Hey there,
What level should I get my party of 8 up to before I let them take on a CR 15 Nosferatu cleric? I want it to be a challenge for them to fight him, but I don't want a TPK, either. I can totally add in minions to the fight (and he has shadow summoning powers, too), so I can always boost him a bit if its starting to look too easy.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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Party level +3 for a single monster is all I ever do as GM (any thing more has the abilty to one shot PC). But I add tons of minions, use terrian, per buff extra. If montser did not scream Desecrate I do not know what dose.
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APL+3 is the general rule. Your party is large, so its apl9 atm. I would say 2 more levels assuming they have gear that can manage the enemy. Due to action econ its probably better to make the encounter happen higher level than that and add some minions so the party actions aren't just nova on the BBEG killing him in 1-2 rounds.
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Really hard to say. The game's CR system is built around 4-5 man groups. If you have six or more, add 1 to their APL. The "epic" level challenge is CR = APL + 3. So in theory, the level for each character should be 11. But I'd be hesitant to give 8 level 11 characters a CR 15 encounter of a single cleric and consider it to be very difficult.
Assuming you're doing 20 point buy and have followed standard wealth guidelines, I'd go ahead and throw in some minions in the mix. I'd have a couple of summon monster spells (the highest the cleric can cast) precast before the fight. I'd also have him fully buffed up and ready to rumble.
Thanks for all of the quick responses!
8 players is a lot, unless they are just completely one dimensional they should have every aspect of the game covered and then some.
Also it depends on the skill of the players in the game and their ability to make characters.
If they are just kind of average: Level 11
If they kind of suck at it: 12 or 13
If they are the kind that know how to twink out characters: 9
Really hard to say. The game's CR system is built around 4-5 man groups. If you have six or more, add 1 to their APL. The "epic" level challenge is CR = APL + 3. So in theory, the level for each character should be 11. But I'd be hesitant to give 8 level 11 characters a CR 15 encounter of a single cleric and consider it to be very difficult.
Assuming you're doing 20 point buy and have followed standard wealth guidelines, I'd go ahead and throw in some minions in the mix. I'd have a couple of summon monster spells (the highest the cleric can cast) precast before the fight. I'd also have him fully buffed up and ready to rumble.
I'm sure that this totally changes the answers, sorry.
I actually should have been more specific: its 4 players, and 4 NPCs that I've built with PC classes but without the PC gear. Their tactics will be dependent on my roleplaying them; they're basically four villagers used to hunting werewolves and vampires heading into the spooky castle with my group. The players playing have either neither played before, or haven't played in 20 years.
Basically, they're 7th level now, and have really been harassing the Urgathoians (two of them are Pharasmians, one is a Gozrehian priestess).
They were exploring a ruined Urgathoian camp, and they found a copy of Serving Your Hunger, which makes mention of her heralds. They did some research, made some good religion/history/local checks, and now they know where Count Orlix, the shadow-summoning, Nosferatu cleric of Urgathoa lives, and they want to kick his door in and take him out. I've built some villagers nearby that want in on it too for reasons so that it can be a high-level encounter without them needing to be too high level themselves (I don't want to say no to their chutzpah).
The difficulty I'm having is making sure that its a difficult and memorable battle with a god's herald, but without accidentally TPK'ing the poor audacious fools. If they want to get on the Pallid Princess' radar, who am I to say no? :)
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Make two groups of 4 and run separate games for two groups where every player gets more spotlight time and GM time is saved by running and building adventures closer to baseline assumption.
It's not that long a thread man. Read to the end.
In a solo fight, give that cleric double health minimum. 8 standard actions to every one of his means he dies quickly.
Make two groups of 4 and run separate games for two groups where every player gets more spotlight time and GM time is saved by running and building adventures closer to baseline assumption.It's not that long a thread man. Read to the end.
In a solo fight, give that cleric double health minimum. 8 standard actions to every one of his means he dies quickly.
Good point! Even if he's stronger, he still gets less turns...maybe a constant haste to get more turns, and double max hp. That on top of his shadow minions, castle minions, and maybe even a "round 2" form recalling Castlevania, it should be a tough fight even if he's only 3 levels stronger than they are.
The castle itself will be a deathtrap - flying medusa heads EVERYWERE
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Be very careful about balancing this by the numbers - I think the book advice tends to be wrong. Large groups have the potential to trivialize encounters, but trying to make a difficult encounter out of a single opponent for a large group too often will end up with a monster that is killing PCs frequently. The classic difficulty is an opponent that is untouchable and deals too much damage. Making sure his AC / Saves / SR aren't unbeatable, and his damage to an individual PC isn't too lethal.
My advice is to get them at closer to base line in terms of level (11th perhaps), give the enemy plenty of minions to thin the group out, and perhaps apply double hit points to the opponent.
You might take a look at a group of lower CR monsters against a higher CR opponent for an idea of what the gap will likely be. Take a look at, for instance, 8 hound archons vs. a single CR 10 opponent and you will begin to understand the difficulty.
Best of luck - large groups are a nightmare.
Agree with Peter Stewart above. Large PC group means two things in general. They'll likely slaughter many a single foe/BBEG even if it's well over their APL but at the same time every action by the BBEG is a serious risk to an individual character. The real trick is not avoiding a TPK but to avoid wiping a PC or three with the few of actions the BBEG does get off before being overwhelmed by the party's numbers (of actions).
Since you have 4 npcs the trick will come down to nailing npcs rather than pcs without leaving the pcs with the impression they aren't at risk and or giving the BBEG minions to split up and absorb the party's actions again without obviously aiming at npcs over pcs
Beware of certain spells as well ... Blasphemy, for example, can become seriously dangerous the wider the level spread between caster and targets. You could end up with most, if not all, of an entire 10th level party paralyzed for minutes (as well as weakened and dazed) by one well placed 15th level Blasphemy (even moreso if said Nosferatu cleric has any kind of caster level buff or a hard hitting save DC).
Awesome ideas! I really appreciate everyone's input.
I hadn't thought about Blasphemy...I can have him cast it, paralyze them, and gloat/drain an NPC dry while the others are forced to watch, cranking up the danger a bit for them.
I don't have my heart set on these NPCs surviving - I'm only adding them to give the party a little extra buffer. If one or two of the NPCs die on the way there in the deathtrap of a castle, or die in battle, so be it (obviously not so for my PCs; it ruins the fun for them if I have it out for them). Some of the PCs might die on the way to/during the fight, but I could focus a bit more of the damage towards the NPCs so that its not all power-rushing the PCs to death.
I'm also drafting up some dire bats and other minions, maybe the reanimated corpses of those brave warriors who've failed to fell this vile herald of the Pallid Princess over the centuries. He also summons greater shadows to fight with him, and I'm going to flavor his mage hand shots and telekinesis as using the shadows to push them around.