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Man, I really hate how threads get moved around all the time. I don't normally check out every single forum and so I'll be following a thread and BANG it disappears because its been moved from a forum I watch to a forum I don't. Really irritating..
Even more irritating is when I can still check the thread, but suddenly my entire breadcrumb trail I use to go back and forth changes from 'PathfinderRPG" to "Gamer Talk" and now I have to to all the way back to my menu to go back to the threads I am generally interested in.
[/rant]
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Sure, you can tone down 'excel' to mean 'better than an average schmuck on the street.' But that's not what most people mean by the term. By excel, I mean be one of the best at-- as literary heroes are. Heros are not slightly better than the average farmer. They excel. And that's the whole point of heroic fantasy, to be a hero (There are other ways to play, naturally, but the game is pitched as heroic fantasy). But if my fighter is slightly above average intelligence, charming, and has a modicum of common sense, he is automatically worse at combat than that dumb, ugly, reckless brute. There's not a large ability range at the low end. Going from a 18 to 14 str is a substantial difference, and definitely not what people mean by ' to excel.'The game does not "force you to dump stats to excel at your chosen field" at all.
The game allows you to play a wide range of character concepts. The idea that the only way to "excel" in one area is to suck in another area is a pure myth foisted by those who believe that "excel" can only mean "do the absolute best out of all possible options."
That's not what "excel" means. But it does seem to be what many power gamers THINK it means.
I don't think heroic fantasy is always about highly superior specimens, IMO it's more about overcoming tremendous difficulties and fighting against the odds. Even if you are just a gifted tatooine farm boy, or a hobbit with some natural gifts you are not a superhero and everyone warns you to stay home. Optimization style character parties is more about doing the job everyone else would struggle to do, but you find it easier because of your superior natural gifts, because you are better than them. Like the Avengers.
I prefer my heroic fantasy rpg like the former and my superhero rpg like the latter but each are valid styles of play IMO.
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The game math is built around the elite array which means 15,14,13,12,10,8 before racial modifiers. So there is already an assumption that everyone will have at least one negative stat modification. This also means you can survive with only a 15(17 after mods) in your primary stat. I think you could argue that stats of 17+ really aren't necessarily needed at chargen although having them certainly is nice. I think a case could be made that excessive stats can actually harm a game because the system just doesn't handle high stats well.
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1. I often don't agree with the optimization threads.
2. Depends on what you're playing, how your GM likes to run the game. In PFS, I'm told, social skills are a must, but you don't have to worry about your spell component pouch or spell book being stolen.
3. Do you play with the same group of charcters for long periods of time? I don't think I want to play Gork the Strongest for years. For a knockoff it sounds like fun.
4. Varied monsters, tactics, environments is what makes this game so entertaining.
5. Similarly, you don't need five high charisma characters for a dungeon crawl. You may not need one. For the spies and nobles campaign, evev one low charisma character may be a liability.
6. An 8 is a little below average but still functional. A group that didn't have a few 8's would be weird if 10 were truly average. (Yes, the PCs are exceptional.)
7. Optimized means different things to different people. The Leadership feat pushes it for me. Having a gunslinging cohort with leadership, and followers who dual weild wands and revolvers pushes it for others.
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Not every low score is not an automatic a sign of optimization, nor is one particular high score.
You cannot debase other people's style, make sweeping generalizations based solely on your own opinions, elevate your own style to nearly heavenly proportions, then try to weasel out of your own flame-bait comments with "my god, that escalated quickly" as if you were clueless the whole time.
Realize now, that your words are hurtful, and you have no right to condescend others for there choices in playstyle, and broad assumptions as to the details of their style cannot be made by something as simple as an ability score.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
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That is much less problematic than low charisma increasng the value of the items.
Not that I agree, but I think what the OP meant by having to pay more for items when a character has such a low charisma, was that people would try and take advantage of such a character.
My thoughts are that for that to happen (and be gotten away with), would be that a character would need (at the very minimum) a low wisdom score as well as a low charisma score.
But maybe that's just me...
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Nobody needs to "get away with" a low score. It is not some kind of damn cheat. I simply cannot comprehend this reasoning of this viewpoint.
Hell, a 8 is simply slightly below average, not crazy low.
Look at the Village Idiot NPC from the GameMastery Guide, he has a 4 intelligence, not a 7.
Understand your scale.
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Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Ah Mathew 7:1, the most frequently quoted verse of The Bible, and the most misunderstood verse as well; because it is taken completely out of context.
For it to apply in this case, that person (the OP), after having complained about the things that they posted in this thread, they would then have to be using the very things that they just complained about within their own games.
That verse is not telling us we have no right to judge others. It is not even saying that every time we judge someone else, that we are then open to judgment ourselves. It's telling us not to be hypocrites; it's telling us that if we do judge someone else, we need to make sure that we're not guilty of those same things that we're judging them of ourselves...
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Judge not, lest ye be judged.Ah Mathew 7:1, the most frequently quoted verse of The Bible, and the most misunderstood verse as well; because it is taken completely out of context.
For it to apply in this case, that person (the OP), after having complained about the things that they posted in this thread, they would then have to be using the very things that they just complained about within their own games.
That verse is not telling us we have no right to judge others, it's telling us that before we do, we need to make sure that we're not guilty of those same things...
** spoiler omitted **
That is not a misuse here. The OP says that other are guilty of focusing on only one aspect of the game, and disregards the others. This is indeed what he does, but with the focus on the other end of the spectrum. The use of the quote need not be used to compare the deeds of the accuser to the accused on perfectly mirrored basis.
Do not assume everyone misuses the quoted verse.
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That is not a misuse here. The OP says that other are guilty of focusing on only one aspect of the game, and disregards the others. This is indeed what he does, but with the focus on the other end of the spectrum.
But that's not what he's done...
He never said that his way was the only way to play...
He peppered his original post with phrases like "in his experience" and "at his table"...
He stated specifically that he disliked it when others said that the one and only way to make a good character was to do "X" (and that by not doing "X", one has failed to make a "good" character)...
Here's exactly what he said regarding that:
I'm tired of reading that if you want to play a good rogue, you have to be an half orc with a falchion.
Which seems to pretty much imply that these posters see only one way of making a good character, and that he disagrees with the notion...
The use of the quote need not be used to compare the deeds of the accuser to the accused on perfectly mirrored basis.
Mirrored, no, similar, yes. Mathew 7 as a whole is not meant to condemn someone for judging others, but to help others see any hypocrisy they may be holding onto...
So, saying things like "and you have no right to condescend others for there choices in playstyle" is not helpful, as it just condemns him without reason other than you just didn't like what he said...
Do not assume everyone misuses the quoted verse.
I don't! I implied that YOU misused the quote (and I explained how I thought you did so within this post)...
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In table top play, my players know that if they have an 8 or a 7 in a stat then they are expected to roleplay that. One player used to crack us up with his 'derp' voice when he played his low intelligence fighter. The casters took especial care of him because enemy casters could and would target his poor little brain.
On the other hand, the single best fighter we ever had was from the 'Roy Greenhilt' school of fighter training. I didn't run that game, but the GM would occasionally throw a dominate against the fighter only to have it fail, gloriously.
The point is that if you dump a stat and do not play that out, then you are not really role playing. If you dump the stat and then play it out as best you can, then you are participating in the finest traditions of role playing.
sorry for bad english
I'm a long time d&d player (ad&d, 3rd, 3.5, 4) and recently pathfinder. Love it.
fan of the forum, i spend many hour by month on it.
But when i read the optimization forum, it_s like I dont play the same game as the rest of many player.
maybe it's because my player are all near their 30, or because we are also world of darkness player, but I have never seen one of my fellow player put three dumpstat on their fighter to be all powerfull.
Who wants to play a dumb jackass for 20 level just because he can do 100 damage per round. What a boring character.In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.
Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
In my experience, most of the optimized characters found on the advice forum would not be viable at our table. For example, nobody seem to find viable a shield and sword character without the twf feat tree. But in my expérience, full attack action is a rare occurence in battle. most of the time, monster moves, character too. I,have played a rogue for 16 level in schakled city. I have had the opportunity to use twf only a bunch of time in two years play.
In many build, attack of opportunity is a must. But it's a rule that praticly never happened in our game.
I understand that some player want to optimized their characther for combat. Tht's fine. But what I see on the optimization forum are one trick pony good for a nova round in the right circunstances.
I'm tired of reading that if you want to play a good rogue, you have to be an half orc with a falchion.On some table, it's seem the r from rpg was taken out. when all the thing i want is killing and looting, I play a video game.
Just my two cent. have fun.
im a WoD player too, and has the same feelings about the munchkins... i prefeer the details, the adventure, the plot. im the GM at my table, and my players still has the R from RPGs, even when a munchking comes, they react as if he were a super hero and make him a leader... which almost always ends in a sudden death for the party, and after that, the munchking makes one of two options: or start playing an rpg, or stop from comming at my place to gming
your problem here, is that you played the best game system (WoD) and take this one now, which is flat, plain and has a bunch of rules which makes you take the highest stat for do something.
we play pathfinder, and love it. and make our owns changes, maybe those give you a better taste of the game:
drop the score bonus and took the AD&D ones
i add the initiative system from WoD since it looks and do beter than d20
i integrate the skills sistem from WoD at a rate of 9/7/5 points of skills at fist, and the next levels as the same way in the pathfinder does but the cost is like in WoD (total ranks in points for the next one, and if the skill is class skill for that class, it cost you one point less)
also for the spellcasting system we mixed the spell sistem from AD&D and PFRPG
our game has a lot of flavor, but see all of things we need to do to reach it
For me A fighter with 3 dump stats is hardly optimized.
But i want to comment about this
In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.It is not hard to make an acceptable sociable fighter even with 7 charisma and I do not see how having a low charisma affect the price of magic items.
I mean, If you dump a mental stat you would have penalties, there is not need to invent new penalties, and why it have to be only with mental stats do your grou invent new penaltis for low dex or con? or do your group heavily penalize a wizard with 8 in strengh?
its happen, because the charisma interacts with social issues. how the persons treat you, how they see you and whats the manner you say things
in my campaings we use Appeareance to determines how is the first impression when you met the folks or see you walking through
App= Cha score+Con Score/2. then i ask for d20+your app mod and thats it. the people from the town can came near to you, or start to throwing u rocks or call you names or simply run away from you
the same with the interactions:
you enter to the bar, make your app check, and this determines in what phase of diplomacy youll start the dialogues!!
its simple, flavorful, something like ravenloft outcastratting
the same bonus at your app mod can be aplied to your intimidates results insted cha, if youre a ftr, bbn, can add your con mod for intimidate instead app or cha (whichever were highest)
It's seems that i'am an experience gamer, the same cannot be said for the forum use. my bad.
Please, tell me more about how your silly house rules and arrogant elitism makes you so much better.
sorry for bad english
I'm a long time d&d player (ad&d, 3rd, 3.5, 4) and recently pathfinder. Love it.
fan of the forum, i spend many hour by month on it.
But when i read the optimization forum, it_s like I dont play the same game as the rest of many player.
maybe it's because my player are all near their 30, or because we are also world of darkness player, but I have never seen one of my fellow player put three dumpstat on their fighter to be all powerfull.
Who wants to play a dumb jackass for 20 level just because he can do 100 damage per round. What a boring character.In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.
Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
In my experience, most of the optimized characters found on the advice forum would not be viable at our table. For example, nobody seem to find viable a shield and sword character without the twf feat tree. But in my expérience, full attack action is a rare occurence in battle. most of the time, monster moves, character too. I,have played a rogue for 16 level in schakled city. I have had the opportunity to use twf only a bunch of time in two years play.
In many build, attack of opportunity is a must. But it's a rule that praticly never happened in our game.
I understand that some player want to optimized their characther for combat. Tht's fine. But what I see on the optimization forum are one trick pony good for a nova round in the right circunstances.
I'm tired of reading that if you want to play a good rogue, you have to be an half orc with a falchion.On some table, it's seem the r from rpg was taken out. when all the thing i want is killing and looting, I play a video game.
Just my two cent. have fun.
I agree Vince, lot of weird optimisers here, they think the game is making your numbers higher! HA!
Some builds are better than others, one campaign I ran for ages, the low charisma monk got into so much trouble and had a lot of frustration because as much of a tank as he was, persuasion and intimidation were not his strong skills. Bluff and sense motive he was half-okay at, but his weak stat was actually relevant in dangerous Sargava, this isn't all hack and chop, D&D with its great breadth isn't Golden Axe.
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*grabs popcorn* These threads always provide some good sideshow entertainment.
If these are the sideshow, are Japanese bug fights the main event?
2 coppers on the thri kreen!
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oups. I wanted to say : It's seems that i'am an experience gamer, the same cannot be said for MY USE OF the forum. my bad.Like I said, I did'nt wanted too start a war, only to explain my view. Let's not make it personnal.
Thing is, you have made it personal, by attacking other playstyles.
Some people like a PC with a low score, and some like to have an optimized PC, though those are not always the same player.
You have grouped the two, and accused them of a lesser, and "inexperienced" playstyle.
Many would consider that a personal attack, as it belittles their playstyle.
Even your apologies have a condescending tone.
If you only expected responses telling you how right you are, and how wrong they, or others are, then you are gravely mistaken.
Certain builds come with potential consequences (encumbrance, poor saves, low hit points) which are glaring in some encounters and negligible/non-existant in others.
If a more balanced build makes the game fun for you, then fill your boots. Just understand that you are rewarding/guiding your players into a party full of slightly better than average adventurers. Potentially vanilla, and also potentially less than useful when you need a great feat of strength and everyone has 12s across the board.
For me I like flaws. My barbarian had an embarrassing low WIS score, which lead to all manners of mayhem (failed will save on a dominate? All the smiles at the table turned to looks of horror that his damage might be coming their way), which was memorable and hilarious. Because he was great at what he was hired for, and horrible at other things, it forced me to lean on the others for what they were great at.
The game is just that, a game, and if your style of play is fun for all involved then keep it up :)
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For me I like flaws. My barbarian had an embarrassing low WIS score, which lead to all manners of mayhem (failed will save on a dominate? All the smiles at the table turned to looks of horror that his damage might be coming their way), which was memorable and hilarious. Because he was great at what he was hired for, and horrible at other things, it forced me to lean on the others for what they were great at.The game is just that, a game, and if your style of play is fun for all involved then keep it up :)
This is exactly what I am talking about.
From what has been said though, you absolutely must be a powergamer to have any low score, especially a mental one.
Also, you must be an inexperienced gamer, and have yet to reach the "higher forms" of play, and are still stuck in the more inferior playstyle.
Like a child with hotwheels, you have yet to experience the true joy of the sophisticated enjoyment of driving a real car.
Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.
Someone should start a thread entitled: The Importance of Flaws :)
This thread should have ended after the second post. This well is dry.
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OP, no, you're not playing the same game. Well, you're both playing Pathfinder. But you're playing it differently. And that's all it is.
As long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter how other people play. Maybe certain optimized builds wouldn't work at your table. Not something you have to worry about because likely, you'll never see them at your table anyway.
I would agree that I've seen suggestions for optimization that wouldn't work at my table either. Most of our games are 40-50% combat and 50-60% exploration, problem solving, and roleplaying. Knowledge skills and social skill get used all the time, as well as lots of actual player pontification, planning, and parlaying. So builds that work best in our games are ones where people are competent at combat but have not neglected mental or social skills. Some of our builds would suffer and die horrible deaths in another person's game. Some might do fine. It is what it is.
But since there's ranting here, I'll take an opportunity... the only thing that bugs me about optimization talk is ironically the same thing that is bugging some people about this thread -- the suggestion that someone is "doing it wrong" if they are NOT playing the way someone else does. It drives me CRAZY when an innocent enthusiast says, "I want to play a [race] [class]! Suggestions for things I could do with this?" And the responses are, "Don't play that race and class, it's stupid and you're playing the game wrong." Dashing both a new player's enthusiasm and discouraging creative roleplay. Especially since in many games, depending on how they work, the combo might work just fine. There IS an assumption by the optimizers that post to those threads that EVERYONE plays the way they do, just as non-optimizers will insist EVERYONE plays the way they do. And the truth is, that unless someone explicitly describes the nature of their campaign, we have no idea what circumstances may affect how useful a build is. My personal opinion is, all other things being equal, play what looks like fun to you, and anyone who tells you you're doing it wrong is in fact doing it wrong. (And I'm sure someone will be all too happy to tell me why what I have just said is, in fact, wrong. :) )
Does that mean it's bad to tell someone NOT to play a poorly optimized character, or to suggest a different idea? Of course not. But there's ways to go about it without, intentionally or unintentionally, giving a "you're doing it wrong" attitude. You can ask questions about why they are attracted to that combo. You can say, "Well, if this is the concept you're going for, I'd suggest building it with a, b, and c, but honestly, if I was building a character with x, y, and z abilities, THIS is the class/race I'd build instead..." that way you can provide advice for both what a player may have their heart set on, but still offer other alternatives without sounding like a judgmental jerk. This also lets you preserve your opinion while allowing for others to exist.
TL;DR if everyone needs to game and let game, then EVERYONE needs to agree to doing so, not just folks on one side of an argument or another.
And don't let someone else's play preferences get you down--especially since realistically, they are unlikely to ever affect your own games.
Sure, you can tone down 'excel' to mean 'better than an average schmuck on the street.' But that's not what most people mean by the term. By excel, I mean be one of the best at-- as literary heroes are. Heros are not slightly better than the average farmer. They excel. And that's the whole point of heroic fantasy, to be a hero (There are other ways to play, naturally, but the game is pitched as heroic fantasy). But if my fighter is slightly above average intelligence, charming, and has a modicum of common sense, he is automatically worse at combat than that dumb, ugly, reckless brute. There's not a large ability range at the low end. Going from a 18 to 14 str is a substantial difference, and definitely not what people mean by ' to excel.'The game does not "force you to dump stats to excel at your chosen field" at all.
The game allows you to play a wide range of character concepts. The idea that the only way to "excel" in one area is to suck in another area is a pure myth foisted by those who believe that "excel" can only mean "do the absolute best out of all possible options."
That's not what "excel" means. But it does seem to be what many power gamers THINK it means.
Statisitics alone push your average dnd character out of the realms of the ordinary
10 points: A low fantasy human character who has not dumped a stat is capable of being statistically significantly above average in two attributes(with one being at the lower part of that range and the other being at the higher point ) and average in the others. Only about 18.65% of the population are his equal or superior. In I.Q. terms we are talking about being in the 115(lower) to 130(higher) bracket.
Not exceptional, but certainly note worth.
15 points: Standard fantasy can achieve this same level in three attributes with one of those being at the higher end of the bracket.
Alternately, one attribute at the lower end of the high bracket and one in the very high bracket. The very high bracket makes up about 2.65% of the population.
It is possible to argue that you are talking about professional athletes, specialist medical doctors, special forces military personel and so on.
20 points: four attributes in the high bracket, with one of those being at the higher end of the bracket. two high, and one very high. We are talking the very best of the best here.
25 points: straight up super human
Even ten point characters, can barely help but excel at specific areas of activity when compared to a commoner, once their class has been added.
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Like I said, I did'nt wanted too start a war, only to explain my view. Let's not make it personnal.
What you need to understand is, no one plays the same game.
Many people play very similar games, and we all use a common language. But each table is a different experience because each GM runs a little differently. And even among the same table, players are using the same overall conventions to play very different games. Some people play for the story, others for the combat, others for the social time with friends.
There are as many different games as there are players. Don't let the label on the book fool you.
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Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.
Someone should start a thread entitled: The Importance of Flaws :)
If I'm slinging rocks at an enemy, I want the flawless pebble instead of the flawed diamond.
Sometimes you want imperfections, sometimes you really don't.
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sorry for bad english
I'm a long time d&d player (ad&d, 3rd, 3.5, 4) and recently pathfinder. Love it.
fan of the forum, i spend many hour by month on it.
But when i read the optimization forum, it_s like I dont play the same game as the rest of many player.
maybe it's because my player are all near their 30, or because we are also world of darkness player, but I have never seen one of my fellow player put three dumpstat on their fighter to be all powerfull.
Who wants to play a dumb jackass for 20 level just because he can do 100 damage per round. What a boring character.In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.
Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
In my experience, most of the optimized characters found on the advice forum would not be viable at our table. For example, nobody seem to find viable a shield and sword character without the twf feat tree. But in my expérience, full attack action is a rare occurence in battle. most of the time, monster moves, character too. I,have played a rogue for 16 level in schakled city. I have had the opportunity to use twf only a bunch of time in two years play.
In many build, attack of opportunity is a must. But it's a rule that praticly never happened in our game.
I understand that some player want to optimized their characther for combat. Tht's fine. But what I see on the optimization forum are one trick pony good for a nova round in the right circunstances.
I'm tired of reading that if you want to play a good rogue, you have to be an half orc with a falchion.On some table, it's seem the r from rpg was taken out. when all the thing i want is killing and looting, I play a video game.
Just my two cent. have fun.
Less_than_Vince: WELCOME TO THE PATHFINDER RPG GAME!
I didn't read this thread but wanted to thank you for posting your thread. It is very important to recognize the mass appeal the PATHFINDER RPG game has for players of all kinds, and we are a very diverse bunch. As a gaming community we struggle sometimes to value our differences-- I know I struggled, because I prefer "roleplaying" in my roleplaying game. LOLBut not everyone is like that. In the modern world of 2013, some players do prefer optimization, and get excited about doing damage. Are we playing the same game? The answer is YES! We are playing the same game in different ways.
Some like to play it to have powerful characters and be "bad ass" just as in many other games, many of which can be found online.
Some, like me, prefer to play a game that captures the very best of the traditions of D&D and the milieu of a quasi-medieval fantasy society as created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
That said, a lot of time has passed, and I see gamers as trending toward diversity rather than similarity. At one point in my life, I thought this was a bad thing, but I realize anyone playing the game, in whichever way they prefer is good for the game, the hobby, the industry, and really... quite a compliment to the original designers (Gary and Dave). The game they founded, was designed to encompass ALL these different ways to play...
1) Narrativist, roleplaying, deep meaning, great interesting characterization and dynamic stories
2) Gamist, rewards, prizes, power-ups, uber optimizations, treasures, etc.
3) Simulationist, maps, graph paper, 5" squares, wargaming, ship battles, armies, 1:1 melee, measuring range for spells, exact line-of-sight etc.
To the OP: Like you I also LOVE Pathfinder RPG because the rules as written are smart, sensible, crafted with care, geared toward balance, and overall good design, great inspiring artwork and accessible language for the average gamer, plus many more reasons.
If you had asked me a few years ago, "Are we playing a different game," I may have said YES, however, now I see that we are indeed still playing the same wondrous invention of Dave and Gary's; they created a game to encompass all these preferences AND even the preferences yet undiscovered by the next generation. The glue that keeps Pathfinder RPG so awesome is that they honor the past, dedicate the game to Gary and Dave and consider the types of things they considered when designing the game, yet they make the game very accessible for our generation, and new generations to come. So today, I wanted to respond by saying... maximizing/optimizing/boasting about uber-powers and damage is NOT by cup of tea, yet what I realize is that all kinds of gamers with all kinds of preferences can still play at my table when I GM. I simply need to specify:
* What are my expectations
* How we will communicate ongoing to ensure we understand what style of gameplay we are playing
* What type of game the players want to play; then decide if I (as a GM) can give each preference style a little of what they love
The style of game is like listening to music. Some prefer country, jazz, classical, reggae, hip hop, etc. Yet music itself is malleable, formable, shapeable, style-able, just like Gary and Dave's game. I love that Pathfinder has this wide appeal to all kinds of playstyles. While I wish that more gamers preferred my style so that it would be easier to find players with things I value and find in common --- it is also not that hard to find gamers who do, and I can still find some things in common with gamers that prefer other styles.
Are we playing different music than one another? Sure we are. We are all different, diverse, and have different exposure to the game. Yet, the music that plays on game night is distinctly Pathfinder RPG, a continuance of this time-honored tradition.
Pax Veritas
Everypony deserves some love.
Pony should be our new way of handling these threads when they get snippy. Just make an example character, call him/her Pony, and start chatting about him/her on the thread. ;D
Like I said, I did'nt wanted too start a war, only to explain my view. Let's not make it personnal.What you need to understand is, no one plays the same game.
Many people play very similar games, and we all use a common language. But each table is a different experience because each GM runs a little differently. And even among the same table, players are using the same overall conventions to play very different games. Some people play for the story, others for the combat, others for the social time with friends.
There are as many different games as there are players. Don't let the label on the book fool you.
Yeah, agree. I've been accused of playing a totally different game, not at all playing what someone is playing because of some house rules and rule changes that make sense to me or the group. Then they got indignant, how dare I comment on pathfinder when I am not playing their game! lol.
sorry for bad english
I'm a long time d&d player (ad&d, 3rd, 3.5, 4) and recently pathfinder. Love it.
fan of the forum, i spend many hour by month on it.
But when i read the optimization forum, it_s like I dont play the same game as the rest of many player.
maybe it's because my player are all near their 30, or because we are also world of darkness player, but I have never seen one of my fellow player put three dumpstat on their fighter to be all powerfull.
Who wants to play a dumb jackass for 20 level just because he can do 100 damage per round. What a boring character.In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.
Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
In my experience, most of the optimized characters found on the advice forum would not be viable at our table. For example, nobody seem to find viable a shield and sword character without the twf feat tree. But in my expérience, full attack action is a rare occurence in battle. most of the time, monster moves, character too. I,have played a rogue for 16 level in schakled city. I have had the opportunity to use twf only a bunch of time in two years play.
In many build, attack of opportunity is a must. But it's a rule that praticly never happened in our game.
I understand that some player want to optimized their characther for combat. Tht's fine. But what I see on the optimization forum are one trick pony good for a nova round in the right circunstances.
I'm tired of reading that if you want to play a good rogue, you have to be an half orc with a falchion.On some table, it's seem the r from rpg was taken out. when all the thing i want is killing and looting, I play a video game.
Just my two cent. have fun.
Having a 7 is not really bad. Dwarves start out with a -2 to charisma as an example so they already have an 8. The average person will have a -2 in one score if you go buy the NPC stat array, so 1/6 of the dwarven population has about a 6 for charisma. By your logic these people would have trouble functioning, but since the game does not say anything about dwarves being known for having these issues, obviously that 6 is not that bad.
So, what you're saying is, instead of just using any number of valid rules for character stat generation, you metagame incessantly to passive-aggressively attack the weakness of characters whose builds you don't approve of? And you're proud of this?sorry for bad english
In my table, if you put a 7 in one of your mental stat, it will backfire all the time. try to buy a magic item at the listed price with 7 charisma. I double dare you.Oh yeah, put your 7 in wisdom. No wonder you'r dominated each fight smartass.
Good point.
Vince why can't you just tell the player that your table does not like dumping stats? That way you don't get upset, and neither does the other player. People are not mind readers.
Pony should be our new way of handling these threads when they get snippy. Just make an example character, call him/her Pony, and start chatting about him/her on the thread. ;D
Everypony deserves some love.
Looks like somepony has good idea.
Brohoof buddy.
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Vestrial, a Pathfinder fighter with a 16 strength is, by definition in game terms, "one of the best at -- as literary heroes are" in comparison to the standard "schmucks" in the game.You are comparing your character to other characters possible in the rules system, or other characters other players are playing in other games, not your character to the vast virtual gaming world where your character actually interacts. In that world your 16 str fighter with a 12 int is not only above average intelligence, but is much stronger than the average man in the street. Plus he will get stronger as time goes on and he boosts his stats and gains magic items to make him stronger.
The idea that a character has to start at level 1 with "at least" a racially adjusted 20...
His build sucks if you are referring to the Ionic.
He can't hit anything level appropriate past level 8.
Hmmm, a CR9 Young Blue Dragon has an AC of 21. An 8th Fighter with a Str of 16 and nothing else will hit that dragon 50% on his first swing, 25% with his second. Add Feats and equipment and it shouldn't be too hard to make that 75% and 50%. I won't say he will win the fight, but he will hurt the dragon.
Vestrial, a Pathfinder fighter with a 16 strength is, by definition in game terms, "one of the best at -- as literary heroes are" in comparison to the standard "schmucks" in the game.You are comparing your character to other characters possible in the rules system, or other characters other players are playing in other games, not your character to the vast virtual gaming world where your character actually interacts. In that world your 16 str fighter with a 12 int is not only above average intelligence, but is much stronger than the average man in the street. Plus he will get stronger as time goes on and he boosts his stats and gains magic items to make him stronger.
The idea that a character has to start at level 1 with "at least" a racially adjusted 20...
His build sucks if you are referring to the Ionic.
He can't hit anything level appropriate past level 8.
A regular pillar of the community, that one.
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No, but a wisdom of 13 makes you less likely to fall for a basic scam, a charisma of 14 makes you stand out from the crowd - at least unless you use highly optimised PCs as the common ground for ability scores in your gameworld - once you start doing that, even a 20 in one of your stats barely is 'above average'.
The game math is built around the elite array which means 15,14,13,12,10,8 before racial modifiers. So there is already an assumption that everyone will have at least one negative stat modification. This also means you can survive with only a 15(17 after mods) in your primary stat. I think you could argue that stats of 17+ really aren't necessarily needed at chargen although having them certainly is nice. I think a case could be made that excessive stats can actually harm a game because the system just doesn't handle high stats well.
I would argue that this array is too low to begin with and I don't use it so I guess I play a different game. I use an array of 16,16,14,14,12,10. I don't want min-maxing and I do want my players to be more than a one trick pony that can role play as well as fight, cast spells, etc. I level the challenge of my campaign appropriately so they are challenged without constantly being concerned about a TPK. I disagree that the system doesn't handle high stats well. Look at some of the more elite monsters. And that village idiot with an INT of 4 wouldn't be able to fend for himself and would have severe retardation. He would need to be institutionalized. A score of 6-7 IMHO is more appropriate. Understand a score of a 7 isn't just a low score, it is a severe handicap to a PC and having 3 of them IMHO would make the player unviable. This is why I don't use point buys and having rolled stats just creates too much inequitity between starting characters when one person has 2 18's and another can't buy a 16! It might be fun to role play for a few levels, but you have players drop out in a heart beat too often in my experience. My array might be high but I would rather have that and keep people interested in the game.