As I understand it, once you create a kick starter you can't alter the info you begin with. So they can't change anything on the right side where they listed what each level gets you. They can obviously add stuff in the other areas which is what they are doing. I agree it's confusing, but it's not solely their fault for it being so.
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If I had to wager a guess at the beginning of the KS, I would have said we'd be well past $1M and be talking about $2 or $3M stretch goals right now. This project is so important to MMORPG's, and with how popular they are, I'd think this project would receive tremendous backing. I'm baffled that we're only at $650K.
I think the KS is also suffering from some inconvenient timing. December/January are months were most people are focused on holiday shopping and paying off the bills that follow. The holidays sap a certain amount of disposable cash out of people pockets.
And don't forget that US workers just say their paychecks docked by 2%. That realization has just started to hit home last week and this week. Some people might be re-evaluating their pledges, or ability to pledge, because of it.
Lastly, there's the "didn't I just fund a KS for PFO?" factor, which I don't feel can be ignored.
-Skeld
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think it will be close, and i mean really, last few minutes close.
I said it when this started; "This is just not the right time to be doing a PFO kickstarter."
While those of us that backed the techdemo, live here on the forums, or are somewhat crazy nutz over PFO; we are the minority. I still feel that GW made a big mistake with this KS. I dont feel that it is such a massive mistake that they can not come back from it though. There is a list of reasons we are not doing as well as we had hoped:
1) Holidays, really, what was so urgent that they could not have delayed a few more months and posted their intentions on their website/ here in the forums. This would have let the major fans prepare a little and let new/ old fans breath a little after the holiday overspending.
2) Way to close to the last KS. It is still too fresh in peoples minds and most dont actually read the boards/ blogs. I have heard several times that GW should just take the "first 300k" and back this one to make it a success as if that money was not already mostly spent as part of start-up costs.
3) No actual game images, videos, or mechanics. Lots of people look at the techdemo and think it is actual in-game footage. New potential players and non-hardcore followers need the images to feel better about what they might invest in, especially in the MMO realm.
4) GW's home page is not really set up to inform most new potential players. They would have to swim through the wall of text that is a bi-weekly 1 year+ blog, then spent many more hours here on the forums reading more threads to finally have a good idea of what the game is about. It may sound mean but if you want to target the masses you seem to need the hook to be short, sexy, and to the point as to why they should give you their money (even if its not really true).
5) A rough start with the KS page. The layout of information is kind of rough and the description of the rewards are a little lacking. I know we receive better information here, but not all of the backers nor potential backers come here.
6) The $1 million goal. That is a pretty high target to reach for when a lot of people seem to back KS's for the stretch goals after they have already "been funded". Something about success breading more success.
I would personally would like to see them close this down, wait about 8-10 months, and restart the KS later. This would be after then nailed down the engine (plus all of the side software) and basic game play systems, in addition to redrafting their webpage, adding in-game alpha'ish footage and have solid reward descriptions. Basically presenting a better, more streamlined KS shortly before their alpha would kick-off.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that may be the case, though the lack detailed information has cost them a few thousand dollars just within our guild. The day they posted about the Unity engine with no real detail beyond "we're using it" resulted in 3 members dropping their alpha pledges. That might only be a small amount of money when the goal is $1 million, but it is also only a handful of people with my social circle. I have a gut feeling tells me that they are not alone in their reprehension. I am still backing at a high level, however, i would be lying if i said i was comfortable with their choice based on our current level of information.
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1) Holidays...
2) Way to close to the last KS.
I have a feeling that the timing of the 2nd KS was dictated by the needs of their design cycle. A $1M influx now might be much more beneficial than the same influx of money in 6 months.
I still feel that GW made a big mistake with this KS.
I agree. Given how wildly successful the first KS was and the timing, size, and scope of the second KS, it gives the impression that someone got dollar signs in their eyes and envisioned a fanatical fanbase throwing wads of cash at them: "Some extra money would be nice, let's hit the Kickstarter well again!"
Granted, I don't think that's what actually happened, I do think that's an easy conclusion that can be drawn by someone that doesn't follow this thing closely.
-Skeld
@Void Ronin - I'd add:
7) A deeply PvP game is not the MMO that a lot of Pathfinder players want. Many PFers don't want to give money for something we aren't excited about and/or don't plan on playing, even with various PF goodies like the Emerald Spire .pdf dangled in front of us.
I resisted, pledged, then withdrew this week. I did take my pledge amount, up it and sponsor a third-party PF kickstarter; so, I'll spend the money on PF for something I want. But PFO isn't it.
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@Void Ronin - I'd add:
7) A deeply PvP game is not the MMO that a lot of Pathfinder players want. Many PFers don't want to give money for something we aren't excited about and/or don't plan on playing, even with various PF goodies like the Emerald Spire .pdf dangled in front of us.
I resisted, pledged, then withdrew this week. I did take my pledge amount, up it and sponsor a third-party PF kickstarter; so, I'll spend the money on PF for something I want. But PFO isn't it.
So your not backing the KS, and your not backing PFO, nor are you interested in PFO (anymore) right?
Goblin Squad Member
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As said headcount = 9-11 atm
To boost to 20 + KS fullfilment cost/cuts - NOW
Is reason for the KS. It adds up. Also a function of how much investment was achieved by end of a tech demo presentation. The shorter the realistic dev to revenue time the better.
=
Let's just see this 1m$ target hit. Expecting more Unity info in blog today fingers-x.
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The risk of no money and the stigma of failure though would seem to warrant more caution. At least that is how i see things.
If the second KS fails, it could be seen as a rebuke by the Pathfinder/PFO/MMO community. More likely, it'll be seen as a sign that support for the project is softer than first thought.
What was the first KS? A demo about a game Paizo/GW wants to make.
What's the second KS? Speeding up the development schedule of the actual game.
What does it say if the second KS fails while the first was wildly successful?
-Skeld
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I understand the folks that do not like PvP. I am one of them. But i am willing to give the game a shot and my money in the hopes that their version of PvP will live up to their intentions. Almost everyone i know that doesn't like PvP, including me, is a result of some very poor design implementations in past MMO's. At some point the worlds of PvP and PvE will meld and become one complex system. I am simply hoping that PFO finds that harmony first. Backing a little to see if the results are what everyone hopes they will be seems to have marginal risk. After the first few free (minus the buy-in) months i will know if it is the game i hoped for or not. When you add in the PFRPG goodies the buy-in more than pays for itself. Reducing the risk to really zero, unless you count time spent playing and there really is no way to minimize that particular investment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Skeld - I expect this KS is currently on track for at least 800k and to pass 1m$ presently. Comparing 800-1m to 300$ just shows possibilities with many variable factors eg time of year, cross-promotion interet with Palio PnP to mmo, mmo early high interest - all useful feedback for GW either way. As Ryan said it's crowd-surfing roller coaster. Godus was going crazy by d-day - 4 days or so!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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3) No actual game images, videos, or mechanics. Lots of people look at the techdemo and think it is actual in-game footage. New potential players and non-hardcore followers need the images to feel better about what they might invest in, especially in the MMO realm.
Actually this is very bad, it is unlike Elite that just had concept art. PFO had Tech Demo, and small built area from which they could easy take some screenshots for this KS. Sadly GW missed this great opportunity.
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So your not backing the KS, and your not backing PFO, nor are you interested in PFO (anymore) right?
Right. Even though I don't like PvP, there were a couple reasons I was willing to support the KS. But I'm no longer backing it nor do I plan on playing it. I was holding on because I figure the Emerald Spire .pdf was almost worth $30 and I am a Paizo fan.
But as the game continued to appeal less to me, the free month became of diminishing value until I didn't want to play PFO. So I put the money towards Razor Coast instead.
For me, Noncencensual PvP is akin to unwanted sexual advances. Variations of "This will be different, give it a chance" aren't valid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I consider UO to be the first PvP MMO, I loved it very much. Yes, it had huge PvP issues, which the developers never thought would happen. Eve, from what I read is also a PvP environment, but with improved anti-griever methods. The developer of Eve, have learnt where they made some mistakes, with other developers, and the community (I think a first for a MMO to take part in the development process before really actual code is written), are coming up with solutions and identifying possible flaws before the ideas are implemented. In UO I learnt how to enjoy the game, and got skillfull at avoiding the grievers (learning who they are via the grapevine).
I believe PFO will create a much more enjoyable playing experience than that of UO, with a richer set of features. I definitely will give PFO a shot, and probably stay for years, if they manage to create a self sustaining economy and politics, backed by intelligent PvE and NPC system. Of course depends if they have a Linux client for me and friends.
Oh, I will always continue to play PF play-by-post adventures, on the Paizo forum site. There probably never be a MMO that can capture the creative variations that is found in TT PF games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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3) No actual game images, videos, or mechanics. Lots of people look at the techdemo and think it is actual in-game footage. New potential players and non-hardcore followers need the images to feel better about what they might invest in, especially in the MMO realm.Actually this is very bad, it is unlike Elite that just had concept art. PFO had Tech Demo, and small built area from which they could easy take some screenshots for this KS. Sadly GW missed this great opportunity.
The TechDemo was fine so long as you realise it's a tech demo and it was done in a few months and what it was designed to achieve.
It showed some buildings damaged, lighting and animations and camera flying - but then so does so many other mmorpgs. It at least was "something" tangible however, so imo on that side it was useful. but more context of "if we can do this in a few months", then "we can do THIS in a few years of iterating" etc.
Maybe a bit more of the design sketched into flow diagrams? Or perhaps that's too dry for people (I love that stuff!)? ;)
Also envisioning The River Kingdoms and the details of Hexes as well as the intended tech design to make them realised for 00-000's of players?!
Etc.
Tbh, atm, more curious what GW have in store for the final stretch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I consider UO to be the first PvP MMO, I loved it very much.Well considering it was the first MMO (not talking about MUD's but real MMO) then yes it was also the first PvP one too.
MUDs are MMOs. I'm not sure why you think a MUD isn't a "real MMO."
Graphics are not what define an MMO, it's all about how the game is meant to be played.
I've played MUDs that were PvP based, PvE based, party based, solo based, kingdom based, guild based, and/or story based, in worlds from anime to fantasy to science fiction to modern, with some having as few as 10 players and others having hundreds. MUDs are just as much of the essence of what a MMO is as EVE or WoW or UO or anything else is.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I find it odd that people would withdraw their pledges because Goblinworks decided on Unity. I follow a lot of the most current engines and I'm just curious. Why did Unity make your guildmates withdraw their pledges?
One is a Unity programmer, he stated that until GW puts out more information on how they plan to use it and fix "scaling" issues, he would not be paying upfront. He talked about some other things as well; net code, UI, lack of other MMO's using the engine, ect. Enough that i can understand where he is coming from if not the exact reasons since i am not a programmer.
The others backed out due again to the lack of any AAA MMO using Unity and no real information from GW. Almost all of the information on the net shows it is primarily a mobile/ browser based engine, at least that is what it is mostly being used for. I know Unity states that it can support MMO's and there are a few MMO like games that use it. But with little information from GW and no other games to use as a reference point (and other major sandbox games using things like CryEngine 3) they saw the engine announcement as a major let down. I know they may try the game out when it goes live and will follow it, but they will not back it without more information. With 5 days left I think it is unlikely that GW will put enough information out to convince them since again there are no screen shots, actual mechanics, or live video of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@DarkOne the Drow - There's invariably with KS a large number of people who pledge later. We'll see if this KS follows that pattern. It's roller-coaster, so sit back and enjoy the ride, until the end! ;)
I'd expect an extensive update on Unity today packed with info and insight... /ball in GW's court.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know kickstarter has only been big for a short period of time, but I wonder if there is research on time of the year being a factor. I mean for those of us with families and property Dec/Jan is a killer. Not only do you get hit with holiday expenses but you also have to pay property taxes. At least for me, money is tighter at this time of year than any other time. It is a lot easier to part with money over the summer. I hope this one pulls through as I would love that mega dungeon.
Also, I think people wait till the end to pitch in extra money for things like print versions of the maps or the dungeon in this case. It seems like that was the case with Bones. A lot of people added to their pledges at the end to be able to pick more products. If there isn't a lot of momentum, I am not sure that people do that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I got the crowdforger buddy pack for myself and a friend and recently tacked on $190 to add 21 months of subscription time for a grand total of over two years! I think anyone who anticipates being serious about this game are shooting themselves in the foot by not getting at least the 12 months for $100 if they have the $ to spare.
If I had to wager a guess at the beginning of the KS, I would have said we'd be well past $1M and be talking about $2 or $3M stretch goals right now. This project is so important to MMORPG's, and with how popular they are, I'd think this project would receive tremendous backing. I'm baffled that we're only at $650K.I think the KS is also suffering from some inconvenient timing. December/January are months were most people are focused on holiday shopping and paying off the bills that follow. The holidays sap a certain amount of disposable cash out of people pockets.
And don't forget that US workers just say their paychecks docked by 2%. That realization has just started to hit home last week and this week. Some people might be re-evaluating their pledges, or ability to pledge, because of it.
Lastly, there's the "didn't I just fund a KS for PFO?" factor, which I don't feel can be ignored.
-Skeld
Not to mention right now is the mad dash of transferring over from fall semester to holidays to spring semester of college.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find it odd that people would withdraw their pledges because Goblinworks decided on Unity. I follow a lot of the most current engines and I'm just curious. Why did Unity make your guildmates withdraw their pledges?
My guess is that it isn't unity that is the real issue.
Some people are just like political party loyalists. It doesn't matter what someone wants to get done, it only matters that they are the wrong people to do it so nothing, whatsoever, can be permitted to be done without making mountains of molehills. No matter what, and whether their denial can be made to look like they are reasonable or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After watching Kingdom Death - Monster rake in 2 million (.5 mill on the last day alone) for a board game I don't think "It was the holidays" is a valid excuse anymore. The timing is not a deciding issue. You either want the product and what it offers really bad, or you don't.
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Not to mention right now is the mad dash of transferring over from fall semester to holidays to spring semester of college.
I was thinking about that on my lunch break. To bolster that idea, the first KS took place while college students were on summer break, a time when they might have a little more spending cash. Of course, it never seemed that way when I was in school. ;)
-Skeld
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After watching Kingdom Death - Monster rake in 2 million (.5 mill on the last day alone) for a board game I don't think "It was the holidays" is a valid excuse anymore. The timing is not a deciding issue. You either want the product and what it offers really bad, or you don't.
Now that is interesting. They had about the same number of backers as PFO currently has, but the average backer on that KS ponied up nearly $400, which is about 3x what the average backer of the current PFO KS is in for. Too bad I can't access kicktraq from work. Any insight into whether they piled on new backers at the end or if existing backers upped their pledges?
-Skeld
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Goblin Squad Member
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They did get a lot of backers at the end but most of it was upping pledges. See, the base game was $100 and from the FIRST video he hinted at expansion miniatures. The whole point of the game is to fight gruesome monsters and he had over thirty something stretch goals (about every 50k) and bonuses that added more and more to the game. So as the game "grew" people upped their pledges to get more cool monsters and figures.
The extras got so crazy someone made this pledge calculator. You can see all the crazy add-on's there.
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Their original goal of $35k was also very modest. How quickly did they fund?
They did get a lot of backers at the end but most of it was upping pledges.
Right. People love jumping on a funded project. It's a sure thing.
So as the game "grew" people upped their pledges to get more cool monsters and figures for the base game.
That's what concerns me about the current PFO KS... they started so high that there really isn't anywhere for it to go. It's hard to think about stretch goals when you're struggling to get funded period.
This is an awesome story, but I don't think it's comparable.
-Skeld
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Goblin Squad Member
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12 hours tops.
I think it's completely comparable in regards to my point. The silly ass excuse of "timing". If people are claiming that now is a time when people "lack money" I point to KD - M and say, "bull s~@*". People had LOTS of money to throw on it. Slightly less backers than PFO and yet triple the average pledge per person. The money IS OUT THERE.
Also Pathfinder Online is a sure thing. It's only a "when?". I think that lack of urgency also doesn't help it.
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Slightly less backers than PFO and yet triple the average pledge per person.
So why isn't PFO getting comparable money?
Also Pathfinder Online IS a sure thing. It's only a "when?".
No doubt. I don't think anyone was arguing that it isn't coming (barring some unforeseen circumstance).
I think that lack of urgency also doesn't help it.
Very possible. Or maybe a lack of excitement in the general RPG/PF/MMO community?
-Skeld
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find it odd that people would withdraw their pledges because Goblinworks decided on Unity. I follow a lot of the most current engines and I'm just curious. Why did Unity make your guildmates withdraw their pledges?One is a Unity programmer, he stated that until GW puts out more information on how they plan to use it and fix "scaling" issues, he would not be paying upfront. He talked about some other things as well; net code, UI, lack of other MMO's using the engine, ect. Enough that i can understand where he is coming from if not the exact reasons since i am not a programmer.
The others backed out due again to the lack of any AAA MMO using Unity and no real information from GW. Almost all of the information on the net shows it is primarily a mobile/ browser based engine, at least that is what it is mostly being used for. I know Unity states that it can support MMO's and there are a few MMO like games that use it. But with little information from GW and no other games to use as a reference point (and other major sandbox games using things like CryEngine 3) they saw the engine announcement as a major let down. I know they may try the game out when it goes live and will follow it, but they will not back it without more information. With 5 days left I think it is unlikely that GW will put enough information out to convince them since again there are no screen shots, actual mechanics, or live video of the game.
Maybe this: "BigWorld had strong server-side capabilities, but we knew we'd want to hire and dedicate a team of engineers to working on the graphics engine if we were to use them. With Unity, those needs were reversed; the graphics engine is fantastic, but we will need to have a team of engineers working on server-side tools. That actually plays to our team's strengths: Goblinworks CTO Mark Kalmes developed the server-side technology that Cryptic uses for its games, so this is a problem domain he understands at least as well as anyone in the industry."
and other notes in today's blog will help address your guildmates' concerns!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it's completely comparable in regards to my point. The silly ass excuse of "timing". If people are claiming that now is a time when people "lack money" I point to KD - M and say, "bull s@+%". People had LOTS of money to throw on it. Slightly less backers than PFO and yet triple the average pledge per person. The money IS OUT THERE.Also Pathfinder Online is a sure thing. It's only a "when?". I think that lack of urgency also doesn't help it.
Elite Dangerous also had only the sligtest dent in the line around the 26th
as someone who hates the drama going on now and is only in it for the P&P loot. I should have hit "remind me" and come back when the bell rings.
I don't like way the KS is managed in terms of a high goal and revealing the minis as if we are on stretch goals already; at least the've done away with that for the Emerald Spire
but I sure DO respect the reason behind the high goal:
The honesty of the management that only 1M$ will bring a definable speed up of the developement plan. Instead of some wishy-washy "give us your money and we'll see what can be done"
After all, the point of the KS in not to hand out loot but to speed up the project.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Any chance we could possibly get a proposed budget for the KS funds ala you update on the Tech demo A Busy Week for Goblinworks and break it out for $1Mill, $2Mill, $3Mill?
From my promoting I've heard a lot of push back on the high goal and not knowing where the money is actually going. I understand the whole $1Mill provides a measurable decrease in release time and that's enough for me but there are a number of people that I think might benefit from seeing a more detailed breakdown of the numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It'll be staff salaries now I think: headcount from '11->20'. There are 15 job listings, but I think the KS can fund between 6-12 range of new staff depending on average salary at a guess (not sure if all those openings are needed/merged either).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mmmm... PVE Game designer... me want.
Except I'm old, smelly, and irascable, about to retire from a career with Uncle and realllly don't want to lose my retirement...
Other hand...creative, original,strong work ethic...
But... moving across the country again?
Bird in the hand... sure is a pretty bird in that bush...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if the KS fails they will take that as a sign to rethink some design decisions. (I'm not suggesting they should)
Right now PfO looks like an open pvp game with severe penalties for actually engaging in open pvp.
PvEers won't like it and neither will PvPers. So the target audience is rather small.
I realize the game is much more indepth than that but most people aren't going to bother researching the details.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I've been picking up out in the wilds is that there is a large number of people hoping it works out and GW can do what they say they intend, but not putting dollars on it. There is a somewhat smaller group defensive about their themeparks. Another set is actively seeking things to gripe about, mostly having to do with money.
Then there's us, and the few who are trickling in at about a thousand dollars in donations per hour.
At the current rate, if everything held perfectly steady, we'll miss the mark by about $200K.
If things pick up the way Ryan says it will we will about reach our target.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I wonder if the KS fails they will take that as a sign to rethink some design decisions. (I'm not suggesting they should)
Right now PfO looks like an open pvp game with severe penalties for actually engaging in open pvp.
PvEers won't like it and neither will PvPers. So the target audience is rather small.
I realize the game is much more indepth than that but most people aren't going to bother researching the details.
Maybe rethink how information is presented. I realize they've been fairly pressed moving over to Unity, but it's become clearer I this Kickstarter that they need to seriouslly take the time and build a better "welcome to PfO" page. If this doesn't go through that's a serious must before they try again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In order to try and cheer you people up, I dug this line from the Kickstarter's FAQ:
"Of the projects that have reached 60% of their funding goal, 98% were successfully funded."
Two percent is only like... *counts with fingers, loaning a hand here, another from there* one out of fifty! We have the odds :)