Probably not. But going against it is House Rule territory... which there's nothing wrong with. I just want to make sure, however, to note that it is entirely legal, and really not all that cheezy. Great? Absolutely. And it expands the utility of a sorcerer greatly. As awesome as a wizard? ... meh, I'm not so sure, because of all the costs.
I still don't see quite how terrific Witches are. I just rolled one up last night (we were making characters by random dice rolls for fun), and I'm not feeling the uber-power that some on here are claiming (though I'm pretty awesome at social encounters... thanks to my traits).
Incidentally, though this is probably a different thread: man, changelings kind of suck at being witches.
I still don't see quite how terrific Witches are. I just rolled one up last night (we were making characters by random dice rolls for fun), and I'm not feeling the uber-power that some on here are claiming (though I'm pretty awesome at social encounters... thanks to my traits).
Hexes, man. It's all in the hexes. Misfortune, Evil Eye (you can apply multiple Evil Eyes to a single target, so long as each different one applies to a different penalty [AC, Saves, Attack, etc.]), Cackle. Slumber if your GM doesn't ban it outright. Granted not nearly as useful in a many-enemies encounter, but against a single opponent or a pair, a Witch can cripple enemies easily.
Incidentally, though this is probably a different thread: man, changelings kind of suck at being witches.
There have been MANY threads on this very subject.
I suppose I can see that. :)
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That is entirely incorrect a definition of "House Rule".
EDIT: that's like saying, "Well, Wish technically, as-written, let's you imitate any spell of 8th level and lower, but because I say it does exactly what it says it does, I'm House Ruling it." That... doesn't make sense.
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Are you arguing the for the validity of house rules (something I entirely agree with) or that by simply going by RAW one is house ruling (which... doesn't make sense)?
Because I entirely approve of house rules in a general way, however it's still important to note when something is a house rule so that others can rule differently more freely.
EDIT: anyway, if we continue this, it should probably be elsewhere.
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House Rules are the GM's tools for keeping the game in balance. They are what veto things like Swords of True Strike, Staff of Free Wishes, etc.
Eh, the custom magic item rules are guidelines and whenever you deal with them you are in GM fiat territory.
Not allowing a legal combination because it is broken or unbalanced is a house rule. I can't see any reason to not allow the paragon surge + expanded arcana trick by RAW, so not allowing it would be definition be a house rule.
A first level Wizard can cast 4 spells per day as well, they just need to specialize and take arcane bond and with an object.
The Sorcerer gets a blood line Arcana and 1st level Blood Line power. The Wizard gets a bonus feat (Scribe Scroll or Spell Focus if PFS) and a 1st level School power.
So I think the Sorcerer actually comes off weaker at low levels compared to the Wizard. Look at the Wizard, they can get 3 spells plus their intelligence modifier. They have to memorize 3 spells and can use the bonded item to cast any spell in their spellbook.
Once you get higher level things kind of balance out though. Just at 1st the Sorcerer is at a slight disadvantage compared to some Wizard builds. Not really a big deal.
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Probably not. But going against it is House Rule territory... which there's nothing wrong with.Actually even allowing it is House Rule territory. That's a GM's job, you have to interpret the unspoken and collateral effects of mechanics and by definition, that's house ruling.
So maybe it's time to stop invoking those two words?
Following exactly what the rules say is, by definition, not a houserule. You may not like what the rules say, but in this case they are hardly unclear.
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At 1st level, assuming exact same ability scores (with the exception that Charisma and Intelligence are reversed between the two, as in, if the Wizard has a 16 Int and an 11 Cha, the Sorcerer would have 16 Cha and 11 Int), I suppose the sorcerer could last longer. But strength is an entirely subjective term. A sorcerer's purpose is basically to cast a few versatile or explosive spells often and violently. A wizard's job is to be able to, with proper planning, create solutions to complex problems with magic. In other words, a sorcerer is the sword that cuts the knot, while the wizard is the man who is clever enough to untie it. At the end of the day, the knot is still untied (and for the purpose of this metaphor, lets assume no one ever has to use that rope again...), but how it was done is very different. For instance, I feel no problems loading my sorcerer up with evocation and potent transmutation spells, since if he fails to kill something with the first fireball, he can keep trying again and again and again. Since a wizard can't afford trail-and-error, they have to use subtler spells that, while less flashy, have higher chances to succeed outright (such as spells that can incapacitate, like grease and black tentacles), so even if the spell fails, it still has some beneficial effect. Also, I personally like viewing a sorcerer as a different kind of team player. A sorcerer obliterates enemies with powerful spells that a wizard couldn't afford to prepare too often, while the wizard (who can only do so much, so often) makes use of spells that make it super easy for others to do that job for them.
In a previous post I tried to make too many points at once.
Instead I'll focus exclusively on Race Options, which directly impacts the OP's question about Level 1 arcane casters. My point being that there are a number of races that give bonuses to Charisma *and* bonus spells and spell like abilities.
There are some, but not nearly as many tasty spellcasting races that give bonuses to Intelligence.
Let's take a look at a core race like the gnome. Gets a nice +2 to Cha, a +2 to Con is never bad, and the -2 to str... well sorcerers shouldn't need to be strong. But look at how the extra spells quickly add up:
RAW
20 point build
18 cha (the rest 10's, 12's, and 14's)
Fire Elementalist
expanded arcana feat
eschew materials given feat
pyromaniac alternate racial trait
trickster trait (+1 CL with illusion spells)
wealthy dabbler trait (2 1xday non combat 0-level spells)
And here's the Spell & SLA List at Level 1:
0-level:
Acid Splash (Fire splash)
Detect Magic
Disrupt Undead
Resistance
Dancing Lights (1x)
Flare (1x)
Prestidigitation (1x)
Read Magic (1x)
Message (1x)
1-level (4/day)
Shocking Grasp (Burning Hands)
Enlarge Person
Mage Armor
Produce Flame (1x)
SLA-
Elemental Ray, Fire 1d6+1 (7x)
On our first day of setting off to adventure our little gnome has 9 cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, and 7 uses of a 1d6 elemental ray. I tried to quickly choose an assortment of offense, buff, illusion, and utility (there are others that could make a better job of it, I'm sure). With this many varied spells at her instant disposal, not to mention her charming and influential nature, our little gnome is quite the swiss army knife.
If we expand out to featured and uncommon races, there are even more wonderful variations to play with.
And there just aren't as many for the wizard. Yes, races that give bonuses to intelligence... but how about bonuses to intelligence *and* Extra Spells/ SLAs?
I mostly play either a sorcerer or a wizard. I did get a witch up to level 8. Currently I am playing a level 10 divination wizard.
I totally love the sorcerer the best. Every other feat level I usually alternate between a feat to add more spells to my spells known and a metamagic feat. If you are a human you can also exchange the hit point for a new spell. Shadow spells (conjuration and evocation) open up plenty of spells in those two respective schools.
That is plenty of spells for any situation. Extreme cases call for a wand or scroll.
Altho the wizard has some pretty cool bonuses (don't underestimate prescience when used with dispel magic and overcoming SR), and they rock with versatility, I find in my games the sorcerer rules supreme.
First off, I don't like sorcerers because of the amount of spells they can cast. Wizards get a fair amount of spells and the bonded item gives them that "oh crap" moment spell. Our sessions usually are only 4- 6 hours, and I have yet to run out of wizard spells. Spell number only worked to my advantage when I faced a wizard while dispelling magic--with the exception of that one blasting spell my sorcerer usually chooses.
The versatility of being able to choose metamagic feats can't be over stated. The arcane sorcerer can take on any wizard. With a few feats you truly only need one or two blasty spells (or any spell of each type), and you can modify it on the fly.
Intensified Spell feat is a must. Suddenly level 1 and 2 spells can act almost as good as 3rd and 4th level spells!
Having a high charisma with UMD as a skill can't be overstated. It doesn't take long before a sorcerer can cast divine wands with ease. I have even pulled off some awesome scrolls and staffs with my sorcerers.
At higher levels you can get a staff with both divine and arcane spells, then you can easily recharge your divine slots.
Sorcerers have bloodlines that let you use enchantments on animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids or use mind affecting spells on undead.
Sorcerers rock at high level summoning and enchantment spells because their charisma lets them more easily win opposed charisma checks.
I have never made a blaster, but sorcerers rule there too.
Sorcerers can match or surpass the wizard on versatility with careful spell and feat selection, minimal money spent on scrolls, wands of all types of magic, and being able to cast any spell on the fly.
Don't get me wrong. I love me some wizard. I have played many and am currently playing one I have had for a while...and he rocks! But I have to side with sorcerers being superior.
Metamagic = full round casting :-(
Being a level late getting the new toys :-(
Full Round casting is a cheap price for the ability to use them anytime you want. The Arcane Bloodline also lets you use feats as a STA eventually.
Sorcerers are only behind less then 50% of the time. And what they gain is over the top worth it. :P
Beyond 3rd level its is absolutely 50% of the time. FIne is you don't mind being *sniff* sub-optimal :-)
You mean 50% of the time between level 3 and 17. In 12 out of 20 levels they can cast the same level of spells as the wizard. They are only behind for 8 of the levels.
I am playing, do play, and love wizards. I just find sorcerers to be more versatile. In practice I have never seen a wizard more versatile then one of my sorcerers. The only advantage I have seen is in that higher spell they can usually only cast once or twice a day at one of those 8 levels.
Really, the sorcerers power surpasses that in my experience.
Beyond 3rd level its is absolutely 50% of the time. FIne is you don't mind being *sniff* sub-optimal :-)You mean 50% of the time between level 3 and 17. In 12 out of 20 levels they can cast the same level of spells as the wizard. They are only behind for 8 of the levels.
I am playing, do play, and love wizards. I just find sorcerers to be more versatile. In practice I have never seen a wizard more versatile then one of my sorcerers. The only advantage I have seen is in that higher spell they can usually only cast once or twice a day at one of those 8 levels.
Really, the sorcerers power surpasses that in my experience.
I couldn't find the EDIT button.
I feel I should clarify what I mean by "more versatile" then wizards.
1: Most wizards I've seen don't use most of their spells, but they do avoid their opposition school. With no opposition schools, sorcerers tend to have a better blend of spells at their disposal.
2: Sorcerers can take feats to increase their spells known or be a human and get one extra spell per level. Careful selection with metamagic feats in mind almost completely open up any spell you need when you need it. Scrolls and wands are cheap to fill in potential gaps.
3: Use magic devices opens up all magic to the sorcerer.
4: Bloodline Arcanas can be chosen to increase who your spell affects and the spell's utility. Think of Serpentine Bloodline and Undead Bloodline.
Your powers of compulsion can affect even bestial creatures. Whenever you cast a mind-affecting or language-dependent spell, it affects animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids as if they were humanoids who understood your language.
Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them.
With so many monster types, it is easy for wizards to prepare for one type of monster and be severely limited if a surprise shows up. They have no equivalent to open new monsters to the affects of their spells.
5: You do not need to plan for the future to use your feats, nor do you need to use up a spell slot to prepare your "escape" spells or "oh crap" moments.
I categorically dismiss the notion wizards are more versatile. On paper it works, but in encounters they tend to be pigeon holed by what they prepared and sacrifice too much for having that couple uses of a higher spell for the 8 levels they are ahead of a sorcerer.
I categorically dismiss the notion wizards are more versatile.It's different types of versatility. Wizard are more versatile in what they can PREPARE for. Sorcerers on the other hand are more versatile in making decisions in on the spot casting.
Both are good, it's a matter of choosing which you want.
True that.
I categorically dismiss the notion wizards are more versatile.It's different types of versatility. Wizard are more versatile in what they can PREPARE for. Sorcerers on the other hand are more versatile in making decisions in on the spot casting.
Both are good, it's a matter of choosing which you want.
These may indeed be different kinds of versatility. However, it seems pretty clear to me that the vast array of options available to a wizard in which spells they can learn and prepare on any given day is a much, much more powerful sort of "versatility" than a sorcerer being able to choose which spell from a very limited set of spells, they want to cast at a particular time.
Having said that, I like both classes. But I really like the comment that sorcerers are the barbarians of the arcane world. That's a pretty insightful comment.
To a point, but that's more of a certain type of sorcerer. It really would not fit my Rouge/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster.
LOL, true Lazar, but I would say that a "rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster" isn't actually a "sorcerer" any more than a "barbarian/druid/wizard" is a "wizard".