Vanish is missing in your poll.The poll is core only.
You are right!
The lack of non-core spells skewed my votes. The fact that Summon Monster 1 is beating Mount should be a clear indication of non-optimization. Even with all attacks being secondary, a horse is a far better combatant than the majority of the SM 1 list.The horse from the Mount spell is not a combatant. Nor can it be ordered to fight.
It is not combat trained, but it serves you "Willingly and well" and has 2 secondary hoof attacks. It also appears at close range.
3 more votes to reach 100, them I will start compiling the stats!
Ok that was fast! we got the 100 vote just now. I will compile the report this afternoon and post it!
Thank you everybody for all the support!
Yup, once you take a full-round action and make your DC 25 Handle Animal check.It is not combat trained, but it serves you "Willingly and well" and has 2 secondary hoof attacks. It also appears at close range.The lack of non-core spells skewed my votes. The fact that Summon Monster 1 is beating Mount should be a clear indication of non-optimization. Even with all attacks being secondary, a horse is a far better combatant than the majority of the SM 1 list.The horse from the Mount spell is not a combatant. Nor can it be ordered to fight.
There is zero evidence that you need to make a Handle Animal check to make a summoned creature do what you want. Do you need to make a Handle Animal check to make a summoned wolverine do what you want? Do you have to make a Diplomacy check to get a summoned Vrock to do what you want?
I think that you're adding obstacles to the spell because you don't want it to be so obviously better than Summon Monster I.
On the following link you will find the TOP 5 spells (with ties) on each level based on the first 109 votes from the poll. Feel free to politely share your conclusions or opinions about the results!
Does every player have to play "optimized"? Seriously?
I like to have my spell lists reflect the personality of my caster and enhance the roleplaying aspect.
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for those of you who don't like magic missile i would like to draw your attention the the Tattooed sorcerer build with spell focus evocation and Spell specialization. and the trait that gives you +1 Caster level for one spell. at 1st level your caster level 5 for magic missile
with the Orc bloodline. you doing 3d4+6 and you get to do that about 4 or 5 times a day. that is OP enough to decimate any PFS adventure.
it unerringly hits unless they have a Shield spell active.. prep you other spell as Burning hands (2d4+2) and your a pretty good blaster.
Why stop at 100 votes!
People can still vote.The 100 votes was just a milestone to create a summary of the most voted spells. If people keep voting I will create a new summary as soon as we have enough votes to make it relevant.
Does every player have to play "optimized"? Seriously?
I like to have my spell lists reflect the personality of my caster and enhance the roleplaying aspect.
There's absolutely no reason you can't both enhance your roleplaying and optimize.
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While initially enthusiastic about this list, the fact that magic missile and color spray are neck in neck tells me that the anonymous masses of the board cannot optimize (I know this thread is asking for 'favorite' spells, but I understand that as 'best' due to the thread this one was born in).Yes I expect people to select the BESTS (favorite) spells "on their opinion". However one (or the many) opinion might not be right and that is also something that can be extracted from this poll.
It might help some people to realize that they are overlooking some spells that many others use! But can also raise debates like this one that might help to better educate players against a spell that is being heavily picked without actually being that good!
TBH, magic missile is such a bad choice for a low-level wizard that I wouldn't consider the opinion of someone arguing it is a worthy choice; as in, it clearly indicates to me they don't know what they are doing.
There are first level spells you can use to wipe an encounter (of course, saves exist, but it is still a better bet than freakin' magic missile).
Or maybe they are doing a Sorcerer.
In which case Magic Missile is a nice addition to your 1st-level repertoire (after Color Spray and Grease, granted).
I believe that this thread will help many new players of casters to make a more informed choice of their spells (MOST important for any spontaneous caster).
I also believe that disparaging the majority choice on the argument that you obviously know better than most people does not hold much water.
I also believe that disparaging the majority choice on the argument that you obviously know better than most people does not hold much water.
Se, we can't even have a conversation. If you actively believe using a 1st level slot to automatically deal 1d4+1 from levels 1-2 and 1d4+1x2 at 3-4 level is a good idea, we have such different notions of what a good spell is that we will constantly talk past each other.
I'll take spells that allow circumventing or defeating entire encounters (combat and non) instead (sleep, color spray, grease, even obscuring mist, cause fear, charm person, expeditious retreat, web).
Does every player have to play "optimized"? Seriously?
I like to have my spell lists reflect the personality of my caster and enhance the roleplaying aspect.
I've never optimized a character.
BTW The 15th level Sorceror in our Kingmaker Campaign is still flinging off Magic Missiles.
Or maybe they are doing a Sorcerer.
In which case Magic Missile is a nice addition to your 1st-level repertoire (after Color Spray and Grease, granted).
really, how is that better for a sorceror? they get more slots, but just 2 spells known.
so, after color spray and grease, there is no more 1st level spells known for a sorc to pick at 1st level.this is what i noticed from the beginning, that people aren't voting based on the same premise of what their votes mean.
if you are voting for 'BEST (favorite)' spells, you can't really pick that many spells,
you should be limited to the number of different spells you can cast at that level,
unless you're saying they're all equally, or near-equally, good and it's a toss-up which ones you would prepare/know.
but you're not claiming that about magic missile... so it's not 'BEST (favorite)'.
the only way MM is good at 1st level is if you take the mentioned Orc build and dedicate all your feats and traits towards making it do big damage at that level. if that's your favorite build, then it makes sense those would be the favorite spells. otherwise...???
whether or not you think MM is an OK 1st level spell at later levels, maybe combined with metamagic, etc, is irrelevant to it being 'BEST (favorite)' at level 1, where it is displacing the very few other spells you have at that point.
There's absolutely no reason you can't both enhance your roleplaying and optimize.
Never said you couldn't. But the disdain for those here that may choose not to is both palpable and condescending. Is that the way you want to come off?
I once had a blast playing an LG Evoker of mediocre intelligence with a low wisdom to boot. He was a lot of fun to play even though his spell casting was limited (a conscious decision on my part). I played him like a an ex-high school football player who found out he had a tiny amount of talent in magic. Played him to 14th level. A lot of fun for me and the other players. Magic Missile was his bread and butter. Good times, good times.
My point, I guess, is that an intelligent player can make a conscious decision to not optimize (for roleplaying, humor, etc) and therefore doesn't need to have someone talk down to them.
There's absolutely no reason you can't both enhance your roleplaying and optimize.Never said you couldn't. But the disdain for those here that may choose not to is both palpable and condescending. Is that the way you want to come off?
I once had a blast playing an LG Evoker of mediocre intelligence with a low wisdom to boot. He was a lot of fun to play even though his spell casting was limited (a conscious decision on my part). I played him like a an ex-high school football player who found out he had a tiny amount of talent in magic. Played him to 14th level. A lot of fun for me and the other players. Magic Missile was his bread and butter. Good times, good times.
My point, I guess, is that an intelligent player can make a conscious decision to not optimize (for roleplaying, humor, etc) and therefore doesn't need to have someone talk down to them.
I don't see why contributing less to the party's success had to be part of that roleplaying experience. You could have just as easily roleplayed said character as a Sorcerer (captain of the football team should have good charisma) or just given him a higher intelligence mechanically and roleplayed it down.
This is an imagination game--you can imagine yourself sucking for roleplaying purposes without actually sucking and dragging your party down.
I don't see why contributing less to the party's success had to be part of that roleplaying experience. You could have just as easily roleplayed said character as a Sorcerer (captain of the football team should have good charisma) or just given him a higher intelligence mechanically and roleplayed it down.
This is an imagination game--you can imagine yourself sucking for roleplaying purposes without actually sucking and dragging your party down.
I never said I contributed less to the success. Nor would I accuse another player of said action unless they really weren't contributing (nodding off at the table, not showing up or coming to the game late, surfing the web or actively hamstringing the party). You now equate not being optimized with not contributing. I have no argument for you. Not because I believe your philosophy is superior but because after your response, I can't conceive of an argument or anecdote that would change your mind.
You appear to play this game with a fundamentally different objective than I and my regular group of players do. And that's OK, as long as you and your group have fun too. We sure do.
I am going to guess that your idea of an enjoyable RPG experience and mine is different.
We'll have to agree to disagree. But thanks for the input about the Magus on the other thread. :)
Mage Hand
Shield
Detect Invisibility
Fly
Looks like I like those utility spells.
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See, I went for spells I find flavourfully fun instead of having favourite mean most optimized. Anyone can run numbers and see what is most optimal at various levels. No, for me being a wizard is about having fun and being lazy. =D
So, my favourite spells chosen for a wizard were Arcane Mark (that's mine, that's mine, that's also mine...), Floating Disk (for Marty McFlying around the place), Unseen Servant (for anything I don't want to do myself, laundry, striking camp, generally replacing my character's mother), Spectral Hand (for the pure flavour of ghostly hands materialising and reaching for my enemies' throats), as well as silent image, ghost sound etc. spells for back up to some serious bluff checks regarding the extents of my powers!
Every one of those spells you mentioned except may Arcane Mark are very good spells. Optimization is absolutely not just about combat.
Unseen Servant and Silent Image are definitely some of the most powerful (and fun) level 1 spells, for example.
I also believe that disparaging the majority choice on the argument that you obviously know better than most people does not hold much water.Se, we can't even have a conversation. If you actively believe using a 1st level slot to automatically deal 1d4+1 from levels 1-2 and 1d4+1x2 at 3-4 level is a good idea, we have such different notions of what a good spell is that we will constantly talk past each other.
I'll take spells that allow circumventing or defeating entire encounters (combat and non) instead (sleep, color spray, grease, even obscuring mist, cause fear, charm person, expeditious retreat, web).
See, I went for spells I find flavourfully fun instead of having favourite mean most optimized. Anyone can run numbers and see what is most optimal at various levels. No, for me being a wizard is about having fun and being lazy. =D
So, my favourite spells chosen for a wizard were Arcane Mark (that's mine, that's mine, that's also mine...), Floating Disk (for Marty McFlying around the place), Unseen Servant (for anything I don't want to do myself, laundry, striking camp, generally replacing my character's mother), Spectral Hand (for the pure flavour of ghostly hands materialising and reaching for my enemies' throats), as well as silent image, ghost sound etc. spells for back up to some serious bluff checks regarding the extents of my powers!
Obviously, in combat I'd do my best with my spell list to hinder or kill enemies as much as possible, but that's certainly not my favourite thing to do when being a wizard. I don't find the most fun in "yay I've put people to sleep", but if my character is flying through the streets thinking "I'm on a hoverboard!!!" then what's not to love?
I agree that you don't need to be completely optimizied and, since this is a role-playing game, it should be about flavor a lot of the time. At the same time, Pathfinder is the descendent of a tactical wargame and I think it really shows. So, while I may play a sub-optimal choice (all the time, the only times I've stumbled upon what seem like optimal builds I end up retiring them) such as an acid wizard specialist, I will try to make that acid specialist wizard as good as possible within the existing structure so he can pull his weight.
Also, arcane mark is boss and I almost always take it. Purely for flavor (or course, I usually don't miss that cantrip slot).
The specific argument I was having up thread was about magic missile which, in my opinion, is basically a trap option.
I really like Magic Missile and think it's way better than alot of people give it credit for. I shall defend the honor of Magic Missle!
Magic Missle is a fairly solid ready action against opposing casters at low level. It's not gaurenteed to work but you can make opponents fizzle spells. Magic Missle also has a decent range to it and it never misses, sometimes just what the situation calls for. Color Spray, Grease and Obsuring Mist are all close range spells. Mist especially can be a double edged sword unless you have the prefect conditions. Later in your adventuring career it's also pretty good against incorperial enemies.
Definately worth taking as a sorcerer early and a wizard will probably find himself memorizing one or two at mid-range levels.
Done. Can't believe it, but aside drone color spray, I went with all utility spells.
Let's take a look at the damage of magic missile. As this poll concerns 1st and 2nd level spells, let us assume a caster of magic missile at level 1 and 3 (i.e. the levels which gain access to the spells being considered).
A CL1 magic-missile deals 3.5 damage on average.
A CL3 magic-missile deals 7 damage on average (or 3.5 to two targets).
A moderately optimized sword and board fighter with a longsword and 16 strength will be dealing 7.5 damage on a average hit.
A sword and board fighter can swing all day, every day. A wizard 1 can ([un]reasonably) cast magic missile 4 times a day (1 base, 1 attribute, 1 school, 1 bonded item).
Magic missile does have certain circumstantial uses that would make it a good spell (I have admitted this above; this could be said of most spells, however).
Hitting incorporeal creatures is a good example. But consider the fact that magic weapon will allow your fighter to swing for at least half damage and, because magic weapon lasts 1/minute a level, it is dramatically more effective than magic missile (even if the dice hate the fighter and he misses a lot).
Finishing off a high-AC foe with few hit points is another good example. But how often do you _know_ your opponent is down to only a few hit points?
Wands of magic missile are fun, but they may not be worth it unless the DM sticks to WBL or more.
I wish that magic missile was better (maybe up the damage to a d6? maybe some class or feat options to make them more powerful?) so that a magic missile vs brooch of shielding arms race of sorts would make sense in a campaign setting, but I just can't see magic missiles being used until a spellcaster is high enough level to not care much about 1st level slots.
unless many opponents at low level are casters, the disrupting technique is just pretty niche. caster opponents at low level are not the norm. further, ANY spell you can hit the caster with will disrupt them, color spray stuns them so there is no chance of the spell happening. a caster with combat casting has a decent chance of passing the concentration check vs. MM, and a caster with shield spell negates it completely. the only thing going for MM is it's range. unless you routinely face long distance encounters that you can't deal with some other way, and lots of casters that you want to disrupt (and play the ready action gambling game), it just can't be categorized as one of the better spell choices at that level (comparatively speaking). of course, if your character schtick is 'force mage' or something, it may be a good for that, but that is no different than ALL spells, all spells will be thematically appropriate to SOME theme, but that is hardly a good basis to do a global comparision of spells by level. not to mention there are many schools/bloodlines which give similar 'force effect' type attacks at 1st level, which can be used to fulfill the 'force mage' schtick without committing your few spells at 1st level.
Disappointed with the lack of love for Shocking Grasp, I love that spell, same with Spectral Hand.
But you COMBINE them?
Awesome.
unless many opponents at low level are casters, the disrupting technique is just pretty niche. caster opponents at low level are not the norm. further, ANY spell you can hit the caster with will disrupt them, color spray stuns them so there is no chance of the spell happening. a caster with combat casting has a decent chance of passing the concentration check vs. MM, and a caster with shield spell negates it completely. the only thing going for MM is it's range. unless you routinely face long distance encounters that you can't deal with some other way, and lots of casters that you want to disrupt (and play the ready action gambling game), it just can't be categorized as one of the better spell choices at that level (comparatively speaking). of course, if your character schtick is 'force mage' or something, it may be a good for that, but that is no different than ALL spells, all spells will be thematically appropriate to SOME theme, but that is hardly a good basis to do a global comparision of spells by level. not to mention there are many schools/bloodlines which give similar 'force effect' type attacks at 1st level, which can be used to fulfill the 'force mage' schtick without committing your few spells at 1st level.
You'd have to be within 15ft and affecting against a strong save for a caster. You could use a ray, but there will likely be some sort of cover involved 'guarenteed to hit' is worth something IMO. Every situtation will not have 'cast color spray' as the answer, even at low levels.
great, we agree about the range aspect.
so, depending on prevalence of long range initiated encounters, that could be important.
i find that low damage spells that can't reliably kill/incapacitate at range tend to cause enemies to move to cover, ready for optimal tactics against a now known threat, and call for reinforcements.
somebody mentioned a build (bloodline, feats, traits) that can up the lethality of MM at low level by alot, but of course you can similarly optimize for compulsion DCs, or anything else.
for anybody that anti-caster ready tactics is an important purpose to dedicate their few spells @1st level to,
there is also sleep (110 ft, will, AoE potential for multiple targets) and grease (25 ft, reflex, triggering two concentration checks if they fail, 1 for spell, 1 for violent motion) both of which are also broadly useful including against groups of opponents.
but yeah, MM seems to be a popular choice.
(i'm not sure if everybody was really voting based just on 1st level characters only)
anybody interested in it at 1st level should probably consider ifthey want to take one of the class options that give equivalent attacks without using spell slots, e.g. evoker's force missile.
anyhow, assuming that lots of wizards/sorcs at 1st level DO learn/prep MM, then the utility of Shield spell should probably go up somewhat :-)
but yeah, MM seems to be a popular choice.
(i'm not sure if everybody was really voting based just on 1st level characters only)
That's how I thought about it. Sor or wiz, my caster will know it, if not right at 1st level. It just hits things other people have trouble with. It'll take out another caster's spectral hand, too. DAMHIK
anybody interested in it at 1st level should probably consider ifthey want to take one of the class options that give equivalent attacks without using spell slots, e.g. evoker's force missile.
I'm in one game that's CRB only, and my evoker (4th) still uses it now and then. It's his "bow that always hits."
yeah, i almost always take it eventually, just not at 1st level.
Apparently only one person besides me cast their vote for Sepia Snake Sigil. I suppose it's not a great choice for sorcerers, but it's cool, flavorful, and targets reflex for a minimum of six days of paralysis. It's not an in-combat spell, but it's a powerful and unique effect that can solve big problems in a way many other spells can't, and it's usable at a fairly low level.
Detect Magic isn't a "good spell". It's flat out a necessity. Imho it should be core for all spellcasters (using spellcraft or perception or sense motive, or whatever). I always have the feeling that it's a must have.
With 3 more votes we will reach 200!
What would this look like with APG spells too?
What would this look like with APG spells too?
I'd rather see the complete Paizo-maintained PRD Sorcerer/Wizard Spell List.