Yikes. The voting system seems to have stirred the pot and brought stuff up from the bottom again. Ugh.
RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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Speak for yourself, Shadowborn. I grew one a couple months ago and the damn thing never stopped itching. I was never so glad to shave (especially since I went with a "Franz Joseph" for a week or so that cracked me up and amazed/horrified my co-workers).
Sadly, my girlfriend liked the beard, so I suspect it may come back. *sigh*
I dunno, I have a Cleric of Desna who's thinking of going heavy metal rock star with a couple of the RPG Superstar entries. Once we're done voting remind me and I'll tell you which two items they are that I want to combine if you can't figure it out on your own.
In a Gadda-da-vida, baby
Don't you know that I'll always be true
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Yikes again. Attack of the icky items. You want me to do what with that thing to use its magical properties? Uh-uh. You must think I'm Chaotic Crazy. You'd have a better time convincing Mr. Shoanti barbarian over there to wear these Chelaxian Lacy Garters of Diabolic Diplomacy.
o_0
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Yeah, I noticed this too. It seems that we are going through the now bottom 25% all again.
Hopefully that means that Paizo prepare to cull the herd again.
I've seen enough so far to put together my own Top 32. (Well, 36, actually, but I'm going to trim it to 32 after comparing them. Three dozen items that were done well enough to catch my eye and say "Hey, those are really good.")
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I've got 45 in my temporary keep pile, though only about six or seven are definite keeps. I'm still hunting for two items I saw a few days ago, before I started collecting them, and I think one of them will be in my Top 32...
Gah! Badly Tweaked Bag of Holding versus Super Safe Adventuring Item. Not cool!
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You guys are not seeing the bottom 25% over and over. There are just that many mediocre items. Its the same every year. It is not too hard to sort the submitted items into a keep and reject folder. I dont think the keep folder has ever been more than 100 items, usually about 60-80 or so. The potentially really good ones are pretty easy to sort from all the rest, as you folks are seeing. So if you have 48 or 50 keepers, and you likely havent seen all the items, thats about right. Then from the keep pile we pick the top 32. Seriously, it has always been pretty easy to pick the 60-80 really good potential winners from the batch of submissions. That's why I have always said this first round is not about finding the best item, its about finding the 32 contestants for RPG Superstar. From among the 60-80 keepers we find the 32 items by the 32 authors who have the mojo to win even if their submission is not perfect, because the submissions are not perfect.
You guys are not seeing the bottom 25% over and over.
Thank you Clark, thank you. I was so hoping that was the case as I have started seeing my own item more than once a day, so I was starting to worry that I had fubar-ed something yet again.
I cannot express in words how much stress you just relieved, but if a blip shows up on Norad or similar, it will be me...
BTW I love that the forum bling in the way of titles is now active. I love the marathon voter title :) Good work, everyone!
I'm out of the "ugh" items once again and back into the "that's not half bad" items. At this rate, I can keep cruising on. Who knows, maybe I'll make champion voter before this is over.
I'm out of the "ugh" items once again and back into the "that's not half bad" items. At this rate, I can keep cruising on. Who knows, maybe I'll make champion voter before this is over.
Heh heh. I can sympathize with that sentiment.
For me, I can't see me getting champion now, it took over half the voting days to achieve marathon for me and I am now really working hard on the final spit and polish on my archetype to give me a week of "sitting on it" should I be lucky enough to need it.
So my time sink has kind of been diverted to round 2 already :)
I wish I had the time to get champion, but life happens.
I've started sitting with the page open on my iPad while watching TV with my wife, maybe I'll get Marathon.
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You guys are not seeing the bottom 25% over and over. There are just that many mediocre items. Its the same every year. It is not too hard to sort the submitted items into a keep and reject folder. I dont think the keep folder has ever been more than 100 items, usually about 60-80 or so. The potentially really good ones are pretty easy to sort from all the rest, as you folks are seeing. So if you have 48 or 50 keepers, and you likely havent seen all the items, thats about right. Then from the keep pile we pick the top 32. Seriously, it has always been pretty easy to pick the 60-80 really good potential winners from the batch of submissions. That's why I have always said this first round is not about finding the best item, its about finding the 32 contestants for RPG Superstar. From among the 60-80 keepers we find the 32 items by the 32 authors who have the mojo to win even if their submission is not perfect, because the submissions are not perfect.
I'm sure that you guys are discussing next year already, but it seems that this approach could also be reflected in the public voting. As you say, the goal is not to rank ~1000 items in order, it is to find the top 32. And as you say, that is hard, but selecting the top ~100 is easier.
The public voting has been great fun, but in terms of man hours for the greater good, it hasn't been very efficient. Perhaps a two stage vote next year where you can vote "Keep/Reject" on every item once, and those with enough votes progress to a Condorcet style second stage vote.
Given that the public has shown it is prepared to put huge amounts of man-hours into this process, making those man-hours more efficient opens up other options for you. For instance you could have the "design a monster" stage as the open round 1. Each read and vote will take much longer, but with an initial Keep/Reject, the public will only be doing the Condorcet paired-voting on the really interesting and cool monsters.
The biggest problem with keep/reject option is what one person deems an instant reject, someone else might deem keep, SO if an item gets voted to reject and isn't seen again, you may very quickly end up with seeing the same 5 items again and again and again, because all of the rest got rejected by someone.
That's not how I read it. I think that Evil Paul is proposing that at first, you only see each item once; and by itself, not in a pair. Everyone gets to vote on each item, and the hundred or so entries with the best Keep/Reject ratio make it to a second round. Then we subject the survivors to Condorcet balloting (the system that we're using right now). So it's ultimately kind of like The Culling, but rather more severe, and with much less pain in each stage.
Yeah, I wondered that too - the problem there is two fold
1) you could accurately count the total submissions - this is something never revealed thus far in the history of the competition
2) if there are an odd number of submissions, one item at random you would never see as it would have nothing to pair against when you have exhausted all other pairs.
Hope that makes sense
It would take a pretty dedicated group for that to have any effect at all. If there were 960 entries, then it would take each one an average of 30 votes before they saw one of the 32. And for all that I'm an engaged forum participant and voter... well. You see my lack of a title. It's just so BORING.
Number two is not an issue because you only see one item at a time. A bigger issue would be collusion. You just gather 32 people together and trade item names and only vote for those.
Yes, Fredrik, that's exactly what I'm proposing. No pairing of items in the first batch of voting, just Keep/Reject and then a 80-90% cull at the end of the first stage. As Clerk says, this is the process the judges themselves used. Crop off the cream and then spend the bulk of the man-hours discussing those. Only in our case, we use Condorcet rather than discussion to rank the top-crop.
Coridan - I think collusion as you suggest is not a reason to discount this approach.
- An attempt such as this would show up pretty obviously on any stats Paizo did. It would be quite easy for them to look at, eg, anyone that has seen over 1000 items and voted on less than 50, and then look for some sort of collusion.
- If there are, eg, 500+ voters, then 32 of them is unlikely to be able to rig the vote. Remember you can say Keep/Reject on each item only once.
- Even if such a conspiracy was created, all it would achieve would be to get the items past the initial cull not top32... would 32 aspiring game designers really risk their reputation and a lifetime ban that?
- It is really not much different than 32 people getting together this year and deciding to up-vote their own items as a group. In fact, less of a threat, as you only get one vote per item prior in the first stage.
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- An attempt such as this would show up pretty obviously on any stats Paizo did. It would be quite easy for them to look at, eg, anyone that has seen over 1000 items and voted on less than 50, and then look for some sort of collusion.
- If there are, eg, 500+ voters, then 32 of them is unlikely to be able to rig the vote. Remember you can say Keep/Reject on each item only once.
- Even if such a conspiracy was created, all it would achieve would be to get the items past the initial cull not top32... would 32 aspiring game designers really risk their reputation and a lifetime ban that?
- It is really not much different than 32 people getting together this year and deciding to up-vote their own items as a group. In fact, less of a threat, as you only get one vote per item prior in the first stage.
It is not the pre-culling that I would be worried about, but the amount culled and the results afterward. Would 32 aspiring game designers risk everything to vote up their own items as a group? Probably not, but just 5 friends who all agree to vote for their items over all others and put in 5000 votes a piece can make a large impact. This would also be very hard to track if the guys were spaced out all over the country.
The problem is with such a small set to vote from. It works now because there are 800+ entries still in the running. You cut that to less than an eighth of what we have now and it makes the time put into trying to vote up your item and the items of your friends much more worth while.
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Shadowborn's non-exhaustive list of trendy items/themes of RPG Superstar 2013 (in no particular order):
- Swarms, swarms, swarms, swarms, swarms: We've got lots of swarm items. Items that turn you into a swarm, items that turn themselves into swarms, items that make it easier to combat swarms, and so on and so forth.
- Quills, so many quills...
- More items made from chopped up monster parts than you can shake a stick at
- Photocopiers, cell phones, fax machines...
- Camping/sleeping items
- Cooking items/items that make food
- Items that only work doing things to other items
- Items that seem forcedly feminine, possibly in an attempt to convince Sean K. Reynolds that the author is a woman
Huh, I definitely haven't seen many swarm items (or feminine ones, for that matter). A handful, but not what I'd qualify as many.
Lots of the other things you mentioned, though.
Admittedly, I haven't seen as many of the last item since the cull, but a lot of them just came off as stereotypically girly. ("This bejeweled hairbrush makes one's hair dazzlingly vibrant and grants a +4 circumstance bonus to all social skill checks", as a hypothetical example.) One other poster got the idea that since Sean had made a call to get more women competing in the contest, some entrants thought that "female-themed" items would get more attention.
I've seen the gosh darned _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ like 18 billion times now!
Lots of Monk/Ki items. Quite a few of which require you to be a Monk, and not just have Ki - rules out the poor Ninjas, as well as anyone who takes SGG's Youxia archetype.
Lots of Gunslinger/Grit items.
Lots of Cleric/Turning items.
Lots of Witch/Hexes/Curse items.
Lots of needles.
Lots of cages.
Lots of items that fiddle with how summoning works.
And lots of items that fiddle with racial traits.
And several actual fiddles, now that you mention it. Seems like the musical instrument of choice this year.
Ah, the needles. How could I forget the needles. Needles, quills...lots of pointy things.
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Oh and items that have a hidden bad surprise if you use the item too much/are the wrong class or alignment. Does that count as a cursed item?
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Some of those, if done well, aren't bad, but most weren't done well. I know what you mean. The ones that got me were items that did one thing really well, except for a small chance where things go horribly wrong in the opposite direction. ("These bracers make your dwarf able to wield a battle axe of one size larger in each hand with no penalties. However, there is a 1% chance that, when the bracers are activated, both of his arms fall off.")
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Oh right. TONS of Bardic Music items. And most of those have a very very very minor basic effect, then a whole slew of new options (or one really big one, which is supposed to make the item on its own, with the basic effect being a minor concession for anyone who's not a Bard) you can use IF you can use Bardic Performance.
Items that either don't meet their full potential or have some sort of drawback if the user isn't of a particular item aren't cursed, and there's a precedent for that. ...However I'm still finding a few items that I would call "cursed." ...If the drawbacks take up more space than the useful bits, there might be an issue. I've also seen my share of randomly added in drawbacks that seem kind of pointless.
This has probably been mentioned before, but:
- Items that show the history of a place, item, or creature.
I submitted an item like that a couple of years ago, and learned a valuable lesson in the "Critique my item" thread: such items are a headache for the GM. Even though I took pains to limit the item's scope, I now understand that few GMs would want it in the game.
I agree with this, too, for the most part. I have seen items like this that I would have fun with as a GM tool, though. Not necessarily what RPG Superstar is about, but interesting none the less. If used constantly by players, though, many do just turn into a migraine. It's a super fine-line to walk.
Then again, I have a history of getting GM headaches from unusual things. Sometime I'll have to tell you guys about the game I ran that nearly drove me to ban Detect Magic...
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
aka Jiggy
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It bugs me when there's an item that should have said "You can use this ability X times per day" but instead they spent 70 words explaining that you can use it X times per day safely and here's the risks of using it more.
Spiders! Lots of spider stuff. Not near as bad as the things on my and Shadowborn's lists above, but enough to see a theme.
All I can think right now is:
"Oh, a wise guy, eh? Soitenly! Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk!"
Also Wisdom drain. I've seen lots of items that drain Wisdom when you try to use or stop using them. This isn't Call of Cthulhu, people.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Locke1520
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The theme I keep stumbling over is "stuff that holds stuff." It was worse before the Cull but I still see plenty of them...scabbards...bags...quivers...jewelry...wall-to-wall shag carpet...perhaps not all of those but a lot of stuff holds stuff. Not all of it is bad I kinda liked a couple of the ones I've seen but it's definitely a popular theme. One I'll avoid writing for next year.
Ah yes. Another one that should have been on my list. Lots of items dealing with extradimensional spaces. Lots, and lots, and lots of them...
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I haven't seen a pattern of Wisdom drain stuff (though now that I said that, I'm sure I will), but I have seen my share of extradimensional space items. The ones I've seen have run the gamut, too... I have actually seen a few that were designed well. Maybe not a top 32 choice, but something I at least found interesting.
After another long voting stint, I really find myself hoping that most of these people submit their items to the critique thread after. I've seen a few that I really liked, sans one huge design hole... or a concept that really wow'd me, but the execution needs tweaking. The "so close" ones are just so heart breaking because they have potential. Most of those errors are things that could be spotted with a rest and then looking over with fresh eyes or just a bit more practice, so fingers crossed the submitters don't get discouraged.
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Huh, I definitely haven't seen many swarm items (or feminine ones, for that matter). A handful, but not what I'd qualify as many.
Lots of the other things you mentioned, though.
Seen plenty of both. What I haven't seen yet is a feminine swarm item. Which has the potential to be either awesome or horrifying, depending on how it's implemented.
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Seen plenty of both. What I haven't seen yet is a feminine swarm item. Which has the potential to be either awesome or horrifying, depending on how it's implemented.Huh, I definitely haven't seen many swarm items (or feminine ones, for that matter). A handful, but not what I'd qualify as many.
Lots of the other things you mentioned, though.
Now that has the potential for a fine Calistrian holy item.
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Now that has the potential for a fine Calistrian holy item.Seen plenty of both. What I haven't seen yet is a feminine swarm item. Which has the potential to be either awesome or horrifying, depending on how it's implemented.Huh, I definitely haven't seen many swarm items (or feminine ones, for that matter). A handful, but not what I'd qualify as many.
Lots of the other things you mentioned, though.
I think I've seen one or two that might count.
I also think I may have seen what could be considered a feminine swarm item.
I also ran into a string of items last night that felt a little forced feminine to me. I've also seen some interesting girly items, but I always get a little irked when it seems fairly aparent that the person who wrote the description doesn't have a clear understanding of how a non-magical/wondrous version of the item functions. Or the phrasing around a "feminine" item sounds like it could have been pulled from an issue of Glamour, Cosmo, or Vogue, rather than from personal experience.
I won't say more than that, for fear of being over specific. And it's entirely possible that a girl could have still submitted the item these items. ...But guys, if you're trying to write a feminine item that should appeal to females (because it's not a bad area of the game to explore), it might behoove you to ask one to read over your entry.
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Anyone else notice that the items with random drawbacks tend to be tinker-gnome items?
Anyone else notice that the items with random drawbacks tend to be tinker-gnome items?
Random as in "roll dX, see what happens", "arbitrarily added on, making them possibly cursed items", or "5% chance of X"?
If the first, that sounds right. The latter two have a much wider theme.
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Even with the "roll dX, see what happens," you make work for the DM unless each result is clearly defined in the text.
Which at 300 words or less is unlikely.
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Even with the "roll dX, see what happens," you make work for the DM unless each result is clearly defined in the text.
Which at 300 words or less is unlikely.
Roll a d6 - you cannot modify the result or the dice.
If you roll a 1, you die of template abuse shame
If you roll a 2, you are disintegrated on the spot
If you roll a 3, you must sing all the Superstar songs on utube
If you roll a 4, you must write an archetype for Wayfinder 9
If you roll a 5, you must roll again until you don't get a 5
If you roll a 6, you are immediately teleported to the north pole - naked, only you get teleported, not your gear or clothing
If you roll a 7, you win a Top 32 slot
How's that for less than 300 words (plenty left to do all the template stuff I think).
Even with the "roll dX, see what happens," you make work for the DM unless each result is clearly defined in the text.
Which at 300 words or less is unlikely.
a d6 - you cannot modify the result or the dice.
If you roll a 1, you die of template abuse shame
If you roll a 2, you are disintegrated on the spot
If you roll a 3, you must sing all the Superstar songs on utube
If you roll a 4, you must write an archetype for Wayfinder 9
If you roll a 5, you must roll again until you don't get a 5
If you roll a 6, you are immediately teleported to the north pole - naked, only you get teleported, not your gear or clothing
If you roll a 7, you win a Top 32 slotHow's that for less than 300 words (plenty left to do all the template stuff I think).
Sir, I stand corrected. :)