Creative Director
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Actually... the faith of Asmodeus is, by and large, pretty pleased with the Worldwound and isn't particularly eager to see that situation end.
Because the fact that so many crusaders headed north to fight demons as the Age of Lost Omens started is perhaps one of the primary reasons Cheliax is now ruled by diabolists; there simply wasn't enough folks left behind to oppose this development because they were all up north.
So as long as there's demons in the north, Cheliax gets away with a lot more than it probably should.
I like to think of them as Sorks :)
I could see Hellknights being super interested in the Worldwound though...
Any chance of stronghold building rules being used in the AP?
Will this be an AP where mounts will be highly useful?
Stronghold building is not a part of Wrath of the Righteous.
Mounts will be useful here and there, but the game isn't really built for mounted combat to be front-and-center every scene. There's certainly going to be plenty of outdoor encounters where mounts can help, but no more so than, say, Kingmaker, I would guess.
It would be nice if at least one of the book-end bosses were fightable on a mount. Not even Kingmaker had that. It would be a real treat, to charge at the demon lord, over the blacked earth, under the burning and twisted sky...
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Creative Director
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Actually... the faith of Asmodeus is, by and large, pretty pleased with the Worldwound and isn't particularly eager to see that situation end.
Because the fact that so many crusaders headed north to fight demons as the Age of Lost Omens started is perhaps one of the primary reasons Cheliax is now ruled by diabolists; there simply wasn't enough folks left behind to oppose this development because they were all up north.
So as long as there's demons in the north, Cheliax gets away with a lot more than it probably should.
That's really interesting given that Faiths of Corruption says "The more fervent Asmodean warriors may also journey to the Worldwound,
working alongside the faithful of Iomedae to help seal the rents
to the Abyss and contain the flood of demonkind." While it would no doubt not be the first time servants of Asmodeus appear to be working at cross purposes, one would think that the church as a whole had a policy and would be redirecting would be crusaders to more "productive" ends, or is it a question of "put in an appearance so nobody can say you aren't taking part"?
Not all Asmodean warriors are from Cheliax.
It would be nice if at least one of the book-end bosses were fightable on a large mount. Not even Kingmaker had that.
Emphasis (and nitpick) mine. But I agree, outdoor fights with lots of space to maneuver a large mount and benefiting from the superior maneuverability of it would be awesome (but also pretty difficult to set up without destroying the whole encounter by ranged combat, I'd say).
And the scene would be pretty awesome to behold!
Ruyan.
Is there any word on whether there will be guidelines for using this adventure path without the Mythic rules?
I assume that there will be Mythic stuff incorporated into the books and am not worried about doing some modification. But I'm also finishing up a campaign arc that could potentially lead into something like this adventure path but would be for higher-level characters. Are there any guidelines out there for how high-level PCs can be balanced against Mythic encounters?
Actually... the faith of Asmodeus is, by and large, pretty pleased with the Worldwound and isn't particularly eager to see that situation end.
Because the fact that so many crusaders headed north to fight demons as the Age of Lost Omens started is perhaps one of the primary reasons Cheliax is now ruled by diabolists; there simply wasn't enough folks left behind to oppose this development because they were all up north.
So as long as there's demons in the north, Cheliax gets away with a lot more than it probably should.
So there really isn't the same concept of the Blood War in Golarion?
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Creative Director
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Is there any word on whether there will be guidelines for using this adventure path without the Mythic rules?
I assume that there will be Mythic stuff incorporated into the books and am not worried about doing some modification. But I'm also finishing up a campaign arc that could potentially lead into something like this adventure path but would be for higher-level characters. Are there any guidelines out there for how high-level PCs can be balanced against Mythic encounters?
There will indeed be some advice and guidelines on how to use Wrath of the Righteous without the Mythic rules... but some of that advice will be "GM—rebuild the mythic monsters in this game to something else." We won't be providing fully-statted up replacements.
Other bits of advice will probably be akin to "Mythic characters advance in level more quickly; if you run this campaign with normal characters, consider increasing the number of characters significantly, or send the PCs on additional side quests at certain points in the adventure so that they'll be able to level up higher to deal with the problems they'll be facing."
By the end, certainly in the last adventure but possibly even in the penultimate one... the foes the PCs will be facing will be VERY dangerous and tough, and it might end up being too much even for a party of 20th level characters to handle.
And all of this is being made up as we go. So all of that is subject to change.
My plans ARE to give a bit of advice on how to run the AP without using Mythic, in the same way I gave advice on how to run Kingmaker without using the kingdom building rules... but that advice will be relatively sparse and will put a LOT of the onus on the work to convert the game to a non-mythic one on the GM.
Because this is a story line that requires really powerful characters. In a way, it's because of this adventure path that we're publishing Mythic Adventures, not the other way around.
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Creative Director
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I believe each mythic tier is equal to about +2 CR (so a level 20 tier 10 pc would be CR31). The AP starts at level 1 and probably tier 1, which would be the equivalent of level 3 characters
The AP starts at level 1, but the PCs do not begin the campaign mythic. They become mythic at a later point.
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So there really isn't the same concept of the Blood War in Golarion?Actually... the faith of Asmodeus is, by and large, pretty pleased with the Worldwound and isn't particularly eager to see that situation end.
Because the fact that so many crusaders headed north to fight demons as the Age of Lost Omens started is perhaps one of the primary reasons Cheliax is now ruled by diabolists; there simply wasn't enough folks left behind to oppose this development because they were all up north.
So as long as there's demons in the north, Cheliax gets away with a lot more than it probably should.
Absolutely not.
Because the Blood War is very much a creation of D&D campaign worlds (particularly Planescape), and that's something we want to avoid in Golarion. Just as we can't really talk about the Time of Troubles or other big events in D&D campaign worlds.
And because, in my opinion, even IN the context of D&D game worlds, the Blood War got overplayed and started to lose sight of the fact that devils and demons come from US and represent the evils that mortals do, taken to extreme. Instead, the overabundance of Blood War stuff recast these classic villains as enemies that fight each other first and torment humanity second—it basically kind of "declawed" them, in my opinion, and made them less frightening.
Thanks!
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What's the plan for adventure paths following this one? Is Mythic going to become the "new normal", required (or at least the default) for everything? Or will this one be an exception that it assumes Mythic characters?
To a certain extent, the reaction to the Mythic rules and to Wrath of the Righteous will determine how we incorporate mythic rules in the future.
At this point, though, my plan is to not do another mythic adventure until the story demands it. I'd be happy with only doing a mythic adventure once every 2 or 3 years, for example.
Certainly, the plans we have at this moment (which are still unnanounced) for the two adventure paths of 2014 are not mythic adventures. They may have a mythic thing in them here and there, just as you might periodically find something from Ultimate Combat in an adventure, but it is not going to be the "new normal."
Unless it becomes so overwhelmingly popular that it makes sense to do them more often, of course, but the earliest we can really know if that's the case is probably the end of the year, which means that the earliest we could react to that to do a new mythic themed AP would be 2015 anyway.
Actually... the faith of Asmodeus is, by and large, pretty pleased with the Worldwound and isn't particularly eager to see that situation end.
Because the fact that so many crusaders headed north to fight demons as the Age of Lost Omens started is perhaps one of the primary reasons Cheliax is now ruled by diabolists; there simply wasn't enough folks left behind to oppose this development because they were all up north.
So as long as there's demons in the north, Cheliax gets away with a lot more than it probably should.
Cheliax is ruled by a female, something tells me Asmodeus wouldn't mind if the Worldwound was temporarily closed, to have someone to go and take care of Abrogail.
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Creative Director
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Actually... the faith of Asmodeus is, by and large, pretty pleased with the Worldwound and isn't particularly eager to see that situation end.
Because the fact that so many crusaders headed north to fight demons as the Age of Lost Omens started is perhaps one of the primary reasons Cheliax is now ruled by diabolists; there simply wasn't enough folks left behind to oppose this development because they were all up north.
So as long as there's demons in the north, Cheliax gets away with a lot more than it probably should.
Cheliax is ruled by a female, something tells me Asmodeus wouldn't mind if the Worldwound was temporarily closed, to have someone to go and take care of Abrogail.
If Asmodeus wanted her out of her position of rule, then she probably wouldn't have been in charge of the place as long as she has been.
AKA: Yes, Hell and its devils have strong themes of misogyny, but Hell and Asmodeus in particular are a LOT more complex than a single reprehensible personality trait. That trait is not the primary motivator for Asmodeus and his church... it's one of MANY.
And, presumably, from Asmodeus's perspective, if Abrograil were to rule for a century, that'd still only be like the blink of an eye, timewise.
Cheliax is ruled by a female, something tells me Asmodeus wouldn't mind if the Worldwound was temporarily closed, to have someone to go and take care of Abrogail.
If Asmodeus wanted her out of her position of rule, then she probably wouldn't have been in charge of the place as long as she has been.
AKA: Yes, Hell and its devils have strong themes of misogyny, but Hell and Asmodeus in particular are a LOT more complex than a single reprehensible personality trait. That trait is not the primary motivator for Asmodeus and his church... it's one of MANY.
Maybe he wants her to have an heir or two?
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Just imagine the effect of an Empress finding herself less than a slave in a system designed to oppress her. The depths of that fall from power to nothingness would produce despair that would be...exquisite. 100 years is nothing to a being whose plans span millennia. It might even be a worthwhile time period for the cosmic equivalent of a prank.
Or an all barbarian group taking back Sakoris single-handedly!Why not a summoner? Since they are traditionally Sakoran(Sakorian, Sakorite, ?).
I have already begun building a "god caller" for that very reason ;)
Is there any word on whether there will be guidelines for using this adventure path without the Mythic rules?
I assume that there will be Mythic stuff incorporated into the books and am not worried about doing some modification. But I'm also finishing up a campaign arc that could potentially lead into something like this adventure path but would be for higher-level characters. Are there any guidelines out there for how high-level PCs can be balanced against Mythic encounters?
There will indeed be some advice and guidelines on how to use Wrath of the Righteous without the Mythic rules... but some of that advice will be "GM—rebuild the mythic monsters in this game to something else." We won't be providing fully-statted up replacements.
Other bits of advice will probably be akin to "Mythic characters advance in level more quickly; if you run this campaign with normal characters, consider increasing the number of characters significantly, or send the PCs on additional side quests at certain points in the adventure so that they'll be able to level up higher to deal with the problems they'll be facing."
By the end, certainly in the last adventure but possibly even in the penultimate one... the foes the PCs will be facing will be VERY dangerous and tough, and it might end up being too much even for a party of 20th level characters to handle.
And all of this is being made up as we go. So all of that is subject to change.
My plans ARE to give a bit of advice on how to run the AP without using Mythic, in the same way I gave advice on how to run Kingmaker without using the kingdom building rules... but that advice will be relatively sparse and will put a LOT of the onus on the work to convert the game to a non-mythic one on the GM.
Because this is a story line that requires really powerful characters. In a way, it's because of this adventure path that we're publishing Mythic Adventures, not the other way around.
Ugh - so very, very excited about the theme of this campaign, but have absolutely no intention whatsoever to use Pathfinder 1.5 (aka Mythic rules)... hopefully converting one to the other won't be too much of a headache as we generally much prefer to run AP's the way they were written.
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How closely will the storyline events of this AP be linked to the new season of Pathfinder Society? Is the Society a part of a much larger 'Crusade' that will be occurring in Golarion time?
The events of "Wrath of the Righteous" start with a SIGNIFICANT event that changes a lot of assumptions about the current stalemate between the Worldwound and the rest of the north. That event is, essentially, what triggers the Pathfinder Society's season, as well as what triggers the plot of an upcoming novel. The storylines that unfold in those three venues—Adventure Path, Pathfinder Society, and Novel, all start at the same time, and the events in the novel and the Pathfinder Society are assumed to unfold during the Adventure Path's events, but the locations and plots in the novel and the Adventure Path and the Pathfinder Society plotlines don't cross. They may brush against each other here and there, but they won't be "interlocked."
AKA: You don't need to read one to enjoy the other.
I hadn't realized the next adventure will be Mythic based. This should prove interesting.
On a blog I read that mythic characters will be mythic at the start of a game,so does that mean that this ap won't start at first level ?
Read the post by JJ, seven above yours.
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...whatsoever to use Pathfinder 1.5 (aka Mythic rules)...
I'm not actually sure it's called Pathfinder 1.5 in any event. I think that would be like calling Ultimate Campaign or Ultimate Combat (or heck even Ultimate Magic with it's wordcaster system) as Pathfinder 1.5.
It's a shame you won't give mythic rules a fair chance when they come out, though. But I can understand the compelling power of predispositions.
...whatsoever to use Pathfinder 1.5 (aka Mythic rules)...
I'm not actually sure it's called Pathfinder 1.5 in any event. I think that would be like calling Ultimate Campaign or Ultimate Combat (or heck even Ultimate Magic with it's wordcaster system) as Pathfinder 1.5.
It's a shame you won't give mythic rules a fair chance when they come out, though. But I can understand the compelling power of predispositions.
Hey, I'll try anything once . . . well, almost! But I do have reservations about mythic, as well. I watched a 13th level Alchemist bring down a Neothilid (CR 15) in one round without any help from his friends. If stuff starts getting that powerful as a base class at just beyond 12th level, I'm not sure how they're going to keep mythic-tiered PCs reined in enough to make it fun for anyone except the first guy to go in combat. (This is an extreme case, I'll grant you, but I still think it has relevance.)
However, I am geeked about learning more about the Worldwound, so you know I'll be getting this AP whether I ever choose to run it or not! =)
I have to say, the last couple AP's, while sounding fun to play, have not really grabbed me as a concept. But ever since I learned of the Worldwound I have been completely fascinated by it. If this is half as good as it sound I will definitely be running it for my group (or if it's not my turn trying to talk another DM to do it instead). SUPER EXCITED!!
That said, do we have to worry about the Pathfinder Tales novel having spoilers for the AP? I read all the tales and I would expect to finish the book well before the AP finishes, should I wait so that I don't ruin the AP finale b/c I already know how it ends?
Also, although the AP's have been important in that if the PCs fail the world will be significantly changed if not destroyed outright (Second Darkness/Serpent Skull), will this AP also have world changing events if the PC's Succeed? For instance in Second Darkness, you kill the bad guy and stop the [evil plan], but the only people who know is the Elf Queen (name escapes me atm). Will this be less of a "world goes on none the wiser" and more of a "the world is a tangibly better place b/c X happened" (for example the Fall of House Thune [as world changing not in this AP]).
...whatsoever to use Pathfinder 1.5 (aka Mythic rules)...
I'm not actually sure it's called Pathfinder 1.5 in any event. I think that would be like calling Ultimate Campaign or Ultimate Combat (or heck even Ultimate Magic with it's wordcaster system) as Pathfinder 1.5.
It's a shame you won't give mythic rules a fair chance when they come out, though. But I can understand the compelling power of predispositions.
Hey, I'll try anything once . . . well, almost! But I do have reservations about mythic, as well. I watched a 13th level Alchemist bring down a Neothilid (CR 15) in one round without any help from his friends. If stuff starts getting that powerful as a base class at just beyond 12th level, I'm not sure how they're going to keep mythic-tiered PCs reined in enough to make it fun for anyone except the first guy to go in combat. (This is an extreme case, I'll grant you, but I still think it has relevance.)
However, I am geeked about learning more about the Worldwound, so you know I'll be getting this AP whether I ever choose to run it or not! =)
I'd take anything that happened with the playtest with a grain of salt. The mechanics were in their very early stages, and Mythic Initiative on its own (before sanity checks) was quite powerful. Reservations based on the mechanics of it all, to me, are secondary to the theme of playing a "mythic" figure. Because, obviously, the mechanics aren't really set in stone (to us) yet.
If I based the Magus or Oracle class off of the playtest, I'd never want anything to do with them.
Thankfully, that's not the case.
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Mythic Adventures is not "Pathfinder 1.5." Calling it that is unnecessarily snarky.
I get that the stories that Mythic Adventures (and the rules to support them) aren't for everyone... but then neither are dwarves or summoners or the kingdom building rules or Adventure Paths about pirates. We spread around the love so that there's, in theory, stuff for everyone to be excited about.
So there's no need to get snarky about Mythic Adventures.
The way we're building the rules for Mythic Adventures are such that if you want to run a mythic game with mythic PCs... the flavor of the game DOES change, but in a way that it lets you tell stories that aren't all that possible to tell with the core rules. But since it's modular, you don't have to use mythic rules for your game if you want.
Likewise, a mythic adventure is a different creature than a core adventure—the notion of a 13th level alchemist taking down a CR 15 foe is indeed ridiculous for the core game, but NOT for a Mythic Game. Keep in mind that a 13th level alchemist is likely a tier 6 mythic character, and as such his power level should be more akin to a 16th level character. The idea of a 16th level character taking down a CR 15 monster in a single round isn't all that outlandish to me.
When making comparisons, make sure that the comparison is valid.
Back on topic... the story I've always wanted to tell about the Worldwound has NEVER been one I can tell in a way that would satisfy me using only the Core Rules. I'll try to keep spoilers light... but be warned... there's a semi-spoiler in the following about the nature of the main bad guy for the Adventure Path...
Now, could I have done the Worldwound AP in a way that didn't involve direct encounters with a demon lord? Sure... but it would feel to me like a terribly missed opportunity and a let down and an anticlimax—just like if we say "This adventure sends you to Gallowspire" but then never lets you encounter the boss of that site, the Whispering Tyrant.
Could I have done the Worldwound AP and made Deskari CR 25, the current upper limit to monsters we use in the game? Sure, but making a full-on demon lord the same CR as a nascent demon lord like Treerazer is not only unsatisfying and illogical, but it's ALSO a let-down.
So... the story of the Worldwound needs something more than the core rules to be told. And as such, the fact that folks have been demanding a Worldwound adventure, combined with my desire to do one, means that this adventure path had to happen. And if we'd had the rules to do the story sooner, it would have happened sooner. But the fact is, a large party of why we're printing Mythic Adventures is BECAUSE we wanted to do a Worldwound Adventure Path, not the other way around.
I get that some folks might not enjoy the high-powered games, although I certainly hope they wait to make that judgement of Mythic Adventures until the book is done and published—basing those opinions solely on the playtest isn't fair or appropriate.
But that, to me, is no different than some folks not liking pirates, or not liking Varisia, or not liking sandbox kingdom building, or not liking gothic horror. Now and then, the subject and theme of an Adventure Path won't appeal to someone, and that's fine. That's why we do two of these a year; so if one isn't appealing to you, you only need to wait 6 months to have a shot at one that is appealing.
And just as we haven't done all-kingdom building APs after Kingmaker, or all pirate APs after Skull & Shackles, neither will we only do Mythic APs after Wrath of the Righteous. The next two we've got locked in after Wrath (APs we haven't yet announced) are not mythic at all, but they DO have their own themes that will appeal to some and not to others.
But for Wrath of the Righteous, we are pretty much all-in on building a high powered AP that lets you reach the pinnacle of power you can reach and beyond.
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That said, do we have to worry about the Pathfinder Tales novel having spoilers for the AP? I read all the tales and I would expect to finish the book well before the AP finishes, should I wait so that I don't ruin the AP finale b/c I already know how it ends?
Also, although the AP's have been important in that if the PCs fail the world will be significantly changed if not destroyed outright (Second Darkness/Serpent Skull), will this AP also have world changing events if the PC's Succeed? For instance in Second Darkness, you kill the bad guy and stop the [evil plan], but the only people who know is the Elf Queen (name escapes me atm). Will this be less of a "world goes on none the wiser" and more of a "the world is a tangibly better place b/c X happened" (for example the Fall of House Thune [as world changing not in this AP]).
The novel won't spoil the plot of the AP. Certain events by the end of the AP might spoil some events in the novel though. (The novel's story takes place in regions the AP never goes to.)
So if you read the novel, you'll know that the demons are on the attack and you'll recognize some of the names that pop up in the AP, but the AP's plot won't be spoiled at all.
As for the repercussions... ALL of our Adventure Paths have them. ALL of our Adventure Paths change Golarion in some way. Some of these ways are smaller than others, but in some cases, they result in the rulers of cities or nations changing, or result in the revelation of a huge secret (such as the nature of an ancient civilization like Thassilon or the drow), or even result in additions or subtractions to the world map.
We don't assume any of our APs have occurred in your game, nor do we assume any of them have occurred in the context of any other AP (with the exception of Shattered Star, which is a deliberate sequel).
Likewise, once we publish Wrath of the Righteous, we won't assume that the events in that AP even BEGIN for anything we publish thereafter, let alone have played out to the end.
But if you do play out Wrath of the Righteous... your incarnation of Golarion you play in WILL change, as surely as any other AP changes your incarnation of Golarion. The "Continuing the Campaign" article in the last volume will give the GM tips and advice on how to move forward with the new changes the AP causes, but that's as far as we'll be taking things for now.
Whether or not the world is a tangibly better place or it suffers a devastating blow depends entirely on your PCs' actions in this Adventure Path... but it will NOT be something that no one in the world notices!
Mythic Adventures is not "Pathfinder 1.5." Calling it that is unnecessarily snarky.
I get that the stories that Mythic Adventures (and the rules to support them) aren't for everyone... but then neither are dwarves or summoners or the kingdom building rules or Adventure Paths about pirates. We spread around the love so that there's, in theory, stuff for everyone to be excited about.
So there's no need to get snarky about Mythic Adventures.
It wasn't my intention to be 'snarky' (though to be fair I'm not 100% sure what that means)... I was merely making the point that we have this set of rules which is very much like the Pathfinder rules we've all come to know and love - VERY much - except that it seems to be an all or nothing thing, my party will have to pick one or the other when making their characters, designing their builds, planning campaigns and adventures, etc. We will have to either go with the standard version of Pathfinder or the 'Mythic' version of Pathfinder - or so it seems, anyway.
I've repeatedly expressed my excitement about the upcoming AP, I just have reservations about the new rules system - blame it on someone who got burned by going all-in on 4th Edition D&D only to have the rug pulled out from under my feet with the new 'Essentials' line... or falling completely in love with White Wolf's World of Darkness line and committing fully to that only to have it shift gears to a newer rules system. I'm just a little gun-shy is all, and now with an AP I'm incredibly excited about, its again looking like I'm going to have to buy in whether I want to or not. I've spent a lot of money and a lot of time supporting things that, themselves, are no longer supported and I saw Pathfinder as the system that I finally wouldn't have to worry about that with.
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Mythic Adventures is not "Pathfinder 1.5." Calling it that is unnecessarily snarky.
I get that the stories that Mythic Adventures (and the rules to support them) aren't for everyone... but then neither are dwarves or summoners or the kingdom building rules or Adventure Paths about pirates. We spread around the love so that there's, in theory, stuff for everyone to be excited about.
So there's no need to get snarky about Mythic Adventures.
It wasn't my intention to be 'snarky' (though to be fair I'm not 100% sure what that means)... I was merely making the point that we have this set of rules which is very much like the Pathfinder rules we've all come to know and love - VERY much - except that it seems to be an all or nothing thing, my party will have to pick one or the other when making their characters, designing their builds, planning campaigns and adventures, etc. We will have to either go with the standard version of Pathfinder or the 'Mythic' version of Pathfinder - or so it seems, anyway.
I've repeatedly expressed my excitement about the upcoming AP, I just have reservations about the new rules system - blame it on someone who got burned by going all-in on 4th Edition D&D only to have the rug pulled out from under my feet with the new 'Essentials' line... or falling completely in love with White Wolf's World of Darkness line and committing fully to that only to have it shift gears to a newer rules system. I'm just a little gun-shy is all, and now with an AP I'm incredibly excited about, its again looking like I'm going to have to buy in whether I want to or not. I've spent a lot of money and a lot of time supporting things that, themselves, are no longer supported and I saw Pathfinder as the system that I finally wouldn't have to worry about that with.
Well fortunately "seems that way" is pretty far from the truth as "modular" means to add and take away as dictated... they have repeatedly stated that these rules will allow for a GM to have any of the following:
1) A Full on Mythic campaign like Wrath of the Righteous where Mythic is a mainstay and permanent throughout the campaign
2) A Regular Pathfinder campaign where there might be 1 or 2 encounters where the PCs are blessed with Mythic power by an Artifact or a God but then Mythic Power is then taken away after the fight or adventure (The playtest included an adventure that followed this idea).
3) A Regular Pathfinder Campaign that never allows the PCs to touch the Mythic rules but might include a fight or a few against Mythic Monsters!
4) A Regular Pathfinder Campaign that goes all the way to level 20 then starts using Mythic as 21st level and beyond!
or
5) A GM could entirely ignore the Mythic rules all together.
So GOOD NEWS EVERYBODY! You aren't being forced to play Mythic!
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Mythic Adventures is not "Pathfinder 1.5." Calling it that is unnecessarily snarky.
I get that the stories that Mythic Adventures (and the rules to support them) aren't for everyone... but then neither are dwarves or summoners or the kingdom building rules or Adventure Paths about pirates. We spread around the love so that there's, in theory, stuff for everyone to be excited about.
So there's no need to get snarky about Mythic Adventures.
It wasn't my intention to be 'snarky' (though to be fair I'm not 100% sure what that means)... I was merely making the point that we have this set of rules which is very much like the Pathfinder rules we've all come to know and love - VERY much - except that it seems to be an all or nothing thing, my party will have to pick one or the other when making their characters, designing their builds, planning campaigns and adventures, etc. We will have to either go with the standard version of Pathfinder or the 'Mythic' version of Pathfinder - or so it seems, anyway.
I've repeatedly expressed my excitement about the upcoming AP, I just have reservations about the new rules system - blame it on someone who got burned by going all-in on 4th Edition D&D only to have the rug pulled out from under my feet with the new 'Essentials' line... or falling completely in love with White Wolf's World of Darkness line and committing fully to that only to have it shift gears to a newer rules system. I'm just a little gun-shy is all, and now with an AP I'm incredibly excited about, its again looking like I'm going to have to buy in whether I want to or not. I've spent a lot of money and a lot of time supporting things that, themselves, are no longer supported and I saw Pathfinder as the system that I finally wouldn't have to worry about that with.
By "snarky" I meant "poking fun at a game option that wasn't interesting to you." Good to know that wasn't your intent, though! :-)
I can only ask you to wait and see how Wrath of the Righteous comes out. If I do my job right, it will remain a challenging and entertaining set of adventures. My goal is NOT to build an adventure path that mythic characters cakewalk through. But it's very VERY likely that you will indeed need to play mythic characters if you want to play through the entire AP.
I certainly understand the trepidation about new rules systems... but we are not intending to replace Pathfinder with Mythic. Any more so than we replaced clerics with oracles, or magic with guns. It's an addition, not a replacement.
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As for the repercussions... ALL of our Adventure Paths have them. ALL of our Adventure Paths change Golarion in some way. Some of these ways are smaller than others, but in some cases, they result in the rulers of cities or nations changing, or result in the revelation of a huge secret (such as the nature of an ancient civilization like Thassilon or the drow), or even result in additions or subtractions to the world map.
I know this isn't the proper place to ask this, but since you brought it up I can't help but ask. Is there any sort of future plan to release an updated Inner Sea World Guide that reflects the various changes? Something where the timeline has advanced beyond the timeline in the ISWG that came out previously? Or maybe even a smaller campaign setting book that has a kind of overview of recent events, that would only cover the changes to rulers of cities/nations or map changes?
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Creative Director
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1) A Full on Mythic campaign like Wrath of the Righteous where Mythic is a mainstay and permanent throughout the campaign
2) A Regular Pathfinder campaign where there might be 1 or 2 encounters where the PCs are blessed with Mythic power by an Artifact or a God but then Mythic Power is then taken away after the fight or adventure (The playtest included an adventure that followed this idea).
3) A Regular Pathfinder Campaign that never allows the PCs to touch the Mythic rules but might include a fight or a few against Mythic Monsters!
4) A Regular Pathfinder Campaign that goes all the way to level 20 then starts using Mythic as 21st level and beyond!
or
5) A GM could entirely ignore the Mythic rules all together.
Just to manage expectations a bit for the Wrath of the Righteous AP, since this post is in this thread and not on a generic Mythic thread...
1) This is the goal of the Wrath of the Righteous AP. It will work for this, because we're building it to do this.
2) This is not something we're planning on doing at all with Wrath of the Righteous. Mostly because it's not one adventure—it's an entire start-to-finish campaign.
3) The campaign could, in theory, be used in this way, but you'll need to bolster the printed adventures with additional encounters, or simply abandon XP entirely and level up PCs where we say they should level up, and will hit the level cap somewhere near the start of the 5th adventure at which point the last 2 adventures will become increasingly difficult, meaning you might want to stop your particular AP at the end of book 4.
4) That'd be tough to do with this AP, since the progression of encounter difficulty assumes your PCs are gaining levels and tiers simultaneously.
5) In which case, you should run a different AP.
I know Deskari is technically the mastermind behind the Worldwound....but will Areelu Vorlesh be making an appearance in the AP ?
She is in many ways just as responsible.
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Creative Director
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I know Deskari is technically the mastermind behind the Worldwound....but will Areelu Vorlesh be making an appearance in the AP ?
She is in many ways just as responsible.
If you really can't wait...
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Creative Director
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As for the repercussions... ALL of our Adventure Paths have them. ALL of our Adventure Paths change Golarion in some way. Some of these ways are smaller than others, but in some cases, they result in the rulers of cities or nations changing, or result in the revelation of a huge secret (such as the nature of an ancient civilization like Thassilon or the drow), or even result in additions or subtractions to the world map.I know this isn't the proper place to ask this, but since you brought it up I can't help but ask. Is there any sort of future plan to release an updated Inner Sea World Guide that reflects the various changes? Something where the timeline has advanced beyond the timeline in the ISWG that came out previously? Or maybe even a smaller campaign setting book that has a kind of overview of recent events, that would only cover the changes to rulers of cities/nations or map changes?
Nope; no plan to do this yet. Maybe some day. For now, I'm not interested in presenting the perception that all of our current adventures and storylines are obsolete.
Maybe some day when the stars are right.
Likewise, a mythic adventure is a different creature than a core adventure—the notion of a 13th level alchemist taking down a CR 15 foe is indeed ridiculous for the core game, but NOT for a Mythic Game. Keep in mind that a 13th level alchemist is likely a tier 6 mythic character, and as such his power level should be more akin to a 16th level character. The idea of a 16th level character taking down a CR 15 monster in a single round isn't all that outlandish to me.
When making comparisons, make sure that the comparison is valid.
I shall spoiler my reply to this, since it does not appear to be on topic.
That 13th level alchemist eliminated that CR 15 foe as a base class strictly, not as a mythic character. It was during out Serpent Skull campaign, and it happened roughly 10 months ago--in other words, long before the mythic stuff was revealed to us. Admittedly, the player is a numbers cruncher, so he knows exactly how to put things together for maximum effectiveness.
My reservations about mythic, then (and I'm sure you've heard this same type of thing a million times by now), revolves around how it will be able to keep things from turning into a one man show (based upon whomever wins initiative on a given round) due to the vastly increased power levels we're talking about here. This reservation comes in light of the fact that if a straight base class can walk a creature two CR steps above it at 13th level in the core game, how much easier will it be for a mythic-tiered character to be able to do so? Thus, it makes for a much greater struggle providing anything challenging for the players and vastly reducing the need for teamwork. Sure, a 13th level alchemist/tier 6 mythic character (ie. 16th level character equivalent) would and should destroy a foe one CR below it, but my concern is that such a character will easily destroy CR 18-19 foes with just as much ease when we look at the power levels of characters once we start reaching the higher levels.
This is not a blast against mythic! This is a reservation I have about mythic based on the current power levels of mere 13th level characters (such as the alchemist I mentioned above).
I've spent more money with your company than ever I had with 2E AD&D, so I think it's pretty obvious I appreciate your products. This one just concerns me a little based on the experience I've had with higher level characters in my games completely making their companions unnecessary. It's something I get concerned about. That's all.
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Likewise, a mythic adventure is a different creature than a core adventure—the notion of a 13th level alchemist taking down a CR 15 foe is indeed ridiculous for the core game, but NOT for a Mythic Game. Keep in mind that a 13th level alchemist is likely a tier 6 mythic character, and as such his power level should be more akin to a 16th level character. The idea of a 16th level character taking down a CR 15 monster in a single round isn't all that outlandish to me.
When making comparisons, make sure that the comparison is valid.
I shall spoiler my reply to this, since it does not appear to be on topic.
** spoiler omitted **...
One of the nice things about Mythic though.. is that it is an "option". One that is not a required rule book nor is the AP a required adventure to run. So while you may or may not have reservations about the rule set. Check them out.. see if you like them and then decide from there. Meanwhile just remember that it is an option and not a core book. :)
I think that with this type of AP you really need to have mythic characters.
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Any chance of the characters from The WorldWound Gambit showing up as NPCs?