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this is a thread about grappling special maneuver and what value does it actually provide.
take this scenario of a fight that looks at a creature with 3 natural attacks and the grab special ability.
with a full attack option, the creature begins the attacks adjacent to a PC.
1st attack hits, and is successful on starting the grapple.
2nd, and 3rd attack are now at -2 to hit due to grapple condition, and if the creature uses finesse, the attacks are at an additional -2 due to the dex loss for the grapple condition.
the subsequent grapple checks are not affected by the initial -2, due to grapple checks being unaffected, but the CMD for the PC to break free is 2 less, again due to the -4 to dex from the grapple condition.
there is the idea that a creature could take -20 to grapple without gaining the grapple condition, but that isnt really realistic against a standard PC.
next round
the monster has to spend a standard action to maintain the grapple or the PC is free, which then takes away any full attack option this monster would have, or the option for it to chose to attack anyone else, since it spent a standard action maintaining.
the creature also now has to decide if it wants to move or do damage.
as the grapple condition prevents normal movement. most likely the rest of the party has now moved to surround it, as the monster doesnt threaten any squares, they easily gain flanking bonuses.
which now provides the rest of the party a potential +4 to hit the monster due to dex loss and flanking.
if the creature decides to move, it can only move half its movement, and if it wishes to prevent AOO, it will need to tumble, again reducing movement by half.
if it tries to jump as part of its movement, is hasnt gained the running start, so all DCs for a jump distance are doubled.
also, keep in mind, that now the creature has to account for the additional weight of the PC, so an encumberance check would then need to be taken into an account, which could also reduce the jump check accordingly.
if the creature decides to pin the PC, it has to spend a standard action (which is part of the maintain grapple function) to move the grapple to a pin, but then it now loses its dex to AC for the surrounding PCs, and is still unable to move away.
if the creature gained the grapple through a bite, and also had a manufactured weapon, it would lose the ability to fight with a two handed weapon, due to the grapple condition's restriction of no 2handed actions.
so, i guess, my question is this:
what is the point?
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Grab is not meant to be the end-all ability. It is just as circumstantial (perhaps moreso) as any other special maneuver. Most creatures that have it only fight with natural weapons and most have it to aid them in catching prey to eat, not necessarily as a bonus attack tactic as we would define it with regards to player-characters. It is also likely that the creature with grab is a non/low-intelligent creature that fights instinctively rather than tactically. They are not using it to foil your ranged fighter or disrupt a caster, but to keep their dinner from running away. Intelligent creatures will not use grab if it will leave them vulnerable to counterattack. Grab is especially useful for creatures with incidental damage (constrict, swallow whole, acidic excretions, spiked exterior, etc) that manifests under grappled conditions. Otherwise, you're right, grab is a seriously under-powered quality.
Otherwise, you're right, grab is a seriously under-powered quality.
With a free grab attack, greater grapple, and rapid grapple, you can deal damage, grab them, pin them and tie them up all in the same round. If you can make 4 successful rolls...
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2nd, and 3rd attack are now at -2 to hit due to grapple condition, and if the creature uses finesse, the attacks are at an additional -2 due to the dex loss for the grapple condition.
Bruon point out that -2 to hit is offset as target suffer -4 Dex from the Grappled condition (i.e. -2 AC). But, Dysfunction correct that finesse-based attacker feels penalty harder.
Bob Jonquet-Duquesnoy is correct when he state that PCs will use Grapple more intelligenter than stupid monsters.
With a free grab attack, greater grapple, and rapid grapple, you can deal damage, grab them, pin them and tie them up all in the same round. If you can make 4 successful rolls...
You only need 3 rolls--melee attack (to incite the grab), the grab (to grapple), greater grapple (to progress to a pin)--the rapid grappler to tie up no need a roll.
No factor in STR, BAB or item bonuses:
The initial grab is at +8 (Grab, Improved & Greater Grapple)
The pin attempt is +13 (previous + controlling) (note is against a lowered CMD due to -4 Dex Grapple penalty, so more like +15)
A straight +8 or +13 put you on a solid foundation for 2 of 3 rolls. Once you add in STR/BAB/items, odds are anything short of a well-built martial character or large monster is locked down.
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Grab+ secondary effects like constrict opens up some crazy powerful combos on some monsters that are intelligent.
For example: Mi-Go:
4 Claws, each with Grab. On each successful grapple attempt, gets +2d6 sneak attack.
1st hit: Grab, sneak attack. let go.
2nd hit: Grab, sneak attack. let go.
Repeat two more times, only keep hold after the 4th.
I have also worked out how to do a similar trick with a Druid - but won't post that here for fear of someone actually building it.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Plus, a creature with reach can move its grappled foe to any adjacent square (assuming the foe didn't start out adjacent, already). So, reach behind those front line fighters, grab the pesky bard, put him behind you and start going to town on him.
I remember one particular fight with clockwork golems where I was able to pull that off against a rogue, using David Metcalfe's tactic. The only target one of the golems could reach was the rogue who was maneuvering for a sneak attack against the other golem. Hit, grab, grind, drop him in the room behind the golem, cutting him off from the rest of the party. Hit, grab, grind, then hold on and watch the rogue squirm. One round later there was no more rogue. That player isn't quite as cocky as he used to be.
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When monsters use grab, as mentioned, they're usually dumb animals looking for a meal. They grab first, then their best strategy is to run away with their meal before someone takes it from them - and that's exactly what most dumb animals would do.
Grapple in general is better when used by groups who coordinate their efforts. I have a friend with a PC who specializes in grappling. She would grapple, pin, and tie up foes while the rest of us pounded on them until they stopped fighting back. This neutralized a lot of otherwise very dangerous enemies, especially spellcasters. This was actually how our group survived the infamous Dalsine Affair with no casualties.
With a free grab attack, greater grapple, and rapid grapple, you can deal damage, grab them, pin them and tie them up all in the same round. If you can make 4 successful rolls...You only need 3 rolls--melee attack (to incite the grab), the grab (to grapple), greater grapple (to progress to a pin)--the rapid grappler to tie up no need a roll.
Can you site your source?
Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions: (damage, move, pin, tie up)
Rapid grapple grants you another "check" as a swift action. How is that not another CMB roll?
Standard: Bite attack roll (and Damage)
Free Action: Grab CMB Check - Target gains grappled condition (not the feral gnasher though! yay!)
Move Action: Greater Grapple CMB Check - Target gains pinned condition, loses grappled condition
Swift Action: Rapid Grapple CMB Check - Target can be bound if rope/chains are already drawn
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there are several intelligent creatures in the beastiary that have grab or grapple as their primary tactics.
even modules.
specifically, song of the sea witch - end boss guy
Na-Kraka CR 8
Male cecaelia witch 5 (Advanced Player’s Guide 65, Pathfinder
RPG Bestiary 3 49)
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
During Combat Na-Kraka attempts to grapple
the first visible opponent with its tentacles
before rushing out the 100' room into the flooded
antechamber. While still grappling his
opponent, the Sea Witch moves into
the water where he attempts to
drown grappled opponents. If
an enemy breaks a grapple,
the Sea Witch lets out an
ink cloud and proceeds
to use spells to wear
down opponents before
striking with melee attacks.
so, im trying to understand what the game developers either invisioned with this ability or what they might be seeing that i am missing that makes grab/grapple a viable combat sollution.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Yeah, that one is pretty poorly done. It got discussed to death in the thread for the scenario, and the consensus was to ignore it. In order to make it effective (as called for in the tactics) you'd have to cheat, and seeing as that wasn't an option, just following different (more intelligent) tactics was the better call.
That was likely a case where the developer simply overlooked the creature's land speed. Underwater that would be an excellent tactic. Not so much in the environment you meet that thing in. Or, the encounter was originally written to take place in a half submerged room, and the developer removed that aspect due to how deadly it would be (pissing off a lot of PFS players is never good), but forgot to change the tactics accordingly.
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Rapid grapple grants you another "check" as a swift action. How is that not another CMB roll?
Hmmm. Bruno re-look at rules closely. It look like the flowchart Bruno use for reference from d20PFSRD is incorrect--tie up branch make no statement to roll CMB v CMD. Bruno will now correct copy he carry for his table reference.
However, something you say open new can of worms.
Standard: Bite attack roll (and Damage)
Free Action: Grab CMB Check - Target gains grappled condition (not the feral gnasher though! yay!)
Move Action: Greater Grapple CMB Check - Target gains pinned condition, loses grappled condition
Swift Action: Rapid Grapple CMB Check - Target can be bound if rope/chains are already drawn
If rope/chains already drawn, then you grapple at -4 penalty for entire round ("Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll").
If rope/chains not in hand, it is move-equivalent action to pull them out--which means you can no Grapple/Pin/Tie Up in a single round ever. (RAW Quick Draw feat no help as it is only valid for weapons.) Also, pulling rope out provoke AOO from all surrounding foes (but not grappled/pinned enemy).
Bruno re-iterate that because it pretty important fact:
If the rope, chain or manacle is not in hand already, then you cannot go from initiating a grapple to pinning a single round. This make Bruno sad.
Bruno always let GM know that he wear different lengths of ropes loosely about body and they have handwaved move-equivalent retrieval of ropes for expediency's sake.
If Paizo ever get chance, Bruno hope they could find a way to fold a free action for drawing rope into tying up foe into the Rapid Grappler feat.
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You don't need rope to pin, only to tie someone up. Pinning just means you take someone you're already grabbing and pin them prone on the floor, like in wrestling. No ropes required. And if you're doing that in a fight to a BBEG, chances are pretty good one of your allies will be able to grab the rope for you.
Did I miss something? Why not pin them and then pull out the rope? Last I checked maintaining a grapple is a standard action, pulling something out is a move action.
Do you even need to maintain a pin once it is made?
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To clarify, Bruno specifically saying character cannot Initiate A Grapple > Pin > Tie Up in a single round without rope, chains or manacles already in hand as there are not enough actions to allow it.
Many posts about high level Grapplers (usually tetori monks) often assume that you can, but by RAW, it is not possible unless you take a -4 penalty for the entire round by already having bonds in hand.
Now, for grapplers with Greater Grapple but without rapid Grappler, with bonds in hand you can also tie up foe in a single round--but with big penalties:
Standard: Grapple CMB Check with -4 CMB due only having one hand free
Move Action: Greater Grapple CMB Check - Skip pin, attempt Tie Up straight from Grapple with -10 penalty to CMB (If you have Equipment Trick: Rope (Hogtie) feat, the -10 to tie up from a grapple becomes a -5.)
So, if you have a rope in hand, your Greater Grapple move action to tie up will be at a -9 to CMB (-4 for one hand, -10 for tying up from grapple, +5 for controlling grapple). That is ameliorated to -4 if you have the Equipment Trick feat.
Obviously, those with Rapid Grappler happier as they can initiate grapple > pin > tie and not worry about -10 penalty for skipping the pin.
I think the humanoid reference is because it's assumed you're using your hands to help initiate the grapple. What about the feral gnasher? They use their natural weapon to initiate the grapple via grab. Could a feral gnasher avoid the -4 penalty?
New question, could a feral gnasher who also has improvised weapon mastery draw manacles or chain via quickdraw as just about anything in their hands is a weapon?
Better option with less variance: Feral gnasher starts turn holding chain/manacles, follows the layout above, but drops chains before bite, and before tie up, uses free action via impromptu armament to pick them back up.
Standard: Grapple CMB Check with -4 CMB due only having one hand free
You could use the rope in one hand and a Dan bong in the other.
Benefit: They provide the wielder with the ability to lock an opponent and target pressure points that grant her a +2 bonus on her combat maneuver to grapple.
The rules for them are a bit unclear because as written using them instead of having both hands free would be worse because you get -4 for having them in hand and +2 for their special ability. We usually rule that they do nor give you the-4, because they are meant to help with grappling, not make it harder. But if you already get the -4 for having a rope in one hand even RAW you at least partially offset this by getting the +2.
So let's say my Enlarged Fighter innitiates a grapple with an enemy that is at my extended reach of 10ft AND is currently being threatened by other party members. WHEN (not if lol) my grapple succeeds and I place the creature in a space adjacent to me, does that count as that creature leaving a threatened square provoking AoO's from any other party members that threatened the square the enemy left? If so at what (if any) penalties?
It's not specifically stated one way or the other, but I'd say it doesn't provoke, since forced movement from other combat maneuvers (bull rush, drag, reposition) doesn't.
Grapple will always be a poor choice for the monster if it's outnumbered.