Wrath of the Righteous: What do we know?


Wrath of the Righteous

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Tangent101 wrote:


If I were to guess as to when we'd see Mythic characters in WotR, I'd say either it will be at the end of the first "chapter" or part of the first AP book... or at the climactic battle at the end of the AP itself. It seems likely the latter will be the case, as it allows characters to slowly grow and develop without having Mythic rules dominating the setting.

In addition, WotR will have information on how to run the game without Mythic rules. Rather than clutter the first AP with that data, it seems likely the Mythic Rules appear at the end so to allow the AP to better build on the atmosphere and setting of the Worldwound and what the players are doing here.

Except James Jacobs has said that Mythic will be inserted into WotR right from the first chapter of the AP. . . and the product description for the first book verifies as much. Characters attain Mythic near the end of the first chapter and will be advancing Mythic Tiers throughout the AP.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Heh. Well, I'm a critic. I'm used to being wrong. ;)

So it seems more likely then that the first chapter ends with the Mythic encounter that allows the party to become Mythic characters. Probably after they've gained 2nd level, however.


Well you do also say that could be the other possibility so you're not totally off-base. ;)

As for levels, per the product description of the second chapter, it looks like they're shooting for Level 6 Mythic Tier 1 by the end of the first chapter. Granted, these are the "early stage" product descriptions so that's subject to change before it sees print.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

An even better example of relevancy is if Shattered Star becomes cannon, than the Magnimar book is already out of date, since A good chunk of the city is taken out by a Tsunami, and a lost Thassilonian city now sits offshore. That all happens as part of the AP, not just a hypothetical possibility depending on if the PCs win or not.

I think you can carefully advance the timeline like they did in Shattered Star (by being vague and only advancing things when necessary). Entire inner sea cannon advancement is going to render a lot of stuff current product unsellable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

You know I'm supprised there hasn't been more comments on the little tidbit from the third volume's description. The fact that apparently Desna has a redeemed succubus follower who she seemingly converted personally.


Block Knight, Tangent, I think you're confusing each other by using the word "chapter" to mean different things.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Okay. Let me explain further.

The First Book of the WotR AP will be composed of several parts or chapters.
My theory was that at the end of the first Book, the characters would gain Mythic abilities.

Block Knight pointed out that what's been said suggests this would happen sooner.

I do recall one of Paizo's writers commented that the players will not start out with Mythic and would not gain this as of 1st level.

Seeing the players often become second level just prior to the end of the first Part/Chapter of the First Book of the AP, this could be a point in which they are exposed to a Mythic situation. From what I've read in the Mythic rules, however, that seems... out of place. I'm betting the Mythic aspect takes place later in the first AP Book.

But you know? It honestly doesn't matter. It'll be where it happens. We're just all speculating anyway.


Actually, yeah, I meant to say "next book" in both of my previous posts instead of "chapter".

As for misinterpreting Tangent101's post, this is what threw me off:

Tangent101 wrote:

If I were to guess as to when we'd see Mythic characters in WotR, I'd say either it will be at the end of the first "chapter" or part of the first AP book... or at the climactic battle at the end of the AP itself. It seems likely the latter will be the case, as it allows characters to slowly grow and develop without having Mythic rules dominating the setting.

Rather than clutter the first AP with that data, it seems likely the Mythic Rules appear at the end so to allow the AP to better build on the atmosphere. . .

Rereading this, Evil Midnight Lurker is right. I'm actually in agreement with your speculation now that I realize what you're referring to. Apologies to you Tangent for misconstruing your statement, it was your interchanging of "book" and "AP' to mean the same thing that confused me. When I see "AP" I generally take that to mean the entire Adventure Path.

Thanks for clearing that up Evil Midnight Lurker.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tangent101 wrote:
Actually, no. Right now I do NOT have a Paizo book about Golarion elves. Thus whether or not the book is accurate makes no difference to me.

So, consistency in your argumentation is fully optional. Got it.

Tangent101 wrote:
However, why don't you go and create a "Paizo needs to create a new edition of Pathfinder" discussion thread and let this one return to the discussion of Wrath of the Righteous. Which I tried to do and you promptly ignored in order to keep beating on a hooved mammal that is pining for the fjords.

You can yell at Jim, too, for that matter, since he pointed out that this topic has relevance to Wrath.

Anyway, since it is very apparent that we already said out pieces and won't agree, I'll stop it here.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

magnuskn wrote:

You can yell at Jim, too, for that matter

I am available for yelling!

magnuskn wrote:
since he pointed out that this topic has relevance to Wrath.

To be fair, a lot of this is off topic. I was trying to get it back on topic.

Ultimately, most people aren't ready for the timeline to be advanced, and that is the deciding factor. I don't when they'll ever be ready, but when they are, then that will be the time.

Edit: And this was said playfully. If you're ready to stop, please don't let me egg you on. It might be time to just disagree. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Magnuskn, I was being snarky. But then, I'm the man with "Tangent" for a name and I'm trying to knock the discussion off this tangent and back to the main point... because the argument had been done to death and it was time to go back to the main point. :P

I must admit some curiosity as to how the Mythic levels will influence the non-mythic bits. There is of course one simple way of NOT using Mythic characters... and that's allow the players to go past level 20. This could even allow people to have a couple levels in a Prestige class and yet still hit that Level 20 Sweet Spot for their main class. :)

But I'll likely just use the Mythic rules. (Amusingly, I tried doing a mythic game many years ago (as in 2nd edition long-ago)... with the characters having very high stats and fighting mythic critters. It didn't last long, sadly enough.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jim Groves wrote:
Edit: And this was said playfully. If you're ready to stop, please don't let me egg you on. It might be time to just disagree. :)

Yeah, I think everybody here has said her/his piece and recognizes by now that our positions are not reconcilable. ^^

Grand Lodge

I very much support Paizo's position on not advancing Golarion's timeline. To be a successful setting publisher, you want to appeal to as many customers as possible. You will have customers who've been playing in your setting since the beginning, you will have customers who just started playing, and everything in-between.

If you run or play in Golarion with one GM in campaign or series of campaigns where the world remains constant (i.e. isn't "rebooted" with each new campaign), then you will see changes in the world based on the PCs actions and choices, and based on what the GM has decided to do with the world. Every time the publisher advances the timeline, they run the very real risk that it will seriously impact every gaming group out there who has been playing in the world for some time and developing their own timeline/history. The GM is then forced to either disregard the new material, try to change it to fit his story, or retcon the story to fit the new material. None of these options are good or desirable.

Also, such advances to the timeline impact any new GMs wanting to run in the world. They have to decide whether to buy all the supplemental material to be "up to date" or whether to run without it, knowing they will have similar difficulties in the future as the above example if they ever want to include the newer material.

There is no way for a publisher to win at this. No matter how they choose to change things while advancing the timeline, they will alienate many groups.

I dealt with this personally with the Forgotten Realms as GM. I was constantly having to decide how to deal with new material. This was in the 2nd ed. days through 3.5, I thankfully had given up on WotC by the 4th ed. debacle. My ultimate solution was to make my FR my own world, which gave me the freedom to do whatever the hell I wanted and disregard any new material I didn't want to deal with. It was likely hard on some players, though, as my FR was very different from the published FR. I'm lucky that I never had a player have a real problem with it, but I can imagine if a big fan of the FR had played in my game, they would've been very disappointed when it wasn't what they expected.

Paizo's statements that they didn't intend to advance Golarion's timeline was the single determining factor that led to me choosing to run in Golarion as opposed to creating my own campaign setting. Because I can count on Golarion being rather constant, I feel more free to make my own changes and let the course of my world take its own shape.

In summary, I believe it is the job/fun of the GM and players together to advance the timeline of a campaign setting, not the publisher's. It is the publisher's job to present a setting in it's "starting state" and allow players and GMs to run with it from there. Good setting books will include lots of bits of rumor and unverified history, etc. that can fuel a GM's imagination and give him or her some ideas of where to take the setting, but these should not be absolute truths (i.e. unverified information) so the GM can decide what to do with that tidbit.

I'm very glad to see James Jacobs sticking to his guns on this issue, and I'm sure that Paizo's position on this matter will serve them well. I'm glad that they have learned from the mistakes of others in the past, and as a disgruntled Forgotten Realms (and Dragonlance) player and GM, I'm glad to have a well-realized setting that I can call my own.


*sigh* here we go again. It's like we're never going to actually talk about Wrath of the Righteous.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, I think I already made my point at least two times, so repeating it once again would not add much radically new to the discussion. I'll let it lie, my feedback has already been given and obviously read by James and others from the development staff. It's up to them how and if they intend to act upon it in the future.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, there's a simple solution. Advance the timeline... to include the "official end" of all the 3.5 AP paths which people are less likely to play because then they have to convert everything to Pathfinder. ;) (Though admittedly I'm tempted to buy one, run it as a Pathfinder game, and have a 15-point build with "no buying or making magic items" policy. Just to make it tougher.)

There! The best of both worlds! You have world advancement for those who are demanding it... but you don't advance past the Pathfinder-specific APs which are more likely to sell! ;)

*dodges thrown items, thanks to the extra feats Pathfinder provides*


magnuskn wrote:


Hey, judging by wraithstrikes comment, I wonder if he would get into Golarion as a new player, if he would have the choice to do so right now. There's already so many materials to buy and read and understand...

I would, but only because I the way Golarion is done is to make it so that the amount of canonism is not that much, and a lot of it is left to the GM as to where his Golarion is on the timeline.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn't mind a more comple metaplot, but I just love those long novel series, so my preference is pretty clear on that alone.


Odraude wrote:
*sigh* here we go again. It's like we're never going to actually talk about Wrath of the Righteous.

You expected it to end? I expect to be having to ignore advance/don't-advance threads even after the AP's out.

I, personally, want to wait until this AP has been published at least to book 4 before deciding whether or not to run it. It sounds like it'll be awesome but I'm still wary.


So, what Aasimar and Tiefling specific archtypes can we expect in this game?
Also, hopefully we can expect new prestige classes? That would be awesome. As well as new magic weapon and armor properties.
I would love to see some sort of Tiefling barbarian class that simply lets the beast within loose. Something crazy like that.
Probably won't see it, but you can hope!

Also, the demonic equivalent of Empyreals like Ragathiel, whether they be Nascent Demon Lords or something else, more of them would be awesome.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ANebulousMistress wrote:
You expected it to end? I expect to be having to ignore advance/don't-advance threads even after the AP's out.

Well, d'uh. It will probably pop up as its own thread shortly. At the moment I feel like I've made my point and I can't add much new to the topic, but after Wrath has finished, I already have the feeling that the changes will be so significant that this discussion will have to be revisited.


Is there going to be a tie in with Treerazer and the elves of Kyonin?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Shalafi2412 wrote:
Is there going to be a tie in with Treerazer and the elves of Kyonin?

Not really. There's some elves fighting in the Mendevian crusades who trained in Tanglebriar though.


Ok. I just finished reading Queen of Thorns and was interested in this aspect of the demonic fight.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I hope this counts as being tied in enough to Wrath of the Righteous. I've been reading Worldwound Gambit recently (which is pretty good, except that the present tense narrative is somewhat jarring,) and mulling over Worldwound stuff and this upcoming path, and I think I really understand the demonic groove better now... at least, where it differentiates from the devilish groove and the daemonaic grooves.

I used to think that Daemons and Demons weren't different enough in what they want from the world. The Demons want to Destroy everything and the Daemons want to kill everything... it all seems to shake out the same.

But that's really shortsighted of me. It's really underestimating the demonic goal. Destroying is not the goal. It's the means. The Demons and the Abyss are like an ever spreading virus, or a fiendish zombie apocalypse, or gray goo assimilation scenario.

The Devils crave rulership of the cosmos, the Daemons want to end it, the Demons destroy and ruin all they find because the Abyss wants to infect, consume, and convert the cosmos into more of itself. The destruction of the standing order assists in the spread of demonic entropy.

Superficially, they have more in common with Devils because a cosmos ruled by Devils will be more like Hell, but the drive of the Demons is more instinctive, hardwired, almost mindless (in motivation, if not in strategy;) ...the spread of a contagion that expands because that is in its nature. It feeds. It grows.

I'm really looking forward to the Worldwound Path with this new groove for Demons in my head.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So, anyone got an estimate date when we can expect the Player's Guide to be released? Not sure about the usual timeframe before the first adventure is available.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Early to mid August, I'd say. Depends on when the first module releases.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Probably on the first day of GenCon, i.e. August 15.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hm, well. It says "Early August" for the release date of the first module. Unless they really mean "mid-August", the Players Guide may actually release in late July.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

As with all of our August AP volumes, the first Wrath of the Righteous adventure will be released at Gen Con. And as with all Gen Con AP releases, the player's guide will be released a week or so before Gen Con.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, 7th to 9th of the month. Thanks, James!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Thanks James, much appreciated!

Paizo Employee Developer

James is correct, of course. We hope to have the Player's Guide up prior to the release of the first volume. I'm still working on it currently, so now would be a great time to tell me some stuff y'all think would be good to include before I tidy it up and send it off to art and editing. I can't promise everything, but I'll do what I can.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Adam,

Can we/will we get a sidebar about playing a tiefling in this campaign? If I recall correctly, there are some challenges to playing fiend-touched races in that area of the world.


Adam Daigle wrote:
James is correct, of course. We hope to have the Player's Guide up prior to the release of the first volume. I'm still working on it currently, so now would be a great time to tell me some stuff y'all think would be good to include before I tidy it up and send it off to art and editing. I can't promise everything, but I'll do what I can.

Hindsight being what it is, I won't know until after it's released. I'm sure I'll think of something then...

Paizo Employee Developer

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Adam,

Can we/will we get a sidebar about playing a tiefling in this campaign? If I recall correctly, there are some challenges to playing fiend-touched races in that area of the world.

Already gotcha covered. :)


Adam Daigle wrote:
James is correct, of course. We hope to have the Player's Guide up prior to the release of the first volume. I'm still working on it currently, so now would be a great time to tell me some stuff y'all think would be good to include before I tidy it up and send it off to art and editing. I can't promise everything, but I'll do what I can.

Anything for characters that still hold to the old Sarkorian traditions would be AWSOME!

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Adam Daigle wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Adam,

Can we/will we get a sidebar about playing a tiefling in this campaign? If I recall correctly, there are some challenges to playing fiend-touched races in that area of the world.

Already gotcha covered. :)

Sweet.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Inquisitor love! Or how to be a cool Inquisitor versus a crazy sadist witch-hunter.

Oh I don't know what I'm asking for. :( I'm just going to play an inquisitor and I don't want to be a complete jerk. (If I wanted to do that I'd play a paladin! HA! Just kidding folks!)

Dark Archive

Ben, Jim, and John: let's all play paladins. Let's all play six paladins. :D

I'm just gonna shut up and wait for the Player's Guide and the books to come out.

Paizo Employee Developer

Oh, just for reminders and all, I'm not making any new content for the Player's Guide, so don't expect any brand new rules material. We've never done that for Player's Guides (at least not in years).

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Do campaign traits count as rules?

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

John Spalding wrote:
Do campaign traits count as rules?

So tempted....

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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I love that our whole WotR group just took over this thread!

Paizo Employee Developer

John Spalding wrote:
Do campaign traits count as rules?

Oh, sorry. In my brain, campaign traits were a given, so my quick post totally didn't take into consideration I'd worry people about them not making it in. There will absolutely be campaign traits, the same ones that are appearing in Player Companion: Demon Hunter's Handbook.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Adam Daigle wrote:
John Spalding wrote:
Do campaign traits count as rules?
Oh, sorry. In my brain, campaign traits were a given, so my quick post totally didn't take into consideration I'd worry people about them not making it in. There will absolutely be campaign traits, the same ones that are appearing in Player Companion: Demon Hunter's Handbook.

I guessed as much. It would be sad to see them cut. Plus, this really seems like a good adventure for them. I loved the peg-leg trait from Skull and Shackles and the similarly fun themed traits.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Adam Daigle wrote:
James is correct, of course. We hope to have the Player's Guide up prior to the release of the first volume. I'm still working on it currently, so now would be a great time to tell me some stuff y'all think would be good to include before I tidy it up and send it off to art and editing. I can't promise everything, but I'll do what I can.

Off the top of my head:

- Setting information
- Making it clear that this is an AP which best works with good characters. Nonetheless some advice on how evil characters could work out ( it already seems as if the idea of playing some sort of follower of Asmodeus is popular among some people ).
- Giving some indication if taking magic items crafting feats will be a good idea ( for example Carrion Crown was a campaign which had very, very fast pacing, it was basically over in two months in-game time. So an advice against taking those kind of feats would have been very helpful in the players guide ).
- I personally loved the individual class/race entries, which sadly were abandoned a few AP's back. I'd love to see those back.
- No new sub-systems. ^^ I think the Mythic rules alone will be enough to make my players heads smoke the first weeks.
- Traits which give players access to Perception and Diplomacy. :p

Dark Archive

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
I love that our whole WotR group just took over this thread!

We should kidnap Daigle and make him play in it as our fourth. Then I'll be the only schlub without a blurb next to their name in a full four-man team. :D


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Do we know yet if we'll be hitting level 20 by the end of this run? Last I heard it was a maybe yes maybe no kind of thing. Really hoping this one goes the distance.

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