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1. The cleric will detect as evil due to the Cleric's Aura class feature. You'll know something is up.
2. If the Cleric player knew you were going to play a Paladin, you need to sit down and have a talk with him about how much of a spoiler he decided to be. You state that he was experienced with 3rd ed. That means he HAD to know about the Paladin Code.
3. You can use the Greater Good clause of the Paladin Code to temporarily work with said Cleric. Note the "temporary" part of that.
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It depends on the characters and what they do.
The gods have a much more complicated relationship going on than just us vs. them, and this trickles down into their faithful. They duel in more ways than through violence, and redemption/temptation is a thing in this setting.
To start with, at least it's not Rovagug, which pretty much would force the issue. Lamashtu is not an easy one to justify hanging out with though. That's going to hinge entirely on the players. If the cleric is just a stereotypical Lamashtan, things are not going to work out. If the cleric takes a much more nuanced approach, and the setting material offers plenty of possibilities to work with, things could work even if there's tension(be it the good kind or bad).
Talking with the GM and the new player about everyone being able to play nicely together might be your best bet. This could go in a really cool direction or it could go horribly horribly bad.
Also, props on playing the paladin as a shining example rather than a swordpoint converter. :)
edit-Oh wait, he is experienced with the game... Talking with him and the GM about being able to play nicely might be a must for a different reason now.
Been down that road before with other characters purposefully making life hell for the good PCs. It's not fun, and it doesn't tend to end well.
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Best route is to talk to the player out of game.
If the player is amenable to the situation, you could even RP his half-orc converting to a more game-friendly choice of god.
He is CN, after all, which means that there are definitely tenets of Lamashtu's CE faith that don't mesh perfectly with his own morals. Gorum or Calistria might better suit his CN ideals, or he might find a CG or N diety like Cayden Cailean or Gozreh that is sympatico with his half-orcs ethos/alignment/personality/interests.
An in-character discussion about such matters could be fun, for those two characters, at least (more so for others if they also get involved), dealing with how the cleric's non-evil nature has left him perhaps feeling like the 'odd man out' among his fellow (primarily CE) Lamashtans, like they don't respect him for being 'soft' or 'squeamish' or whatever, for not being quite as into the bloodier or creepier aspects of the hardcore 'base' of her clergy. (Like, yanno, bestiality.)
Guiding him to a CN church could be seen as setting him on a path that isn't just better for the paladin, or better for inter-party relations, but also better for him, since he's no longer 'rowing against the current,' and has a better chance of being respected for who he is and for what he believes as a Gorumite or Calistrian.
Guiding him to a CG church would be perhaps more 'ideal' from the Paladin's perspective, but would have the exact same effect, of putting him in the position of being 'odd man out' in a church that is predominantly CG, instead of CE. (Granted, the 'hazing' for unorthodox priests of Cayden Cailean is probably less unpleasant than it might be for unorthodox priests of Lamashtu...)
All that being said, it's entirely possible that the region has a substantial number of CN Lamashtu worshippers, or perhaps even a local shrine or religious population that is dominated by a charismatic CN sort who focuses more on propitiating her to stave off her unpleasant moods, and on her less baleful and ancillary aspects, such as a goddess of fertility or wild animals. If that's the case, the half-orc could be seen not as 'rollerskating uphill,' but as a point of light in an otherwise brutish and ugly faith, and perhaps something that the paladin should *encourage.* If people are going to be worshipping Lamashtu anyway, surely he would want to promote the non-evil branch of the faith, rather than end up running them off and leaving the entire church in the hands of the *evil* ones...
It might be unrealistic or idealistic or naive to think that a small group of non-evil adherents in a predominantly CE faith could make any real dent, or 'change the system from within,' but if *anyone* is going to be tilting at windmills and taking on the 'idealistic' crusades, or doing something as 'unrealistic' as charging into hell itself to rescue a falsely imprisoned soul, it's going to be a paladin.
Smite the bugger into toe jam!!
What Domains was he interested in?
I'm sure I (or you) could find something that has both that isn't one of the absolute worst fits for a Paladin in the party.
Groetus is Chaotic Neutral and has Madness and Chaos.
Sivanah is Neutral and has Madness and Trickery.
Gyronna also has Madness and Chaos, but is also Chaotic Evil so isn't much better really. At least she's not an overt "Ultimate Adversary" like Lamashtu is.
Think he'd be interested in "converting" to any of those?
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Sivanah is Neutral and has Madness and Trickery.
Y'know...this one would be a very easy retcon. And he could even continue passing himself off as a Lamashtan for a while longer yet!
Some of the old ones and/or the outer gods are CN if I remember right.
Slay the beast and leave its body in the fields as an example.
Just have him play up her "mother of monsters" aspect as someone who welcomes what other people shun. He could be always trying to redeem evil creatures and even convince people like the paladin to look twice at their prejudices against "evil" races. I see some awesome role-playing possibilities here.
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just remember that the player is doing nothing wrong, the RAW rules say that a cleric can be one step from his god, that means as a CN he is following the rules right.
Also note that the paladin class has absolutely *zero* restrictions about adventuring with neutral folk, regardless of their race (even an 'evil' race like tieflings or drow) or nationality (even an 'evil' nation like Cheliax) or religion (again, including an 'evil' religion).
The *only* restriction back in 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition was that the *character themself not be evil.* And now, in Pathfinder, even that can be set aside if they are working together for the greater good.
In Golarion, paladins are a *recommended class* for the Hellknight order / faction, which has more than a few devotees of Asmodeus among them. In write ups of NPCs of the order, a fair number are not only paladins, but are *leaders* of different sub-groups within the Hellknights, which means that they are able to continue on as Paladins while in nearly constant contact with Asmodeus worshippers (whom they, most likely, try on a daily basis to steer to a more righteous interpretation on the value of law and order).
There is, per the rules *and* the setting flavor, no reason at all why a paladin of Iomedae would *have* to create interparty tension over a neutral PC worshipping an evil god.
It is entirely up to the player to make up a reason for there to be friction or teary recriminations or PVP, and there's nothing in the game forcing this sort of interparty dynamic.
Playing a paladin can be a challenge, at times, but this is not one of those times, unless the paladin player wants it to be, in which case it is the paladin player who will be the one bringing the drama for no reason other than to sow discord and ruin the game experience for others.
It would be a poor first impression of Pathfinder if this new player experiences the very worst aspects of the game, in their first few sessions, with another player at the table making up reasons to attack their character, or, as has already happened multiple times in this thread, suggest that they are some sort of troublemaker or griefer for choosing the character they did.
If a player joins a game and decides to play a non-evil drow (gag, spit), and a paladin player retroactively decides that his paladin code forbids him to associate with non-evil members of normally evil races, that's not the 'good drows' fault for being an Eilistraee-loving weenie, that's on the paladin player for using a faulty interpretation of the paladin's code as a bludgeon to impose his will on other players.
I would talk to the player, maybe he's already planing to convert to another faith during the character development. Then it's a good start for a great RP story. Get some personal bounds into this (e.g. his char is yours half brother) and it even becomes awesome (if your DM works with you on it).
he did a good job at being CN rather than evil
Based on this... CONVERT HIm (ingame)^^
Set, I think you're being a bit liberal about the "greater good" clause.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good.
Remember, the cleric will Detect as evil because their deity is evil. Additionally, Lamashtan practices are pretty vile by most Paladin standards, even when flavored nice under a CN character.
Clockwork Orange isn't exactly the best comparison to a paladin's moral code I would think...
An antipaladin, now ...
HE should handle him over to a cliff with a steep drop then release him
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I dunno, I always figured if they encountered each other out in the world, it would be war, but if they ended up in tavern together it would be sort of like Crowley and Aziraphale in Good Omens. :-)
There's also a Lawful Good god in the Dragon Empires (Tian Xia) that has the madness domain.
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HE should handle him over to a cliff with a steep drop then release him
John Matrix isn't really a good place to look for paladin-like behavior.
Also, there are some folks in the setting that are actually dedicated to converting their god. Who knows?
If Little Alex (or a paladin, for that matter) must perforce do good, without being able make the concious choise to do so, then are they any better than a clockwork orange?
There's a rather nasty curse: Code of the Paladin, roll yer Will save! ^____^
Sounds like he chose the god based on mechanics, domains and weapon, after all i think most of the good gods have a bunch of weenie stuff too, makes that evil ones look more attractive mechanically.
so...he channels negative energy too....
it really depends on what he does in game.
IF you never have a reason to detect evil on im you might never know.
In fact you might never WANT to know: "IVe always had my suspicions about grog... yet he is a loyal companion"
IT also depends on how your DM thinks spells are cast in game...whats the verbal component to flame strike? "shuzzzzaaaaaah!" or "BY LAMASHTU I SMITE THEE WITH UNHOLY FIRE?"
that could make a big difference.
Paladin to other PC :what did he say?
Other PC: ERrr ummm I think he said a quarter past two.... is it that late? gosh i need to get going...
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Sounds like he chose the god based on mechanics, domains and weapon, after all i think most of the good gods have a bunch of weenie stuff too, makes that evil ones look more attractive mechanically.
so...he channels negative energy too....
And if he indeed just choose Lamashtu for the cool domains and favored weapon options, then a more pragmatic out of character argument for change could be that channel negative energy blows monkey nuggests compared to the utility of channel positive energy.
Even with blowing half your point buy on Charisma and your starting feat on Selective Channeling, negative energy channeling is almost never usable in a standard party, since you'll have a minimum of three allies, one of which will probably have a familiar, mount, animal companion, etc. And, unlike positive energy channeling, negative energy channeling has a save for half effectiveness. Every round it's a choice, which ally has the most hit points, so I can 'accidentally' damage them as well. Meh.
Although it is funky that the more of your party dies, the more you can actually use one of your class abilities, sort of spitting in the face of whatever is TPKing your group...
Sounds like he chose the god based on mechanics, domains and weapon, after all i think most of the good gods have a bunch of weenie stuff too, makes that evil ones look more attractive mechanically.
so...he channels negative energy too....
And if he indeed just choose Lamashtu for the cool domains and favored weapon options, then a more pragmatic out of character argument for change could be that channel negative energy blows monkey nuggests compared to the utility of channel positive energy.
Even with blowing half your point buy on Charisma and your starting feat on Selective Channeling, negative energy channeling is almost never usable in a standard party, since you'll have a minimum of three allies, one of which will probably have a familiar, mount, animal companion, etc. And, unlike positive energy channeling, negative energy channeling has a save for half effectiveness. Every round it's a choice, which ally has the most hit points, so I can 'accidentally' damage them as well. Meh.
Although it is funky that the more of your party dies, the more you can actually use one of your class abilities, sort of spitting in the face of whatever is TPKing your group...
Oh dont get me wrong, I wasn't thinking the channel negative energy thing was good... I was just thinking out loud sort....hmmmm he channels negative energy.... was trying to think of ways the paladin would get the 'hint' he worships an evil god.... everyones flesh searing in a radius of the half orc might give him a religion check to figure out...what just happened.... then once he knew, he would know... only way TO do that is worship an evil god.
However the character still isnt evil..... he's CN....it's an interesting conundrum.
^Neutral deities grant Negative Energy too if the Cleric is Neutral as well.
^Neutral deities grant Negative Energy too if the Cleric is Neutral as well.
Hmmm yes well this is why I as still thinking about it.....
Sounds like a candidate for converting!
Groetus is Chaotic Neutral and has Madness and Chaos.
Sivanah is Neutral and has Madness and Trickery.
Gyronna also has Madness and Chaos, but is also Chaotic Evil so isn't much better really. At least she's not an overt "Ultimate Adversary" like Lamashtu is.
Think he'd be interested in "converting" to any of those?
That's exactly what I was going to suggest!
He might also want to consider one of these, all of which can be found on the same site that Rynjin links to:
Desna
Calistria
Cayden Cailean
Gorum
Groetus
Sivanah
Irori
Kurgess
Arshea
Besmara
the guy isnt meta gaming. he's not doing anything IN game without of out game knowledge, he's just sayin awww crap....
Truthfully, if someone knew there was already a paladin in the party, why start this.... a pally and a positive energy channel (pick a god any god) would have been a great and powerful combination.... instead of a potential road block....it's just and angsty choice is all
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the guy isnt meta gaming. he's not doing anything IN game without of out game knowledge, he's just sayin awww crap....
Truthfully, if someone knew there was already a paladin in the party, why start this.... a pally and a positive energy channel (pick a god any god) would have been a great and powerful combination.... instead of a potential road block....it's just and angsty choice is all
Actually its a great conflict resolution scenario.
sure just not great in a starting party of less than experienced players.
In CoT the Iconic party is Lem, Seelah, Seltyiel and ....fudge i cant recall it doesnt matter,
Lem is CG, Seltyiel is LE and Seelah is a Paladin.... thats got to make for some great party dynamics and the Devs put them in the party on purpose.
It specifically states in write up that seelah intends to convert seltyiel, thinks he's redeemable.
Technically she COULD smite him for 2/3 of the AP.
I think thats devs saying paladins CAN put up with a lot. As theoretically, they run through the whole AP (most of their careers) together.
Goals of the Goddess Lamashtu (from Faiths of Corruption):
Your goal is nothing less than the destruction of the civilized races, to tear them down and replace them with the monstrous spawn of the Mother. You want to see the false beauty of the world ravaged and the true face of reality exposed: a struggle for dominance, a never-ending paean of bloody joy devoted to Lamashtu, destroying the innocent and defiling the works of proud hands. You rape and pillage and seek only to spread the corruption of your kind.
You are a realist, and have no elaborate justifications for your faith—the world is deformed and sick, and those who try to gloss over this fact are not just misinformed, but liars who drag others into their error. Your tribe and other members of your faith are the only ones with the strength to see this truth. If you are a male, you spread your seed as widely as possible. If you are a female, you are equally promiscuous, and see all birth as the painful gift it is. Neither of you cares much about the race of your rutting partner; any monstrous offspring, no matter the specifics, pleases Lamashtu.
If the cleric is not seeking to further the goals of Lamashtu, then said cleric will be losing spells. The key here is not that the Cleric is a devotee of an ultimately evil god... it's that the Cleric is a devotee specifically of Lamashtu.
So in answer to the OP - no, they are most definitely not going to get along.
But then, in the most recent AP, the Devs put out a LN Cleric of Zon Kuthon, who channels positive energy and has a kinder gentler view of his god, with pussywillows and lillys in his hair.....
It's semi frustrating really.... because there's these write ups, then exact opposites... which promote someone to say well my character can be like that.... the pussywillow death priest of Zonkuthon PrC....someone do the write up
By RAW he has an evil aura, and must channel negative energy if his deity is evil. If he's only after the domains consider talking it over with him and switching to a neutral and perhaps using the separatist archetype to get the other domain.
If he's set on playing a demonlord worshiper let him, watch him closely in game and try to separate ingame knowledge from out of game knowledge. Also speak with the DM about alignment.. Still sooner or later a quarrel will ensue for certain...
I'm kind of curious how nobody raised any objections when this character was first being created. I can envision plenty of games where 100% of the party is CE where it still wouldn't be at all appropriate to play a cleric of Lamashtu. That's the sort of thing you'd really need to get 100% of the players on board with in advance, if only to make sure they're on board with introducing the themes such a character would introduce into the game if played properly.
Also, how would you not know who they worship? If they aren't being actively secretive about it, the holy symbol should give it away.
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Given the goals and description of Lamashtu's faith In surprised that the GM would have allowed the character to be created.
I can see one of 2 reasons -
1) The GM hates the Pally Player or
2) The GM hates the Cleric player.
Seriously people this should not even BE a discussion - either the Pally player has to leave the party (and return as a recurring NPC out to save his fellows by destroying the Cleric)or the Cleric needs to change totally as far as his choice of God or leave the party (and likewise be out to destroy the Paladin).
There can be no compromise without either the Pally becoming a fighter or the Cleric losing their spells. Paladins DON'T have the option when it comes to followers of an evil God ESPECIALLY one whose tenets revolve around destroying Order and replacing it with Chaos, not just civilization but the very natural order of creation ...
Even Hellknights hunt Demons and their followers, and you are going to tell me that a Paladin is going to sit around and accept a Chaotic Evil God's mortal agent to associate with him?
And just as importantly the Cleric should be doing EVERYTHING in his power to corrupt such a shining example of Order like the Paladin - To do otherwise is going against the very reason of his faith!
In Pathfinder faith has POWER, the Gods are REAL. You follow their dictates in order to gain their power and blessings, in the case of a Cleric or Paladin it is the very reason for your life, you do NOT turn a blind eye just for convenience's sake.
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To the OP : how come the GM felt that this character would be able to fit in the same party as your Paladin without even talking with you about it beforehand ?
Better check with the GM why he allowed this and how he expected your character to react. Maybe the whole potential conflict issue plays right into the GM's hands to tell the story he has in his mind (for example a classic case of the sacred union of lifetime enemies against something that would destroy everyone, a la Sarenrae + Asmodeus vs Rovagug).