What was your point again?
The top of my head?
A snake can be made prone if it attempts to Tumble past an opponent with Acrobatics to avoid Attacks of Opportunity, fails the tumble, is successfully attacked, and then fails a second check.
A snake that falls and takes lethal damage falls in the Prone position.
A snake that you can communicate with may be targeted by a Hideous Laughter spell, which can cause it to fall Prone. This may be common in the case of Druid Animal Companions or spellcaster Familiars that learn to understand a language by many methods.
As far as I'm concerned, a creature is only going to be immune to the prone condition if it has anatomy that allows it to move and perceive in a manner completely irrelevant to its orientation. Most of these creatures would likely be oozes, or perhaps creatures that fly without a need for wings that are capable of seeing all around them equally well.
As far as I'm concerned, a creature is only going to be immune to the prone condition if it has anatomy that allows it to move and perceive in a manner completely irrelevant to its orientation. Most of these creatures would likely be oozes, or perhaps creatures that fly without a need for wings that are capable of seeing all around them equally well.
Hmm... I'd probably add some aquatic creatures that, by virtue of having the dame density as the water around them, are floating...
Can you Ki Throw a snake? Ki Throw says you make a trip attack (and use bonuses you have for tripping), but you aren't really tripping your opponent - you're picking them up and giving them the chuck. I don't see anything about a snake's anatomy that makes it impossible to throw them (not that I'd care to try it myself).
For that matter, can you Ki Throw a prone person?
The image of snagging a downed guy by the ankles, whipping them around and around in a two-person game of Crack the Whip, and letting them fly seems like a ton of fun.
A snake can be made prone if it attempts to Tumble past an opponent with Acrobatics to avoid Attacks of Opportunity, fails the tumble, is successfully attacked, and then fails a second check.
Huh? My reading of the Acrobatics rules says nothing about gaining the prone condition if a character or creature fails their check. It just says you either avoid or don't an AoO (if moving through a threatened square), or lose your movement and still provoke an AoO (if moving through an enemy sqaure).
A snake that falls and takes lethal damage falls in the Prone position.
That's a good point. Which also lends itself very well to the reading of the prone condition, as "prone" to being more easily attacked. This would be much easier to swallow if the language of the condition didn't say: "The character is lying on the ground." And "Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity."
This is why the rules are put into the hands of intelligent people. I guess so far this thread has proven that every table is going to handle it differently, and that's good. That's what these rules are for. So if one table says, "no, a snake is already lying on the ground, they can't gain the prone condition;" that's okay. If another table says, "sure, prone doesn't necessarily mean just 'lying on the ground,' it means temporarily unable to physically react in a normal way;" that's okay too.
A snake that you can communicate with may be targeted by a Hideous Laughter spell, which can cause it to fall Prone. This may be common in the case of Druid Animal Companions or spellcaster Familiars that learn to understand a language by many methods.
That one is a little far-fetched in that most animal companion snakes have a starting INT of 1, and the spell doesn't affect any creature that doesn't have a minimum INT score of 3. I'm sure there are cases though where a familiar or animal companion serpent has had it's INT raised to 3, and in that case (though they'd still get that +4 bonus for being a creature of a different type) they would absolutely be susceptible to Hideous Laughter.
As far as I'm concerned, a creature is only going to be immune to the prone condition if it has anatomy that allows it to move and perceive in a manner completely irrelevant to its orientation. Most of these creatures would likely be oozes, or perhaps creatures that fly without a need for wings that are capable of seeing all around them equally well.
Those are good examples of things that could definitely be immune to being prone. I think that's partially where some of the arguments are happening here, because it says in the Trip rules: "Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped."
Emphasis mine. I think this entire argument would go away if that last line was changed to ...creatures-are immune to the prone condition; or ...creatures-cannot be knocked prone.
I don't think this pocket issue is worth an FAQ or errata though. Every table should handle it however they deem fit.
Can you Ki Throw a snake? Ki Throw says you make a trip attack (and use bonuses you have for tripping), but you aren't really tripping your opponent - you're picking them up and giving them the chuck. I don't see anything about a snake's anatomy that makes it impossible to throw them (not that I'd care to try it myself).
Awesome, now I can make a homage to that one scene in the Kalevala where one guy gets killed when another dude throws a snake at him.
One could argue that since the snake is lying on the ground constantly, it has a permanent prone condition, and can never get rid of prone since it can't stand up.
Heh,
Prone: The character is lying on the ground.
As opposed to what exactly in a snakes case?
If they get up would they provoke?
If a snake "gets up" from prone is it not lying on the ground then?
Seems a bit daft to me but hey ....
...you're seriously asking this? Apply some logic here, please.
It's impossible to knock a snake prone if realism has any say in this.
Lets assume the snake's default position is considered to be partially upright, as in holding its head up, why? Because lillends, mariliths, hydras and lamia matriarchs all have the same immunity to trip and for them its normal to have their head and (where applicable) human torso in an upright position normally. In that case i would say it is entirely possible for them to go prone, as in completely prone, put their head down.
How the ruling optimally should be (and I think im going to houserule this in my games) is that snakes and snakelike creatures are able to move their full speed, get full Dex bonus and take no penalty to AC while prone and can get up or go prone as a swift action without provoking AoO.
I would say yes, prone is a abstract condition giving the prone target negative and plus. IRL, snakes are pretty much always prone in the literal but you could look at it this way.
For a snake to attack it needs to "rear" up and not flat on the ground. You knock it prone, you knock it out of the attack/defense posture, so you can see where the modifiers come in. Snake has to recover from prone to resume it's attack/defense poster by RAW.
Same could be argued with oozes and jellies, when they attack the assume an attack/defense posture which is not flat to the ground, you knock the attack posture down it is now prone, it must recover by RAW or retain that condition.
Too much literal reading into the word prone, in a very un-literal combat system
|
A moving snake would be prone, but typically an attacking snake would not be prone because it has reared up or coiled up to strike.
Why is this difficult to understand?
So, a moving snake has the following applied (since prone is a defined word in Pathfinder):
This sucks for the poor snake.
A moving snake would be prone, but typically an attacking snake would not be prone because it has reared up or coiled up to strike.
Why is this difficult to understand?
Mostly because it's not true? And even "reared up", the majority of a snake's body is going to be on the ground, where it is stable and naturally ready to stike.
I would say yes, prone is a abstract condition giving the prone target negative and plus. IRL, snakes are pretty much always prone in the literal but you could look at it this way.
For a snake to attack it needs to "rear" up and not flat on the ground. You knock it prone, you knock it out of the attack/defense posture, so you can see where the modifiers come in. Snake has to recover from prone to resume it's attack/defense poster by RAW.
Same could be argued with oozes and jellies, when they attack the assume an attack/defense posture which is not flat to the ground, you knock the attack posture down it is now prone, it must recover by RAW or retain that condition.
Too much literal reading into the word prone, in a very un-literal combat system
Snakes don't have to rear up to strike. My baby can hit a rat from pretty much any position.
Regardless, I think it is good to look at the intention behind the prone state. It's not stunned or sickened or fatigued, a person who has been knocked prone still has all of their faculties about them, they've just been knocked down, a position from where, by RAW, it is typically more difficult to fight or defend. It's not really that abstract. I think it's one idea to think that you could interpret that a being isn't knocked flat but rather, out of their "ready to attak/defend" zone, but I rather like the idea of some beasties just not being subject to that. Looking at the actions that lead to a creature gaining the prone state, I don't know if I'd read it that way. Perhaps I am too literal, but what can I say? I like snakes. :)
I suppose it's possible to knock a snake on its back, but I'd say it'd take a specific action to do that, and it'd be a bit of an undertaking. If I were GMing a game I'd say a snake (or an ooze or jelly) was immune to attacks that render it prone. It'd take a pretty convincing argument to make me change my mind, and even then, I think I'd give a hefty bonus to the snakes' CMD in this case. :P
A moving snake would be prone, but typically an attacking snake would not be prone because it has reared up or coiled up to strike.
Why is this difficult to understand?
So, a moving snake has the following applied (since prone is a defined word in Pathfinder):
–4 penalty to-hit
cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)
+4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks
–4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
requires a move action to "stand-up" to attack (provoking an AoO). This sucks for the poor snake.
Now I SO want to see somebody make a snake that uses a crossbow! I'd even give the guy Prone Shooter for free!
|
|
Now I SO want to see somebody make a snake that uses a crossbow! I'd even give the guy Prone Shooter for free!A moving snake would be prone, but typically an attacking snake would not be prone because it has reared up or coiled up to strike.
Why is this difficult to understand?
So, a moving snake has the following applied (since prone is a defined word in Pathfinder):
–4 penalty to-hit
cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)
+4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks
–4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
requires a move action to "stand-up" to attack (provoking an AoO). This sucks for the poor snake.
Been a while since I used them, but I thought that there was a version of naga with arms, but no legs (snakes lower body), can't find it now, but making snakes (and thus naga's) prone for movement does make the Naga easier to fight.
(edit to add the marilith who would also have problems here)round 1: Naga moves next to you, second move action to "stand up" (with a -4 AC vs melee) and take an AoO.
round 2: Naga bite you
round 3: ...
In stead of:
round 1: naga moves next to you and uses a standard action to bite you
round 2: ...
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
For the RAW ONLY EVERYTHING ELSE IS HOUSERULES crowd:
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
As it turns out, by RAW, the dead condition does not:
a) prevent you from taking actions
b) make you prone
So by RAW, after you die, you can just keep on your feet and keep fighting, casting spells, etc. You just can't get healing, which hardly matters, since the dead condition hampers you not one whit.
*Unless maybe you apply some common sense.* That is not a houserule.
For the RAW ONLY EVERYTHING ELSE IS HOUSERULES crowd:
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.As it turns out, by RAW, the dead condition does not:
a) prevent you from taking actions
b) make you proneSo by RAW, after you die, you can just keep on your feet and keep fighting, casting spells, etc. You just can't get healing, which hardly matters, since the dead condition hampers you not one whit.
*Unless maybe you apply some common sense.* That is not a houserule.
So, in other words, a snake is considered prone, unless it's dead. This clears up a lot! :)
Actually Dying the condition also confers the conditions Unconscious and Helpless. So if a character is dying, they are also unconscious and helpless. Also, in the explanation for dying, it says they "can take no actions." I get that nowhere in the "dead" description does it say a character can't take actions, but to move from a dying condition wherein a character cannot act, into a dead condition, and assume that the character suddenly can act again is asinine.
Which was of course your point. Sometimes people need to realize that not every little detail is going to be covered explicitly in the rules. It's what I've tried to say several times now. The rules are given to, hopefully, intelligent human beings that need to adjudicate with a modicum of common sense.
I'd even give the guy Prone Shooter for free!
A more generous GM has never been found.
I'd even give the guy Prone Shooter for free!A more generous GM has never been found.
Striking a blow for oppressed, prone snakes everywhere!
A moving snake would be prone, but typically an attacking snake would not be prone because it has reared up or coiled up to strike.
Why is this difficult to understand?
Mostly because it's not true? And even "reared up", the majority of a snake's body is going to be on the ground, where it is stable and naturally ready to stike.
I would say yes, prone is a abstract condition giving the prone target negative and plus. IRL, snakes are pretty much always prone in the literal but you could look at it this way.
For a snake to attack it needs to "rear" up and not flat on the ground. You knock it prone, you knock it out of the attack/defense posture, so you can see where the modifiers come in. Snake has to recover from prone to resume it's attack/defense poster by RAW.
Same could be argued with oozes and jellies, when they attack the assume an attack/defense posture which is not flat to the ground, you knock the attack posture down it is now prone, it must recover by RAW or retain that condition.
Too much literal reading into the word prone, in a very un-literal combat system
Snakes don't have to rear up to strike. My baby can hit a rat from pretty much any position.
Regardless, I think it is good to look at the intention behind the prone state. It's not stunned or sickened or fatigued, a person who has been knocked prone still has all of their faculties about them, they've just been knocked down, a position from where, by RAW, it is typically more difficult to fight or defend. It's not really that abstract. I think it's one idea to think that you could interpret that a being isn't knocked flat but rather, out of their "ready to attak/defend" zone, but I rather like the idea of some beasties just not being subject to that. Looking at the actions that lead to a creature gaining the prone state, I don't know if I'd read it that way. Perhaps I am too literal, but what can I say? I like snakes. :)
I suppose...
My point is prone is a condition, read literally it is knocking someone on their back, abstractly it is doing something to a target that gives said target certain modifiers. Why that can't be applied to any target because of a literal reading of prone, is beyond me. Unless of course the target is "immune to be knocked prone" via a rule. I would also think that targets would be given that if that was the intention. This could open other issues with other creature also, as mentioned above flying/swimming creatures.
I don't see it unreasonable that you "knock prone" an snake or an ooze, and that snake or ooze needs to use it move action to relieve itself of the the prone state.
I have no issue with it personally as a GM. I would also have no issue if someone houseruled particular targets could not be knocked prone, if that was a stated house rule.
Does the prone snake with the crossbow wear armor?
No, he's a caster, and the armor would interfere with his ability to perform a spell's somatic components...
Waiiitaminute!
My point is prone is a condition, read literally it is knocking someone on their back, abstractly it is doing something to a target that gives said target certain modifiers. Why that can't be applied to any target because of a literal reading of prone, is beyond me. Unless of course the target is "immune to be knocked prone" via a rule. I would also think that targets would be given that if that was the intention. This could open other issues with other creature also, as mentioned above flying/swimming creatures.
I don't see it unreasonable that you "knock prone" an snake or an ooze, and that snake or ooze needs to use it move action to relieve itself of the the prone state.
I have no issue with it personally as a GM. I would also have no issue if someone houseruled particular targets could not be knocked prone, if that was a stated house rule.
I gotcha. :)
I guess it's just because the "Prone" condition seems so literally spelled out to me? That's my sticking point. It seems like there are some very specific actions that lead to some very specific consequences that just don't jibe in my mind when applied to things that don't seem like they would be affected by those actions.
But really, just like you said, if somebody wanted to run things diffferently, I wouldn't have an issue if somebody wanted to have a snake knocked prone, adapting prone to a slightly different interpretation.
My snake, on the other hand, he'd complain something fierce! :P
I've said "prone" so many times now, it sounds funny to me...
I'm just amazed that we've made it to 77 posts talking about people's snakes being prone and standing up, etc., etc. without somebody suggesting something inappropriate and crude...oh drat!
There goes that streak.
The list of abilities that can render something, be it snake-like or not, prone is I think the important and relatively glossed over part of this discussion.
Hideous Laughter, Grease, Falling Damage, Overrun, a few Force effects, being Bull-Rushed into a solid object, etc. None of these have special tags rendering them inneffective or non-operative on snake-like creatures.
Prone is a status, you either are, or you are not, there is no nebulous in-between state of semi-prone. If you are prone, you can only crawl 5 feet. Snakes are listed as having speeds higher than 5. To use such a speed, the snake must not be prone. Therefore the basic Bestiary stats assume that a snake operates in a not-prone state.
It is established that snakes are immune to trip, but not to the prone status, or to any other effects that can render a creature prone. The only logical conclusion is that a snake which is operating normally can be rendered prone by actions and effects as long as they are not trip attempts.
Those who cite reality have already established conflicting testimony, and I won't both inserting my own into the mix. The fact is, the rules operate quite clearly and cleanly in this instance. If you disagree, feel free to houserule them. But accept that that is what you are doing, no more or less so than if you were to say DR applied to falling damage (which I do, because I find it reasonable, but it is a houserule).
The list of abilities that can render something, be it snake-like or not, prone is I think the important and relatively glossed over part of this discussion.
Hideous Laughter, Grease, Falling Damage, Overrun, a few Force effects, being Bull-Rushed into a solid object, etc. None of these have special tags rendering them inneffective or non-operative on snake-like creatures.
Prone is a status, you either are, or you are not, there is no nebulous in-between state of semi-prone. If you are prone, you can only crawl 5 feet. Snakes are listed as having speeds higher than 5. To use such a speed, the snake must not be prone. Therefore the basic Bestiary stats assume that a snake operates in a not-prone state.
It is established that snakes are immune to trip, but not to the prone status, or to any other effects that can render a creature prone. The only logical conclusion is that a snake which is operating normally can be rendered prone by actions and effects as long as they are not trip attempts.
Those who cite reality have already established conflicting testimony, and I won't both inserting my own into the mix. The fact is, the rules operate quite clearly and cleanly in this instance. If you disagree, feel free to houserule them. But accept that that is what you are doing, no more or less so than if you were to say DR applied to falling damage (which I do, because I find it reasonable, but it is a houserule).
So it's a house rule. My own "logical conclusion" mandates that I not force a snake to take a move action to stand up to attack.
|
|
While rules leave out (and thus do not apply an exception) to the idea that a snake can be prone. I have had this same stye argument about snakes in armor (which the RAW states can also happen by not stating that it cannot), and was told that I was in the wrong and that it is unrealistic for snakes to be in armor.
Since prone is a specific list of bonuses/penalties that mostly revolve around a legged creature not standing on their legs, I think that prone is an incorrect condition basis for a snake myself (RAI). Now, lacking in something better, I would have to claim a house rule to make things immune to tripping, immune to prone.
For example. How does a snake (or gelatinous cube since it also fits), voluntarily make itself "prone" in such a way to gain the following:
–4 penalty to-hit
cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)
+4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks
–4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
requires a move action to "stand-up" to attack (provoking an AoO).
the snake is not going to "roll-over" to do that. Rolling over would not make it any harder to hit from range as it normally would be.
People keep describing real snakes as being tossed or other things and thus being "prone". to me, these sound more like the snakes were "staggered" more than "prone".
I say this as the snake is still going to be able to attack things (no real minus to hit), have the same ranged ac as normal (still same target height), and still able to defend against melee as well. the biggest hindrance is movement.
Now lets look at staggered:
Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition.
so, you can either attack, or move, but not both.
So, my house rule is this:
Things immune to tripping are also immune to prone. Apply the "staggered" condition for 1 round instead.
(sorry for the rambling, I am the unlucky on-call for my team this week and got paged in the middle of typing this.)
the RAW states can also happen by not stating that it cannot
And this is the very downfall of the people who look too far into rules. Just because it doesn't say that it can't doesn't automatically mean that it can.
This is a DM interpretation call, plain and simple. If there isn't a RAW, the DM does their best to determine RAI or insert personal or group preference. It does not give the player license to simply assume.
RAW is "rules as WRITTEN". If it's not written, it's not true. So saying something is RAW because it doesn't say that you can't is a dangerous paradoxical fallacy.
(can you tell I enforce and interpret regulations for a living?)
Happler as far as going prone on its on a snake could coil up or in some species flatten out to gain those benefits. As for an ooze watch the old ghostbusters cartoon slimmer could easily flatten out to a puddle and could be forced to when slammed into solid objects( hey look bull rush). So going prone on its own isn't an issue in either case.
the RAW states can also happen by not stating that it cannotAnd this is the very downfall of the people who look too far into rules. Just because it doesn't say that it can't doesn't automatically mean that it can.
This is a DM interpretation call, plain and simple. If there isn't a RAW, the DM does their best to determine RAI or insert personal or group preference. It does not give the player license to simply assume.
RAW is "rules as WRITTEN". If it's not written, it's not true. So saying something is RAW because it doesn't say that you can't is a dangerous paradoxical fallacy.
(can you tell I enforce and interpret regulations for a living?)
What he is saying is we have rules for armor and we haves rules for making armor for non standard creatures and we have rules for snakes. At no point do any of those prohibit snakes from wearing barding. So raw says I can make armor for a snake and that the snake can in fact wear it.
For example. How does a snake (or gelatinous cube since it also fits), voluntarily make itself "prone" in such a way to gain the following:
–4 penalty to-hit
cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)
+4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks
–4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
requires a move action to "stand-up" to attack (provoking an AoO).the snake is not going to "roll-over" to do that. Rolling over would not make it any harder to hit from range as it normally would be.
A snake or a gelatinous cube do not have the intelligence level to strategize like that. Additionally a typical snake has a +'s natural armor class, which comes from it's body type/stance I would think.
I guess my whole issue is, if x creature were immune to the prone condition, I am assuming it would be listed in their description. Paizo in generally does a really good job with the product, and I assume this is not being overlooked.
Again because of the nature of the game, if it were houseruled that certain creature could not be made prone, I have no issue with that (as with any houserule that is presented for any GM's game).
Can a walrus be tripped? Even if it pushes itself up on its front flippers I dont think it would be prone if you pulled them out from underneath it, as a walrus on land basically moves around prone.
If a walrus cant be tripped I dont think a snake should be able to be. The DM would just be favouring the walrus and a DM should be impartial.
Thank you! It's about time someone was brave enough to call out DMs for their blatant walrus bias!
I would think this is obvious.
A snake can be made prone if you knock it on its back. I'm not sure why this is so controversial.
|
|
I would think this is obvious.
A snake can be made prone if you knock it on its back. I'm not sure why this is so controversial.
So, knocking a snake on it's back raises its AC vs ranged?
to state again, here is what prone gives you:
–4 penalty to-hit
cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)
+4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks
–4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
requires a move action to "stand-up" to attack (provoking an AoO).
I would think this is obvious.
A snake can be made prone if you knock it on its back. I'm not sure why this is so controversial.
So, knocking a snake on it's back raises its AC vs ranged?
to state again, here is what prone gives you:
–4 penalty to-hit
cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)
+4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks
–4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
requires a move action to "stand-up" to attack (provoking an AoO).
Sounds about right.
-4 penalty to hit = the snake is not in its natural strike position
cannot us a ranged weapon = the lack of arms makes this redundant, but lets call it a marilith: she's flat on her back or face for a moment, just as restricted as a human in the same position
+4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks = a snake that isn't rearing to strike is going to be harder to hit than a snake that is. Trying to shoot anything low to the ground is more difficult.
-4 penalty to AC against melee attacks = the snake is not in its natural combat position
requires a move action to "stand-up" to attack (provoking an AoO) = a snake knocked on it's back does not simply straighten out like a pencil and do a 180 roll to get back into position. It will likely thrash for a second as it flips itself over. During this time, it is vulnerable. Textbook AoO case.
And for those questioning the tactical acumen of a snake, fine, lets replace this with a Naga. An intelligent 20 foot long serpent, not a 4 foot viper just looking to survive.
This is a bit of an absurd post?
I think the writers of Pathfinder would agree. They wrote a system trying to recreate reality on paper, a hard task indeed. However if you expect every little situation to be covered your expecting a little much and complaining about rulebook size...where instead you need a bit of logic.
You obviously haven't flipped a snake on its back before, unless dead...cause its impossible. Perhaps a section may flip or land wrong, but I guarantee it will be ready to attack faster than you could. You can throw it too, it wont land "prone" and the second it touches the ground its moving, not stuffing around trying to get up...not when compared to a human.
If a tripped legged creature falls to the ground. Then, while involving a twist and occupying its protective and evasive limbs, it stands, requiring considerably more time. During which theres of course, no time to dodge. A snake doesnt stand in that fashion, it merely flips any section of its body that may have landed uncomfortably and in a fraction of a second in comparison to almost every other legged creature takes to stand...enough for it to never be considered prone or disadvantaged.
If you tripped a human in a fight, or any legged creature, youd jump on him cause you know hes disadvantaged. Id love to see someone try that with a snake.
"When rules cant cover it, pray your DM has logic!".
This thread fascinates me to no end. There seem to be two camps: 1) please use common sense when adjudicating the rules, and realize a snake cannot be knocked prone; 2)The rules for prone don't necessarily mean actually "lying on the ground," but not in ideal attack/defensive posture.
What fascinates me even more is that so many people continue to argue the points, as if the very number of people "voting" with their application of common sense, or the rules as written, will be able to convince the rest of the community which of these is right.
In the end they're both right. Each table will adjudicate this situation however they want, and as long as they're having fun doing it, there's nothing wrong with it.
So to answer the question in the title of the thread: Yes, they certainly can, if the GM and the table decide it as such. :)
For a snake turning from its back to its belly is about as much of a difficulty as taking one hand off of your two-handed weapon for a human.
|
I would go with prone = knocked on back for a snake. most snakes that want to attack have to coil and strike out. being upside down means it has to roll onto belly before it act.
Although the wording prone makes it hilarious to contemplate knocking a snake to the ground I would go with prone being knocked into a position that it is unable to react effectively from, basically a bad angle. snakes upside down, people (humanoids) doing a face plant and birds(dragons) knocked on their back as well. an ooze has no bad angle so can't be knocked prone...so if a ooze falls and can't land prone does it hover in the air like a cat with buttered toast on it's back?
This has to be one of the funniest threat titles i've ever read.