Goblin Squad Member
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So say there is a demand for between 200-500 swords a day, and once mastercrafting is implemented then it produces 20-50 swords a day... you can see my point right?You think they would need to change things by an order of magnitude often enough for that to be an issue? I expect masterwork items would get added sometime during alpha, since it's impossible to make magic items without masterwork items as a base.
I think, and this is coming from my eve experience and just a feeling, that you will see Tier 1 items (your mundane stuff) and then you get higher tier items, you have your base item and you can add something else to it to make it magical, and give it a different twist to it.
Example: Masterwork longsword of leeching.
Ingredients: Longsword, something to make it a masterwork and finally the blood of a vampire
And thus you create a masterwork longsword of leeching.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So wouldn't the optional mini-game system I proposed cover that? The project is getting done either way, but if you're there actively playing it gets done faster and with less waste.
I guessed that some form of mini-game to speed production would be the way to do it, but you still have the problem of the mini-games becoming quite repetitive after a while.
Limits on how many times you can apply a mini-game to speed up a project based on skill level might help to keep crafting from becoming a constant mini-game grind, and make casual players more competitive with hardcore crafters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And they have mentioned food, wondrous items, and other magic consumables. But until they are in the game, or more to the point, until there is a game I want to keep advocating what I want in said game.
I think they said somewhere that initially crafted buildings may not have a visual interior, (although perhaps that's out of date or I misunderstood what they meant? it seems taverns have interiors) so I don't think we'll see much furniture in the beginning, but I think later on we'll see more crafting items. They've mentioned river trade, so presumably there will be boat crafting too. (There should be eventually anyway!)
Another thing I think would be great is also something from vanguard, special crafting spots- eg to craft some special item you need to craft it in a particular place, eg a magical forge deep in a dungeon. Imagine the epic quests to get a blacksmith deep into a dungeon to use a magical forge (particularly if it's in a randomly spawned dungeon and only available briefly/has limited uses... the fighting over control of the dungeon while they try to get their smiths there before another group!)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There won't be any benefit to botting it if the player isn't required to repetitively complete the mini-game, which is why I suggest it only apply to Mastercraft items. It might be necessary to have a fairly long cooldown on crafting Mastercraft items as well.
=
If there isn't any benefit to completing the minigame with a high score/quickly/on the first try, what value does it add?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So say there is a demand for between 200-500 swords a day, and once mastercrafting is implemented then it produces 20-50 swords a day... you can see my point right?You think they would need to change things by an order of magnitude often enough for that to be an issue? I expect masterwork items would get added sometime during alpha, since it's impossible to make magic items without masterwork items as a base.
Only if you run with the tabletop mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Only if you run with the tabletop mechanics.So say there is a demand for between 200-500 swords a day, and once mastercrafting is implemented then it produces 20-50 swords a day... you can see my point right?You think they would need to change things by an order of magnitude often enough for that to be an issue? I expect masterwork items would get added sometime during alpha, since it's impossible to make magic items without masterwork items as a base.
If you can put magical enhancements on any common gear, what purpose would there be to having masterwork, then?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@All - remember that we're going to build a much, much shallower power curve than the tabletop game.
There will be lots of magical gear. But it won't be "+1" type gear. Think more like "+0.01" gear. And you'll lose it all the time, and have to replace it constantly, giving crafters lots and lots of work to do and orders to fulfill.
MMOs run on scale not magnitude.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Awesome. Magic items are pervasive, but they're not overly powerful. I like it!
Likewise, you could make more powerful items, but make them applicabable only in certain circumstances or against certain foes. For example, if they average sword is +.01, then a super powerful sword of +.05 would only work against undead (or whatever).
More items for crafters to produce as people will want more items depending one what they're doing. They also get to replace more when someone dies and they don't have all those items threaded :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Obviously masterwork magic gear is better than common magic gear.Yup. I am expecting magical gear will be very common because they need to balance gear costs of classes like monks and sorcerers with fighters and paladins. Mastercrafted would simply mean more powerful.
Masterwork just means that the base item is of exceptional quality, capable of holding magical enhancements long-term. I see no reason they couldn't divide non-magical gear quality into smaller gradations, but to make everything that enhances the quality of an item show up as 'magic' just cheapens it too much. If everything is considered magical, then the term 'magical' becomes meaningless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Obviously masterwork magic gear is better than common magic gear.Yup. I am expecting magical gear will be very common because they need to balance gear costs of classes like monks and sorcerers with fighters and paladins. Mastercrafted would simply mean more powerful.Masterwork just means that the base item is of exceptional quality, capable of holding magical enhancements long-term. I see no reason they couldn't divide non-magical gear quality into smaller gradations, but to make everything that enhances the quality of an item show up as 'magic' just cheapens it too much. If everything is considered magical, then the term 'magical' becomes meaningless.
Eh... I could swing either way on this one. I don't see how you can call handwrappings that make your unarmed attacks do more damage or robes that grant you more spells anything but magical... But I can see where you would want to preserve the magic title so every level 0 monk isn't running around decked out in "magical" gear.
Really just a name either way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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personally, I liked Everquest 1's craft system.... chance for failure, and the 'you need to figure out the recipes yourselves' made lots of fun - especially the 6 months after cinnamon sticks started dropping for foragers and no one could figure out the recipe for Pixie flavored cinnesticks...Half the fun was being the first to figure out what the newest resource was used for
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see how you can call handwrappings that make your unarmed attacks do more damage or robes that grant you more spells anything but magical.
Hand wrappings have uses in the real (non-magical) world, even if it's not going to cause more damage, it protects the hands well enough to allow a little more power or freedom in hit location. I mean, hitting someone in the teeth is a great way to risk cutting tendons in your hands, but a decent leather glove can generally alleviate that risk.
Getting bonus spells does seem a lot more significant than a +0.01 bonus, but the whole sorcerer class is based on being innately magical. Gear that helps them regenerate mana a tiny bit faster may appropriately be called magical, but that's in-theme for the class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well the +.001 sword could be called a +1 sword but just have the mechanics between a +1 and a +5 sword not be too much. thats fine for me. I do think that making sure the power curve does not get really stupid is very very important, however somethings such as maybe holy avenger or something similar need to last longer than throw away. At the same time they should be very rare (capped crafting skills, ultra rare components).
The question i have for you Ryan is this. If i play a paladin, will i be able to craft magical gear or am i going to have to find a wizard to do it for me?
My hope is they'll implement things like research and resource optimization useage for crafting to make crafting more interesting in the long run.
Even things like shop management, home/shop decor etc could all potentially fall under the non-adventure roll and I've seen these be popular play styles for the non-adventuring type of players.
IE look at Entertainer and similar non-adventure *classes* in SWG.
Loved how SWG handled crafting, guaranteed no two items where alike unless you made a manufacturing schematic. you could experiment to adjust item stats and use multiple materials to do the same, true custom crafting, i hope PFO has something similar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you differentiate between a good player and an excellent bot?Can anyone design a minigame that is nontrivial for a well-designed bot to handle?Such "well-designed bots" should lead to a banhamer on the accounts caught using them.
Usually the player will respond to DM questions.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Usually the player will respond to DM questions.Can you differentiate between a good player and an excellent bot?Can anyone design a minigame that is nontrivial for a well-designed bot to handle?Such "well-designed bots" should lead to a banhamer on the accounts caught using them.
An excellent bot is attended.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then what's the point of the bot?To avoid the tedium. Usually the player is reading a book, or surfing the internet while watching the bot occasionally to see if there's a /tell.
Or just to avoid carpal tunnel inflammation, or to work around a disability.
Macroing, botting, and automation
No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world.Corollary:
Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun.
I'm not exactly quoting these things as if they were some kind of scripture, but most of these insights were compiled prior to Ultima Online, and were gleaned from MUD design.
I think fully-unattended macroing/botting goes against the primary design goal of PFO -- to promote meaningful player interaction -- but as long as someone is able to interact socially, we shouldn't worry about botting. Training time clicks by whether you're online or not, and we should hope that earning badges is exciting and varied enough that people won't want to bot that part. Make it fun and people will want to be as involved as they can be.
To bring this back to crafting: custom-crafting a masterwork item is a good way to earn a badge, but grinding through 100 basic items is not. Instead of worrying about people being able to 'bot' the grind, just acknowledge that working on an assembly line is a grind and turn that type of work over to the 'common folk' NPC's that come with the craft shop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please allow crafting of golems (perhaps as their own skill line). Golems could take major resources and time to build. they could act as very powerful (depending on the type) NPC guards for settlements and the new large scale gathering operations. Also allow them to be used in seiges. Perhaps allow the less powerful ones to be used as controllable pets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh yeah I fully intend to have my tower guarded by golems I created and outsiders I summoned and bound. You think all those traps and guards were protecting that gem the size of a gnome, nope buddy they were protecting the outside world from that balor I bound inside that gem. Enjoy you little thief! >:)
But really I hope their is room for custom items. A flexible crafting system that will allow you to place a number of enchantments on items would be good. Granted not only would the cost increase as a result but the difficulty as well. Maybe throw in a very very small chance of creating exceptional items, these could be legendary items with rare or unique effects. Of course only equally legendary craftsmen would have the chance of creating them. Sure would place alot of demand on the crafters skills as well as keep the adventuring types invested in promoting craftsmen.
I have not seen much of EVE's crafting system, PFO seems to be borrowing liberally from eve in several regards and that is cool. I never could get into eve, i found the space combat far to slow and boring, much like star trek online, so i was imediately put off by it, but i always did want to check out the crafting in it..
I did how ever play star wars galaxies extensively, and from what i have read about eve's crafting system and the planed system for PFO they are very similar to star wars galaxies in the sens you load up your materials, you select what you want to craft, and you pick it up at a later date, what i have not heard is do they intend to let us have a way to experiment with what we craft to adjust the finished product? i know supposedly special materials will modify it but top what extent? I want some a little more detailed and in depth.
The way it worked in galaxies is you wanted to make a knife, you selected your metal, you loaded it in your crafting tool, you named your item, you then clicked experiment, and you had several points, amount dependent on your skill in the artisan class and its advanced classes, to work with, you could increase the knifes durability its speed, its damage, its weight, and then you produced your final product, a prototype or a manufacturing schematic. Will we be seeing that kind of detail in PFO with making items? I found it to be incredibly experimenting to create the perfect items possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I quite agree with Darsch. I would love to see PFO use a few ideas from SWG, pre NGE. The ability to adjust the materials, take extra time, and modify tthe schematic to achieve new, improved results in the final product and then having your character's name attached to that product allows a person to establish a reputation.
I would love to see something like this. I love spending my time crafting the best product I can in a game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe throw in a very very small chance of creating exceptional items, these could be legendary items with rare or unique effects. Of course only equally legendary craftsmen would have the chance of creating them. Sure would place a lot of demand on the crafters skills as well as keep the adventuring types invested in promoting craftsmen.
I'm all for being able to customize and experiment with the materials and skills available, but not random bonuses, no. That turns the crafting system from the foundation of the economy into a lottery. If one sword in a thousand is just better for no reason, then the other 999 are devalued, and crafting becomes a matter of matching your grind tolerance against a random number generator.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for being able to customize and experiment with the materials and skills available, but not random bonuses, no. That turns the crafting system from the foundation of the economy into a lottery. If one sword in a thousand is just better for no reason, then the other 999 are devalued, and crafting becomes a matter of matching your grind tolerance against a random number generator.
I think you misunderstood me or I did not explain myself enough. When I mean a small chance of creating an exceptional item by legendary craftsman. I mean you have no chance unless said skill is maxed. If a craftsman maxes his swordcrafting skill, then let him have a chance at creating what could very well be for a time the most powerful/unique sword in the river kingdoms.
This would not encourage grinding or devalue other items of the same type. Sense the craftsman hit the limit already and the item is unattainable to lower levels. On top of that high level crafting already has steep resource requirements, for someone to grind at max skill level they would drain all their resources, they would need to grind multiple resources for only a few tries. I would think items, more so the powerful ones would need certain requirements as well which in turn could only be met by a select number of people. If you really wanted to restrict these unique items (depending on their power) have the requirement be the cap ability of a class.
The items could also have a number of effects on the game world, like start a bidding war on the market which would likely involve groups (nations) rather then a single person. If the desire for the item is high enough you could even have wars over it or even be targeted by a thieves guild.
Personally I like the possibilities of such an item popping up. ;3
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for being able to customize and experiment with the materials and skills available, but not random bonuses, no. That turns the crafting system from the foundation of the economy into a lottery. If one sword in a thousand is just better for no reason, then the other 999 are devalued, and crafting becomes a matter of matching your grind tolerance against a random number generator.chance...chance...chance...
On top of that high level crafting already has steep resource requirements, for someone to grind at max skill level they would drain all their resources, they would need to grind multiple resources for only a few tries.
No, I understand you, but you apparently don't understand my point. It would indeed devalue all the normal items and create a grind where someone has to make tons of them in order to keep trying for that winning lottery ticket.
It should be: same skill + same materials + same process = same results.
There could be plenty of hidden recipes, and thousands of ways to combine weapon effects, but the results of crafting should not be random in any way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I despise random results in crafting. I want to make what I set out to make, precisely. If I'm making a Sword that does X damage, I do not want to end up with a Sword that does X + 1 damage.
I don't mind random complications that have to be dealt with, or even a random chance of failure. But random bonuses, no matter how rare or how slight, will absolutely encourage grinding and will devalue the items that don't have the bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the resource system for PFO isn't being considered. Resource A has to be found (location changes even hexes at times once played out), gathered while deploying a operation, which must be defended from monsters (as well as players), then transported back to a settlement (again at risk of attack), at which point may or may not be used in crafting. Sense that resource may need to be refined or combined with another. Thats how it is to get one resource. To make things sort. The system in place goes against grinding. If someone can explain to me a method of grinding with this system I would like to hear it. Honestly I do not see it (I reserve the right of correct myself due to holiday haze). The gathering process is too time consuming with additional challanges then "triditional" types. You can not camp a location or rapid gather. The crafting itself is also time consuming.
Anyway the problem with no chance of exceptional or unique items is that everyone will get the same thing. I have seen it in many MMO's. Certain builds or gear sets get tagged as the best and you have clones running around. This also means that a craftsman just has to mass produce said tagged gear and thats all they focus on. Everything else gets ignored or placed on the backburner sense their is no demand or profit in it.
I think in PFO their should be some people with unique gear that can not be copied. Letting the greatest of their crafts have the ability to create something original seems fine to me and in line with the game that PFO is trying to be. But what do I know, always end up making my own stuff it seems. ;P
OmniChaos you avoid the everyone getting the same thing by removing the random number generator, and instead allow the player to experiment with different materials ( that have tjhier own randomly generated stats everytime they are spawned), different sub componets made of said materials, and giving the player a set number of points to experiment on the item being created before finalizing, and have the RNG come into crafting at that point to determine if the experimentation was a success or not. Your level in the class determines how often you succeed in experimenting and how often you fail, and by what degrees, as well as how many points you get to modify your product by. Honestly this is the absolute best way to have a true player crafter driven economy and have the OMG WTF once in a life time crafting of exceptionally amazing equipment like you want to see.
i rtealy am terrible of explaining this, i might just have to make a video of the entire process from swgEMU to really explain this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyway the problem with no chance of exceptional or unique items is that everyone will get the same thing.
I think one of the coolest things about PFO's crafting/gear system is that weapons (for example) won't be differentiated by which bonuses they have, but rather by which Keywords they have, which controls which abilities they can be used for. I expect there to be a dizzying area of variety when it comes to crafted gear.
As for the grinding, I think what we're trying to say is that as long as I know there's a small chance I can get an "exceptional" Sword when I craft, I am going to have a very strong incentive to keep crafting Swords until I get the exceptional one, because that's the one that will sell better. Organized groups will be able to quickly harvest large quantities of resources, and if the game system is set up to encourage those groups to trash 999 out of every 1,000 swords they make, then that's exactly what they'll do.
I think in PFO their should be some people with unique gear that can not be copied.
I agree, and think that's a really cool idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Darsch
I await your simple explaination. Still seeing alot of green and red, have this jingle bells ringing in my ears too. xP
@Nihimon
Yeah flooding the market with high level swords or wasting resources for a less then .01% chance at something. I call that insanity, but I would not mind getting said high level sword cheap and seeing a foolish craftsman render himself broke in the effort. Happens to gamblers and stock traders all I time. I say let it happen in PFO too. But really as long as their is some system for original gear for the maxed craftsmen I would be happy, as well as invite them over to my guild. Come to us @.@
@Darsch
I await your simple explaination. Still seeing alot of green and red, have this jingle bells ringing in my ears too. xP@Nihimon
Yeah flooding the market with high level swords or wasting resources for a less then .01% chance at something. I call that insanity, but I would not mind getting said high level sword cheap and seeing a foolish craftsman render himself broke in the effort. Happens to gamblers and stock traders all I time. I say let it happen in PFO too. But really as long as their is some system for original gear for the maxed craftsmen I would be happy, as well as invite them over to my guild. Come to us @.@
tried to find a video showcasing exactly what i mean and non where around so i am just going to have to make one, its going to take me sometime though as i have never done this before.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OmniChaos:
You're just talking about making the treadmill steeper and faster, not addressing the fact that being on it takes ever-increasing effort just to remain in the same place. A person can easily spend all of their money buying lottery tickets. You don't get to retrospectively call them wise if they happen to win, they're just a richer fool instead of a poorer one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
I disagree, if the chance is low enough then their is no point actively going for it. It should be a by product of those that practice their craft extensively. There is also the chance no one will buy it, price is too high or they could choose to take it by a number of ways. PFO allows the ability to steal from or threaten players. Having such an item (not being threaded and so bound to the player) would make you a huge target. Which is why it could add to the game. Would not be the first time a powerful item was the reason for strife.
Really if that system bugs you then just make the resources needed exceptionally rare instead for these unique items. Could even be the reward at the end of high level dungeons. The only problem I see with that system is that you would need to experiment and risk the lost of that resource for no gain. With that system it could very well never be a single unique item crafted simply because the right combination would need to be found.
I would like to wish Darsch good luck, as I really would like to see a system for those unique items sense a chance system is so disliked. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, a randomized system is disliked because it takes power from the players and hands it over to a random number generator.
If I forge a blade with the same process, the same materials, and the same skills, it should come out generally the same as it did every other time I used those exact variables. If that doesn't happen, then no experimentation can really be valid. Without valid experimentation, we can't really know anything, and there's no fundamental difference between a reasoned approach and a superstitious one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
I have pointed out a number of times that it would only be subject to the maxed skill types and be a small chance. Effectively being nonexistent to all others. It does not effect experimentation because of the fact its so small a chance. You create 10/100/1000/10000 item A's and one is slightly better then thats the exception not the rule, if you even manage to hit that chance. Machines are perfect at creating the same thing repeatedly, people are not so personally I think this type of game should reflect that. If you can fail to craft something then you should be able to excel at it as well. If only for the sake of balance that it be restricted in curtain ways. I am sure improved expertise will be reflected in shorter crafting times but still.
@DeciusBrutus
I would think that normal gear will be buyable from NPCs. These of course would be bare bones and crafted items would be better by a good margin. I mean you need at least a dagger/axe/sword to fight off even rats. Basic gear should be at the starting settlements. If it was stated somewhere that this is untrue, correct me and steer me to it. Would kinda make starting out a bit hellish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Machines are perfect at creating the same thing repeatedly, people are not so personally I think this type of game should reflect that. If you can fail to craft something then you should be able to excel at it as well...
People are machines... amazingly complex machines mostly made of carbon and water.
There is no excellence in flipping a coin.|
Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
Thats a philosophical view and another discussion unrelated to this. Also flipping a coin is 50% which is alot more likely then below 1%, which while in a perfect world would be less then 1 out of 100. In games, more so MMO's in my exp, could very well be a more staggering number. Luck plays a real role, anyone who has crafted in MMO's knows what I mean. That random generator is often suspected of evil and sometimes it is the truth. xP
I have a sneaking suspicion mods may play a role in that or very well could. ;)