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Traps are a problematic in Pathfinder. They are mostly a nuisance rather than an obstacle or an encounter. It's a problem that needs some rectification. At the same time, completely rewriting the trap rules will require rewriting the rogue, and the trap stat-block. Troublesome.
So I've come up with a solution that uses some existing rules but also still lets trap-finders shine, while keeping other characters invested.
The Rule
When a trap activates, everyone in the area gets a Perception check vs the Perception DC of the trap, characters with Trap Sense may add this as a bonus to the Perception check. Those that succeed may act in the surprise round (roll initiative as normal characters with Trap Sense add their Trap Sense bonus to this Initiative Roll). The trap always acts on an initiative count of 10 + CR.
The players who succeeded on the Perception check now have a surprise round to act before the trap activates. Characters who passed the perception check know where the trap was triggered, and where the trap is likely to effect.
A character with Disable Device can attempt to Disable the trap in this surprise round by taking a -5 penalty to do the action hastily. A particularly complex trap may require a -10 penalty at the GM's discretion. A character with the Fast Disable talent may ignore this penalty (or take only a -5 penalty for particularly complex traps at the GM's discretion).
The Rule in Play
Merisiel, Amiri, Kyra and Seoni are exploring the Catacombs of Whut in Osirion (they are 5th level). They come across a chest, with weird writing on it which Seoni translates as the treasure of Keftet, the Quartz Prince.
The chest is trapped with a Falling Block Trap (CR 5).
Merisiel takes a 10 on her Perception Check, and identifies the trap, and the trigger (opening the Sarcophagus). She decides to Disable the Trap, except now horrid scarabs are crawling through cracks in the wall and floors (distracting the Rogue). Unable to take 10, she needs to roll, and sadly gets a natural 1, even with her bonus she has failed the check by 5 or more accidentally activating the trap.
Perception checks are rolled: Amiri, Merisiel and Kyra all succeed vs DC 20. Seoni, still distracted by the crawling scarabs does not realize the danger she's in.
Initiative is rolled:
Amiri rolls a 20 for a total of 23 (including her Trap Sense bonus of +1)
Merisiel rolls a 10 for a total of 19 (including her Trap sense bonus of +1).
Kyra also rolls a 10 for a total of 9.
Seoni does not get to act in the Surprise Round.
The Falling Block goes on initiative 15.
Amiri goes first, with Seoni oblivious she tackles the sorcerer out of the danger zone.
Merisiel tries to disable the device, knowing the noise of a falling rock might attract attention (taking a -5 penalty), she needs an 11 plus. She rolls , poorly.
The Block has its turn:
It attacks the two targets - Merisiel (Not flat-footed thanks to Uncanny Dodge, and having acted in the surprise round: AC = 19). Falling Block and Kyra (heavily armoured as she is she has an AC of 20), the falling block rolls .
Ouch! Both girls take damage, and the Mummies in the next room get a Perception check to hear the commotion.
Compare that to Regular Play
A trap gets triggered, the GM makes a couple of attack rolls, then some damage rolls and that's that. The players get pinged for damage due to one bad roll and we move on to the next encounter.
The party doesn't get to make any decisions of their own. This rule adds gameplay, and choice and that's the heart of good role-playing and exciting encounters.
Taking 10 and Taking 20
Another useful thing is the Take 10 and Take 20 rules. Rather than making your player roll (or roll in secret) insist that they can either take 10 or take 20 to search for or disable traps. Now whenever the player chooses to take 20, warn them that there is a chance of a Random Encounter (I say 25%, increasing by 20% every time the player takes 20). The more time players take in the dungeon the more of a chance a monster might stumble across them. Again this is about choice, do you take a cursory look over everything and risk failing against a particularly nasty trap, or do you take your time and risk alerting the dungeon to your presence?
Now for this to work it means you occasionally need to throw in traps of a much higher CR (APL +2 or +3) at the party. That way the players don't automatically spot every trap they stumble across. If the Rogue player has thrown everything they have into Perception (racial bonus, plus skill focus and alertness etc) then don't punish that player. They have spent resources to be great at the trap finding niche, let them take their 10s to find traps even beyond the normal range. Disabling such traps are still a tricky endeavour.
The only time you want the PCs to roll is if they are stressed or distracted. Disabling a trap to continue down a corridor because you're being chased by a raging ogre requires a roll. Disabling a trap while holding your breath underwater requires a roll.
Otherwise the character should take 10 or take 20.
This does seem like a nice rule. But how does initiative work in encounters with both monsters and traps?
DM, as always you amaze. I've taken to using build-up rules for haunts and major traps; that is that once you trigger the trap or haunt it actually takes a couple rounds, possibly even 3 for the full effect of the trap or haunt to be felt. I think this mechanic above would be great for baseline traps.
My only fear is that the PC(s) with disable device become essential and everyone else is left out of the loop. I have for months encouraged my players to try different things on traps to bypass them and, once they go into the "surprise round" then I wonder how many will remember to attempt those other maneuvers.
Still it is DEFINITELY worth a try. DM - have you actually used this in play yet? If so, how did it play out? Do you think your players were more or less creative when the surprise round kicked in?
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This does seem like a nice rule. But how does initiative work in encounters with both monsters and traps?
I've been pondering that very question. There's two ways to handle it and it depends on if the Trap is a combat hazard, or a complex trap. The simple way to test is that a combat hazard needs to happen immediately in order to be any kind of threat. A complex trap doesn't need to happen immediately.
Here's how I'd do it. When a complex trap gets triggered then Perception checks as above, those who succeed are not flat-footed against the trap. The Trap gets to act on its initiative count during the next round.
Example of Play:
Initiative:
Merisiel 18
Amiri 16
Kobolds 14
Kyra 10
Seoni 6The PCs are fighting some Kobolds in a mine, the battlefield is covered in CR 1 Pit Traps that the players don't know about, but the Kobolds do (they cleverly avoid the pits), as well as complex swinging axe traps (CR 1). Amiri charges towards a Kobold triggering a Swinging Axe Trap AND a pit trap. Perception Checks for any party members in the room (DC 20) to realize the location of the swinging axe trap and where it will strike. Meanwhile Amiri needs to make an immediate Reflex save or fall in the pit trap.
Merisiel passes her Perception check and knows where the axe trap will swing. She calls out a warning to her allies, and Kyra uses this new information to bull-rush a kobold into the path of the Axe swing. On Initiative Count 14 the kobold tries to run, but is tripped by Kyra with her attack of opportunity. It then stands up. On Initiative 11, the axe swings with a +10 bonus against the Kobold and deals 5 damage leaving the unconscious kobold swinging from a chain. Amiri meanwhile is yelling for someone to let her out of the trap she fell into.
During combat Traps serve a different function than alone. They are meant to shape the battlefield and provide opportunities for interesting combinations to occur. The above battle would probably be around CR 3 or 4 but made up of a series of CR 1 and 1/3rd elements.
@Mark Hoover:
I haven't actually had a chance to use these rules in play yet, but I absolutely want to implement it in the future. I actually think this means trap disablers become less vital because anyone with High Perception can hear the rumble of the trap and act in the surprise round, now they can act to save their allies or do something clever in the surprise round. In that surprise round someone might cast soften earth and stone, or use their shield to block an arrow hole. Trap Disabling is a weird thing, because what it really does is skip encounters, and if a player fails then they (or the party) get pinged on hp or whatever for failing one roll. It's the opposite of fun, because new information doesn't bring new choices. This system adds a new chance for new information, and a new chance to make decisions.
This is awesome. So gonna try this rule! Thanks!
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brilliant DM_aka_Dudemeister. two things:
1) Trapfinding and Trap Sense are different class features. Trapfinding (rogue) bolsters Perception and Disable Device checks. Trap Sense (rogue and barbarian) bolsters AC and Reflex.
2) if a character makes their initial (Perception) check, how much information do they get? are they merely alerted to the presence of traps, or, do they become fully aware of the exact mechanical/magical set-up?
i don't like how instantly Merisiel is able to explain to Kyra precisely which square the ax is going to swing through. i feel another roll is in order.
this second roll ought to come to those that succeed the initial Perception check in which either Disable Device, Craft (Trapmaking), or Knowledge (Engineering) (or, Spellcraft for magical traps - whereby a rogue with Trapfinding can sub in Disable Device) determines how much more information is given.
maybe this 'studying' could take a move-action? (doable in the surprise round - thus act-on-able if initiative is high enough in the next round) - OR - if you beat the DC by 5 or more, 'studying' is becomes a free action?
the DC would be equivalent to the disable DC, naturally.
dot for intrest
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I love to base rules on examples. The best example of trapfinding I can think of is Raiders of the Lost Ark, the opening scene. Indy makes an initial perception check to know there's some kind of trap, and his suspicion is that it has something to do with sunlight and holes in the walls. In that instance he chose to bypass and made an acrobatics roll to walk carefully around the lights.
So...I'd think that if PC makes a Perception ahead of time, they understand some generals about the trap, like where the poison dart is likely to spring out of the wall. If it were a combat situation that info would be vitally important since it would be like any other combat hazard such as difficult terrain or a noxious vapor.
I'm really liking this DM so thanks. I'll likely get some mileage out of it since I'm running a game involving a lot of fey and they like to punk the PCs and wear them down before going toe-to-toe with them.
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brilliant DM_aka_Dudemeister. two things:
1) Trapfinding and Trap Sense are different class features. Trapfinding (rogue) bolsters Perception and Disable Device checks. Trap Sense (rogue and barbarian) bolsters AC and Reflex.
2) if a character makes their initial (Perception) check, how much information do they get? are they merely alerted to the presence of traps, or, do they become fully aware of the exact mechanical/magical set-up?
i don't like how instantly Merisiel is able to explain to Kyra precisely which square the ax is going to swing through. i feel another roll is in order.
this second roll ought to come to those that succeed the initial Perception check in which either Disable Device, Craft (Trapmaking), or Knowledge (Engineering) (or, Spellcraft for magical traps - whereby a rogue with Trapfinding can sub in Disable Device) determines how much more information is given.
maybe this 'studying' could take a move-action? (doable in the surprise round - thus act-on-able if initiative is high enough in the next round) - OR - if you beat the DC by 5 or more, 'studying' is becomes a free action?
the DC would be equivalent to the disable DC, naturally.
That sounds fine. My idea of the perception check revealing trigger and target area is to speed up play. Strictly speaking the players should not know what is going to hit the target area (the axe example would show scrapes and grooves in the wall and floor where the axe will strike, and the trip wire or pressure plate that triggers it. The fact it's an axe trap need not be revealed just enough information about where the danger is in order to give the players something to work with.
If a player asks for a second check (Kn. Engineering, Disable Device or Spellcraft) then you can tell them the exact trap and its effects.
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More complicated, but I think this one is worth it in non standard traps.
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Yoinked for the "Carnival Prison" one-shot I'm planning out.
Also, I've had good luck combining traps with Haunts as well. Nothing better to make a simple Slamming Portal Haunt scarier than adding ye olde descending ceiling/closing walls trap into the mix.
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Dot
DMaD cool.
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I got a chance to use this rule over the weekend and I think it worked rather well. The PCs were walking down a forest trail, 2 ahead checking for traps and both missed their perception check. Normally that would've meant a giant tree would have fallen on them, done some damage, end of story.
With the rule in place the encounter looked like this:
The ranger and monk are in the lead, arguing over the nature of the wierd tracks they're seeing. Directly behind them is a dwarf fighter, stopping for a moment to take a nip from his flask, while bringing up the rear are a wizard and an oracle. Everyone seems distracted save for the canny dwarf who hears an ominous cracking of wood just over his shoulder. With a start he realizes the party's walked onto a "pressure plate" of sorts with ropes and vines concealed in the underbrush and leading to a freshly cut tree off the trail; a tree that's now hurtling toward the unprotected skulls of his comerades.
Everyone rolls another perception; only the dwarf made it so only he gets to react. He beats the trap's initiative only by 1. With no time at all he does the first thing he can; he slams both PCs out of the way but I ruled he doesn't have the time to go with them, so he interposes himself where they were. The tree hammers down on him and, having no time to prepare himself for the damage I declare it a Wound (we're using Evil Lincoln's strain/wound variant for healing).
Anyway it was very heroic. I was pretty impressed and it made the encounter feel much more like an encounter than a save or die moment. My next adventure will be a dungeon hack so hopefully I'll have more opportunity to utilize this rule. Thanks again DM!
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Trap Sense (redux):
At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus to the following rolls for every three rogue levels she has attained:
*to passive Perception checks to notice a trap as it springs.
*to Initiative on a surprise round triggered by a sprung trap.
*to Reflex saves made to avoid traps.
*as a dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Quick Disable (redux):
It takes a rogue with this ability half the normal amount of time to use the Disable Device skill. If this reduces the time to less than 1 round, she can make an attempt as a standard action.
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ps. i FAQ'd this thread because i think this is the best houserule i have seen on this forum and feel paizo should look to adopt it via errata. i will remove the FAQ if the OP would like me to.
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Wow Mark that does sound like a great encounter. Let us know how it goes in your dungeon too.
@Rainzax: Thank you kindly for your support and as much as I'd love for this rule to be adopted by Pathfinder that's a discussion for future editions of the game. The FAQ isn't really for voting on favourite house rules so if you could remove the FAQ that'd be swell.
I like the changes to Trap Sense and Quick Disable, when I get around to formalising this in a PDF I'll surely credit you. :-)
Just came across this. Very cool! I am definitely going to give this a shot in an upcoming trap-laden dungeon I'm running.
Question (if anyone is still monitoring this): but do you find the static initiative count for the traps at 10+CR to be sufficient?
I just use a base 10 initiative, unless its some kind of elaborate death-trap. I use a lot of basic traps like pits and snares in combinations with encounters, so the simple 10 seems to work just fine.
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i'll take a crack at it.
turn to the CR 15 Crushing Stone Trap (CRB p422).
Using these alternate rules it might run like this:
1) Assuming nobody is actively searching (or Trap Spotting) the area where the mechanical trigger is, the moment a PC steps onto it, the DM tells the PCs that they hear a "Click" and asks for them to roll Perception.
2) Those who beat the trap's Perception DC are allowed to act in the surprise round, and know that the trap will effect a specific 10-ft square. "You look up and see a huge slab falling fast about to directly impact two of your compatriots behind you"
3) The trap "acts" on initiative count 25 (10 base + CR 15). Any PC whose surprise round initiative beats the trap's gets to act first. (Remember to add any Trap Sense bonuses to this initiative roll).
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I'm glad this thread got necro'd, because this an amazing rule.