CEO, Goblinworks
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@All - quick answers
1: If you are a Buddy or Guild all the people involved will get the Daily Deals
2: If you upgrade from the $35 Adventurer level to any higher Reward, you'll keep all the Daily Deals you've earned.
3: If you upgrade to a Buddy or Guild level Reward, you'll be able to grandfather in the other people involved!
4: Way too soon to know if these items will be lootable. A topic for future Crowdforging!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is really a great idea, I love this kind of stuff. In another game I played they had limited edition items like this and they became very rare and valuable later on in the life of the game, even though they were not any better than common items. I'm so glad PFO isn't going the way of recent MMORPG's that feel the need to "bind" everything. Put it into the market and lets have fun with it, makes collector items that much more special. Really looking forward to what's in store with the daily deals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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4: Way too soon to know if these items will be lootable. A topic for future Crowdforging!
Might want to decide this soon, I know there are a ton of people that won't be influenced by this new addition if they can be looted, and they won't back the project unless they know they will be able to keep the items forever unless they trade or sell them.
I would suggest making them automatically threaded, and use 50% less 'thread' when equipped than their closest equivalent item. If they are just sitting in your bag, they should use 99% less thread.
Once they leave the hands of the original owner, I would be fine with them being lootable, and not receiving reductions in 'thread' cost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally think they should be put in a cosmetic *slot* and have no need to be threaded and additionally be un-lootable.
They're weapons, you hit with them, they're not purely cosmetic. If equipped weapons are lootable, I expect these to be as well. The solution could be if you keep them in a certain container they are safe. Take them out in safe areas to show them off if you want. It could be a way somebody could bait attackers, walk around in the wilderness with your super rare item out in the open. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I might make a suggestion, there should be a place to store items/wealth safely like a bank of Abadar. That way, like these new daily deal items, players can keep them safe while they don't necessarily have the threads to keep them from being looted.
This also opens up the option for players to use them even if they don't, but they are taking the chance to lose them if they are killed and looted. Seems a good mix between risk and reward and you don't punish anyone unfairly this way rather than just shoving the 30 odd cool items into inventories with an instant chance of losing them all.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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They're weapons, you hit with them, they're not purely cosmetic. If equipped weapons are lootable, I expect these to be as well. The solution could be if you keep them in a certain container they are safe. Take them out in safe areas to show them off if you want. It could be a way somebody could bait attackers, walk around in the wilderness with your super rare item out in the open. :)
My point is if they are all basic weapons that have "very minimal (if any) in game mechanical effects" then isn't that really a cosmetic item, not an actual useable item?
Ala why I think it should go in a cosmetic slot, not a gear slot, and should not need to be threaded since cosmetic items (IMO) shouldn't be lootable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I might make a suggestion, there should be a place to store items/wealth safely like a bank of Abadar. That way, like these new daily deal items, players can keep them safe while they don't necessarily have the threads to keep them from being looted.
Even if there is no absolutely-safe bank, people will just put items on an alternate PC and log them out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A solution to looting could be to instead apply the items to accounts as "skins" that can be placed on a weapon, so even if your weapon is looted, you can get another weapon and place the "skin" on it again.A little immersion breaking but I was thinking the exact same thing :)
Just call it a cantrip that has one rather limited effect: to put a silver sword illusion over another slashing weapon. Owning the miniature sword, even if it's not on your person, gives you the ability to cast this cantrip. You could sell, trade, or otherwise lose possession of the tiny sword, and with it, the ability to make your weapon look like a full-sized version of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very nice update! The thing that stood out to me is the fact that this reward can actually be traded in-game. As I have said before, I have become extremely sceptical about devs being able to stick to their guns/vision and not cave in just to draw in a few more customers.
Bind on Equip, Bind on Pickup, Soulbound, No-trade, No-drop, level-restrictions: I think we have seen enough of that in the last years.
I have already seen requests for these items to become "Non-lootable"..... that is a slippery slope for sure. :) These are trophy-weapons, they will probably not be your best weapon. So in the wilderness you are probably using something better, safely threaded.
In town you may want to flaunt this reward, where it is a lot safer. And else you can always thread it. Some people might say that if they are lootable, people may never yield them because they are so rare and they do not want to loose them. Then again, that usually happens a lot to trophy stuff: gathering dust in the bank. :)
But this is a sandbox MMO, with playerdriven stuff. So I say, let them be lootable. The fact that you may actually loose it may make it even more valuable to you. The item economy in PFO is one of the core mechanics for a playerdriven sandbox.
So if you loose one, make it a personal quest for you or your guild to get it back. Hire a mercenary company to get one. Get rich and put endless bounties on the attacker who took it. Get rich and buy one back! Loosing it is not the end of the world. Think of the emergent gameplay around these items!
We will not have a million quests in this game to keep us busy, running from exclamation mark to exclamationmark; so we need this sort of stuff.
those items should be unlootable, or, auto-"threaded" erh, sewn.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A solution to looting could be to instead apply the items to accounts as "skins" that can be placed on a weapon, so even if your weapon is looted, you can get another weapon and place the "skin" on it again.A little immersion breaking but I was thinking the exact same thing :)
Completely immersion breaking. I hate, hate, hate the way games do this. It's not a "skin", it's a weapon. If your character is showing it, that's the weapon you're carrying. Same goes for armor. I'm fine with clothing you wear over your armor, but not with "cosmetic armor" that replaces the look of what you're really wearing. It doesn't make sense and it's a stupid mechanic. I highly doubt that PFO will be using this mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is brilliant! I would personally love to see the daily rewards being skins that can be put on other, more practical, weapons, and this solution is really genious!A solution to looting could be to instead apply the items to accounts as "skins" that can be placed on a weapon, so even if your weapon is looted, you can get another weapon and place the "skin" on it again.A little immersion breaking but I was thinking the exact same thing :)Just call it a cantrip that has one rather limited effect: to put a silver sword illusion over another slashing weapon. Owning the miniature sword, even if it's not on your person, gives you the ability to cast this cantrip. You could sell, trade, or otherwise lose possession of the tiny sword, and with it, the ability to make your weapon look like a full-sized version of it.
There is no way they're going to do this in a game with open pvp, thankfully. You shouldn't be deceiving other players this way and there is no logical reason to let you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A solution to looting could be to instead apply the items to accounts as "skins" that can be placed on a weapon, so even if your weapon is looted, you can get another weapon and place the "skin" on it again.A little immersion breaking but I was thinking the exact same thing :)
I thought about that as well, but I think it's better to reassure backers that they will keep their rewards without giving them unlootable weapons, which I think would probably be more unfair.
There is no way they're going to do this in a game with open pvp, thankfully. You shouldn't be deceiving other players this way and there is no logical reason to let you.[/QUITE]
Good point, however I think there are plenty of other immersion breaking/deceiving things players could do already that are just as bad if not worse. What about the player who rolls up a tiny little girl who wields a sword twice her size? Isn't that immersion breaking as well?
If you're worried about people disguising more powerful weapons with the skins, then maybe GW could consider restricting what types of skins can be applied to which types of weapons, but I think in the long run it wouldn't make too much of a difference.
I think it would be better to have rewards that can't be looted, but don't give players the advantage of unlootable weapons, which could be more abused than this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought about that as well, but I think it's better to reassure backers that they will keep their rewards without giving them unlootable weapons, which I think would probably be more unfair.Good point, however I think there are plenty of other immersion breaking/deceiving things players could do already that are just as bad if not worse. What about the player who rolls up a tiny little girl who wields a sword twice her size? Isn't that immersion breaking as well?
If you're worried about people disguising more powerful weapons with the skins, then maybe GW could consider restricting what types of skins can be applied to which types of weapons, but I think in the long run it wouldn't make too much of a difference.I think it would be better to have rewards that can't be looted, but don't give players the advantage of unlootable weapons, which could be more abused than this.
The point is then they are making special rules for items. They should not go down that path whatsoever. It costs more dev time and creates an extra mechanic that makes no sense. Before you know it we have 75% of all items becoming "unlootable". All items should act exactly the same. If the devs want to put in a safe mechanic where you can't lose the item, it can be some sort of container you carry on your person, or other types of storage. I'm even ok with allowing players to switch weapons into that container during a fight, if it's not going good for you. But any time you have the weapon out and are in unsafe territory, you are at risk of losing it.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't understand the reasoning behind making an item that is purely cosmetic as specifically noted by the devs lootable?
These are not "I win" perks. They're going to have very minimal (if any) in game mechanical effects. They're about looking cool, or showing respect for a part of the Pathfinder lore, or just letting other people know that YOU are a part of the reason the game was created and developed.
I agree with the debate that if it has stats/mechanical effects it should be lootable, but a *rare* purely cosmetic item should not be effected by game mechanics (threading, looting etc if it doesn't provide any game mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan,
I agree with Valkner, I really feel many will hold back on pledging because they don’t want the chance to lose their unique item(s), unless they decide to do so. At least for those where these Daily Deals will be a tipping factor in making a pledge.
Yes, there is risk and reward associated with the game, but what has been said multiple times is many of the items you lose can be replaceable. May not be cheap, but you can replace them.
With these Daily Deals, as the description even indicates, they are unique. Never can be bought or crafted. You lose it, it’s gone forever. I can see people getting very angry if they get ambushed and losing their unique item they will never see again. And really, it’s an option that doesn’t need to be in the game, there will still be plenty of risk and reward with other items you will be able to lose/gain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan,
I agree with Valkner, I really feel many will hold back on pledging because they don’t want the chance to lose their unique item(s), unless they decide to do so. At least for those where these Daily Deals will be a tipping factor in making a pledge.
Yes, there is risk and reward associated with the game, but what has been said multiple times is many of the items you lose can be replaceable. May not be cheap, but you can replace them.
With these Daily Deals, as the description even indicates, they are unique. Never can be bought or crafted. You lose it, it’s gone forever. I can see people getting very angry if they get ambushed and losing their unique item they will never see again. And really, it’s an option that doesn’t need to be in the game, there will still be plenty of risk and reward with other items you will be able to lose/gain.
I am absolutely positive you will have options to ensure you do not lose the item. Hopefully it is not just because the item is flagged "unlootable", but it's because you store it in a safe place (either off or on your person - possibly in a container). I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. As long as you get some type of clear warning when you receive the items and what you can do to keep them safe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think they should be inherently unlootable, but I also don't see any problem with them having a reduced thread cost; say 75% or 50% of the cost of an item with equivalent mechanical stats. That way it's easier for you to hold on to your special, unique items, but it may still come at the cost of other gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am absolutely positive you will have options to ensure you do not lose the item. Hopefully it is not just because the item is flagged "unlootable", but it's because you store it in a safe place (either off or on your person - possibly in a container). I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. As long as you get some type of clear warning when you receive the items and what you can do to keep them safe.
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Oh, I agree, I am sure you will be able to put the items in a personal storage container, bank, home, etc. and it will be safe. However, it kind of defeats the purpose of having the item if it’s always locked up. People are going to want to take it out, show it around and at times even use it.
Now I am sure many are thinking “Well, that’s the risk of the game.” But what my point is, with how unique it sounds these items will be, I think this a risk that should not be in the game. You earned this item as a reward in being an early pledger, so you should be able to use to use it without risk of loss.
Now I just want to be clear I am not mad or venting here, if it is coming across that way, I apologize. I am just expressing that I don’t feel the risk to lose these unique items is really warranted. It will not hurt the game if GW makes an exception for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The point is then they are making special rules for items. They should not go down that path whatsoever. It costs more dev time and creates an extra mechanic that makes no sense. Before you know it we have 75% of all items becoming "unlootable". All items should act exactly the same. If the devs want to put in a safe mechanic where you can't lose the item, it can be some sort of container you carry on your person, or other types of storage. I'm even ok with allowing players to switch weapons into that container during a fight, if it's not going good for you. But any time you have the weapon out and are in unsafe territory, you are at risk of losing it.
...
I don't think they'd go as far as to make 75% of items unlootable. Although, I do like the idea of a "safe container".
I think it's more of an issue of bad luck instances over anything. I'm not saying these things will happen, but I can imagine that at launch the game will more likely have more grievers than later on in the game's life (hopefully), and I know I'd be pretty sad if I created a character, which had all these perks included with it, and I happened to get hit with an assassination a few minutes into the game, therefore losing all the items I was looking forward to using. This is keeping in mind that these will be rare, possibly expensive items. Characters using these may even become targets for bandits, which could potentially make for a lot of unhappy new players.Although, back to the idea of a safety box... Maybe it could be something that takes extra time out of combat to retrieve any items from, and it could be a mechanic that even new characters start with. I think that could definitely lend some security to the game for players.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I am absolutely positive you will have options to ensure you do not lose the item. Hopefully it is not just because the item is flagged "unlootable", but it's because you store it in a safe place (either off or on your person - possibly in a container). I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. As long as you get some type of clear warning when you receive the items and what you can do to keep them safe.
How is having a *safe* container that makes the item unlootable any different then having a *cosmetic* slot (ie container) that is unlootable aside from actually getting the benefit of being able to see the item (the whole point of the items) rather than it being stuck in a bank somewhere and never being seen (defeating the whole purpose of the items)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no way they're going to do this in a game with open pvp, thankfully. You shouldn't be deceiving other players this way and there is no logical reason to let you.
Ooh, Illusionists, you hear that? Tyveil is telling you to GTFO of his game! Guess there's only 7 schools of magic now, unless he's got plans to ban Conjuration too, since it might let people make 'fake' equipment.
:P
Seriously... the idea was a way to make 'skinning' a workable in-character reality. The whole idea of players coming back from death for free is 'immersion breaking' from a regular RPG perspective, but GW made a storyline reason to make that possible in the MMO from an in-character perspective. Sufficiently advanced appeals to magic can explain any technological convention.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's more the idea of making everything "skinnable" such as what is in other MMORPG's. If you want to have an illusion spell that actually takes some effort and skill to cast, and not everyone and their brother has it, I'm ok with that. What I would not want to see is every single person having whatever weapons and armor on display that they want and actually be wielding something else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, I agree, I am sure you will be able to put the items in a personal storage container, bank, home, etc. and it will be safe. However, it kind of defeats the purpose of having the item if it’s always locked up. People are going to want to take it out, show it around and at times even use it.
Yes and it makes it that more of a status symbol if and when you actually take it out to show it off. I do think there should be some 100% safe areas, such as a highly lawful NPC town, where you could safely walk around with your items of choice on display. But in most instances you're not going to be flaunting your most rare items, as cool as they are.
Also I just saw the article about threads. Doesn't this solve the problem for you? Choose to make this item 100% safe but increase risk on your other items. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution to me that does not require some additional mechanic for special items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is the newest blog: Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves.
If these "cosmetic" items are indeed nigh useless, the threading cost will be very low. If they are close to starting equipment, the cost will be quite affordable as you gain threads.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just call it a cantrip that has one rather limited effect: to put a silver sword illusion over another slashing weapon. Owning the miniature sword, even if it's not on your person, gives you the ability to cast this cantrip. You could sell, trade, or otherwise lose possession of the tiny sword, and with it, the ability to make your weapon look like a full-sized version of it.A solution to looting could be to instead apply the items to accounts as "skins" that can be placed on a weapon, so even if your weapon is looted, you can get another weapon and place the "skin" on it again.A little immersion breaking but I was thinking the exact same thing :)
Hardly a cantrip, but transforming one weapon to look like something else is pretty much EXACTLY what the Transformative weapon special ability does in Pathfinder already. Granted, that cost 10,000gp per weapon, but it's still the same.
Completely immersion breaking. I hate, hate, hate the way games do this. It's not a "skin", it's a weapon. If your character is showing it, that's the weapon you're carrying. Same goes for armor. I'm fine with clothing you wear over your armor, but not with "cosmetic armor" that replaces the look of what you're really wearing. It doesn't make sense and it's a stupid mechanic. I highly doubt that PFO will be using this mechanic.
Having gear be able to magically change their look is immersion breaking for Pathfinder?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, that would be a good alternative for me in regards to the threading. I really like that a lot, actually. You can pick your most wanted items and make sure they are safe, but the looters will still have options on what you can’t protect with your threads.
But what I also really liked reading is being able to call on that Death Curse and how it interacts with threads. I think it’s a very good mechanic to discourage ganking/ambushes. Yes, there has always been the option to hire a bounty for those who like to assassin, but a lot of them actually revel in being wanted and even having a low reputation.
But now with the Death Curse, it actually hurts in what they can protect themselves (having less threads), and I am sure will make them think twice on just ambushing someone, especially if there are multiple Death Curses that are called out on them.
But sorry, I drifted a bit there on the thread topic. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Completely immersion breaking. I hate, hate, hate the way games do this. It's not a "skin", it's a weapon. If your character is showing it, that's the weapon you're carrying. Same goes for armor. I'm fine with clothing you wear over your armor, but not with "cosmetic armor" that replaces the look of what you're really wearing. It doesn't make sense and it's a stupid mechanic. I highly doubt that PFO will be using this mechanic.Having gear be able to magically change their look is immersion breaking for Pathfinder?
If 99% of the population is doing it, absolutely it's immersion breaking. We have everyone walking around with sticks and pigstickers when really they are wielding greatswords. I think anyone could understand how ridiculous and immersion breaking that would be. Works fine for PnP, not so great in an MMORPG. I'm sure Goblinworks will put some thought into it and make it not nearly so easy to do (if at all) as it is in the PnP version.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If 99% of the population is doing it, absolutely it's immersion breaking. We have everyone walking around with sticks and pigstickers when really they are wielding greatswords. I think anyone could understand how ridiculous and immersion breaking that would be. Works fine for PnP, not so great in an MMORPG. I'm sure Goblinworks will put some thought into it and make it not nearly so easy to do (if at all) as it is in the PnP version.
Completely immersion breaking. I hate, hate, hate the way games do this. It's not a "skin", it's a weapon. If your character is showing it, that's the weapon you're carrying. Same goes for armor. I'm fine with clothing you wear over your armor, but not with "cosmetic armor" that replaces the look of what you're really wearing. It doesn't make sense and it's a stupid mechanic. I highly doubt that PFO will be using this mechanic.Having gear be able to magically change their look is immersion breaking for Pathfinder?
Of course there would be equivalencies (as there is in almost every MMO that uses cosmetic systems). Plate armor must be made to look like plate armor, a greatsword must look like a greatsword, and so on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the daily deals are to help early supporters get acknowledgement, doesn't that loose value if they can be sold? One possibility could be to have the items revert to common items if they ever leave the possession of the early supporter. However, if the bling is really important to the player then threading is the answer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the daily deals are to help early supporters get acknowledgement, doesn't that loose value if they can be sold? One possibility could be to have the items revert to common items if they ever leave the possession of the early supporter. However, if the bling is really important to the player then threading is the answer.
No, if they can't be sold they have 0 value, other than with the account. Goblinworks "gets it" when it comes to economics and item value (finally an MMORPG company who does).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, Transformative does more than what people are asking for. Transformative actually changes the base properties of the weapon.
Right, I did say it would put an illusion over another weapon. :)
In the case of the Captain's Blade, you could use your miniature CB to place an illusion of a full-sized one over another slashing weapon of the same size. Your rusty scimitar or masterwork longsword would still produce the same combat results it always did, but the illusion would make it look like the Captain's Blade. You couldn't cast it over a greatsword because that's 2-handed, and you couldn't cast it over a club because that's bludgeoning.
I placed it at cantrip level effect because it's basically a very limited silent image.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems a waste of a good illusion spell. Would be better to make your Vorpal Sword of Uberness look like a Rusty Dagger.
*** Bandit comes at you thinking you would be an easy target with such a poor weapon but then wonders why his head is suddenly rolling on the ground and stopping to look up at his body. ***
We just posted the Daily Update to the Kickstarter and this one is a doozy!
I'm totaly not seeing anything about those dailey deals other then this
"Daily Deals Start Sunday!
The Daily Deal program we announced yesterday begins on Sunday! You must be a backer at least at the $35 Adventurer level to get the Daily Deals added to your account. Don't delay - complete sets of these items will likely be very valuable, and you only get the Daily Deals starting on the day you back the project! (All existing qualified Backers automatically get the Daily Deals, and Crowdforger Alpha backers get the Daily Deals regardless of when they pledge)."
Am I just blind?
4: Way too soon to know if these items will be lootable. A topic for future Crowdforging!Might want to decide this soon, I know there are a ton of people that won't be influenced by this new addition if they can be looted, and they won't back the project unless they know they will be able to keep the items forever unless they trade or sell them.
I would suggest making them automatically threaded, and use 50% less 'thread' when equipped than their closest equivalent item. If they are just sitting in your bag, they should use 99% less thread.
Once they leave the hands of the original owner, I would be fine with them being lootable, and not receiving reductions in 'thread' cost.
I'b be down for that, As much as i hate item loss, this also keeps the items from being exclusive so its a good compromise.