsune Dread Devourer Inspired Blade Swashbuckler

Str - 18 (+10 DD)(+6 B)(-2 Kit)(+2 AI) = 34 (+12)
Dex - 17 (+2 DD)(+1 AI)(+2 Kit)(+6 B) = 28 (+9)
Con - 11 (+1 AI) = 12 (+1)
Wis - 16 (+6 DD)(+6 B) = 28 (+9)
Int - 12 (+6 DD)(+6 B) = 24 (+6)
Cha - 18 (+6 DD)(+6 B)(+2 Kit) = 30 (+10)

HP = 306
AC = 49 (10 + 11 Armor + 5 Dex + 13 Natural +5 Dodge +5 Deflection)
BAB = +19/+14/+9/+4

Fort Save = + 21 (6 Base +5 Misc + 10 Absco)
Reflex Save = + 25 (11 Base +5 Misc + 9 Absco)
Will Save = + 20 (6 Base +5 Misc + 9 Absco)

Panache = 16
Initiative = +13


(Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapiers, Improved Critical free) 1: 2 Weapon Fighting 3: Double Slice 4: Oversized 2 Weapon Fighting 5: Improved 2 Weapon Fighting 7: Weapon Specialization Rapiers 8: Greater Weapon Focus 9: Critical Focus 11:Two Weapon Rend 12: Penetrating Strike 13: Swift Vulpine Shapechanger 15: Vulpine Pounce 16:Greater Penetrating Strike 17:Improved Initiative 19: Greater Weapon Specialization

I don't understand why everyone wants to do dex instead of str? Is there somethign I'm missing about the swashbuckler that wants dex over strength?

Thanks for the replies so far :D

The reason I wanted to go strength instead of dex is the feat starvation I'm feeling. The swashbuckler Inspired blade archetype is pretty strong, from what I've seen. I'll post the base build that I'd have at Level 20 in the first post, and we'll go from there.

Thanks for the reply. I'll keep that in mind. I was more looking for a race/template to complement my build, but it's a start!

Hey all, I need a little help here. I'm going to be in a new campaign with a new GM that I haven't played with before, but my playgroup has. This GM is rather notorious for creating really insane stuff for us to deal with, but we also get to make insane characters to try to duke it out. I need y'all's help with creating a pretty broken character that can withstand the onslaught that's about to be unleashed.

Format: Level 20 Character, 2 Mythic Tiers. Allowed: templates, custom races, all 3.5 material. Following the "lose CR of templates as you level" rule, where you lose half your total CR (rounded up) at a rate of one CR every 3 levels. (So a level 19 character could have a CR +3 template, and still count as level 20)

It's about as open ended and OP as you can get lol. What I'm looking for is a good template or monstrous race that can go with a Swashbuckler Inspired Blade. I'm going the strength 2 weapon fighting rapiers build. I need help picking a race/template to complement that. Currently it's kind of a toss up between the Dread Devourer or the Grave Knight.

What I need: Lots of Feats, lots of Strength and HP, and Pounce. Not really interested in a ton of limbs, unless someone makes a really compelling reason to have such a thing.

So: Pimp my swashbuckler, please!

Doesn't the monks unarmed strikes already count as manufactured weapons for the purpose of determining enhancement bonuses? So wouldn't the weapon attunement just automatically apply to them, therefore removing the need for AoMF?

The. Best. Effect. EVER.

This is what pounce is. ^.^

Gilarius wrote:
Additionally, take a look at the rules for ranged weapons and ammunition. Only the highest enhancement bonus counts, even though they are different objects.

Ah. perfect, thank you. That's what I was looking for. Concrete examples make my life so much easier.

Gisher wrote:
DKFever wrote:

I'm asking for a clarification of the way enhancement bonus stacking is worded in reference to objects. I was only using the claw blades as an example. It's clearly an erroneous one, but substituting the tailblade makes it an accurate example.

The question is about the the enhancement definition is worded. To clarify: If a ratfolk with the tailblade weapon has the tailblade enchanted to +5, will it then stack with an AoMF +5 according to the wording of the enhancement term?

Ignoring the natural vs manufactured debate, the answer is still no. You can't have a weapon with a +10 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. And even if you could, enhancement bonuses don't stack. So +5 and +5 would just get you +5.

Thank you for answering the topic question <3

The argument I'm making is that according to the enhancement bonus wording, "Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack".

It seems to me that if they don't stack on the same object, and that it's specifically worded that they don't, then it stands to reason that if you're receiving the bonuses on different objects they would, therefore, stack. is there another source of clarification on enhancement bonuses where it explicitly states that they don't?

I'm asking for a clarification of the way enhancement bonus stacking is worded in reference to objects. I was only using the claw blades as an example. It's clearly an erroneous one, but substituting the tailblade makes it an accurate example.

The question is about the the enhancement definition is worded. To clarify: If a ratfolk with the tailblade weapon has the tailblade enchanted to +5, will it then stack with an AoMF +5 according to the wording of the enhancement term?

I'm not terribly interested in intended, as I said in the title this is a RAW thread. And the question isn't about whether or not claw blades count as natural attacks. It's about whether the enhancement bonus would stack, seeing as they're two seperate objects. But, for the sake of discussion, we'll take the same situation, but use the ratfolk tailblade instead of the catfolk clawblade.


A tailblade is a small, sharp knife designed to be strapped to the tip of a wielder's tail.

Benefit: A ratfolk wielding a tailblade can make a tail attack, adding its Strength modifier to the tailblade's damage.

It takes a full-round action to strap on or remove a tailblade. The wearer can loosely attach the tailblade (without strapping it securely in place) as a move action, but using a loosely attached tailblade gives the wielder a –4 penalty on all attack rolls made with the weapon, and other creatures get a +4 bonus on disarm combat maneuver checks to disarm the tailblade.

Ratfolk are considered proficient with such attacks and can apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to tail attacks made with a tailblade. If used as part of a full attack action, attacks with a tailblade are considered secondary attacks."

So, in this "different" scenario, would the AoMF stack?

Captain Netz wrote:
Well considering that claw blades make your attacks light manufactured weapons and amulet of mighty fist doesn't enhance manufactured weapons no.

I believe that it changes the weapon type, not the attack type? It's still natural attacks, just changing the wording on the weapon. "change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon" Not "Change the attack type from natural to weapon attack"

Hey all, if I could get a definitive answer on this I'd appreciate it. I know the definition of enhancement bonus:

"An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks."

The key point here is on the same object. If I have an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 and the catfolk racial weapon Claw blades +5, will they stack, being different objects? For reference:


This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Claw Blades - Benefit: The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon. Catfolk with the cat's claws racial trait are proficient with this weapon. The claw blades can be enhanced like a masterwork weapon for the normal costs. The listed cost of the item is for one set of five claws for one hand.

Thorazeen wrote:

I have been rping since d&d 1st edition had come out in the 70's. I as well as many but not all the people I have gamed with have played single class characters. I have played a few computer rp games but prefer table top ones instead. IMO milti classing just seems like number crunching for the sake of having that godly character.

If that's what other people like to play but don't view it the same way as myself I would love to hear why. I am no way saying single class doesn't number crunch either

I like multiclassing, but I'm a minmaxer. Taking a level of oracle to add my cha to my ac instead of my Dex, then 2 levels of pally to do the same to my saves is generally too good to pass up, esp. since I almost always play a summoner. That's just me though :-D

I guess it's not that we're asking for an answer, as we are asking for a standardized, easy to use reference table that is the "official list" of all these values. The problem (I assume) is that they're going to have to change quite a few of the already stated values in order to match a linear progression model.

I just hope they get it done, this really needs to happen!

Aannnddd... I am 556 in the FAQ request list. Yay me!

This just came up last week with determining our brawlers damage if he ever got all the enchants and buffs he wants at level 20. I also play a natural attacks based summoner, and getting this clarified would help me immensely with that class.

Thanks for the post, hopefully we'll get an answer sometime soon! :D

I actually just got it figured out. My PC was assuming that he could Flurry of Blows and use his unarmed strike damage while making a shield attack, thus stacking the unarmed strike values with shield enhancements. As it turns out, you can only make an unarmed strike... unarmed lol, so this doesn't actually work. It is now a moot point. Thanks a ton for the help! :D

Alright, I see where you guys are coming from. I think that they shouldn't stack as well, but until there's a definitive ruling by Paizo about it, I'm going to be forced into going with RAW.

In reference to Pg 208/209, it fairly specifically says "spells" not anything about weapon/armor enhancements.

And I think this was my fault, but I'm referring to the Brawler's Unarmed Strike damage tables for calculating how the size affects the damage. From there, you can see that the unarmed strike damage of a large size level 20 brawler does 4d8 damage . Extrapolating from there with the stacking effects is where I'm getting the 8D8.

Hey all, I'm actually curious about this subject myself, I'm glad it's here. I'm DM'ing a campaign right now, and having a little trouble making a ruling on this subject.

We have a Shield Champion Brawler in the party. He wants to have Impact, Shield Spikes and Bashing on a large shield. He's telling me that those 3 qualities stack, therefore he's being treated as a gargantuan size for damage purposes. He claims that this allows for 1 shield attack to roll 8d8 for it's damage roll. Seeing as he says he can dual wield them, and put the speed enchant on them, he's claiming that with Flurry, dual wielding shields and speed he can get 9 attacks at level 20 that all deal 8d8 plus his modifiers. I'm just trying to figure out if this is accurate or not.

The ruling that we've had so far in the campaign is that as long as it passes RAW, it goes. Is there any official FAQ or resource, done by Paizo, that says this isn't possible?


Please, someone find a way for this to happen. I am calling upon the collective consciousness of these esteemed forums.


Awesome, thanks for the help guys. After I did this our gm ruled no more, so I can't do it again. It was really funny the first time though >.<

Anyone with experience with a summoner, what's your favorite monster to summon? Now that I can't use these anymore I need to figure out what else to use if my eidolon dies and we really need to kill something.

My other 2 party members are a Mage and a Fighter, respectively.

Alright, Another question about the Summoner here. I"m currently level 15 and was playing last night. My Eidolon ended up getting killed and my GM said we couldn't sleep, so I got to use the Summon Monster ability for the first time so far this campaign.


I'm level 15, so I got the level 8 one. I started looking through what it said I could summone, and I started taking a look at the elemental list. At this point in the night we were all a little tired and a little loopy, so I decided to use the level 6 version of the Elemental and summon the 1D4+1 number of them. I chose the Positive Energy huge elemental.

( ental-positive-energy-tohc/positive-energy-elemental-huge-tohc)

Of course I got 5 of them with my roll. We're all at pretty low health at this point, so I basically surround the party with these huge elementals and have them all use the Channel Energy ablity twice each. What I didn't realize is that you can actually kill something with overhealing? I didn't TPK us, thankfully, but it came really, really close lol.

My question is this: Given that everything I did up to this point is legal (I don't know if that's true but it looks good so far I think, please correct me if I'm wrong) does that mean that at level 15, 9 times a day (My Cha mod is +6) I can summon 1d4+1 of these heal bombs and send them out to wreak havoc? If that's the case, I wanted to run some numbers:

say an average of 3 of these guys get summoned. I send them in a little pile out to a group of enemies. All 3 of them use the Channel energy once (Move standard action, ability standard action) That means that that turn they heal themselves and everything around them for 15D6, right? So average of what, 90 HP? These things only have 95, so if those rolls go just a tiny bit high, they explode, dealing an extra 5D8 of healing to everything within 30 ft per elemental?

If I'm reading this correctly, and given just slightly over average rolls, I basically have a 15D6 + 15D8 of healbomb in a 30 ft radius 9 times a day, as a standard action? that I can use to kill NPC's through overhealing?

That seems a bit off, so please let me know what I did wrong, thanks! :D

Alright, thanks.

Thanks for the replies guys.

It says that claws can only be applied to limbs (legs) once. I'm assuming that's per evolution of the Limbs (legs) subtype. The quadraped comes with 2 sets already, then I added a 3rd set to allow for the 6 claws.

Thankfully my GM is allowing me to ignore that silly bite rule, I'm able to just use the 6 claws.

School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines."

From what I can understand it's a 10' radius emanating out from all points of the dragon. Anything within 10 feet of it is in the field. Am I reading it wrong?

Well, we just ran into an ancient red dragon, and it cast this spell. Now 80% of our damage and abilities are completely useless. The party has a Wizard, me (summoner) and a fighter, and we all have magic items boosting our stats. Without those items and without my eidolon or the wizard casting spells there's absolutely no way we can beat this thing. It just seems silly to have a spell that literally negates over half of the classes that exist in this game. If nothing magic can work, that takes away items, any spellcasters, healing, buffs... Like, 80% of the game is worthless. Seems... a bit silly that it exists, I guess.

Well, that's unfortunate. So basically my entire class is useless because of one spell? That seems... balanced. Lol.

Huh. That's a really, really good idea. I think I might do that :D

Other question, only peripherally related: Does an Anti-Magic Field negate the Amulet of Mighty Fists enhancement bonuses, along with all the buffs on my Eidolon? Assuming the buffs are already cast.

Damn. Really wish I would have seen that stupid stacking rule. that's a big hit :(

Is there any other way to get his strength up, other than making him Huge?

Eidolon V 14.0 (level 14)

Strength = 35 (+12) (base 14, Large Evolution +8, Natural Increase +5, Ability Score Increase +2 [not from evolution, part of class skills like evasion etc] Magic Belt +6)
Dexterity = 17 (+3)
Constitution = 17 (+3)
Intelligence = 10
Wisdom = 7 (-2)
Charisma = 11

HP = 134
AC = 31 (Base 10, Quadraped +2, Natural Armor Increase [x3] +6, Natural Progression Increase +10, Dexterity +3)
BaB = +11

Improved Critical
Multistrike (Didn't use a slot, gets for free)
Power Attack
Critical Focus
Weapon Focus: Claws
Death From Above
Iron Will

Fortitude = +14
Will = +7
Reflex = +14

Belt of +6 Strength
Amulet of Mighty Fists +4
Cloak of Resistance +4

Evolutions:22 (19 points @ level 14, 3 extra points from Summoner Feats)

Large = 4
Claws (x3) = 3
Improved Natural Armor (x3) = 3
Pounce = 1
Limbs (Legs x1) = 2
Rend = 2
Magic Weapon = 1
Fast Healing = 4
Flight = 2

Base attacks (no buffs, no charge, no move, no Power Attack, Full Attack Action)

Claws Attack Roll (x6) = D20 +27 (+11[BaB]+12[Str]+4[AoMF]+1[Wf:Cl]-1[Large])
- Damage = D6 + 16 (12[Str]+4[AoMF])
- Rend = D8 + 18 (1.5x12[Str])

Fully Buffed First Round Charge (Death From Above (+5 attack), Greater Heroism (+4 attack), Bull's Strength(+4 Strength, +2 Attack/Damage), Diviner's Fortune(+7 Attack), Power Attack(-3 attack, +6 damage), Evolution Surge Strength(+2 Str, +1 Attack/Damage))

Claws Attack Roll (x6) = D20 + 43 (11[BaB]+15[Str]+5[DFA]+7[DivFor]+4[GrHer]+4[AoMF]+1[Wf:Cl]-3[PowAt]-1[Large])
- Damage = D6 + 25 (15[Str]+4[AoMF]+6[PowAt])

Not using the bite, have 6 attacks allowed @ level 14 so just gave it 6 sets of claws. I think I actually got that one right, let me know if you see anything wrong. Thanks again for looking over all of this :D

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. Lemme do a rework then with what I have, our Gm let me redo some of the illegal stuff I had taken and the Death or Glory lol.

But yeah, I explained the errata and that it was supposed to be 1 rend per turn, not 2, but our GM likes throwing really high CR stuff at us so he doesn't seem to mind. He also gave our fighter a +10 weapon @ level 12, and our wizard has an 18D8 orb that is unmitigated damage once every 3 days, and it's usually a little more than 3 days in between big fights. So we're very glass-cannon-ish, but it's been fun lol. Taking on the more simple CR 20 stuff at level 13 has been kinda funny.

Posting rework momentarily. I did level to 14, so the stats are gonna be kinda different than before.

@ Shroudb: I CAN do 2 rends a round, my GM said so ^.^ and technically, if you go by RAW, it does trigger for each 2 claws that hit. Also, I am usually fully buffed before each fight, and we don't have more than 2 big fights in a day at this point in the campaign. It's just the way our GM has been designing things right now, so I do almost always have full armor, Heroism, Stoneskin, the works up on the Eidolon. The 2 things you were right about is the charging every turn and the Diviner's fortune, those are just for round 1. But what's been happening is that we're usually getting a round to "prebuff" before we go into a fight (There's actual an in campaign reason for this, just don't want to type it all out here).

You gotta remember, I'm barely keeping up with our fighter and our wizard. Our wizard was given an adult Bronze Dragon as his familiar for goodness sakes, and our fighter somehow aquired a CR 9 wisp thing as a pet. Couple that with a +10 greataxe that the fighter is carrying that he got for free, the orb of massive damage the wizard got for free, it only seems fair that I get a round to get all my buffs going lol. I'm struggling just to keep up. And we haven't been going against too many spellcasters, it's been more big stompy stuff than anything. SO the dominate hasn't come into play. But I do get +4 morale bonus to my will save against enchantment effects, so I'd be @ a +11 to that save. Not great, but better than nothing lol.

Hey all, thanks again for the prompt and accurate replies, can't tell you how much it's been appreciated.

My GM did end up going with the RAW ruling for the rend, so I do now get a rend trigger every 2 claw attacks that connect. It's been kinda fun. But, I have 2 questions now. Erm... a question, and then a concern I suppose.

Question: With the Bleed ability evolution in regards to damage reduction; If I ignore the targets damage reduction, does that also mean that my bleed does as well? Also, if I don't ignore the damage reduction, does my bleed count as a seperate source of damage for triggering the targets damage reduction, or is the bleed just additional damage tacked on to the claw attacks? I.E if a creature has DR 10 adamantite and I don't count as having adamantite weapons, does my bleed (D6) just get completely ignored, or does it act as additional damage on my claw attack for calculating damage?

2nd, a concern of sorts. So I've never played an RPG like this before. I've played a ton of video games and card games, but no D&D or pathfinder or anything like this, so I'm assuming I'm doing something wrong here. But. Basically at level 13 my Eidolon is smashing CR 18+ creatures into bits, and it's kind of making my other party members a little ... irritated. We have a fighter with a +10 weapon and a Wizard with an Orb of Awesome (16D8 unmitigated damage once every 3 days) and I'm crushing them in the numbers in combat. I understand that's not what everything is about in this game, but it's been a big part of it and I don't want people to be irritated with me.

Anyways, Imma post my build down here and the numbers I'm getting off it. If there's any ways I could beg y'all to take a glance and let me know if I'm doing something wrong I'd appreciate it. By my calculations, given optimal circumstances and fully buffed I'm @ +50 to my attack rolls on all claw attacks, and (D8 +29)x4 damage on claws, plus rend triggers. I'm easily averaging over 100 pts of damage a round, sometimes upwards of 200. This seems a little off, so I wanted to get my math checked. Thanks!

Level 13 Eidolon:


Total evolution points=23 (Base 17 plus 6 in feats)
Hit Points= 123


Strength = 35 (+12) (14[base]+5[Level increase]+8[Large]+6[Magic Belt]+2[Ability score increase x2])
Dexterity = 17 (+3) (14[Base]+5[Level increase]-2[Large])
Constitution = 17 (+3) (13[Base]+4[Large])
Intelligence = 10
Wisdom = 7
Charisma = 11

Armor Class = 32 (10[Base]+2[Quadraped]+10[Level Increase]+6[Natural Armor Evolution x3]+3[Dexterity]+2[Large]-1[Size Penalty]

Base Attack Bonus = +10

Attacks: Base (Including Power Attack)

Claws (To Hit) (x4) = D20 + 24 (10[BaB]+1[Weapon Focus]+12[Str]+4[AoMF]-2 [Multiattack Penalty]-1[Size Penalty])

- Damage = D8 (1d4 Plus Improved Claws plus Large evolution) + 24 (12[Str]+4[AoMF]+8[Power Attack])

Bite (To Hit) (x1) = D20 + 24 (10[BaB]+1[Weapon Focus]+12[Str]+4[AoMF]-2 [Multiattack Penalty]-1[Size Penalty])

- Damage = D8 + 14 (6[1/2 Str Mod]+4[AoMF]+4[Power Attack]

Rend = D8+18 (1.5 x Strength Mod[12])

Minimum damage if all attacks hit (about a 90% so far) = 153
((1D8 [1] +24) x4 =100) + (1D8 [1] + 14 = 15) + (1d8+18 [19]x2 = 38)

Optimal (Previous numbers, +charging a large or larger evil outsider target and fully buffed) *Side note: These are regular numbers, for the record. Most of our opponents are evil outsiders, and the mage is putting Diviner's Fortune on the Eidolon once a round, so this isn't a pipe dream type thing, this happens about 75% of our fights.

AC = 49 (32 [Base]+4[Mage Armor]+5[Barkskin]+4[Shield]+2[Protection from Evil]+2[Eagle Soul]) +50% miss chance (Displacement)

Attacks: Includes Power Attack, Death From Above, Greater Heroism, Diviner's Fortune (From our level 13 Wizard) Death or Glory, Bull's Strength, Evolution Surge, Eagle Soul.

Claws (To Hit) (x4) = D20 + 50 (10[BaB]+1[Weapon Focus]+16[Str]+4[AoMF]+4[Death or Glory]+5[Death From Above]+4(Greater Heroism]+1[Evolution Surge:Strength Increase]+2[Eagle Soul]+6[Diviner's Fortune]-2 [Multiattack Penalty]-1[Size Penalty])

- Damage = D8 (1d4 Plus Improved Claws plus Large evolution) + 29 (17[Str]+4[AoMF]+8[Power Attack])

Bite (To Hit) (x1) = D20 + 49 (10[BaB]+16[Str]+4[AoMF]+4[Death or Glory]+5[Death From Above]+4(Greater Heroism]+1[Evolution Surge:Strength Increase]+2[Eagle Soul]+6[Diviner's Fortune]-2 [Multiattack Penalty]-1[Size Penalty])

- Damage = D8 + 16 (8[1/2 Str Mod]+4[AoMF]+4[Power Attack])

Rend = D8+24 (1.5 x Strength Mod[16])

Minimum damage if all attacks hit (about a 90% so far) = 187
((1D8 [1] +29) x4 =120) + (1D8 [1] + 16 = 17) + (1d8+24 [25]x2 = 50)

Items: Belt of +6 Strength
Amulet of Mighty Fists +4

Feats: Death or Glory
Multistrike (free)
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Weapon Focus: Claws
Death From Above

Evolutions: (23 Point Total)
Large = 4
Claws (x2) = 2
Improved Damage: Claws = 1
Improved Natural Armor (x3) = 3
Pounce = 1
Rend = 2
Magic Weapon: Claws = 1
Fast Healing = 4
Sacrifice = 3
Flight = 2

That just seems a little insane to me, and my party is starting to get a little disgruntled. Anyways, anything that I'm doing wrong please let me know. Also, thanks a ton for reading that entire wall o' text, I know it was a lot :D

Well, now I have 2 very different replies here to look at O.o

Ryn, I read your earlier post about this very question. I guess it looks like I'm going to have to go with what my GM rules on this one, because I could see it both ways. Sure, the UMR says it can only hit once per round, but this isn't the UMR, this is a separate text. I'm gonna assume that he'll rule that it can only happen once per round, but it's pretty unclear according to the text which it is.

Iterman, I'll refer you to the difference in the 2 abilities about that extra attack thing. UMR says "This attack deals an additional amount of damage" as in, it's a separate attack and would take up an attack slot, I guess. On the new one though, "Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack"

So Imma go with the fact that it's extra damage only, not counting as an extra attack, seeing as it specifically doesn't call it an attack in any way. Therefore there wouldn't be any restrictions about number of attacks per round according to this text. At least until my GM shuts me down XD

Thanks for the info guys :D

Oh, another question. When people refer to RAW and RAI, what is that referring to?


Alright, got it, thanks!

Ok, I have another question now, if that's alright :D (You know what they say about the curse of helpfulness :P )

This is about the Rend Evolution. For reference:

" - Rend (Ex)

Source: Advanced Player's Guide

An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution."

So does this mean that I just pick which claw attack I want, and use it's damage plus the strength modifier? I.E if I rolled 2 attacks and both of them hit, and one rolls 1 on a D8 and one rolls an 8, can I pick the 8, add the 1.5 times strength modifier and call it good as the additional damage? Or am I basically supposed to roll an entirely new claw attack if this triggers, then add the modifier and use that?

The other question is if I hit with 4 claws in a turn, do I get 2 triggers off this?

Thanks again guys, much appreciated :D

Well, that's awesome. Thanks guys! This'll really help move things along I think O.o

Hey all, first time poster here. Also first time tabletop roleplayer, just started my first campaign a couple of weeks ago. It's been a lot of fun! :D

Anyways, I'm using a Summoner for our campaign. There's only 3 of us plus our GM (He doesn't have a pc). My friends are playing a duergar fighter and a tiefling wizard. We're currently level 9. What we seem to be running into problems with is healing. We don't have a cleric or paladin or any other healer, and we're having to come up with some slightly more creative workarounds.

My question is about the 2 Eidolon evolutions, Sacrifice and Fast Healing. For reference:

" - Sacrifice (Su) -

Source: Champions of Purity

An eidolon can sacrifice its own health to heal another creature.

As a standard action, the eidolon can sacrifice up to 2 hit points per Hit Die and then touch the target creature, thereby healing the creature for half the amount sacrificed."

" - Fast Healing (Su) -

Source: Advanced Player's Guide

An eidolon’s body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1. The eidolon heals 1 point of damage each round, just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost due to starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow the eidolon to regrow lost body parts (or to reattach severed parts). Fast healing functions as long as the eidolon is alive. This fast healing does not function when the eidolon is not on the same plane as its summoner. This healing can be increased by 1 per round for every 2 additional evolution points spent (maximum 5). The summoner must be at least 11th level before selecting this evolution."

So, it seems like I can basically make my eidolon able to heal a pc for half of the eidolon's hit dice worth of points every round, as long as it has hit points left to give. That's easy enough. The hard question is, does Fast healing also keep going out of combat? I mean, flavor wise it seems like it does, it's not like there's a keyword or activation ritual to trigger it. I'm working under the assumption that it's a passive ability that just keeps going.

If that's the case, and if sacrifice works the way I think it does, then in between combats can my eidolon basically just touch a PC, heal them to full, then regenerate all it's own hp back over time? It seems that all these action take a round to perform/trigger. If a round is 6 seconds, then it seems that I could basically be healing a pc for 11 HP per 6 seconds, and regenerating 1 HP per 6 seconds back into the eidolon. Given about an hour it looks like I can just heal the eidolon and an ally back to full.

So, does this work the way I think it does, or does fast healing only work in combat?

Thanks! :D

(I understand that I can't do this until level 11, but it's something I was hoping to get clarified before i get there)