As my party goes through the Carrion Crown campaign, a question has arisen as to sale values of loot. Obviously gear and magic sells generally for 50% of value (potentially modified a bit based on local conditions or skill rolls). I think it is also clear that gems and jewelry sell for 100% of value, I think on the theory that those items are easily transportable and exchangeable, so they have as much value as money itself. But what about fine arts items? For example, "a Ebony Tribal Mask from Mwangi Expanse - 175 gp" or "Silver Torc from Land of the Linnorm Kings - 200 gp." One of my PCs who knows the rules well is quite confident that those should sell at 100% value, based on an elaborate chain of logic it isn't worth going into.
Logically, I think fine art items should only sell at 50% value unless the PCs take time to sell directly to a collector. If they are selling it quickly, they will need to sell to someone who is going to re-sell it, much as would be the case in selling magic or gear.
However, I don't know what is contemplated by Paizo when they put such items into an AP. I don't want to be shortchanging my PCs by giving them only half value when the author contemplated that the items could be sold for full value.
Thanks for your help!
This is a GM call. Your GM could even run an auction if they wanted. In general the game assumes that other than commodity items (beans, coins, jewels) you only get 50% of the value, so I think the standard developer response to this question would be "50%". But it's a GM call in the end.
I'm the GM, so I'll be deciding. But do any of you know where it says that you only get 50% value on something like fine arts items? If that's RAW, I'm happy to stick with it.
I'm the GM, so I'll be deciding. But do any of you know where it says that you only get 50% value on something like fine arts items? If that's RAW, I'm happy to stick with it.
RAW pretty much says that other than coins, jewels and commodities it's 50%. Commodities are things like rice, beans, salt, etc. Fungible stuff that is used as barter extensively in many economies even today.
I don't think RAW specifically covers fine arts. You can do a search on the PF content if you want.
We went through a module where our party recovered a huge amount of fine art items. Our group decided to locate the actual owners and settled for a rather paltry reward.
As the GM I would probably use this as an opportunity to adjust the party's wealth by level status to be sure it's more or less in line with expectations.
Art is tricky because you have to find someone who's *willing* to pay the appraised value for it -- often hard to do not in a metropolitan area, such as Caliphas. As a gm and player, I've always handled jewelry and gems as similar to currency (10% of value) which has worked out just fine. Perhaps just stating that you'll loose a significant percentage of the sale if an art object is not sold in a capital sized city would be enough?
I guess this is the only rule guidance? "In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items. Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself." If no one knows a different rule, I guess I'll go with that and rule that fine art can only be sold at 50%, unless special efforts are made. I guess I'll assume that is what the AP contemplated, although looking at the wealth by level status is a good idea.
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The value you give the PC's with a successful appraise skill check should be roughly what the PC's can get for that item.
Fine art items fall under the same category as gems and coins mechanically. Saying the PC's fine 'X' amount of gold gets boring after a while so maybe they find a gem encrusted scabbard or a set of oil paintings. Your just giving interesting details to the treasure hoard. In an AP the price listed is the price the PC's should get (again roughly) for those items.
As an aside, fine art items have no 'list' value so the rule about selling things for half it's listed price wouldn't apply anyway.
If the fine art is being recovered from evil-doers, a truly lawful and/or good character should make an attempt to locate the actual owner and return it.
Just my $.02...
The value you give the PC's with a successful appraise skill check should be roughly what the PC's can get for that item.
Fine art items fall under the same category as gems and coins mechanically. Saying the PC's fine 'X' amount of gold gets boring after a while so maybe they find a gem encrusted scabbard or a set of oil paintings. Your just giving interesting details to the treasure hoard. In an AP the price listed is the price the PC's should get (again roughly) for those items.
As an aside, fine art items have no 'list' value so the rule about selling things for half it's listed price wouldn't apply anyway.
I see people asserting this position, but where's the support in the rules for it? It may make some meta-game logic (in terms of how you construct a treasure horde), but it is illogical in game -- that is, without special effort fine art would sell like a magic item, to someone who is going to re-sell it to a collector at a later date. It seems like a rule to the contrary should be pretty clear and I haven't seen any references to the rules supporting that view.
I don't think it's a DM call. I think the writers of APs are working on one set of assumptions or another, and that's the same set a DM running that AP should be using.
It matters less in Kingmaker where you'll have random encounters confounding the mess, but in an AP where a chapter consists of set encounters, using a method different from the designer is going to cause your PCs to have either too much or too little wealth.
Anyway, I've always run art objects as selling at 100%.
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I see people asserting this position, but where's the support in the rules for it? It may make some meta-game logic (in terms of how you construct a treasure horde), but it is illogical in game -- that is, without special effort fine art would sell like a magic item, to someone who is going to re-sell it to a collector at a later date. It seems like a rule to the contrary should be pretty clear and I haven't seen any references to the rules supporting that view.
I'm correct by the rules. I emboldened specifically what I was talking about.
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Things aren't sold for half-value, they are sold for half their listed value. Fine Art, Gems, Jewelry and the like don't exist on any kind of table for their value to be halved from. That's straight up by the rules as written. If there was some table somewhere that actually listed say, "Ruby 50gp" then certainly it would be sold for half, but no such table exists.
As an aside, what exactly would be gained by telling the PC's that everything is worth twice as much as it is really worth if they make their appraise checks? It seems plausible for some things to be halved due to how many say, daggers or suits of leather armour a typical adventurer might come across but not for the 1 gem encrusted music box they'll ever find. Also that would raise a question on how much certain spells would cost to have NPC's cast for the party. If everything single bit of non-coin treasure was half-valued for PC to NPC transactions wouldn't that technically make Raise Dead cost 10,000 gold in diamond dust given said NPC would only value 5,000gp worth of dust at 2,500 gp?
You should also keep in mind that adventurers are ADVENTURERS and not art dealers.
Unless they were willing to set up a studio to display the fine art at retail prices they most likely would be dealing with a middleman who in turn wants his cut of the profits.
Watch any given episode of "Pawn Stars" and you will see, people get offered 50% of the items worth on a fairly regular basis, with some haggling a bit more.
I think the 50% comes from the fact that most adventurers really just want the money and are looking to sell and move on.
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I personally enjoy using items you get in a treasure horde as part of a crafting component for an item. That torc could become a Torc of Natural Armor, in which case I would allow its full price to be part of the cost to create the item (A relatively minor discount, but a very cool RP bonus). Otherwise, sell it for 50% of its worth.
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Usually, they're listed as "a silver widget worth 50 gp," for instance. I let players sell that silver widget for 50 gp. It would only be in truly exceptional cases that 100% sale, vice 50% sale, of art objects would break average treasure per encounter or WBL. So however you want to play it, but I tend to err on the side of the players.
If you really want to turn on Hardcore Mode, make players Appraise every art object they find, then have any potential buyer Appraise it as well. The buyer should expect to pay half of what their Appraise check determines the item is worth. The players might expect to receive 100% of what their Appraise check determines the item is worth. So both parties might have different determinations of its value, and they must resolve it with Diplomacy or Bluff. Or perhaps they luck up, the buyer blows his Appraise check and vastly overestimates the item's value. Or they could try to Bluff and sell it to a particularly gullible buyer for more than they believe it's worth.
Personally, I'd just handwave all that butt pain and let them sell it for 100%.
I don't know about Carrion Crown but I'm running Serpent's Skull and in that one there are also a couple of fine arts objects. Usually it says something like "these delicate carvings are worth 50 gp but might be worth up to 500 gp to a collector of such objects."
So as a GM I would rule in that spirit: estimate the value of the actual materials being used (probably not much) and use that as a baseline, if the PCs put some roleplaying effort in it let them find a buyer for the listed price.
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In one AP the PC find the gem encrusted throne of a historical figure. The listed value is low (something like 500 gp from what I recall), appropriate for the composition but nothing more.
They did take the time to haul it to a metropolis, document his provenance and sell it through an auction house.
Several months later they did received the profit from the sale from the action house, around 10.000 gp after the deduction of the house percentage.
As Morgen say when a non standard item has a value listed in the adventure description it should be the value at which it is sold, not twice that. The only problems is that there is no guarantee that all the authors follow that principle.
Taking extra steps should allow the PC to get more money for really exceptional items.
The best way to be sure of what principle is followed by most AP and adventure authors is to ask JJ.
I try to stay away from too much fine art as treasure for just that reason, but would treat it similar to gems and jewelry and give them 80% of the value. DM call really. Depends on the campaign. How much money do you want them to have?
I've let the PCs sell them at 100% the value (Kingmaker campaign), since that seems to be the intent of how it's written.
My rule of thumb is, if there's no mechanical value to keeping it, the listed value is what it sells for.
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In Ultimate Equipment, Table 7.5 (Art objects) says they can generally be traded for full value, same as gemstones. Jewelry is included in the gemstones table
I think it is also clear that gems and jewelry sell for 100% of value, I think on the theory that those items are easily transportable and exchangeable, so they have as much value as money itself.
No, that's not "clear". The value of gems or jewelry is heavily based on appraisal and subjective opinions. The same can also be said of fine art objects. Watch the "Anitques Roadshow" type shows to see that often people have no idea how much something is worth. . . and that includes gems and jewelry.
The correct answer is:
Selling Treasure
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
The *only* exception for half listed price rule is the trade goods list (cows, pounds of wheat, square yard of silk, etc).
I'm correct by the rules.
Not really. You've made an interesting interpretation of them, though.
"Silver Torc from Land of the Linnorm Kings - 200 gp."
Listed price = 200 gp. (Yes, it is "listed" right there.) Sell for half by the rules.
(Not that I'm necessarily advocating for that. The OP's suggested methodology - "fine art items should only sell at 50% value unless the PCs take time to sell directly to a collector" - looks to be reasonable and likely one of the better methods of handling art objects.)
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Art objects can usually be bought or sold for their base price, and are sometimes used as currency.
Done. No interpretation needed.
My take is that if it says "an XYZ worth 50 gp", that's what it's worth to the PCs when they sell it, not what it's worth to some hypothetical store owner who's selling it.
Art objects can usually be bought or sold for their base price, and are sometimes used as currency.Done. No interpretation needed.
/thread.
Art objects can usually be bought or sold for their base price, and are sometimes used as currency.Done. No interpretation needed.
That's a direct change of 3.X rules. Interesting. . . .
/thread.Art objects can usually be bought or sold for their base price, and are sometimes used as currency.Done. No interpretation needed.
We can still discuss the amusing image of a fighter trading in two Rembrandts for a +2 flaming longsword.
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Here's James Jacobs' answer to your question:
Art objects, gemtsones, and other monetary treasures resell for full price. Only magic items, equipment, and the like resells for half price.A question about art objects and other similar items found in treasure troves in the published adventures.
The listed value is the normal sell price or the maximum value of the item and it is usually sold for half that?
As an example the famous succubus statuettes found in several AP.I generally take the listed price as what can be gained selling the item on the general market, while trying to sell it through an action house or to a interested buyer can net much more. As that kind of sale require time and the right contacts it generally it would become trading time for extra cash.
That does presuppose that one is using the UE in the first place. I find that these later books have a tendency to alter the Core Rules, but for the purpose of this disussions I will conceed the rule RAW. However, Rule 0 always allows a DM to rule any manner they find appropriate for their campaign. I will restore full value for my players.
That does presuppose that one is using the UE in the first place. I find that these later books have a tendency to alter the Core Rules, but for the purpose of this disussions I will conceed the rule RAW. However, Rule 0 always allows a DM to rule any manner they find appropriate for their campaign. I will restore full value for my players.
Why both invoking rule 0 on the rule forum? As the DM, of course you can decide whatever the heck you want.
And what do you mean 'restore full value'? By RAW art objects are valued at full when sold.
Art objects can usually be bought or sold for their base price, and are sometimes used as currency.Done. No interpretation needed.
Thanks, all. I'm willing to go with that RAW. It doesn't make sense that unwieldy art objects are as easy to liquidate as gems and jewelry, but it's a game, not reality. I guess what I'll tell myself is that the listed value is the minimum worth, and the patient art dealer will see a profit after paying the PCs the listed value. I'll probably still not give my PCs 100% if they aren't selling in a city, but it looks like that's not RAW, at least as of the publication of Ultimate Equipment.
What you say makes sense, LazarX, but if you read earlier in the thread, you'll see that Ultimate Equipment indicates RAW is to the contrary.
What you say makes sense, LazarX, but if you read earlier in the thread, you'll see that Ultimate Equipment indicates RAW is to the contrary.So what? If you want nothing but RAW answers don't waste our time and look it up yourself. Unlike many here, I don't treat RAW text as holy writ. This isn't a PFS situation as in those cases, scenarios spell out what you get at the end of a session, so it's not a Mike Brock call, but an individual GM call.
I keep hearing calls for "Old School Gaming". I think I finally figured out what "old school gaming really was". It was that time that a GM didn't allow a player to override what he considered a sensible game ruling by some player beating him over the head with RAW text.
RAW text can be wrong. Check the Advance Players's Guide staves and you'll see that section is completely wrong on price and that has been erratted.
To be fair, he didn't know about the RAW and came to the Rules section to find out the RAW. Now that he knows, it's really up to him at this point and he could take it to the Advice section for anything 'Rule 0' related.
That said, Rule 0 is built into selling art Voomer. Read this from UE
The following tables list art objects of value in a traditional fantasy campaign. In some cases, the listed price represents only the typical value of an item; it may have a higher value to a buyer who knows its origin or is descended from the original owner. For example, a painting of a historical queen may fetch a decent price in her home country, but it sells for much more if brought to an agent of the royal family. Likewise, a silver baby rattle is worth a certain amount as a curiosity or plaything for a wealthy merchant’s son, but a historian might recognize markings on it that indicate it belonged to an infant prince who was killed in a succession war, and pay a higher price for it. In this way, an art object may easily be used as a plot hook.
So in the end, you as the GM have final say on the price of the item. In fact, you can make them the central focus of an adventure, or a good plot hook to another adventure. Enjoy.
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The assumption for art being sold at the full price listed is to keep things in line with appropriate WBL. AP's in particular assume the party will have a given amount of wealth available at a given point in the adventure. Art sells for the amount noted because they're just subbing it in in place of boring old gold pieces. There's the unwritten assumption that what that item is worth to the PC's is probably different than what that item is worth to Joe the Art Dealer, in whose hands that piece will eventually end up.
I actually really like art and jewelry as treasure. Generally easier to store (mostly in the case of jewelry) and can be used as awesome story hooks for other adventures with even greater rewards. Maybe that brooch you found in a ruins actually belongs to a long-lost line of royalty and now you can try and restore (or pretend to be) the line, or maybe that painting is really a "phylactery" to a certain Dorian Gray-esque character that now wants it back at any cost. Leaves a lot of room for cool stuff.
Aren't Jewelry and Art Objects on the Trade Goods Table?
I think the GMG(Gamemastery Guide) states them for being full value. Though it might be one of those GMs are encouraged to do X moments...
To be fair, he didn't know about the RAW and came to the Rules section to find out the RAW. Now that he knows, it's really up to him at this point and he could take it to the Advice section for anything 'Rule 0' related.
That said, Rule 0 is built into selling art Voomer. Read this from UE
The following tables list art objects of value in a traditional fantasy campaign. In some cases, the listed price represents only the typical value of an item; it may have a higher value to a buyer who knows its origin or is descended from the original owner. For example, a painting of a historical queen may fetch a decent price in her home country, but it sells for much more if brought to an agent of the royal family. Likewise, a silver baby rattle is worth a certain amount as a curiosity or plaything for a wealthy merchant’s son, but a historian might recognize markings on it that indicate it belonged to an infant prince who was killed in a succession war, and pay a higher price for it. In this way, an art object may easily be used as a plot hook.So in the end, you as the GM...
As Sslarn points out, my main goal in starting the thread was trying to find out the intent of the AP authors. It also seemed to me that there was no clear rule in the Core Book, and that was confirmed by the debate until it was pointed out a clear rule had been added into Ultimate Equipment. The UE quote you provide actually doesn't suggest that GMs might give less than 100% -- it just indicates circumstances may justify giving MORE than 100%. So if I make it hard to get 100% outside a city, I am deviating from the RAW. That is, of course, my prerogative. But when I do deviate I like to be express about it with my players, which is why I've made the effort to be clear on what the RAW is...
Uhm,
Why is everyone arguing? I've always just assumed that things beyond Gems that were 'treasure' just listed the sell price, not the listed value. IE: Yes, that 500gp torc can be worth 1000gp, but it's value in the treasure horde is 500gp, and therefore, it's worth 500gp when you sell it. Because that's what it represents, an easier way to carry 500gp. Same as that barrel of salt represents 1000 silver pieces. Interesting aside, Rome used to pay their soldiers in salt. :)
The UE rule is consistent with both the core rule and the treasure build rules. If the PCs want to go to extra in-game trouble to get a better price for a specific piece of art, yay! Go for it! Let them RP it out, make the rolls, and then get a better price. Everyone has fun, and you can adjust the next treasure horde to keep the WBL on the same curve as before. Everyone wins.