Goblin Squad Member
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This is not eve. It's a serious issue in LOTRO where players will farm their multi-box'ed alts to gain experience, the devs ignore it even though those cheating players gain 4x the experience as legit players. Since PFO will be based on player interaction there will most assuredly be far more avenues for abuse we don't know about yet.
If every player is running around with 2+ PC's in their control, it cheapens the experience drastically and discourages player interaction, the very last thing the people at PFO want to happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Technically I think blatent playing of multiple characters at a time, should be a banable offense.Technically I think that is completely unreasonable.I completely agree.
It will be not only possible, but easy to get multiple characters online under your control at the same time. Why do you want the only people who can do that to be the people who are willing to break the rules?
It would also be really nice if you didn't give away your alts because they were never online at the same time as you.
Also why my suggestion for dealing with it, is more on the realm of making it less viable to benefit from doing so, via making the game more exciting when playing, rather than some expected cheat detection device. Now exceptions, say things like bot trains, cross matched keyboards etc... that have existed in some other games (IE settings that your characters move in perfect unison) are both obvious on sight, and blatently take the fun of the game from others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand the frustration of feeling like someone else is gaining an unfair advantage, and I agree that it's generally good for GW to make sure that doesn't happen in PFO. I'm just not convinced that "having more than one character online at the same time" is really going to lead to an unfair advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand the frustration of feeling like someone else is gaining an unfair advantage, and I agree that it's generally good for GW to make sure that doesn't happen in PFO. I'm just not convinced that "having more than one character online at the same time" is really going to lead to an unfair advantage.
Provided the mechanics do not give huge advantages in having a semi-active heal/buff slave, it won't. In the event that it is very easy to keep an AFK follower alive with minimal slowdown., than we are looking at double the ability slots for a character running duo with himself vs solo.
Of course that also is greatly reduced assuming the time gathering a party also increases value gained by a large enough percentage to make up for the time organizing the party with a good amount to spare. (No shortage of games in which it takes an hour to gather a party, and with a party you barely gain more than solo/duo if at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect the party dynamics to be different than other games in that you can assemble whatever size party you want and content is not specifically catered to your group size. If you have more people, you'll be a more powerful group, that is all. Catering content to specific party sizes is one of the biggest dev resource drain in MMORPG's, I am sure PFO won't make that same mistake.
This also significantly reduces one of the reasons people multi-box.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My thoughts on this......
I've read that one of the Devs is formerly from CCP (EvE Online). I've also read that PFO will use a similar classless, real time skill training system. If this remains unchanged then it is likely we will see the same character / alternate character / multiple account dynamic we see in EVE Online.
In a classless, real time skill training game one main character is all you need to eventually become a jack of all trades and a master of many. Other character slots on the same account are used as spies, war target scouts (if not in same corp as main), and transporters of supplies to and from areas where the main character can not go.
Some players do purchase a second account, that allows for a second main character and supporting alternatives. This also provides an untraceable buffer between your two accounts. Trades between accounts can be conducted quickly, cheaply and also secretly.
Game producers actively encourage multiple accounts for obvious reasons. This is why they would never ban the practice or render the buffer I mentioned useless to the purchaser of two or more accounts.
As soon as you encourage multi-boxing as a perfectly acceptable way to play, you force everyone to do it if they want the same advantages. For most people, this is not a fun way to play, nor is it a fun way to interact with other players when most PC's you see are just an empty shell because the player is paying more attention to alt #3.
i hate multiboxing as much as most others, but you know what you can only program and mirror so many keystrokes at once, and in a pvp environment its just going to get you killed. and your three alts. at the same time.
No multiple characters per account? This game is looking worse and worse. I love playing multiple characters in an mmo. It allows me to see things in different prospective and build a character differently. Oh but you can if you pay more money.
No multiple characters per account? This game is looking worse and worse. I love playing multiple characters in an mmo. It allows me to see things in different prospective and build a character differently. Oh but you can if you pay more money.
you can have multiple chars, how many is unknown, but honestly its probably going to be moot as its starting to look like you can eventually given enough time have your one character master everything. I could be wrong though.
And this is most definitely not the first time an mmo has charged for extra charterer slots or limited you to just one character. SWG you had to earn your second character slot by getting lucky on a RNG and that games was a success till they changed the game. FFXI was a great success for square enix and you got charged an extra 1 or two per month for each additional character you had. Most mmos are charging to unlock additional slots for char creation. and people are proving its a good bushiness model by spending the money to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Draelin Did you read this thread? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. It is clear you can have multiple characters per account.
@Bluddwolf & Darsch It will take 2.5 years to fully realize the potential of a single 'archetype'. There are currently 7 archetypes in development. That would mean more than 17 years of playing to become a 'master of all archetypes,' which doesn't even include possible crafting skills, settlement management skills, merchant skills, exploration skills, etc.
Even if you estimate that it only takes 1 year of training for you to be proficient in an area, it will take a really long time to become a jack-of-trades. That also doesn't take into account any additional character advancement options the devs release after the game goes live.
I don't think we have too much to worry about on that point :)
@leperkhaun I don't remember where we first asked about tablet/smartphone apps for things like character training, but Ryan did respond with "that would be really cool." I'm certain it is something that he will look into, though I don't expect it will be prioritized for release or even shortly after... Unless we Crowdforge for it to be a priority ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As soon as you encourage multi-boxing as a perfectly acceptable way to play, you force everyone to do it if they want the same advantages. For most people, this is not a fun way to play, nor is it a fun way to interact with other players when most PC's you see are just an empty shell because the player is paying more attention to alt #3.i hate multiboxing as much as most others, but you know what you can only program and mirror so many keystrokes at once, and in a pvp environment its just going to get you killed. and your three alts. at the same time.
Oh I agree, the open pvp hopefully will help discourage multi-boxing as those people will be called out in the community and killed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kafika, can you point me to the where they state the 7 archetypes in dev?
The last I saw was that it would be 11, from the "Your Pathfinder Online Character" blog post
Each of the base classes in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook will be represented in the online game in this way, and in time we intend to add additional development paths to simulate prestige classes, archetypes, and base classes from other Pathfinder RPG content such as the Advanced Player's Guide and the Ultimate rulebooks.
These are the 11 basic development paths, which we refer to as archetypes. The key to each archtype is a skill tree that encourages characters to train a skill that is directly linked to their development in that archetype, in addition to many other skills.
•Barbarians—masters of rage. In the ways of their people, in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conflict is all these brutal souls know.
•Bards—masters of inspiration. These characters capably confuse and confound their foes while inspiring their allies to ever—greater daring.
•Clerics—masters of divine power. These characters' true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need.
•Druids—masters of nature empathy. Allies to beasts and manipulators of nature, these often misunderstood protectors of the wild strive to shield their lands from all who would threaten them.
•Fighters—masters of weapons. Lords of the battlefield, these characters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons.
•Monks—masters of ki power. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade.
•Paladins—masters of smiting evil. These noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil.
•Rangers—masters of tracking. Knowledgeable, patient, and skilled hunters, these characters hound man, beast, and monster alike, gaining insight into the way of the predator.
•Rogues—masters of stealth. Ever just one step ahead of danger, these characters bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor.
•Sorcerers—masters of blood magic. Scions of innately magical bloodlines, the chosen of deities, the spawn of monsters, pawns of fate and destiny, or simply flukes of fickle magic, these characters look within themselves for arcane prowess and draw forth might few mortals can imagine.
•Wizards—masters of hermetic magic. These shrewd magic-users seek, collect, and covet esoteric knowledge, drawing on cultic arts to work wonders beyond the abilities of mere mortals.
Has this changed?
@Draelin Did you read this thread? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. It is clear you can have multiple characters per account.
@Bluddwolf & Darsch It will take 2.5 years to fully realize the potential of a single 'archetype'. There are currently 7 archetypes in development. That would mean more than 17 years of playing to become a 'master of all archetypes,' which doesn't even include possible crafting skills, settlement management skills, merchant skills, exploration skills, etc.
Even if you estimate that it only takes 1 year of training for you to be proficient in an area, it will take a really long time to become a jack-of-trades. That also doesn't take into account any additional character advancement options the devs release after the game goes live.
I don't think we have too much to worry about on that point :)
@leperkhaun I don't remember where we first asked about tablet/smartphone apps for things like character training, but Ryan did respond with "that would be really cool." I'm certain it is something that he will look into, though I don't expect it will be prioritized for release or even shortly after... Unless we Crowdforge for it to be a priority ;)
i never said it would take 2.5 to master everything, just said its looking like you could have one character learn everything given enough time.
Kafika, can you point me to the where they state the 7 archetypes in dev?
avari go here and scroll down to "But What about Levels and Classes?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kafika, can you point me to the where they state the 7 archetypes in dev?avari go here and scroll down to "But What about Levels and Classes?"
I think that's what avari3 had in mind when he asked about why Kafi was talking about 7 when that blog talks about 11.
I seem to remember the devs indicating that they might not be able to get all 11 roles available for day 1 of Early Enrollment, but I can't find it right now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My bad!
For some reason I remembered 17+ years was a magic number, and extrapolated that back to 7 classes...
I am not sure how many archetypes there will be at Early Access and at Open Launch.
The overall point is that yes, given enough time, one character could eventually master everything. The amount of time necessary in our case is over 20 years... that includes an assumption that no more is added to the game in those 20 years and a BIG assumption that a character will be 'given enough time.' On the contrary, it is very likely impossible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My bad!
For some reason I remembered 17+ years was a magic number, and extrapolated that back to 7 classes...
I am not sure how many archetypes there will be at Early Access and at Open Launch.
The overall point is that yes, given enough time, one character could eventually master everything. The amount of time necessary in our case is over 20 years... that includes an assumption that no more is added to the game in those 20 years and a BIG assumption that a character will be 'given enough time.' On the contrary, it is very likely impossible.
I would hope once you become better in one area there would be a penalty in other (opposite) areas of skill. This would be another way to help new characters to advance in specialized areas quickly, whereas a veteran who is trained in other specialties could learn those skills but it would take more time. This also gives a reason why playing multiple players is an attractive option.
We seem to have 2 threads going on here:
Playing multiple characters at the same time (aka multiboxing) = BAD
Playing multiple characters (alts) = GOOD
Hopefully GW does what they can to make the prior an unattractive option and the later an attractive one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope once you become better in one area there would be a penalty in other (opposite) areas of skill. This would be another way to help new characters to advance in specialized areas quickly, whereas a veteran who is trained in other specialties could learn those skills but it would take more time.My bad!
For some reason I remembered 17+ years was a magic number, and extrapolated that back to 7 classes...
I am not sure how many archetypes there will be at Early Access and at Open Launch.
The overall point is that yes, given enough time, one character could eventually master everything. The amount of time necessary in our case is over 20 years... that includes an assumption that no more is added to the game in those 20 years and a BIG assumption that a character will be 'given enough time.' On the contrary, it is very likely impossible.
Well, that is in the game in a sense: In PFO, your character's stats (e.g. Strength, Dexterity) determine not your damage/abilities, but how quickly you can train skills that are tied to each stat. So a high-strength character will quickly learn how to be a Fighter, but if he/she has low Intelligence, they may not learn spells very quickly. (NOTE: I have no idea what the stats like Strength correspond to in the PnP game; this is just an example. I also don't even know if they are called stats in either the PnP game or in PFO ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pat: OK, so I — so I would want to like, want to start, just make like five alts right at once and just let them sit there, and they would be gaining XP even though I’m not playing them actively?
Mark: Well, your account will only have one character that is gaining XP at any time. So, you know, you subscribe to one account, and that account has one player gaining XP over time.
I wondered about having multiple characters with one subscription but also about having multiple subscriptions and sharing resources between them (or more likely pooling resources for the benefit of one 'main character').
Is that sort of thing likely to be allowable?
I think, as of now, that you will be able to create 3 characters per account. And I've seen Ryan mention sharing items between your characters as a way to gain more storage space. So unless that changes it should work out fine for your plans.
As far as spilling up more then 1 char at a time, well the other posters here are covering that <grin>
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am terrible for my altaholism, notorious even. I really should go through a twelve step program for it.
Best not... they tend to tell you that you're powerless and therefore need a supernatural entity to help you quit. Requiring faith in some unknowable thing's ability to change you instead of building up faith in your ability change yourself sounds like a recipe for disaster. Thank goodness there are more scientifically-sound programs out there that delve into the psychology of addiction in a way that empowers the individual and their social support to actually understand what they're dealing with!
Incidentally, if "-aholic" indicates a person addicted to something, (like 'chocaholic' for chocolate), then what would you call someone addicted to alchemy?
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Looks like most of this worry about training an alt can be put to rest!
Destiny's Twin:
As a special feature of Adventurer accounts, you'll be able to have two characters training skills at the same time! While one character is learning how to master the martial arts and gain renown as a warrior, your other character can be learning the intricacies of the crafting system and earning a name as an industrial powerhouse! As long as your primary character is earning skill points, so will its counterpart - FOREVER! The value of this benefit could easily reach hundreds of dollars if you became a long-term player of Pathfinder Online.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
About 23 post before this one I asked about múltiple PCs of various alignments, settlements and charter companies being on the same account (seemed it got missed in the multi box debate), anything changed now that they updated the &35 tier for two mains to be trained at the same time?
(If my question was already answered in another thread, please point me in that direction as I might have missed it)
It's strangely unsettling to be called out by name to try to answer a question - it makes me feel a lot of sympathy for the times I've directly addressed Ryan and Lee.
To be clear, my answers are in no way official, but I'll do my best :)
Having read all of the developers blogs and many pages of posts on this forum, I have a few questions about playing multiple characters on a single account. If these questions have already been covered in other threads please let me know, there are so many to keep track of. :)
1- can I have multiple characters of different alignments, roles/themes, settlement loyalties and charter companies on the same account? Example:
A) LG Human Paladin (soldier & adventurer paths), Rivertown settlement, CC Crusader Knights
B) NG Dwarf Cleric Of Torag (harvester & crafter paths), Greenville settlement , CC Merchants Crafthouse
C) LE Human Ranger/Rogue (scout & bandit paths), Bloodrock settlement, CC Order of The Iron Fist
Each of the above characters appeals to me for different reasons, but I am not clear if I can play them all on the same account (with the understanding that I will need to pay in real money if I want to train them all at the same time).
2) I know that the Three starting races are human, dwarf and elf, and that the other core races will be added to the game before full launch. How do I go about incorporating new races while I am playing in early enrollment?
3) if I have multiple characters on the same account, can I share coins, items, gear and loot between them?
4) has there been any word on any applications that can be used with smartphones & tablets for managing your characters when you are away from your computer or laptop, but still want to be active in the PFO game?
Just a few things that came to mind while reading many topics here...
1. There hasn't been an official acknowledgment either way. I'd be willing to be that there won't be any restrictions on which characters you can have on a single account.
2. Ryan has said that we'll very likely be able to change our race for free during Early Enrollment as new races are allowed. He's also said that he'd rather now allow this kind of race change once we're in Open Enrollment because he thinks it's a good thing when players have to making meaningful choices.
3. Again, no official acknowledgment yet. I'm tempted to expect a Shared Bank where you could share these kinds of things, but I would also expect not to be able to effectively side-step the need to transport goods. I'm actually beginning to hope that each Settlement might have its own Bank, and you have to go to the Settlement where you deposited items in order to withdraw them again.
4. Ryan has been very enthusiastic about creating alternative portals via smartphones and such in order to at least stay in touch with what's going on in the game. I think it's safe to expect they'll at least consider letting us choose which skills to train, etc.
If I've gotten any of this wrong, or stated it in a confusing way, there should be plenty of people capable of clearing it up :)
@Nihimon
Thanks for the replies, I asked for you by name because I have been reading the first two pages of posts on this forum for almost three weeks now and I noticed you have a talent for finding answers, liking posts, and sharing info faster then most of the "regulars" here. :)
And I just got home now and saw the all the new add on options that I can add to my account, now I am torn between "I want!" and "can I afford this?". I get paid next Friday 1/11/13 so I still have time to work on a new budget! Lol
Nihimon is awesome like that, types just way to fast.
My bad!
For some reason I remembered 17+ years was a magic number, and extrapolated that back to 7 classes...
I am not sure how many archetypes there will be at Early Access and at Open Launch.
The overall point is that yes, given enough time, one character could eventually master everything. The amount of time necessary in our case is over 20 years... that includes an assumption that no more is added to the game in those 20 years and a BIG assumption that a character will be 'given enough time.' On the contrary, it is very likely impossible.
theoreticaly possible, plausibly impossible... i kinda like that.hmm realy gives value to alts and twin destiny.
Nihimon's page
Goblin Squad Member. 3,433 posts. No reviews. 4 lists. 1 wishlist. 5 aliases.
that is a lot of posts. far more then i have. now i feel rather inferior. but nihimon has been active far longer then i have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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theoreticaly possible, plausibly impossible... i kinda like that.hmm realy gives value to alts and twin destiny.My bad!
For some reason I remembered 17+ years was a magic number, and extrapolated that back to 7 classes...
I am not sure how many archetypes there will be at Early Access and at Open Launch.
The overall point is that yes, given enough time, one character could eventually master everything. The amount of time necessary in our case is over 20 years... that includes an assumption that no more is added to the game in those 20 years and a BIG assumption that a character will be 'given enough time.' On the contrary, it is very likely impossible.
Yeah, I think it was the Fear The Boot interview where Mark talked a little about how there were basically two ways of doing skill-based games: Either there was an upper limit to how many skills you could have (like rearranging where your points were in WoW talent trees, or a system where you would 'unlearn' something in order to start learning something else) or you could create so many skills with such a long time to learn that nobody could ever learn them all. PFO is of the second variety.
I like this because it means that identically progressed characters will not be common, especially after 2.5 years. Also, its just a good feeling to know your character is not just changing, it's always getting better. There is always some way you can improve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm just torn about the capstone thing. I'd like to include handy skills and abilities from, say the Monk when playing my twin Wizard (or from Ranger or Rogue for my Twin Druid) but I worry that I will regret it when I reach the equivalent of L20 and want the capstone too.
Well that's where game balancing comes in and as Open beta players we will have our input. By and large I think we want multi class to be viable and versatile while single class should have access to specialized awesomeness.
It is something that will be tweaked from day one to the day the server goes down.
I'm just torn about the capstone thing. I'd like to include handy skills and abilities from, say the Monk when playing my twin Wizard (or from Ranger or Rogue for my Twin Druid) but I worry that I will regret it when I reach the equivalent of L20 and want the capstone too.
they have already completely changed game design in regards to capstones.
i want to say nihimon posted links to the forum posts about it awhile back , when i get home i will look it up for you bieing. I am not sure of all the particulars but it seems like an entirely different direction then before so you might not be losing anything branching out like you wanted to.
So what we're proposing now is the idea of a "Dedication" or "Focus" bonus.
Essentially, whenever you only have feats from one role slotted (rounded out with generic feats that aren't role-specific), you'll gain a bonus to doing what that role is supposed to do. This bonus is pegged to making the pure build competitive with the best synergistic multi-role build, may shift over time as new synergies are discovered, and may scale up in power based on your level (becoming similar in power to tabletop's Capstone at 20th level if high-level synergies are really powerful).
As long you have the requisites slotted your good