After many a Battle our group finally defeated a Coven of Evil witches and their Hag leaders. And while searching the Lair of the Night hag we came across a pale skin girl of about 6 with One green eye and one blue.
The Rogue was for slitting the Changling throat, The Barbarian thought burning at the Stake was better, the Magnus thought she could fetch a few coins at the slave market while the Cleric said she should be locked up at a Nunnery for life , at Which point our Hedge Witch State Loudly that anyone who hurt the girl would answer to him and he would curse them forever .He then offered to our Paladin leader to forgo all shares of the treasure and rewards in return for the child to be raised as his daughter and apprentice.
This shut up everyone except the Cleric who insisted that the Changling was dangerous and could cause great evil when she came of age while the Witch stated while that was true, he understood her calling and would raise her so she used her powers for the good when the time came.This went on for some time between the Cleric and the Witch.
The Paladin finally sided with the Witch( Who is and is played as a Neutral good),who said the child was innocent of evil and should not be imprisoned for what she might do and the Witch was best suited to raise her. And now the Cleric is insisting on making a formal complaint to the Church about the Paladin .
Was wondering if anyone had any idea on how to handle the formal complaint . Would the Cleric word have more weight then the Paladin or would they be equal. And if they decide against the Paladin what would the punishment be?
1) Cleric's Alignment?
2) Faling to slaughter an innocent child is not going to be an issue.
3) Insisting on slaughtering an innocent child should always be an evil act (IMHO) so if the cleric tries, succeeds, or asks the Paladin's Church's aid in such an act, shift the cleric radically towards the Evil spectrum, and strip all powers as appropriate for such a shift.
4) Paladin's Church launches a full inquest in the the mental stability of said cleric ...
Uhh...why did everyone want to kill the Changeling?
Changelings are not born evil, nor are they bound by any sort of aboleth problem like Gillmen. The only "pull" a changeling has to evil is the presence of her hag mother who wants to transform her, and that mother is dead now. If the Cleric or other party members persist at threatening her, have the Paladin Smite the newly evil party. The Rogue, Barbarian, and Magus are already evil and smitable, and the cleric will lose his powers if his diety is NG or CG since I'm sure forcibly imprisoning an innocent forever is both Lawful and Evil.
Set her free or adopt, train her as a witch.
It depends on which Church, but as a general rule...
With her Mother dead, the Changeling can't be called to be a Hag anyway. She therefore has no more potential for evil than any other half-race, such as a Half-Orc.
I can't think of any good aligned Church that would simply murder a child for having an evil mother. Even Erastil, which has an element of, 'Women should be barefoot and pregnant, making me a damned sandwhich' isn't up for that.
However, it sounds like you have a fairly evil group (murder, burning and slavery was the first things your guys think of when dealing with a child? Yikes) and if the Cleric manages to convince the others to back him up (his word alone should not be enough) then the Paladin could get censured by the Church in some way. In terms of powers and such, they can't touch the Paladin, so it would be along the lines of a fine or reprimand.
If the Paladin hands the girl over for something he believes will be bad (such as burning) then he'll go Fallen, as he would for handing over any innocent six year old child with only a potential for evil (so...all of them).
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Which deity?
Depending on the answer, a conflict between a paladin and a cleric of the church is likely to stir up murky political motives and disagreements among different church orders and leaders. Other things being equal, the PCs' influence probably should be about the same. They might both be called in to engage in a lot of diplomacy and favour-trading to influence the outcome of some sort of formal council or audience with a higher cleric.
If they decide against the paladin, he might have to do a penance, pilgrimage or quest to show his contrition and obedience to correct doctrine. It's unlikely the church will take direct action to override the party's decision unless the cleric manages to turn them very strongly in his favour.
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What they have failed to consider is, does the changeling child weigh the same as a duck?
The Cleric never wanted to kill the changeling, only to confine her to a nunnery, which is a completely reasonable thing for a claric, even of a Good deity to want to do with the child of a BBEG. Especially if said cleric was lacking in the relevant knowledge skills to know that in the absence of a hag, a changeling probably would not become evil.
Remember that Good does not necessarily mean that they do everything that would seem right to us today. Confining someone to a religious institution (as opposed to a prison) even forcibly at first for who they are is not evil, even though it is not really a civilizd thing to do to people from our perspective. From the cleric's point of view though what could be better than giving the child in question the chance to grow up as a champion of righteousness? Even if that chance involves a childhod of brainwashing and religious indoctrination. In a world with objective Good, that sort of thing might not actually be seen as a bad thing when done by the Good churches.
That said, I would imagine that the paladin saying that they used their discretion to show mercy in this case, and vouching for the character of the witch would be enough to get the church heirarcy to agree with the paladin here, although the cleric should not be punished.
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You the GM in this situation?
Morally the Paladin is absolutely in the right here. The changeling girl is an innocent and it would be better to entrust her to someone who understands her and cares enough to forfeit his share of the treasure in order to claim her as his adopted daughter.
The cleric and paladin probably should have about equal respect and should each have to argue their case. Saint Caleth has a point that historically it might have been considered proper for the church to take custody of such a child. Depends a bit on the exact church involved. However, I do think the Paladin has a better chance of a favourable ruling in this situation, particularly if he vouches for the witch and one or both of them offers to take personal responsibility for any evil the child may cause.
If they rule against they might try to take the child, but I'm personally in favour of putting the Paladin on some form of "probation" where he has to check in with a church official every so often to report on his efforts to serve their cause and to report on the status of the child.
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Wait a minute. Am I actually reading a thread about a situation involving moral choice and a paladin that's not questioning the paladin's actions at all?
Mind = blown
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I am reminded of a depiction of someones campaign from /tg/ on 4chan where the players killed, I think, a Lamia, but after the battle found the Lamia's child. The party paladin stated he would raise the child, as it had been they who'd kill its mother. He stated that, even if the child grew up to obtain revenge on him, it was still the righteous thing to do.
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Wait a minute. Am I actually reading a thread about a situation involving moral choice and a paladin that's not questioning the paladin's actions at all?
Mind = blown
Seconded. And second mind blown moment = me agreeing with a Paladin. I think the Hedge Witch definitely has the expertise, and with the support system of a party Paladin and Cleric, there really shouldn't be an issue of either raising her or watching over her.
I don't think the Cleric was doing evil, per-se, I simply agree with the morals of the Hedge Witch and *shudder* the Paladin.
As far as the formal letter of protest, I say let the Cleric send it. He's well within his rights if he believes that's the best course and if he truly thinks the Paladin is off his rocker. If it's a goodly aligned God, I'm sure after hearing all the facts (may involve a staged formal inquiry) they will side with the Paladin/Witch. And even if the Church does not, the God surely will. And that's all the justification a Paladin really needs.
Partly to play Devil's Advocate here, but in a way I kinda agree with the Cleric... to an extent.
Get the girl to someplace SAFE for a little bit, regroup and confirm that the girl is indeed not evil and is okay with the fact that the hags are dead and this nice Hedge Witch is willing to take her in as a daughter and teach her to use her abilities for the betterment of others (would also give the two time to get acclimated to each other), and then hand her over to her new father.
It's a nice compromise between the wishes of the Cleric and the Paladin, the Hedge Witch still gets to adopt her, and the girl gets some time to recover from any trauma she may be having.
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Partly to play Devil's Advocate here, but in a way I kinda agree with the Cleric... to an extent.
Get the girl to someplace SAFE for a little bit, regroup and confirm that the girl is indeed not evil and is okay with the fact that the hags are dead and this nice Hedge Witch is willing to take her in as a daughter and teach her to use her abilities for the betterment of others (would also give the two time to get acclimated to each other), and then hand her over to her new father.
It's a nice compromise between the wishes of the Cleric and the Paladin, the Hedge Witch still gets to adopt her, and the girl gets some time to recover from any trauma she may be having.
How exactly would being cloistered away to a nunnery give this poor girl time to get acclimated to her new father or spare her from any trauma? It's not like the Hedge Witch would just be available for weekend visits every Thursday. A nunnery is basically no contact for a very long time whilst the Church ingrains and brainwashes their message onto the "faithful".
The cleric would be CAUSING trauma at this point by completely extricating her from her surroundings, ripping her away from the one (or two) people who actually want to help her, and driving her further towards distrust and mental/emotional scarring...this path is nothing more than altering the types of torture she's already been enduring, instead of ending it and allowing her some freedom such as the Paladin and Hedge Witch are offering...
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What they have failed to consider is, does the changeling child weigh the same as a duck?
Build a bridge out of her!
What is the Witch's plan for raising this girl? Drag her along on dangerous adventures? Leave her at home alone for weeks at a time and pop in for absentee parenting when there's item crafting to be done?
Unless the Witch retires or the campaign involves spending most of the time at the Witches home with a 20 minute jaunt down the local farmer's market to pick up a six pack of trolls to fight, I don't see how the Witch, Paladin or anyone else can think "the Witch was best suited to raise her".
I think the Cleric is in the right here because the Witch (unless he retires) cannot give the attention the child needs without putting her in constant danger (not to mention the possibility of getting himself killed/imprisoned/whatever and leaving her an orphan, always a risk as an adventurer). Sounds less like the Witch has the best interests of the girl at heart and more that he thinks it would be neat to have a changeling pet.
How exactly would being cloistered away to a nunnery give this poor girl time to get acclimated to her new father or spare her from any trauma? It's not like the Hedge Witch would just be available for weekend visits every Thursday. A nunnery is basically no contact for a very long time whilst the Church ingrains and brainwashes their message onto the "faithful".
The cleric would be CAUSING trauma at this point by completely extricating her from her surroundings, ripping her away from the one (or two) people who actually want to help her, and driving her further towards distrust and mental/emotional scarring...this path is nothing more than altering the types of torture she's already been enduring, instead of ending it and allowing her some freedom such as the Paladin and Hedge Witch are offering...
I did say "to an extent". Yeah, the idea of locking her away for a while isn't gonna help any, but at least getting her someplace safe for a little bit would be. A nunnery or some kind of monastery or church is gonna have tons of protections, both magical and the clerics themselves protecting it, and it would give everyone a chance to recuperate and sort everything out.
neat to have a changling pet.
It is neat. But, we call them "cohorts" to keep the druids happy.
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Unless the Witch retires or the campaign involves spending most of the time at the Witches home with a 20 minute jaunt down the local farmer's market to pick up a six pack of trolls to fight, I don't see how the Witch, Paladin or anyone else can think "the Witch was best suited to raise her".
Actually this resembles several campaigns I've played in.
In two campaigns, the PCs had a safe home base from which they adventured. Said adventures would usually take a couple days, but a fair chunk of time was spent in town. One PC did have two children living in town.
In another, the PCs found a minor artifact enabling them to teleport between one linked item in the field and another kept at their home base essentially at-will.
In another, the PCs live in town and work in town, on the town guard's payroll.
Witch will probably need a good nanny to help out, but depending on the campaign he might be at least as available as many real-world parents.
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What is the Witch's plan for raising this girl? Drag her along on dangerous adventures? Leave her at home alone for weeks at a time and pop in for absentee parenting when there's item crafting to be done?
Unless the Witch retires or the campaign involves spending most of the time at the Witches home with a 20 minute jaunt down the local farmer's market to pick up a six pack of trolls to fight, I don't see how the Witch, Paladin or anyone else can think "the Witch was best suited to raise her".
I think the Cleric is in the right here because the Witch (unless he retires) cannot give the attention the child needs without putting her in constant danger (not to mention the possibility of getting himself killed/imprisoned/whatever and leaving her an orphan, always a risk as an adventurer). Sounds less like the Witch has the best interests of the girl at heart and more that he thinks it would be neat to have a changeling pet.
Might seem unusual to our 21st century sensibilities, but an adventurer or mercenary raising an orphan is a common thing you see in fiction. Whether it's Kenshin being raised by Hiko Seijūrō or Batman raising Dick Grayson as Robin, it's something that isn't all that unusual in a world filled with danger.
Might seem unusual to our 21st century sensibilities, but an adventurer or mercenary raising an orphan is a common thing you see in fiction. Whether it's Kenshin being raised by Hiko Seijūrō or Batman raising Dick Grayson as Robin, it's something that isn't all that unusual in a world filled with danger.
Whether or not it's unusual or not in fiction is not the point. The point is what's the best course of action for the child. From the OP's description, this is does not sound to me like "we found this orphaned girl and kept her safe as we traveled back out of the wilderness, and even though we intended to find her a good home that could accommodate her special needs, by golly she grew on us and I can't bear to be without her. Even though it may not be the safest for her, we have an emotional bond that I think is important." This sounds like "we found this orphaned girl and while we were discussing what best to about her I decided I am going to keep her because I always wanted a changeling pet, er...I meant child and I think that would look cool on my character sheet."
Honestly, if I was an adventure and a party member's first reaction to finding an orphan (immature hag or not) was to profess their desire to adopt them while threatening the rest of the party with violence if they tried to separate them, I would immediately jump said party member, tie them up and try to figure out who just hit them with mind control magic and how do we cure it.
Actually this resembles several campaigns I've played in.
In two campaigns, the PCs had a safe home base from which they adventured. Said adventures would usually take a couple days, but a fair chunk of time was spent in town. One PC did have two children living in town.
In another, the PCs found a minor artifact enabling them to teleport between one linked item in the field and another kept at their home base essentially at-will.
In another, the PCs live in town and work in town, on the town guard's payroll.
Witch will probably need a good nanny to help out, but depending on the campaign he might be at least as available as many real-world parents.
That may be the case here, I don't know how this campaign is structured. But even if it is, it still doesn't negate the fact that the Witch might never come back one day because he was disintegrated and the ashes scattered to the winds, or trapped in the abyss or something.
Sure, anything can happen to anyone at anytime, but adventurers intentionally put themselves in harm's way. Sure, that's a thing that some parents do. But in this case there are no emotional bonds or other extenuating circumstances presented. This isn't the adventurer's child. This isn't a child the adventurer has grown fond of. This is, as presented, the party finding a child and the Cleric saying "let's take her to a place where an orphan can be safe and cared for and are likely to have the magical know how to deal with her special needs" (I assume that's the Cleric's position as he/she suggested a nunnery and not a tossing her into a dungeon) and the Witch saying "No, a life of danger or possibly just the constant threat of losing their parent-figure to violence (again) while being raised by one of the guys that just murderer her real parent is best for this child", and the Paladin saying "The Witch makes sense to me."
It's not that it seems odd to my 21st century sensibilities, or that it's unworkable on a practical level (or at least not just that, which is why I asked how the Witch intended to raise this child). It's the fact that it seems very odd to make that decision at the drop of a hat when there is no emotional issues coloring the decision. It wreaks of "oh, shiny! Me want new toy" rather than "I want whats best for this child" or even "This may not be ideal, but it's the best we can do given the emotional factors."
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Whether or not it's unusual or not in fiction is not the point. The point is what's the best course of action for the child. From the OP's description, this is does not sound to me like "we found this orphaned girl and kept her safe as we traveled back out of the wilderness, and even though we intended to find her a good home that could accommodate her special needs, by golly she grew on us and I can't bear to be without her. Even though it may not be the safest for her, we have an emotional bond that I think is important." This sounds like "we found this orphaned girl and while we were discussing what best to about her I decided I am going to keep her because I always wanted a changeling pet, er... I meant child and I think that would look cool on my character sheet."
Honestly, if I was an adventure and a party member's first reaction to finding an orphan (immature hag or not) was to profess their desire to adopt them while threatening the rest of the party with violence if they tried to separate them, I would immediately jump said party member, tie them up and try to figure out who just hit them with mind control magic and how do we cure it.
What this looks like to me is the witch got a major case of Papa Wolf when the other party members suggested killing this girl or selling her into slavery. Might not be quite the same thing as a strong emotional bond, but it's promising.
Sure, anything can happen to anyone at anytime, but adventurers intentionally put themselves in harm's way. Sure, that's a thing that some parents do. But in this case there are no emotional bonds or other extenuating circumstances presented. This isn't the adventurer's child. This isn't a child the adventurer has grown fond of. This is, as presented, the party finding a child and the Cleric saying "let's take her to a place where an orphan can be safe and cared for and are likely to have the magical know how to deal with her special needs" (I assume that's the Cleric's position as he/she suggested a nunnery and not a tossing her into a dungeon) and the Witch saying "No, a life of danger or possibly just the constant threat of losing their parent-figure to violence (again) while being raised by one of the guys that just murderer her real parent is best for this child", and the Paladin saying "The Witch makes sense to me."
Except the cleric isn't saying "let's take her to a place where she can be safe and properly cared for." He's saying "let's take her to a place where they can lock her up for life and make sure she doesn't do anything evil." It's not quite the same thing as being locked in a dungeon, but it sure isn't motivated by a desire to do what's best for the girl herself.
Depending on the campaign, it might be a better idea in the long run to find a non-adventuring adoptive parent for the girl. But in the short term the witch absolutely looks like the person best suited to protect her (since he's the one who wants to protect her).
Exactly. That's the difference. The witch probably thinks she's the only person who can raise the girl. Is it true? Probably not. Is it rational? Nope. But people, even super powered mages, can be irrational. She's the Ripley to the Changeling's Newt.
And if it is 'shiny, new toy' syndrome that the players want, so what? Who are we to assume that and who are we to judge? I've had countless games where the players found that 'mascot NPC' they instantly fell in love with. It can be awesome to have one in a party. Comedy relief, the adorable child, the somewhat crazy familiar... it can be very fun. Although considering two of the characters want to kill her and one wants to sell her to slavery... well, I'm just glad the paladin has her back.
And hell, kudos to the paladin player for being a real good guy and not a Lawful Stupid prick.
But she's a witch....
BURN HER!!!
I'm more appaled by the Paladin's lack of looking at the bigger picture. If he lets this child could and it performs evil, he's responsible for that. He should be taking a real close look at what happens to the child, and be the first to arrive when it does perform evil.
Too many people in this thread are using metagame knowledge to damn an act as evil or not. You can only speak about morality in the face of party knowledge. Since they don't know the child has no particular evil tendencies, the moral thing to do would be to play it safe and not let the child go without keeping a close eye. Straight murder would be going too far, but making sure a suspicious child is kept in check isn't an evil act. The first thing to do should be to learn more about hag children.
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Changelings are not automatically Evil. The Rogue, Barbarian and Magus sound pretty darn Evil, though.
And the Cleric should get spit at by the church for trying to complain about a Paladin who did the right thing.
Knowledge (Local* or Arcana) should reveal that Changelings are not naturally evil humanoids, and get the child to safety.
* = From what I know, Knowledge (Local) is the one that is used for rolls when trying to figure out information involving Humanoids and such.
But she's a witch....
BURN HER!!!
I'm more appaled by the Paladin's lack of looking at the bigger picture. If he lets this child could and it performs evil, he's responsible for that. He should be taking a real close look at what happens to the child, and be the first to arrive when it does perform evil.
Too many people in this thread are using metagame knowledge to damn an act as evil or not. You can only speak about morality in the face of party knowledge. Since they don't know the child has no particular evil tendencies, the moral thing to do would be to play it safe and not let the child go without keeping a close eye. Straight murder would be going too far, but making sure a suspicious child is kept in check isn't an evil act. The first thing to do should be to learn more about hag children.
Well admittedly, the best way to keep a close look at her is to raise the child themselves, right? :D
I just realized the funny timing of this thread, since I added a little sub-plot to Kingmaker involving all the cultists of Gyronna that are running around, causing the players to find a Changeling who was being sacrificed to the goddess. They saved her from the cultists, and the Lawful Neutral Necromancer took the girl as his apprentice (and technically adopted her as well) as he noticed she had the skills of an amateur Sorceress, though oddly her bloodline had a faint aura of undeath on it.
Partly to play Devil's Advocate here, but in a way I kinda agree with the Cleric... to an extent.
Get the girl to someplace SAFE for a little bit, regroup and confirm that the girl is indeed not evil and is okay with the fact that the hags are dead and this nice Hedge Witch is willing to take her in as a daughter and teach her to use her abilities for the betterment of others (would also give the two time to get acclimated to each other), and then hand her over to her new father.
It's a nice compromise between the wishes of the Cleric and the Paladin, the Hedge Witch still gets to adopt her, and the girl gets some time to recover from any trauma she may be having.
How exactly would being cloistered away to a nunnery give this poor girl time to get acclimated to her new father or spare her from any trauma? It's not like the Hedge Witch would just be available for weekend visits every Thursday. A nunnery is basically no contact for a very long time whilst the Church ingrains and brainwashes their message onto the "faithful".
The cleric would be CAUSING trauma at this point by completely extricating her from her surroundings, ripping her away from the one (or two) people who actually want to help her, and driving her further towards distrust and mental/emotional scarring...this path is nothing more than altering the types of torture she's already been enduring, instead of ending it and allowing her some freedom such as the Paladin and Hedge Witch are offering...
That is great and absolutely correct from a modern perspective where we have an understanding of psychology and of the fact that religious indoctrination is a borderline pretty bad thing.
From the cleric's perspective, even if they worship a good deity, taking a newly orphaned child into the care of the church is obviously a good thing. Also from the cleric's perspective it is not brainwashing, but giving the child a chance to become a force for good (the cleric is probably wrong with this view though). I don't think that there is really any grounds to judge the cleric for wanting this outcome, although as I mention below, I would subvert the cleric's expectations a little.
If the cleric wins out, the DM could either play this straight, with the child growing up relatively safe and well educated in the care of the church, or subvert it in the way you mentioned, more medieval caltholic church about the whole thing. I think that subverting it is the way to go for a more interesting story, but I know that many people are reluctant to be that cynical about religion in their games.
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Honestly, it makes sense to me. The Witch probably saw a little bit of his own childhood in the changeling and probably wanted to make sure she grew up to understand her powers and the responsibility and prejudice that comes with that. It's kind of like the trope where a policeman saves a child from a killer, but the parents die. Now feeling responsible, the officer takes him under his wing and may even train him to be a cop. Or a serial killer that kills other serial killers... okay, that one is a bit more of a stretch. :)
And the paladin, well, he doesn't see a changeling that'll follow in her mother's footsteps. Instead of acting like some xenos-hating 40K Space Marine, he see a scared little girl with two guys threatening to kill her and one wanting to sell her into slavery. And, he probably believes that of all the people in his party, the Witch is probably the one he can trust the most to handle this issue.
I don't see any metagaming here, at least on the paladin's end. The others seem like they are assuming the changeling will be evil because of what they read on the ARG. Which is wrong anyways. Changelings can resist the call to hagdom and the call does cease, according to Haunting of Harrowstone, where the Changeling first appeared. The paladin is just going with his gut instinct to not assume that every orc, tiefling, and changeling is automatically destined for evil and honestly, I applaud him for that. I say let them keep the child. Who knows, maybe one day she could end up a future PC for another game. Or the current game *shrug*
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What you have here is the beginning of a really interesting adventure. A type I've always wanted to run.
Here's how you lay it out:
"You are standing in the temple of [GOOD GOD], speaking to the tribunal (a Cleric (NG), a Paladin (LG) and a Laypriest (Expert) (LN). The three have convened to decide what to do about the girl you have found.
The Arbiter first calls the rogue to testify. As the records state after collecting the girl, strange things started occuring in your vicinity. Tell me could you describe the first of them?"
Hand the rogue a card it reads:
"Well we were camping, waiting to go back. I was on watch while the rest of the party was asleep..."
Then you jump to an encounter with perhaps some wolves and their dire or winter wolf leader (depending on party level). At some point during the fight when either the witch or the paladin is injured have the little girl scream, causing the wolves to all stop attacking and then bow.
The point of the adventure is that something weird IS happening, but it's not the little girl's doing. The Hag the PCs killed is trying to come through as a ghost, and each of the vignettes builds towards this revelation until after the last PC has "testified" the Hag's Ghost appears, escaping from the little girl. The PCs can face off against the Hag's ghost in the middle of a panicked courtroom.
Should be epic.
Well admittedly, the best way to keep a close look at her is to raise the child themselves, right? :D
I'd say the nunnery and taking care of it yourself are on par. Both have risks and benefits.
While I think the paladin did the right thing there's always a problem or two about this self raising:
- If the pc keeps on adventuring, can she really look for the kid? Taking her along would mean endangering the girl, leaving her somewhere means you don'r raise her yourself.
- If the kid does turn out to be evil even the best intentions would not help. Either the pc really accepts her as a kid and loves her, then she's a good mother but would not willingly strike her daughter down or she keeps her feelings in check, then she is a bad mother which makes it all the more likely that the child turns to evil.
Show me someone who plays a caring parent who turns on his or her evil kid to save the world and I show you a metagamer.
I suppose the party can keep the kid in the saddlebags while they adventure into dungeons and evil BBEG lairs, yknow, where the horses and animal companions stay when they're not being actively used.
Exactly. That's the difference. The witch probably thinks she's the only person who can raise the girl. Is it true? Probably not. Is it rational? Nope. But people, even super powered mages, can be irrational.
Perhaps especially super powered mage can be irrational. I mean really these are the people that tell the laws of phsyics to sit down and shut up, and then expect said laws to comply.
That doesn't exactly smack me as rational.
What they have failed to consider is, does the changeling child weigh the same as a duck?Build a bridge out of her!
She turned me into newt...I got better.
What gets me is the fact that the Paladin is working with a group that will slit throats, burn, maimed and kill so easily.
I know, it's the first thing that came to my mind as well, but I didn't want to derail by turning this into another paladin morality discussion.
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I can actually see everyone's perspective.
Rogue: Killed some hags(Evil witches) and now we've found a little hag, kill it. A monster's a monster whatever the form. Besides, we did just kill the mother. My way is best because little monsters grow up to be big monsters and I really don't want a monster growing up whose sole purpose in life is to take revenge on me and my friends because we killed its dame. Less monsters and no revenge stories, how is this not a good idea?
Barbarian(Especially Kellid): Spawn of witches = kill.(They do have a slight prejudice against arcane casters, witches in particular.) My way is best because witches spell doom for all around them and are servants of evil. (He/she is caught between Irrisen and the Wound.) It is tradition and protects everyone, not just us. It is a danger to great to risk.
Magus: Looks human enough, somebody probably wants one. My way is best because we get money, which we need, and the kid gets to live. What is with you people who want to destroy assets or burden us with liabilities?
Cleric: We are not equipped or suited to care for a 1) spawn of evil witches just waiting to enchant/kill us in our sleep. 2) Child with an unfortunate heritage that will have who knows what effect on her and has just been exposed to the violent deaths of her family, and who knows what horrors she has already suffered. Either case, let's get her to an institution where they have experience with this sort of thing. Maybe a Sarenraite temple? My way is best because is protects an innocent child and ensures that she will have a safe, stable environment to heal, with people who can help and guide her, and restrain her if she turns to evil. Why choose a harsh life of danger on the road for her instead of a safe bastion of goodness?
Witch: I know what she is going through. Her connection to the powers isn't her fault, and she hasn't done anything wrong. If she is going to resist the path of her mother and gain control of her abilities, she needs someone who can relate and coach. Killing would be murdering a child and the cleric wouldn't understand what is happening. My way is best because it protects an innocent child and ensures that she will have the training and empathy she needs. Do we abandon the child again and to the mercy of strangers that, while good intentioned, cannot understand her?
Paladin: These are all good points, except for yours magus, slavery is an abomination in the eyes of X, and people are not assets. Rogue, Barbarian: We do not condemn people, and the child is clearly human, in the general sense, for crimes they have not yet committed, regardless of what tradition says. Cleric, your point is valid. Ours is a harsh life, one ill suited to a traumatized child, and indeed a monestery would provide peace and tranquility, and isolation if need be. However, witch, in this case, has the right of it. You and I are ill equipted to understand our companion's abilities, let alone the emerging talents of a child whose blood is tainted. The same could be said for our brethren. We shall take the child with us, shield her from harm, and give witch the chance to watch over and guide her. If this doesn't seem to be working out, we can revisit the idea.
She turned me into newt...I got better.What they have failed to consider is, does the changeling child weigh the same as a duck?Build a bridge out of her!
We shall use my largest scales!
We shall use my largest scales!She turned me into newt...I got better.What they have failed to consider is, does the changeling child weigh the same as a duck?Build a bridge out of her!
Well, we did do the nose... and the hat... But, she's a witch!!!
Well, we did do the nose... and the hat... But, she's a witch!!!We shall use my largest scales!She turned me into newt...I got better.What they have failed to consider is, does the changeling child weigh the same as a duck?Build a bridge out of her!
Burn her!
Some minor points:
- It's happened in fiction
- It can add to the story
...so why not?
If we really want to bring in RL to a land of dragons and monsters:
- Even today, half of the corpses delivered to funeral homes are under the age of 18.
- This would have been worse in older days
- Though women today may live around 5 years longer than men, this was not always the case; when women were having 6+ children, they lived an average of 10 years fewer and were much, much more prone to bone disease (much more likely than today) and other complications (doctors washing their hands before delivery...no? yes?)
- "Family mergers" were more common so that children could have a chance of survival
- ...life was rough for kids
Given the general poor quality of life for children, parents, families (and especially young girls) in many areas, having someone capable of protecting you, and feeding you, and keeping you free from diseases, /even if it means going and slaying dangerous monsters/, can be a plus and is probably not that bad when compared to other options of the day.
And going back into the fantasy realm...
Adventuring is a /profession/. :D
It's sort of like a kid being adopted by a mercenary camp.
How many PCs have existed who had this as part of their background?
Also, kudos to the witch... :)
Except the cleric isn't saying "let's take her to a place where she can be safe and properly cared for." He's saying "let's take her to a place where they can lock her up for life and make sure she doesn't do anything evil." It's not quite the same thing as being locked in a dungeon, but it sure isn't motivated by a desire to do what's best for the girl herself.
Depending on the campaign, it might be a better idea in the long run to find a non-adventuring adoptive parent for the girl. But in the short term the witch absolutely looks like the person best suited to protect her (since he's the one who wants to protect her).
I concede that the OP makes the Cleric's suggestion out to be a punitive one, but I have my doubts solely for the reason that when I want to imprison a clawed, fanged extraplanar humanoid with super-human strength that can walk through walls, my go-to option is not "nunnery". This is not a pregnant daughter that you want to squirrel away out of embarassment. The nunnery option implies (at least to me) that you are not just looking for imprisonment.
She's the Ripley to the Changeling's Newt.
I must have missed the scene where the colonial marines murdered Newt's parents, and the scene were Ripley declared she was gonna adopt Newt as soon as she pulled out of the air duct. I further missed the part where Ripley decided that instead of just wanting to go home and try to put together a normal life she decided she was gonna join the marine platoon (more than half of which want to kill Newt or sell her into slavery) in hopping from planet to planet, killing xenomorphs. Must have been the super extended directors cut.
It's obvious a lot of people in this thread have a different perspective than me so I am just gonna state a few more things and then bow out of the thread.
It's one thing to feel immediately protective of an orphaned child you just met. That's not the same thing as "I am go to raise this child as my own". I think it's a trope that a hero takes an orphan under their wing out of a sense of obligation and then grows fond of them and decides to become a surrogate parent. What I don't think is a trope is that the hero helps kill the bad guy then at the drop of their hat decides to take the bad guy's kid and raise her as their own, accompanied by the other murders of her parent, half of whom want to kill her or sell her into slavery. That's not hero territory, that's creepy serial killer territory.
I don't even necessarily object to someone's character making that irrational decision for whatever. It starts getting very strange for me when another character steps in and says "Yes, this character has made the best possible choice for this child."
Anyway, clearly I am in the minority.
Two thoughts:
1) When DMing, I try to keep in mind that PF is about cooperative storytelling. That is, If the cleric says "The church would be against this!" It is sort of a dick move to have the church disagree with him (unless he is super off base) because the character presumably knows his own church.
2) As far as I understand, clerics get their magical power from deities ad their mortal authority from the church. On the other hand, a paladin gets his power from the elemental forces of Law and Good. This means that since a deity has free will they have some degree of freedom in how they interpret "good." Because of this, a paladin is free to disagree with some gods.
So. My suggestion is this: Unless you want the campaign to be about this changeling, don't have the church censure the paladin. Have them agree with the cleric but accept the paladin's suggestion under protest. After all, a good church does not want to oppose a paladin violently, because after all, he could be right!
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I can actually see everyone's perspective.
Excellent post.
It is my opinion that under these circumstance, the mental and emotional trauma of being dropped off at a church and sequestered from the world after having been subjected to whatever horrors the hags were exposing her to far outstrips the physical dangers of traveling with adventurers.
She goes to some church to be trained and the other children shun her for her heritage? The priests and clergymen regard her in the same manner as a stray dog because they do not wish to associate with her or because they simply can't figure out what she needs psychologically? That is a lifetime of torture, regardless of your religious views. A Pathfinder nunnery is not some temple to the pantheon where they sort you into your preferred religion like a cracked out version of Hogwarts. You are forcing a way of life onto that child without her consent.
Is that historically accurate? Perhaps it is; maybe in Europe they sent children off to those establishments, but this isn't the real world. Women have rights in Pathfinder that they didn't back in the middle ages. There are cities the size of Rome in a dozen places, and genetic experiments being conducted. Just because one person has the idea to do it does not make it the only logical answer.
Maybe it's because I watched Despicable Me last night, but I think the witch IS best suited for this. There is a stigma that comes with being a changeling and a witch, and who better for the job that someone who truly understands it AND is neutral good? Kudos to the Paladin and witch players, and hurray for awesome grey-areas in morality.
It's one thing to feel immediately protective of an orphaned child you just met. That's not the same thing as "I am go to raise this child as my own". I think it's a trope that a hero takes an orphan under their wing out of a sense of obligation and then grows fond of them and decides to become a surrogate parent. What I don't think is a trope is that the hero helps kill the bad guy then at the drop of their hat decides to take the bad guy's kid and raise her as their own, accompanied by the other murders of her parent, half of whom want to kill her or sell her into slavery. That's not hero territory, that's creepy serial killer territory.
Exhibit A: Loki, Laufey's son. Okay... Seems like a bad idea.
Exhibit B: Slevin Kelevra. Well he didn't turn out so bad in the end.
Exhibit C: Kurt Wagner, aka Nightcrawler. Okay, this one is a bit of a stretch, but his parents are evil, and he's taken in by the good guys who are constantly at war with his parents' side. All that considered, he's one of the most humble, kindest, and most gentle heroes there is in Marvel's world of snikt-snikt and kapow-eye-lasers.
Conclusion: This could go anywhere. It really depends on the player's portrayal of the surrogate parent (who sounds genuinely empathetic) and the DM playing the child (who could, after all, fail to recognize the kindnesses done for her).
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OK, I'm reporting this thread to a modirator. This thread contains nothing but well thought out civil discorse about an interesting role playing situation and implications of the morality in question. The lack of damage per round in this discussion, as well as the lack of paladin bashing, make this an unsuitable thread for this message board.
:-)
Seriously, this has been an exceptionally interesting thread. Keep up the great posts!
And an interesting thought - the paladin would probably be the best judge as to whether the child was evil or not (at least currently). Built in Detect Evil ability kind of helps there. I wonder if this figured into his judgment?