Gunslingers need to be fixed just like my dog. Then they'd stop breeding and eventually they'd die out completely.
The thing I dislike a bout gunslinger are guns targetting touch AC, it is insane.
Considering firearms were the reason for the decline of armor, due to the fact that most early firearms could punch right through them, I think firearms targeting touch AC was the best way Paizo came up with to represent this. Certainly not THE best approach, but the best under current system.
It was either this or increasing the damage of firearms by at least one die type as they were in 3.0/3.5.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problems with gunslingers are mostly due to double pistols (and sometimes dual double pistols) and weapon chords. Knock those out, and you're back at a fairly reasonable class that a dedicated archer (aka: one who takes the most obvious feats) will out do.
Well, also fix Targeting so it doesn't auto-trip anyone it hits.
The problems with gunslingers are mostly due to double pistols (and sometimes dual double pistols) and weapon chords. Knock those out, and you're back at a fairly reasonable class that a dedicated archer (aka: one who takes the most obvious feats) will out do.
Well, also fix Targeting so it doesn't auto-trip anyone it hits.
Wait, people are letting people reload pistols using hands that have other pistols strapped to them with weapon cords? People get that they aren't nice long bungie cords right? I've always understood it to be that your weapon gets knocked out of your hand, but the handle is tightly strapped to your wrist, so you just straighten your arm and grab it again. That sort of setup would make reloading basically impossible.
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IMO, the problem with Gunslingers is less that they target touch AC and more the damage type they are given and critical multipliers. With the touch AC to confirm critical hits, no firearm should have more than a x2 critical multiplier. However, you have idiocy like a d12 musket which does 4d12 on a critical and you aren't subject to the risk of getting into melee where you could be attacked.
The Grit, etc. are annoying, but the fundamental problem is that the firearms are too good for a setting where bows and armor are still expected to be viable.
The problems with gunslingers are mostly due to double pistols (and sometimes dual double pistols) and weapon chords. Knock those out, and you're back at a fairly reasonable class that a dedicated archer (aka: one who takes the most obvious feats) will out do.
Well, also fix Targeting so it doesn't auto-trip anyone it hits.
It always made me wonder why implement guns to begin with, when it negates almost all the armor in the game and y'know, the dragons with magical scales and the barbarian wearing a +5 armor still gets holes blown through him by a gunslinger.
Unless everyone uses guns (cowboy campaign anyone?) they make a ton of monsters balanced versus spells,weapons,etc. Useless. So you get a bunch of gunslingers versus gunslingers.
It's the slow rate of fire without significant investment and risk that makes it work decently well.
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Unless everyone uses guns (cowboy campaign anyone?) they make a ton of monsters balanced versus spells,weapons,etc. Useless. So you get a bunch of gunslingers versus gunslingers.
Three gunslingers and a paladin at the table.
Gunslinger to paladin: "Seems to me, you brought a sword to a gunfight."
Kidding aside, our group allows guns and gunslingers. We don't have any blatant balance issues, and the combats are still fun for everyone.
Unless everyone uses guns (cowboy campaign anyone?) they make a ton of monsters balanced versus spells,weapons,etc. Useless. So you get a bunch of gunslingers versus gunslingers.Three gunslingers and a paladin at the table.
Gunslinger to paladin: "Seems to me, you brought a sword to a gunfight."
Kidding aside, our group allows guns and gunslingers. We don't have any blatant balance issues, and the combats are still fun for everyone.
Paladin would just use the archetype to give him guns :P
I've had a gunslinger in a group that did Fireball number of damage rolls a turn every turn. Along with a high initiative made every encounter the enemy would explode before we could diplomacy it down lol
Unless everyone uses guns (cowboy campaign anyone?) they make a ton of monsters balanced versus spells,weapons,etc. Useless. So you get a bunch of gunslingers versus gunslingers.Three gunslingers and a paladin at the table.
Gunslinger to paladin: "Seems to me, you brought a sword to a gunfight."
Kidding aside, our group allows guns and gunslingers. We don't have any blatant balance issues, and the combats are still fun for everyone.
Paladin would just use the archetype to give him guns :P
I've had a gunslinger in a group that did Fireball number of damage rolls a turn every turn. Along with a high initiative made every encounter the enemy would explode before we could diplomacy it down lol
I'm building a campaign for a wild west themed world, and paladins all use a variation of the holy gun archetype (the weapon is granted to them by a special organization they belong to).
As for the gunslinger doing fireball number of dmg rolls per turn, unless he was high enough level to have multiple attacks (complete with the rapid shot, rapid reload, and improved two-weapon fighting feats), two revolvers, and some homebrew instant reloading weapon special property, I don't see this happening. However, if he IS high enough and willing, to explode everyone he meets, I would think it is the player, not the class, that has an issue.
the style that I used (and got my gunslingers banned by my wife) was to wear a brace of double barreled pistols (usually 6 to 8)
It was shoot shoot (this was before the pistolero, so I was twfing the playtest slinger) drop, draw, shoot shoot, drop draw.
Yea there was some draw backs and such, like I had pistols laying about the battle field, maybe some one could steal them? there were TPP feats that woukld have let me reholster as a free action, but i handt gotten to a level to take it yet.
basically, combats never really got past the 4th or 5th round, so I usually didn't run out of pistols to drop. Then went back around and reloaded them before moving on.
The Grit features aren't a problem (in fact this should be a FIGTER mechanic) but the GUNS are the issue and trying to use them with the current combat system.
I don't think Gunslingers are too powerful. They deal lots of damage and that's it. They don't have much versatility other than their skill points, which are only decent.
That said, I do think that PF rules for firearms are idiotic. Guns are easily the worst weapons in the game (unless you're a gunslinger!) and their touch AC mechanics makes no sense.
It's very possible to dodge a bullet, but an adamantine golem's armor is completely negated... WTF?
I've GMed for a Gunslinger before. The only time he was ridiculous was when I gave him a double-barreled shotgun to test. Those rules are ridiculous, but the class as a whole works well.
What it really comes down to is that the Gunslinger is a class designed to stack penalties on attack rolls in exchange for damage. They take their Fighter BAB, look at touch ACs, and say, "Golly, I'm beating that by 5, 10 points on average!" Then they take feats like Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and so on that place penalties on their attack rolls in exchange for damage. They do tend to hit more often, but they're barred from the feats that make archers the kings they are.
If the Gunslinger reveals one flaw with the game, it is that there are simply not enough monsters that rely on Dexterity / Dodge bonuses for their AC as opposed to armor.
Gunslingers only shine when the other classes don't have access to firearms. And if Gunslinger hitting on Touch AC with a Weapon that they still have to spend money on to get around DR then why don't people complain about a Wizard who can do that at Level 1!
Guns replaced Swords, Bows, Crossbows, and such for a reason. Yeah a Gunslinger might be powerful at power levels when the Fighter or Paladin doesn't have a Pistol but the moment they get a Pistol the Gunslinger starts to suffer.
Also don't forget that an Early Firearm is only hitting Touch AC at a fairly close range. Yeah, Advanced Firearms bypass that BUT when those become available everyone will be able to afford a Firearm by level 2 if using standard WBL and when Advanced FAs become available a Gunslinger loses their free firearm.
Also the Paladin's Firearm Archetype is worthless and I honestly wonder why it was allowed into print. It basically removes everything that would allow a Paladin to effectively use their gun for worthless abilities. Heck, take one level of Mysterious Stranger then just try straight Paladin or Divine Hunter and you have a better holy gun.
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Gunslingers are one of those touchy subjects as you get Historical Nuts like me who like the eras when Firearms were still fresh interacting with people who love the "Traditional" Fantasy heroes. Ironically, most iconic fantasy heroes used Firearms of some sort.
On-Topic: Gunslingers don't need fixed. It is the Theory Crafters who get bored and frightening newer GMs with there usually Illegal Builds. Though some are legal.
On Weapon Cords: Historically a Weapon Lash (What Weapon Cords are typically called) were around 2 feet long with 6 inches dedicated to the wielders wrist and another 6 inches dedicated to their Weapon. It is feasible for you to reload a Pistol using a Weapon Cord to hold another Pistol. Especially given that a typical Double Barreled Pistol would weigh only 6 pounds and be pretty well balanced.
TL;DR: Gunslingers aren't broken but the Theory Crafters are. It is easier for a Gunslinger to be broken with their Deadshot Deed.
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Solution to gunslingers: A period pistol takes 45 seconds for an expert to reload, which 45/6=7.5 rounds, round down for fairness's sake, and you have a 7 round reload time per weapon...
Lets say Rapid reload halves that, and we'll round down again to 3 rounds... In that time an Archery focused fighter or ranger has put somewhere between 3 and 9 arrows into the gunman, and that's just for one pistol.
Ta-daa, gunpowder weapons with there massive criticals and armor penetration are balanced against the humble longbow, just using reality as a base.
The other solution to Gunslingers my gamemaster using in our skull and shackles game is the Highwayman class from AEG's 3.0 book Swashbuckling Adventures, which is a Rogue based class that doesn't get grit but gets lots of gun focused feats.
Using reality as a base, then the rounds system would have to be changed, you can't apply reality time line to just guns and not things like bows and swords.... 7 attacks in 6 seconds? No. sorry. Fantasy. Shooting two arrows with one shot every 6 seconds. No sorry fantasy.
So as long as we are talking fantasy, lets keep it all fantasy.
Ironically, most iconic fantasy heroes used Firearms of some sortWhat?
Most heroes that Players try to imitate when first starting out used Firearms at least once. There are exceptions to this based on whether the Player is interested in History and Epics like Beowulf and Gilgamesh.
@Pendagast: 2 arrows with one shot is actually easy if you use an older non-synthetic Bow and antiqued shooting techniques. And 7 attacks in 6 seconds is possible especially if someone is Dual-Wielding and is trained in that fighting style.
Ironically, most iconic fantasy heroes used Firearms of some sortWhat?
Most heroes that Players try to imitate when first starting out used Firearms at least once. There are exceptions to this based on whether the Player is interested in History and Epics like Beowulf and Gilgamesh.
@Pendagast: 2 arrows with one shot is actually easy if you use an older non-synthetic Bow and antiqued shooting techniques. And 7 attacks in 6 seconds is possible especially if someone is Dual-Wielding and is trained in that fighting style.
Is turning people into stone with a stare possible? Or breathing fire?
Realism makes no sense if you only apply it to a few things.
Solution to gunslingers: A period pistol takes 45 seconds for an expert to reload, which 45/6=7.5 rounds, round down for fairness's sake, and you have a 7 round reload time per weapon...
Lets say Rapid reload halves that, and we'll round down again to 3 rounds... In that time an Archery focused fighter or ranger has put somewhere between 3 and 9 arrows into the gunman, and that's just for one pistol.
Ta-daa, gunpowder weapons with there massive criticals and armor penetration are balanced against the humble longbow, just using reality as a base.
The other solution to Gunslingers my gamemaster using in our skull and shackles game is the Highwayman class from AEG's 3.0 book Swashbuckling Adventures, which is a Rogue based class that doesn't get grit but gets lots of gun focused feats.
Firearms are the worst weapons in the game. Only viable way to make them useful is being a gunslinger with Gun Training.