Of course, you now have your magic device in one hand and your tool in the other.
Are you planning on attacking opponents with your tool?
Better yet, I created a "crystal-encrusted leather sleeve" which is attached to each wand... i just pay 50g per wand I use... I use up the wand, I place the sleeve on my new wand..
Boom!
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Of course, you now have your magic device in one hand and your tool in the other.
Are you planning on attacking opponents with your tool?
It doesnt say anywhere that your tool has to be handheld. It could be a book that you memorized and only need to look up info every now and then. It could be what ever your imagimation can come up with.
Depends what the tool is. I've flavored them as various objects depending what the skill in question was. Glasses/goggles for Perception, shoes for Acrobatics, prayer beads for Knowledge: Religion, off the top of my head. If the tool's not a hand-held item it wouldn't get in the way, if it is then yeah you're SOL for attacking that round unless you're just casting from the wand/whatever.
EDIT: And ninjaed by much better and/or funnier responses =P
I don't know why you guys are arguing about glitterdust, considering it's on the Magus's spell list too. In fact, if you need more than one glitterdust per day, a Magus can just recall it.
In fact, Magi do get several utility spells. Just first level and they can cast grease, silent image, mount, feather fall, jump, and obscuring mist. Not as great a diversity as a wizard, but they can also do some noncombat magic stuff too.
And if there are some wizard utility spells you just can't do without, there's always spell blending.
They have Use Magic Device so buy yourself some scrolls and wands...
In fact, because they have Use Magic Device, they are one of the top classes when it comes toutility .
A wizard is great but Use Magic Device gives you access to "all" forms of magic.'They have Use Magic Device'? You mean, they get +3 to UMD but don't otherwise use CHA.
A magus is pretty much going to have a lower INT than a Wizard, so maxing UMD has more trade-offs for magus than wizard, and a wizard has less need of physical stats than a magus so is more able to increase CHA if they want to.
Sure, go ahead and invest in UMD and use wands/scrolls with it, but it's not really anything special to Magus.
Anybody playing with Traits will be able to get a Class Skill bonus in whatever skill they want, it's hardly a unique class ability, and nobody is prevented from investing in non-Class Skills anyways.The idea of 'UMD is a Class Skill' negating the need for spell list seems absurd.
Why not remove Heal and Cure spells from Cleric, those spells still exist abstractly, so they can just UMD them.
If people see/want to have certain spells with a class, they want to have those on the spell list, not get +3 to UMD for Class Skill.But alot of people like Magus as-is, and it does what it does as-is pretty well.
12 cha (1) + 1 rank + Dangerously Curious (1) + 3 (Trained) + 2 (Masterwork tool) = 8
Hmmmm + 8 with minimal investment.
Didnt try very hard did you?
?????
You wrote: "because they have Use Magic Device, they are one of the top classes when it comes to utility"I addressed the actual mechanics of 'having UMD' as a Class Skill. It's just not a big deal whether you have it or not, Magus aren't any worse at it than anybody (and they have the ranks to do so with a decent INT), but they aren't especially good.
You mentioned Dangerously Curious. Well, since that itself gives you UMD as a Class Skill, it removes the Magus Class Factor completely. ...Exactly what I was referring to when I wrote than anybody can get a Class Skill via Trait.
You seem to have taken my post as 'Maguses can't possibly ever get a decent UMD score'. ...That wasn't my point.
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They have Use Magic Device so buy yourself some scrolls and wands...
In fact, because they have Use Magic Device, they are one of the top classes when it comes toutility .
A wizard is great but Use Magic Device gives you access to "all" forms of magic.'They have Use Magic Device'? You mean, they get +3 to UMD but don't otherwise use CHA.
A magus is pretty much going to have a lower INT than a Wizard, so maxing UMD has more trade-offs for magus than wizard, and a wizard has less need of physical stats than a magus so is more able to increase CHA if they want to.
Sure, go ahead and invest in UMD and use wands/scrolls with it, but it's not really anything special to Magus.
Anybody playing with Traits will be able to get a Class Skill bonus in whatever skill they want, it's hardly a unique class ability, and nobody is prevented from investing in non-Class Skills anyways.The idea of 'UMD is a Class Skill' negating the need for spell list seems absurd.
Why not remove Heal and Cure spells from Cleric, those spells still exist abstractly, so they can just UMD them.
If people see/want to have certain spells with a class, they want to have those on the spell list, not get +3 to UMD for Class Skill.But alot of people like Magus as-is, and it does what it does as-is pretty well.
12 cha (1) + 1 rank + Dangerously Curious (1) + 3 (Trained) + 2 (Masterwork tool) = 8
Hmmmm + 8 with minimal investment.
Didnt try very hard did you??????
You wrote: "because they have Use Magic Device, they are one of the top classes when it comes to utility"
I addressed the actual mechanics of 'having UMD' as a Class Skill. It's just not a big deal whether you have it or not, Magus aren't any worse at it than anybody (and they have the ranks to do so with a decent INT), but they aren't especially good.
You mentioned Dangerously Curious. Well, since that itself gives you UMD as a Class Skill, it removes the Magus Class Factor...
To make a long story short, you just moved the goslposts.
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How so?
I responded to your post which said because Magus have UMD as a Class Skill they are a top class when it came to utility.
Perhaps Magus may otherwise be a top class when it comes to utility, but I was addressing the validity of 'having UMD as a Class Skill' being relevant to that.
Your means of arriving at a +8 modifier at 1st level (I never brought up the skill modifier) involved a Trait (available to anybody) which itself makes UMD a Class Skill, negating any unique benefit from Magus 'having UMD'. Any class can trivially have the exact same modifier you came up with. So how does that make Magus 'a top class when it comes to utility' (via UMD)? (AFAIK, MW Tools are also usable by any class)
I don't understand why you think I'm moving the goalposts, when I'm making the exact same point I previously did.
UMD as a Class Skill is available by Trait, so it isn't enough to make any class 'top class at utility'.
The best thing Magus' have going for UMD would be Wand Wielder, letting them apply their INT to DC, but that would no longer be 'utility' by my understanding of that term's usage... Certainly when the entire reason 'utility' is being discussed is in contrast to 'offensive' spells, Wand Wielder increasing Wand DCs is not going to assuage somebody interested in non-offensive utility spell use.
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My level 6 magus is good at utility, but not just due to magic. (I do carry scrolls to allow flexability when necessary.)
He is good at utility because he is a human with an 18 intelligence and significant resources dedicated towards improving his skills.
And who cares about happy sticks when infernal healing is just as effective.
I think we can all agree UMD is a great skill.
And even though the magus isn't really cha based - in fact it's mostlikely a dump skill - you COULD max. UMD, and not dump CHA to 7 - in which case the magus could get a usefull UMD score at some point.
But good at it? No they aren't cha based, and suffering from MAD as it is... Don't see it as a lure for the magus...
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After playing a Magus to 5th level, I wouldn't call them a utility class just because they can UMD a happy stick every once in a while. They are what they are, good burst strikers with a couple of unique tricks. Not that many wizards are going to be losing jobs to them though.
Amazing how everyone assumes we are always talking about wands of Cure Light Wounds. UMD works on "all" magic items, so you can carry druid, ranger, or Paladin scrolls etc.
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I think we can all agree UMD is a great skill.
And even though the magus isn't really cha based - in fact it's mostlikely a dump skill - you COULD max. UMD, and not dump CHA to 7 - in which case the magus could get a usefull UMD score at some point.But good at it? No they aren't cha based, and suffering from MAD as it is... Don't see it as a lure for the magus...
As long as you are hitting the DCs then thats what matters. All my Magus characters have no less than a 12 cha which is a + 1. Yes an 18 will give you three more but it wont usually make you or break you.
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Happy sticks are pretty much what most PFS players use the skill for, in my experience.After playing a Magus to 5th level, I wouldn't call them a utility class just because they can UMD a happy stick every once in a while. They are what they are, good burst strikers with a couple of unique tricks. Not that many wizards are going to be losing jobs to them though.Amazing how everyone assumes we are always talking about wands of Cure Light Wounds. UMD works on "all" magic items, so you can carry druid, ranger, or Paladin scrolls etc.
Who are these "most"?
Im in society play and a cure wand is just one of many things we use.
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As long as you are hitting the DCs then thats what matters. All my Magus characters have nobless than a 12 cha which is a + 1. Yes an 18 will give you three more but it wont usually make you or break you.I think we can all agree UMD is a great skill.
And even though the magus isn't really cha based - in fact it's mostlikely a dump skill - you COULD max. UMD, and not dump CHA to 7 - in which case the magus could get a usefull UMD score at some point.But good at it? No they aren't cha based, and suffering from MAD as it is... Don't see it as a lure for the magus...
This
My magus has a 12 cha.
As a comparison, my summoner has a 16 cha. That is only 2 point difference. Not significant in the long term.
And who cares about happy sticks when infernal healing is just as effective.Good people?
*ducks for cover*
Yeah, even as an optimizer, I can't abide using Infernal Healing as a good character.
Now I miss a UMD guide for pathfinder...
I know it there's pelnty of cool stuff you can use with UMD - but never really got around to finding out what.
But to argue that having UMD as a class feature adds to the lure of the magus - well I would need to know what you would use UMD for?
How does the magus benefit from UMD more than any other char?
And Cure light wounds? - I most parties atleast one char should have in on his spelllist.. But i guess it'snice - but WHAT ELSE???
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My biggest grumble about the Magus is that the way Spellstrike and Spell Combat interact "feels broken". I know the rules work as written, I'm pretty sure they work as intended, and I don't think Magi are overpowered. It just feels like the RAW and the RAI lost sight of each other somewhere in the Magus rules.
The idea is that the Magus combines melee combat with spellcasting. How does he do it? With touch spells. He gets into melee and delivers touch spells while he swings a sword. Okay, sounds good.
To do that, he gets Spell Combat. The ability lets him attack with his weapon and cast a touch spell at the same time. Since he needs a free hand to cast the spell, it's like he's a Two-Weapon Fighter, only his "off-hand weapon" is a spell. That's cool.
He also gets Spellstrike. With that, he can deliver a touch spell through his weapon instead of reaching out and touching the enemy, so the enemy takes his weapon damage and the spell at the same time-- he not only combines weapon savvy with spellcasting, he LITERALLY combines his spell with his weapon's strike. That's cool too.
But here's where I'm lost. He can Spell Combat and Spellstrike in the same round. If Spell Combat is dual-wielding weapon and spell, and Spellstrike incorporates a weapon swing into a spell, then both at once means the Magus is dual wielding a weapon and... the same weapon, but with a spell on it.
I don't think Paizo really thought about what the Magus was actually doing when they said that he could Spell Combat and Spellstrike in the same round. If I were writing the rules, I'd make the two incompatible. Possibly even as a "style choice", like a Paladin's Divine Bond or a Ranger's Nature Bond-- the Magus picks at 1st level whether he wants to dual-wield weapon and spell, or deliver touch spells through his weapon.
People get way to hung up on "Functions like two weapon fighting." and the frankly "functions like X" needs to stop being used in the writing anyway. Its just lazy writing that does nothing but confuse people when its just fluff text anyway.
Really the combo of spell combat and spell strike is more like flurry... which is also something that should not have that "like two weapon fighting" line in it ether.
Making the two not work together would flat make the magus useless.
agreed. it works as intended, after alot of playtesting.
having the option to channel the magic '2wf' attack back into the 'mainhand' attack (after casting w/ 'offhand')
doesn't negate the concept anyways, it's just a variant on it that you aren't required to use.
i could write a feat that let you forgo a real 2wf offhand attack and do more damage on the main-hand or gain an attack bonus, and that wouldn't conflict with 2wf, it would be a variant within it, it would still work like 2wf in requiring you wield an off-hand weapon/have off-hand free, etc.
I stopped reading after page 2.
Watch the you tube video "Dragon Age 2 trailer"
That is how I envision a Magus.
Wear armor? Check
Cast through weapon? Check
Heal your own wounds (Via Infernal Healing)? Check
Kick ass in melee? Check
Look totally freaking awesome? Hell yes!
But here's where I'm lost. He can Spell Combat and Spellstrike in the same round. If Spell Combat is dual-wielding weapon and spell, and Spellstrike incorporates a weapon swing into a spell, then both at once means the Magus is dual wielding a weapon and... the same weapon, but with a spell on it.
let me help you... magically triggered flurry of blows
I stopped reading after page 2.
Watch the you tube video "Dragon Age 2 trailer"
That is how I envision a Magus.Wear armor? Check
Cast through weapon? Check
Heal your own wounds (Via Infernal Healing)? Check
Kick ass in melee? Check
Look totally freaking awesome? Hell yes!
I see Cloud from Advent Children...
just lacking some of the coolest spells
Cool vids on cloud. Sword is too big for me.
Prefer Hawke.
New thread idea!
Link your favorite Magus videos!
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Now I miss a UMD guide for pathfinder...
I know it there's pelnty of cool stuff you can use with UMD - but never really got around to finding out what.
But to argue that having UMD as a class feature adds to the lure of the magus - well I would need to know what you would use UMD for?
How does the magus benefit from UMD more than any other char?And Cure light wounds? - I most parties atleast one char should have in on his spelllist.. But i guess it'snice - but WHAT ELSE???
Getting +3 to THE MOST USEFUL SKILL BY MILES in the game I would say is a pretty big lure. Do you need that +3? Nope. I have 7 cha fighters that can easily use giant form 2 scrolls...but I do have to burn two feats and a trait to do it. Not having to burn a trait and possible only need one feat to use giant form 2 I would say is a pretty big plus.
Now as for is UMD is actually more beneficial to the magus then other classes...well nobody really said THAT. It was just said that UMD is a freaking useful skill and the magus has it as a class skill.
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But here's where I'm lost. He can Spell Combat and Spellstrike in the same round. If Spell Combat is dual-wielding weapon and spell, and Spellstrike incorporates a weapon swing into a spell, then both at once means the Magus is dual wielding a weapon and... the same weapon, but with a spell on it.
The way it works in my mind is that the Magus strikes with his weapon, then wiggles his fingers a bit, forces the spell into the weapon, and strikes again.
Magic, ain't gotta explain ****.
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THE MOST USEFUL SKILL BY MILES in the game
That's perception. :p
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I like the magus class because I'm attracted to both using magic, and hitting things with sharp objects. A class that lets me do both and be effective overall is a perfect fit.
I'm also big into tactical decision-making, and there are plenty of tactical choices when you play a magus. Foremost is resource management, determining when and how to use your spells and arcane pool points. Then add on top of that combat maneuvers through True Strike, and battlefield positioning through Bladed Dash, Dimension Door, and Fly. The magus also has access to control spells such as Obscuring Mist and Black Tentacles.
The vast array of options appeals to me greatly. While a mage may have more spell options, I'd say the magus actually has more overall tactical options at any given time.
The magus also has the option of providing frontline support (spells such as Mirror Image and Stoneskin make the magus a great frontliner), or doubling up on artillery with the mage by firing off a Fireball, then using Arcane Recall to bring it back, firing it again, wash, rinse, repeat.
For me, the magus is a Jack-of-all-Trades, Master-of-all-Trades-(for-a-while). He can do almost anything, and do it well, but not forever. Determining when and how to best apply your abilities is where a lot of the challenge and fun of the magus lies.
Magi can be pretty cool, but it took me a while to warm up to them. Mostly because I really dislike (the arrogance of) elves, and the magus practically screams (I'm a one man army)Bladesinger at me.
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agreed. it works as intended, after alot of playtesting.
having the option to channel the magic '2wf' attack back into the 'mainhand' attack (after casting w/ 'offhand')
doesn't negate the concept anyways, it's just a variant on it that you aren't required to use.
i could write a feat that let you forgo a real 2wf offhand attack and do more damage on the main-hand or gain an attack bonus, and that wouldn't conflict with 2wf, it would be a variant within it, it would still work like 2wf in requiring you wield an off-hand weapon/have off-hand free, etc.
I know fully well it works as intended. It just looks like the playtesters had two equally cool, equally functional ideas for how to combine magic and melee, and Paizo just decided to let the Magus do both at the same time regardless of how little sense it makes.
I know, I know, realism in a game with dragons, but there's still a line there somewhere.
It's possible that not letting the Magus do both at once would nerf him down to Rogue/Monk power levels, but making him choose would at least create some more variety of the different kinds of Magi out there. As it stands, it seems like every one is all about Dervish Dance/Shocking Grasp.
I know, I know, realism in a game with dragons, but there's still a line there somewhere.
I have no realism issues with combining Spell Combat and Spellstrike at all...
I imagine the magus casting Shocking Grasp with his free hand and, instead of reaching out with that hand to shock his target, a stream of electricity travels from his casting hand to his blade, electrifying the weapon. He then slashes with his sword, and when the electrified blade makes contact, the spell energy is released into his target.
As far as every magus being all about Dervish Dance and Shocking Grasp, I'd have to agree with it, but don't see why it's any more of a problem than every barbarian being about Power Attacking with a Greatsword, or every rogue being about two-weapon fighting and sneak attack. You can build the classes differently, but if you're going for peak efficiency there are almost always a couple of clear winners.
Technically, given that there are rules for spell research to create new spells, you could build a magus around a different touch spell besides Shocking Grasp. I didn't bother with it, since I'd never played a shock jock, though if I ever revisit the magus I could see myself researching a fire or acid type spell to use instead of Shocking Grasp for variety's sake.
Honestly, I think something that might be cool would be a debuffing Magus who focuses more on debilitating spells.
You can get Touch of Fatigue by level 3 with Spell Blending, which makes one of your attacks every round have a chance to fatigue foes. Prepping Chill Touch also allows you to basically make debuffing attacks for an entire combat with one cast, at higher levels.
A debuffing magus is a HEXCRAFTER.
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Honestly, I'd kind of like to play a Magus who uses a light pick. If you think Shocking Grasp hits hard now, wait until you see it with a x4 crit modifier!
Actually, I take back what I said about every Magus being a Shocking Dervish. I remember seeing at least a few threads about Whip-wielding Magi, and they seem pretty fun once they push through the feat tax.
Can you Spellstrike through a net? Do you have to hold the trailing rope to do so? If you maintain a hold, can you keep doing it?
Honestly, I'd kind of like to play a Magus who uses a light pick. If you think Shocking Grasp hits hard now, wait until you see it with a x4 crit modifier!
Unfortunately, spellstrike only allows you to use the weapon's crit range, not multiplier (so spells always do x2 damage no matter what). That is why 100% of Magi use 18-20 crit weapons, unless they are using an unusual quirky build (Kapenia dancer, those whip guys you were talking about) or don't understand math ;)
Can you Spellstrike through a net? Do you have to hold the trailing rope to do so? If you maintain a hold, can you keep doing it?
You can only spellstrike through a melee weapon--nets are ranged weapons.
And you couldn't spellstrike through a maintained hold on a net, even if a net was a melee weapon, because you have to hit with an attack, not just hold one.
I think I may make a polearm magus who has the feat that allows you to wield a two handed weapon with one hand. So Lighten Weapon plus a polearm equals touch spells with reach.
I was originally gonna say "drop the weapon and just go Aberrant Sorc", but then I looked at the weapons and saw the Fauchard; slashing weapon with 18-20 x2 and reach. Could work out ;p
Interesting idea but to use Fauchard like this two feats (or Kensai) and one is a 3rd party feat... Which are most of the time wise to stay away from.
There's always good and bad, in both 3rd party and official; I like looking to find new and exciting class concepts :D
Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that they can't see the reality of the situation.Sadly there are still some people that have very little understanding of the game that spout this nonsense. Any full caster is by far more powerful then magus.It's broken.
Sorry to break this to you but the only thing they do very well is single target damage. Single target damage can never be game breaking. Why? Because killing through damage is in fact the least effective way to win. Save or Suck/die is the most effective way followed by battlefield control.
High melee damage while fun is always sub-par. The only time it looks bad is in single enemy encounters and well that's the DM's mistake not a balance problem. Never do single target encounters.
How is 'save or die' best when 'no save and die' is not ??
Illogical. Doing over the damage needed to kill CR of higher than your level is NO SAVE AND DIENevermind casting is laughably easy to disrupt, and no more silent d.doors out of grapple - casting still needs a concentration check no matter how silent it is, and feats like step up .. hohum!!
Do you realize you are posting on a thread about the Magus? A big part of his damage that you seem to think can end everything things in one hit (hint.. far from it) is based off casting? So he is subject to the list of things your tried to say make save or die not work.
The thing you seem to overlook is said spells are ranged so will end it before the Magus can even get there. A number of them are more then single target. You also left out combat control (likely because you know it would break your weak argument) but most all of those are not single target. Single target damage means next to nothing in 3.5/PF.
-Edit- You know that last part is a bit over the top. single target damage can be meaningful if you don't have a full caster or your full caster is a blaster.