Adamantine Dragon: Why do you think that "A character whose concept is built primarily around CMB will suffer at the highest levels compared to a concept built around direct attacks."?
Nicos demonstrated a fairly simply and inexpensive way to accomplish it (and can done also with non fighter although they lose out on fighter training/gloves of dueling). And someone who can keep an opponent immobile (grapple), keep them from advancing and full attacking (trip, reposition), take away weapons (sunder, disarm) or impose a variety of conditions (dirty trick) is a viable tactic in my opinion even at high levels. Some people might not find it as satisfying as inflicting 200+ damage but it still has a place in a balanced party.
lest see for example a 15 level fighter against, a reasonable CMB for the unbuffed fighter would be something like
15 (BAB) + 8 (str) + 10 (dueling FG weapon) + 4 (maneuver feat) + 3(weapon training) + 2 (gloves of dueling) +3 (Ioun stones) +2 (WF and GWF)= +47
And now lets see the CMD of mosnters from the CR 16 list
planetar 40
astradaemon 41
demilich awakened 22
Slimmy demondadn 44
Shemazian demon 46
Bdellavritra 41
Cornugon 44
Ecorche 43
mitrhal golem 55
hollow serpent 43
grootlans 53-55
Linnorm, Fjord 49
nightwalker 41
Oma 57
plasma ooze 44
zomok 39-43
Scylla 47
warmsworm 42
there are a lot of dragons but they have a CMD more in the range of 45-50The fighter will autosucced against 13 of 36 (36% of the total) monsters and against the most dificult one he will have 50% of chance of succed.
Of course, if the mosnters is inmmune again acertain maneuver the fighter still can just do a lot of damage.
Nobody says that a fully focused character optimized into maneuverings can't make maneouvers. Of course they can.
Now try to do the same disarming maneouver with a rogue wielding a MW rapier, for example. Or just make a regular fighter (not an uber-specialized one) to bull rush or trip someone. Take a twf or 2h or shield and board fighter, with their feats into power attack, or dual wield, etc. Now try to trip some equal level monster. You can't, because high level enemies are mostly 30 feet tall and weight ten tons.
The size bonus to CMD, and the huge str bonus of creatures, make it impossible. While this might be a feature, to avoid halfing pushing around great wyrms or titans, it also make other maneuvers, which I call "wit" maneuvers, impossible. A Dragon's weight of ten tons should be a deterrent to push him around, but it shouldn't be a deterrent to blind him with sand (dirty trick maneuver).
The catch-22 is that if you don't specialize in maneuvers, you can't use them at all at high levels, and if you do specialize in maneuvers, you run into enemies with flat immunities to maneuvers and your investment was for nothing.
And a +5 Dueling weapon of the type in which you already have your [Greater] Weapon Focus feats invested is a very expensive, very specific item that you're unlikely to find lying around or in random shops. Better hope your wizard has Craft Magic Arms & Armor so that you can beg him to grant you permission to use combat maneuvers.
Lord, I'm not the one who makes the claims you are asking about. You asked my opinion why people might feel CMB is less effective at high levels.
Besides the scaling issues, there is also the fact that at higher levels you tend to be fighting more and more creatures that have less vulnerability to CMB tactics, especially things like "trip" or "grapple". Many of the higher level monsters are huge, have multiple legs or otherwise have additional defenses against CMB maneuvers. However, hitting them with a stick almost always works.
That's the impression I get from others who have complained about the ineffectiveness of CMB builds at high levels. I've never created one myself.
For more details you'll need to get a response from one of those people you are referring to who have made the claims you are challenging.
Unfortunately, you can't just take a list of all opponents of a CR and say "This number beats all those numbers", since there are a LOT more factors that apply into it. Weapons may not apply to combat maneuvers, foes may have additional legs that make trips more difficult, foes may be flying or legless and impossible to trip, foes may be unarmed attackers and impossible to disarm ... and plenty of creatures have cheap access, if not the ability, of Freedom of Movement that negates grapples. Of course, maneuvers also have limitations on what size creatures you can perform them on -- if you can only perform them on a creature one size category bigger than yourself, then you'd better increase your size if you want to ever Bull Rush something bigger than a Large creature. I seem to remember looking at the CR 20-or-so creatures after Bestiary 2 and noticing that there wasn't anything smaller than Large in play.
Then there's the slew of abilities that mitigate the effectiveness of maneuvers even if they don't modify the chances. Plenty of high CR creatures that DO have weapons have the ability to generate them At Will if they're ever disarmed. Plenty of creatures have the ability to Teleport or Dimension Door, which makes your Drags, Repositions and so on less meaningful if you want more than just Attacks of Opportunity. As Adamantine said, many enemies use sense other than sight and wouldn't be much harmed by Dirty Trick's blinding effect.
I think the Combat Maneuvers system is better than 3.5. It's certainly usable -- but I really am not sure I like the idea at very high levels.
You gain your attack bonuses when the weapon is applicable to the maneuver -- as far as I can tell, you typically can't use weapon-related bonuses on Bull Rush, Overrun, Steal, Drag, Reposition maneuvers. If your weapon has the Trip property, then you can use its bonuses for Drag and Reposition maneuvers. The Polearm Master can use Sweeping Fend to perform Bull Rushes with his weapon, but with a -4 penalty.
I could maybe see pursuing Combat Maneuvers, but if I did, I wouldn't make it the single focus of my character -- just like I've seen fire specialists get screwed over time and time again, I wouldn't want the same to happen to my martial character.
Instead, I'd pursue attack bonuses as best I could, and spend one or two feats on maneuvers if I already needed the prerequisite feat for something else. Further, I wouldn't invest in maneuvers that don't allow bonuses from my weapon, since denying myself those really is relegating myself to succeeding on 18s or somesuch, or maneuvers that are size-dependent. Reasonable investment in combat maneuvers should grant reasonable returns, but I think that investing more than that would give a diminishing benefit.
Nobody says that a fully focused character optimized into maneuverings can't make maneouvers. Of course they can.Now try to do the same disarming maneouver with a rogue wielding a MW rapier, for example. Or just make a regular fighter (not an uber-specialized one) to bull rush or trip someone. Take a twf or 2h or shield and board fighter, with their feats into power attack, or dual wield, etc. Now try to trip some equal level monster. You can't, because high level enemies are mostly 30 feet tall and weight ten tons.
The size bonus to CMD, and the huge str bonus of creatures, make it impossible. While this might be a feature, to avoid halfing pushing around great wyrms or titans, it also make other maneuvers, which I call "wit" maneuvers, impossible. A Dragon's weight of ten tons should be a deterrent to push him around, but it shouldn't be a deterrent to blind him with sand (dirty trick maneuver).
He is using one +1 enhancement (Dueling FG) and two magic items (wayfinder + ion stone) that are outside what a "regular fighter would use". Also as I mentioned I would not recommend ANYONE at ANY level to perform a Combat Maneuver without at least the "improved" feat (so no AoO) and would recommend the greater if you think you are actually going to use it often (more bonuses and cool stuff).
Less then full BAB character (like a rogue) will always be behind a full BAB character in Combat Maneuvers without specializing in it. And, although it sometimes annoys me, by higher levels grappling or repositioning a monster the size of an apartment building is common for the fighter as the wizard is opening holes in reality and teleporting you across planes and the cleric is bringing people back from the dead....
He is using one +1 enhancement (Dueling FG)
He is using a +5 enhancement, hence why it's a +10 bonus.
Also, someone please explain to me how 5500 gold for a +2 CMD/CMD, +2 Survival, and Light (this is a cantrip, mind you) at will is broken?
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I'm not terribly bothered by wrestling colossi. 20th level wizards can become immortal; 20th level Ninjas can become invisible just because. In a world of resurrection and stopping time, it makes a 20th level fighter more interesting than 'hits harder'.
He is using one +1 enhancement (Dueling FG)He is using a +5 enhancement, hence why it's a +10 bonus.
Also, someone please explain to me how 5500 gold for a +2 CMD/CMD, +2 Survival, and Light (this is a cantrip, mind you) at will is broken?
Well, if you are speaking of a "dusty rose prism Ioun stone" and a "wayfinder" then for starters you left out a +1 insight bonus to AC.
So the question is "is it balanced for it to cost 5,000g for the most stackable +1 AC bonus in a slotless Ioun stone"?
If the answer to that is "yes", then the next question is"
"Is it broken for 500g to provide a +2 bonus to CMB/CMD, a +2 bonus to survival and "light" at will?
In which case I'd answer the second question with "In spades it is."
Especially considering an at-will Light effect in an item costs 450gp by itself. (Spell level x caster level x 1800gp; 0-level spells count as 1/2 a level)
+2 Survival costs 400gp by itself. (bonus squared x 100gp) However, its only a bonus on check to avoid getting lost. So it would be somewhat cheaper. Call it 200gp then.
So combined, thats a minimum of 650gp. If you apply the cost increase for different abilities, thats 750gp. And thats not including the bonus to CMB/CMD.
The wayfinder should be something like a 4,000g to perhaps even an 8,000g item, especially since it allows you to stack non-slot bonuses with non-slot items.
500g is just an absolute farce.
And I'd answer it as no. The +2 Survival is something you can get from an ordinary compass (10 gp), and there are plenty of sources to get an extra 1 AC from, some of them a lot cheaper.
Especially when "Light" is no longer able to be cast when an Ioun Stone is slotted and the +2 CMB/CMD is only a sure-fire thing if you're the one to rule it is (you can always use the Randomly Rolled rule to mitigate that).
+2 Survival costs 400gp by itself. (bonus squared x 100gp) However, its only a bonus on check to avoid getting lost. So it would be somewhat cheaper. Call it 200gp then.
As stated above, the +2 Survival to avoid being lost is already in the book at 10 GP. So you've got 450 for Light, 10 for the Compass, for a total of 460, 40 gold less than it costs.
And I'd answer it as no. The +2 Survival is osmething you can get from an ordinary compass (10 gp), and there are plenty of sources to get an extra 1 AC from, some of them a lot cheaper.
Especially when "Light" is no longer able to be cast when an Ioun Stone is slotted and the +2 CMB/CMD is only a sure-fire thing if you're the one to rule it is (you can always use the Randomly Rolled rule to mitigate that).
Then I suppose we'll just have to disagree Rynjin.
My opinion is that not only is the wayfinder a laughably overpowered item for its price, but it is just one of a series of items that Paizo has introduced in their latest splat books that demonstrate exactly the sort of content power creep that destroyed 3.5.
Which I concede is just about inevitable considering the RPG industry business model.
But I don't have to like it.
He is using one +1 enhancement (Dueling FG) and two magic items (wayfinder + ion stone) that are outside what a "regular fighter would use".
That alone makes a "regular fighter" 13 points behind. 17 points behind if you include the feats. That means a character who want's to bull rush some foe in a cliff just because he has the opportunity to do so and it's cool, will need a 19+ to do what the specialized character do with 2+
This is not something only about combat maneuvers, though. By low level, any character can try to bluff an appropiated challenging enemy. The Bard in the group might have something like +9, while a half decent character, who isn't specialized into it, might have something like a +4 or so (something like a 12 Cha character with one rank and class skill), with the casual PC trying might have +0 to +2 (the CHA bonus with no ranks, if you haven't dumped it). By 20th level, the Bard has around +45, while the non-specialized character has maybe +20 (with luck), and the casual still has +2. So even the guy who put TWENTY ranks into his class skill Bluff, with Cha 12, has no chance at all to suceed against things that can't challenge the especialist guy. So at first level any fighter can attempt to throw off balance that guard in the ledge of the cliff, just that the bull-rushing barbarian has a better chance. But at 20th it won't work that way, the bull-rushing barbarian can do it with 2+ while the casual fighter can't do it even with a 20.
Maneuvers only happen to increase this effect, because the stepper curve in maneuvers DC, produced by CMD increasing not only by BAB, but also by Size and STR, two things that high level enemies have in big quantities.
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The catch-22 is that if you don't specialize in maneuvers, you can't use them at all at high levels, and if you do specialize in maneuvers, you run into enemies with flat immunities to maneuvers and your investment was for nothing.
This is pretty much the definitive point.
Trip, Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition, and Overrun are all maneuvers that are impossible to perform against enemies more than one size category larger than you.
Grapple oddly doesn't have a size restriction, but PC's aren't designed with grappling in mind and therefore don't have access to many of the things that make grappling awesome, like grab, constrict, rake, and swallow whole. Furthermore, you take a penalty if you aren't unarmed.
Disarm has no size restriction, but Disarm is not useful at all versus creatures with natural attacks and of extremely limited use versus casters. Even if the creature is wielding a weapon, chances are if they are an intelligent creature, they probably have some way to gain disarm immunity, such as a locked gauntlet.
Sunder also has no size restriction, but like Disarm is of not use versus creatures with natural attacks and again, of limited use versus casters. The big problem with Sunder is that you end up breaking all your loot, unless you're playing in Pathfinder Society. Your party is going to be unhappy with you if you destroy the BBEG's loot.
At the end of the day, it takes a good deal of investing to be effective at any one of these maneuvers and yet, pretty much all of them are flawed.
Yeah but a +5 enhacement bonus is something that mostmartial would want anyways so there is no problem there.
It's still a significant cost. Just because a car is something I would want anyways doesn't mean I don't have to pay taxes on it.
Uber specializaed? hardly.The numbers you quoted are wrong as someone pointed out the real CMB is 52. Even without the feats in maneuvers the number is +48.
This is, autosucced against most mosnters. I do not understand why you say it is imposible, the numbers are there, I could blind a dragon with a 4 and the CR of the mosnters is even one higher that the level of the fighter build.
Sure, and with a lore warden you have even higher bonus. But that's a specialized character.
Without the feat in maneuvers, the +10 from the *specialized weapon* that only a *specialized character* would take, and the +3 from the ioun stone in wayfinder (also something you have because you are optimized toward maneuvers), you have that the number is +35. That's what a regular fighter will have if he tries. And that's a fighter. With a ranger, or monk, or rogue, or paladin, it's way worse, as they don't have Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Training, and Duelist Gloves.
Also, you have to take in account the cost of opportunity. A high level fighter can dish 300+ damage in a round. So you can trip the dragon, which makes it prone for one round, or you can kill it, which makes it prone permanently. "Dead" is the best condition.
And that's not counting how many of the high level creatures are naturally inmune to those tricks. You can't trip a flying creature, you can't grab incorporeal creatures, and you can't disarm non-humanoid monsters to start with.
The catch-22 is that if you don't specialize in maneuvers, you can't use them at all at high levels, and if you do specialize in maneuvers, you run into enemies with flat immunities to maneuvers and your investment was for nothing.This is pretty much the definitive point.
Trip, Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition, and Overrun are all maneuvers that are impossible to perform against enemies more than one size category larger than you.
This alone makes most of those feats a bad investment.
eeehh...so? it is a cost way accesible for standars WBL, unless the point is "combat maneuvers are broken because you have to invest in them" then I do not see a problem.Yeah but a +5 enhacement bonus is something that mostmartial would want anyways so there is no problem there.It's still a significant cost. Just because a car is something I would want anyways doesn't mean I don't have to pay taxes on it.
It's an accessible cost, yes, but that +1 bonus could have been put towards something else for a Fighter not intending to use maneuvers a bunch. Another flat +1 bonus, an elemental property, even something like a Bane weapon would all be better for any other Fighter.
Just because the +5 bonus is "something he wants anyways" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered something that should be kept track of. You're effectively needing a +6 bonus now if you want what a +5 non-maneuver Fighter has.
The size categories can be somewhat overcome by enlarge person (they sill leave something to be desired but that at least gets a good amount of enemies), grab can be got with Hamutula Strike, constrict there is a belt that gives it to you in UE, I think there is a way for rake but not sure off the top of my head but I don't know any way to get swallow hole.
Disarm and Sunder are VERY USEFULL in a Humanoid based campaign...outside of that I agree they are way to situational.
Dirty Trick is almost always useful due to its versatility.
I have played with and as combat maneuver builds so much that it is difficult me to imagine a party without one. I have played from lvl 1-3 all the way up to lvl 18 with them and they have never ceased to be useful.
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The size categories can be somewhat overcome by enlarge person (they sill leave something to be desired but that at least gets a good amount of enemies), grab can be got with Hamutula Strike, constrict there is a belt that gives it to you in UE, I think there is a way for rake but not sure off the top of my head but I don't know any way to get swallow hole.
but now we've gotten to Roberta's other point where you have to specifically build your character to be good at one particular maneuver to be effective to the exclusion of everything else.
Dirty Trick is almost always useful due to its versatility.
The problem with Dirty Trick is that at higher levels, pretty much the only thing you're going to be able to effectively use is entangled.
Deafened and Dazzled suck and at higher levels the monster is likely going to be immune to blind, fear and sickened.
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planetar 40
Flies, so can't be tripped. Lots of spells/spell-like abilities, so sundering/disarming isn't very useful.
astradaemon 41
Like a planetar, and if it manages to grapple YOU, it will Eat Your Soul.
demilich awakened 22
No point in tripping, disarming, sundering. If you grapple it and shake it really vigorous, maybe you'll interrupt it's at-will spell-like wail of the banshee or greater bestow curse; then it's just the world's most malicious snowglobe.
Slimmy demondadn 44
Flies, uses natural weapons.
Shemazian demon 46
Flying, natural weapons, bites for strength drain so grappling isn't all that much fun either. Way too big for most maneuvers anyway.
Bdellavritra 41
Can't be tripped, natural attacks with 20ft reach, flies. If it gets into trouble it can try to use Possession (Su), in which case its own body becomes ethereal. (Gets you out of grapples!)
Cornugon 44
Flies and has natural weapons, but Disarming it's chain is worthwhile because the chain has a nasty stun attack.
Ecorche 43
You can trip it. On the other hand, it's a pure melee monster with a very nasty attack, so why not just kill it from the sky?
mitrhal golem 55
Too big to trip, and has natural weapons. Probably immune to dirty tricks due to being a construct.
hollow serpent 43
Freedom of movement, can't be tripped, and natural weapons.
grootlans 53-55
Gargantuan, natural weapons, and if it bites you while grappling you, the attack is always a critical threat.
Linnorm, Fjord 49
Freedom of movement, flight, can't be tripped, natural weapons.
nightwalker 41
I'm not sure how Trip interacts with Constant Air Walk, but since it's Huge, it may not matter all that much. It's got natural attacks and if grappled it can always channel negative energy at you. And it's got Sunder as a swift action, so better be careful of your precious Dueling FG sword.
Oma 57
It's a flying whale with Flyby Attack at 30ft reach, that will electrocute-bite you and then swallow you whole (at +53 to Grab).
plasma ooze 44
Probably immune to most dirty tricks. Can't be tripped, flies, doesn't need gear, and if you try to grapple it it'll engulf you. Actually, I can't find a rule that says you can't grapple oozes. Weird.
zomok 39-43
Flies, natural weapons, can be tripped, but in its native environment it can teleport as a [Su] action, so it can escape from grapples. And it's got a solid breath weapon.
Scylla 47
Can't be tripped, natural weapons, freedom of movement.
warmsworm 42
Can't be tripped, natural weapons, and too big for most other maneuvers. You could grapple it.
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So in summary: the planetar is the only monster without serious natural attacks. Disarm/sunder is only worthwhile if you fight humanoids.
The vast majority of these creatures fly or can't be tripped due to shape or size.
Many are too big to bull rush/overrun, but not all of them.
Grappling is possible against most of them, and some of them don't have a good response to that, others will do horrible things to you.
Dirty trick is the most uncertain; you'll be asking the GM if kicking sand in the ooze's eyes does anything. However, nothing has explicit immunity from dirty tricks.
I think ascalapus has made /thread...
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planetar 40
Flies, so can't be tripped. Lots of spells/spell-like abilities, so sundering/disarming isn't very useful.
astradaemon 41
Like a planetar, and if it manages to grapple YOU, it will Eat Your Soul.
demilich awakened 22
No point in tripping, disarming, sundering. If you grapple it and shake it really vigorous, maybe you'll interrupt it's at-will spell-like wail of the banshee or greater bestow curse; then it's just the world's most malicious snowglobe.
Slimmy demondadn 44
Flies, uses natural weapons.
Shemazian demon 46
Flying, natural weapons, bites for strength drain so grappling isn't all that much fun either. Way too big for most maneuvers anyway.
Bdellavritra 41Can't be tripped, natural attacks with 20ft reach, flies. If it gets into trouble it can try to use Possession (Su), in which case its own body becomes ethereal. (Gets you out of grapples!)
Cornugon 44
Flies and has natural weapons, but Disarming it's chain is worthwhile because the chain has a nasty stun attack.
Ecorche 43
You can trip it. On the other hand, it's a pure melee monster with a very nasty attack, so why not just kill it from the sky?
mitrhal golem 55
Too big to trip, and has natural weapons. Probably immune to dirty tricks due to being a construct.
hollow serpent 43
Freedom of movement, can't be tripped, and natural weapons.
grootlans 53-55
Gargantuan, natural weapons, and if it bites you while grappling you, the attack is always a critical threat.
Linnorm, Fjord 49
Freedom of movement, flight, can't be tripped, natural weapons.
I'm not sure how Trip interacts with Constant Air Walk, but since it's Huge,...
nightwalker 41
You do realize that tripping isn't the only maneuver you can do and besides, some feats require a maneuver check to operate.
Edit: Chugging a potion or having the spellcaster cast Enlarge Person on you enables you to now trip creatures of huge size.
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@shallowsoul: yeah, I looked at all the maneuvers. Did I miss anything important?
Nicos posted this list to show that the CMD numbers are beatable. My counterpoint is that most maneuvers have little useful effect on these creatures.
* Only 1-3 of them can be tripped (3 if you're enLarged; one of which is debatable, because it's got constant air walk). The rest are bigger than Huge, fly, or are just plain immune (ooze, snake).
* Only the planetar lacks Natural Weapons. None of the others are seriously impaired by Disarm, Sunder or Steal.
* Grappling is theoretically possible against all but 2 of them, but many of them have really nasty attacks they can use on you while grappling.
* Dirty Trick may work on most of them, but any individual trick is subject to GM approval, so that's not very reliable.
I can think of no important maneuver that will really inconvenience even just the majority of these creatures.
a great breakdown of combat maneuvers vs. high-level threats
Thanks for the detailed breakdown! I'd just finished building a claw/grapple barbarian before reading it, and now I'm more comfortable with my choice of combat maneuvers:)
(Shown with Rage and Power Attack active.)
Human Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist, Beast Totem) 10
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +3 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 145 (10d12+60)
Fort +17, Ref +8, Will +9
DR 2/—
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Bite +18 (1d4+17/x2), Claw +18 x2 (1d8+17/x3)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +10) +11/+6 (1d8+10/x3)
Special Attacks pounce, rage (28 rounds/day)
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Statistics
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Str 28, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +19 (+20 Tricking, +24 Grappling); CMD 31 (34 vs. Grapple)
Feats Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -3/+6, Raging Vitality, Rapid Grappler
Traits Ease of Faith, Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +19 (+27 jump), Climb +12, Craft (leather) +9, Diplomacy +0, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perception +14, Ride +5, Stealth +1, Survival +14, Swim +12
Languages Common
SQ fast movement +10, heart of the fields +5 (craft [leather]) (1/day), improved savage grapple, pit fighter +1 (dirty trick), pit fighter +1 (grapple), pit fighter +1 (grapple)
Other Gear +3 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +10), Amulet of mighty fists +2, Belt of giant strength +2, Boots of striding and springing, Cloak of resistance +3, Ring of protection +2, 2900 GP
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Special Abilities
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Animal Fury (Ex) Gain a d4 bite attack while raging
Beast Totem +3 AC (Su) +3 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Heart of the Fields +5 (Craft [leather]) (1/day) 1/day, ignore an effect that would make you fatigued or exhausted. +1/2 character level to the selected Craft or Profession skill.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Savage Grapple (Ex) Grapples always provoke AoO from you, no grapple penalties, grapple at +1 size.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Pit Fighter +1 (Dirty Trick) Selected combat maneuver gains +1 CMB or +1 CMB (+2 if not wearing armor)
Pit Fighter +1 (Grapple) Selected combat maneuver gains +1 CMB or +1 CMB (+2 if not wearing armor)
Pit Fighter +1 (Grapple) Selected combat maneuver gains +1 CMB or +1 CMB (+2 if not wearing armor)
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (28 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Rapid Grappler Spend a swift action to make a combat maneuver check to grapple while using Greater Grapple
Unexpected Strike (1/rage) (Ex) Once per rage, gain an attack of opportunity against someone who moves into your threatened area.
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I dig the thread title, I wish every thread had names like this one. Instead of "WTF PADALIN ALINGMNET?????" we should go with "Who do people keep disseminating remotely untrue opinions about Paladin axiology. A brief analysis and an invitation to a cordial discussion."
I dig the thread title, I wish every thread had names like this one. Instead of "WTF PADALIN ALINGMNET?????" we should go with "Who do people keep disseminating remotely untrue opinions about Paladin axiology. A brief analysis and an invitation to a cordial discussion."
+1
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@Blueluck: Keep in mind that this is just a sample; it's basically the CR16 monsters from Bestiary I and II, except the dragons.
But grappling does look like the maneuver that's worth developing. It's not for the faint of heart, but if you really go for it, it can work.
Disarm is probably very worthwhile if you're in a humanoid-centric campaign. That's quite possible; they don't get pages in the bestiary at CR 16 since they're constructed with class levels. So that can severely distort the "statistics".
Trip is probably similar to Disarm, although it's also possible that even most humanoids will be flying by level 15-16. I haven't played at that level, I don't know.
Ironically, classed humanoids may have Freedom of Movement much more often than monsters do at level 15-16.
Note that I said "most combat maneuvers" I should have said "weapon based combat maneuvers" that includes
sunder, dirty trick, disarm, trip.
Sunder and Disarm, yes. Dirty trick, maybe depending on the trick - you do not just say, "I do a dirty trick to blind my foe" and roll the dice, you have to declare WHAT you do to blind your foe, like kicking sand in his face (no weapon use there) or throwing something in his eyes (no weapon use there either). Then the DM has to rule if it is viable, and apply a modifier if he chooses based on how likely that is.
With your "average" fighter, getting the Greater version of each of these is twelve feats once you include Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and the Weapon Focus feats you accounted for as well. That gives him functionality except against opponents with natural weapons (investment in sunder and disarm wasted), opponents that are flying or even just too big (investment in trip wasted).
Against a flying dragon or a hovering demon with claws and teeth, that's nine feats blown for no benefit if you can't find a dirty trick to pull.
and grapple with hamatula strike
That's another four feats in cost (Improved Unarmed Strike, Greater & Improved Grapple, Hamatula Strike) and only works with a piercing weapon. That's sixteen feats your fighter has now blown on feats, at 15th level.
and drag, reposition with a trip weapon.
That's twenty feats blown now, and you are limited to foes one size category larger than you or smaller - a lot of big monsters out there this will not work on. Besides, do you have a piercing, trip weapon around anywhere?
and, the admitelly much more expensive, bull rush with an impact weapon or the less expnsive but more feat dependant shield slam.
You are already more than maxed out on feats.
EDIT: And the example above was an unbuffed character, any wizard,cleric or bard could make those numbers go sky high.
Monsters have buffs too.
Now clearly you cannot have the Improved and Greater feats with all maneuvers, so you have to choose which ones you are going to use regularly. Say you go for those that are usable all the time with any weapon (sunder, disarm, trip, and you can use your favourite signature weapon with them) then that is still eight feats invested that are only useful in certain situations. They have good odds of success, but...
Sunder - will not work on natural weapons, and does not guarantee success in breaking a weapon made of adamantine unless you also have one.
Trip - will not work on flying creatures, or creatures too large, and creatures with multiple legs get a bonus.
Disarm - will not work on natural weapons.
In other words, like most maneuvers it is useful when facing other humanoid foes but the feat investment isn't worth going for so many. Best option is to go for ONE maneuver, specialise in it and have it up your sleeve for use against the foes it will work on as a bonus to your other combat style.
The only way to always have a maneuver that will work well with a CMB that can succeed regularly is to blow every feat on maneuvers, and then you will STILL be out in the cold sometimes. Looking at your numbers, yes you gave your fighter a better than 50% chance on many occasions - and compare that with multiple attacks that can take out half the hit points of the target in one round, and what's the better option?
Edit: looking at your example fighter above, I see you have done just that - invested in just one maneuver. Dirty trick is nice, but you just lost out that +10 from dueling FG in the case of most dirty tricks you could pull.
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As a side note, I've paid most attention to Trip, Sunder/Disarm/Steal, Grapple and Dirty Trick, because it's easy to see how those will be useful.
Bull Rush, Overrun, Drag and Reposition - I haven't gone into those, but they all fail against opponents more than two sizes larger than you (three sizes larger if you use enLarge). You can't really use weapons to buff them either. Other than that, I don't think anything's really immune to them.
I wonder: are there consistently useable tactics with Bull Rush/Overrun/Drag/Reposition? I mean, you're showing around your opponent or getting to the other side, but then what? If you don't have a pit handy to shove them into, what's the point of these maneuvers? Is there some tactic with them you would try to use every fight?
Dabbler:
You would not get ALL the maneuvers....I was very confused when you said 16 feats then I realized you meant for someone to have all of them. I have never seen anyone specialize in more then 2 usually being Reposition and Trip since they have feats that go together and can make an excellent battlefield controller. Usually you do 1 which takes 4-5 feats or half for a non-human class with no bonus feats. And usually those classes have other interesting abilities to supplement what you lost in feat while fighters that only represents 1/4 of their feats so they don't care as much. And against a flying enemy he can't hit them to begin with without having some sort of way to fly (so the flying dragon is immune really isn't a valid argument...there is a whole thread about a fighter can't burrow so they are useless if you would like to go look at it). As for dirty trick using the weapon I actually created a thread yesterday about all the different ways you can use Dirty Tricks
With the Quick feat for those that take a standard action (or not at all for the ones that can be any part of an attack) you are using one attack to either move your opponent around, make them prone, or debuff them. As a fighter you would still have (at 15th lvl) 2/3 attacks left to beatstick them up. With grapple you could have them tied up and helpless (greater grapple: 2nd round pin, tie up or hamatula strike and rapid grapple: 1st round pin, 2nd round tie up as swift action). So by using one attack you could make an enemy blind or be prone or be now flanked by both you and the rogue and then you get to wail on them. Besides as a fighter its nice to be able to do something besides full round attack damage every single combat. Maneuvers add a little complexity, versatility and variety to a melee character for a relatively inexpensive (feat and gold) investment.
Ascalaphus:
Reposition is great to both generate AoOs from everyone in the battlefield and battlefield control. I am currently playing a Carrion Crown game where the fighter is Reposition focused and he moves the enemy around so they exit a threatened square of almost all of the other characters and keeps them away from the squishy witch (and me the alchemist bomber with crappy con). And it can be used with any weapon with the trip quality as per the Paizo blog.
Overrun is an interesting tactic for mounted people and I have heard of people using summoner eidolons to make it work well. Regretfully I don't know much about it.
Bull Rush is a great combo with a caster who likes to make pits, firetraps, etc. 3.5 had a fighter alternative class feature that allowed you to damage people by bull rushing them into stuff. In Pathfinder though it is definitely a more team duo based maneuver. If you made characters together with someone it can be really devastating.
I have not looked at Drag at all so I got nothing there...sorry
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I wouldn't dismiss flying just by saying "well, if it flies we're screwed anyway" - if you look at how common flying gets at higher levels, you should be thinking about how to fly yourself instead of preparing for defeat.
Flying is of course also the answer to bull rushing into pit spells, but it could work on Large non-flyers that you can't/won't trip. That seems a bit niche though.
I guess repositioning to provoke AoOs is a bit better than bull rush because you can still keep someone in melee reach where you want them, but that means you're kinda playing assistant to the people in your party who do the actual hitting... dunno how I feel about that, but it could work.
This thread.
Oh, and another question. If you trip a wizard, and he uses the Conjuration(Shift) power to move away, does he automatically stand up? Can you teleport back into standing position?
When under the effects of this spell, you can teleport up to 30 feet as a move action. You must end this movement in an unoccupied space that you can stand on within line of sight. Alternatively, you can spend a move action to teleport to a standing position from lying prone. Teleporting does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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planetar 40
astradaemon 41
demilich awakened 22
Slimmy demondadn 44
Shemazian demon 46
Bdellavritra 41
Cornugon 44
Ecorche 43
mitrhal golem 55
hollow serpent 43
grootlans 53-55
Linnorm, Fjord 49
nightwalker 41
Oma 57
plasma ooze 44
zomok 39-43
Scylla 47
warmsworm 42
there are a lot of dragons but they have a CMD more in the range of 45-50
So rather than rely upon generalized home builds I decided to look at the NPC Codex, the bestiary of core classes, for reliable comparisons.
Since the CR of the monsters are CR 16, I decided to use Level 16 NPCs...
Barbarian (Undead Hunter) CMB +24/CMD 33
Bard (Spellsword) CMB +15/CMD 28(+2 for sunder)
Cleric (Elemental Priest) CMB +10/CMD 21
Druid (Taiga Stalker) CMB +14/CMD 28
Fighter (Dwarven Arbalaster) CMB +20/CMD 34
Monk (Horse Monk) CMB +20/CMD 38 (+2 for trip)
Paladin (Mounted Paragon) CMB +22/CMB 34 (+2 for overrun)
Ranger (Undead Slayer) CMB +21/CMD 35
Rogue (Mage Slayer) CMB +16/CMD 30
Sorcerer (Natural Arcanist) CMB +5/CMD 22
Wizard (Deep Marshal) CMB +7/CMD 24 (+2 vs bul rush or trip)
The BEST CMB is the Barbarian with +24, Paladin with +22, Ranger come in at +21, Fighter and Monk come in at +20.
Sure different builds have different CMBs at different levels, but this puts us within a few points of "average" per level per class. Min/Maxers can have a field day creating one trick ponies that excel at maneuvers, but I think these better reflect the average player.
So what we see is that the average melee combatant has approximately a +21 or +22 to CMB at level 16.
Out of the list of 19 monsters above, 10 require a Barbarian to roll a Nat 20, 8 require a roll of 15 or better, and only the demilich is any where near an auto hit (just don't fumble!)
BTW I will note that the iconics max out at level 12, but extrapolating a simple increase based on level alone, the maneuver scores increase by about 2-4 points.
I think even with the iconics maneuvers would be quite difficult with many of these monsters. Certainly not impossible, but very difficult.
HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A party against one of those critters would have many more options. The Barbarian could be enlarged, have its STR or DEX boosted, be Hasted, be inspired, aided by another combatant, etc, to increase the bare minimum scores. Once you consider a party actually working together (I know, I know how often does that REALLY happen!?) maneuvers become a more feasible option.
[sidetrek] It is sad to see the iconic martial artist does not excel at what he is designed to do. [/sidetrek]