Dervish dance is balanced because you can't two hand it, and you can't use anything in your off hand. With this new feat you could two hand an elven curve blade, do as much damage as a greatsword, and with a few lose points into strength still power attack and greater power attack.
Also, the excuse that you could spring mythic levels upon your party at high levels so that their builds won't be able to rely on it doesn't negate the fact that mythic weapon finesse still invalidates strength. It is in no way ever balanced to have a feat or feat train that allows all the major benefits of another stat. I mean, if they added a feat train that lets you add your Strength to AC and reflex saves instead of dex, how stupid would that be?
Also, carrying capacity, really? In a world of muleback cords and bags of holding, that is never an issue.
I am sure that in a real game it is less of an issue. You could post a build and see what the chances of the dex based build is before it gets the ability in question. If the character ignores strength it still still affect his CMD. Armor also caps out with regard to what you add to AC by using dex, and the reflex is not really that important because unless dazing spell is in play taking damage from a reflex based spell is not exactly at top of things to worry about.
I really can't understand where you people (those defending the feat) are coming from. It's not balanced, clearly. Not one of you have brought up any points to the contrary. You're just calling me a whiner. It's not like it effects me as a player, it just allows me to build that much more powerful a character, and it's not like it would adversely effect me as a DM, because I could just ban the feat. All I'm doing is pointing out that it's unbalance. Are there other things that are unbalanced? of course. That doesn't mean this isn't.
Now do me a solid, and if you're going to reply, do so in a constructive way. I'm willing to have my mind changed if you make some legitimate points on the subject matter.
Balance is subjective. If you want to prove something is broken across the board then you need more than theorycrafting to do so. Post a build backed by numbers, and simulate a few combats.
A decent idea wraithstrike, but not with something as dogmatic as Dex to Damage. I guess it's nice that this option will finally make its way to the core rules line though.
So... yeah.
This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Limiting it to finesse weapons is ok, but anything past that should require most than theorycrafting, IMHO.
Mythic weapon finesse allows a player to use dexterity instead of strength for all melee attack and damage roles with finesse weapons. Essentially, it invalidates strength.
I can't imagine that any melee based character in a mythic campaign would focus on strength over dexterity when it's as easy as a couple feats to gain all the damage benefits of strength with the defensive and skill benefits of dexterity. Combined with the mythic champion abilities that remove the dexterity caps on armor, and strength is even less attractive. Personally I have always felt that there is a good balance between the benefits of strength and dexterity, and the idea of a feat that so drastically tips the scales in favor one over the other just seems.. not well thought out.
Dervish Dance has been around for a while, it does the same thing for Scimitar users. It can be had by a Rogue by lvl 2 if built for that purpose.
The Agile weapon enchantment is more recent but it's only a +1 Enchantment and allows a Character's Dex Mod to be used for damage in place of Str.
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Weight -
DESCRIPTION
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
So, no I don't think Mythic Weapon Finesse is unbalanced. In fact I would say it's a little ridiculous to think it is.
Strength is a wee bit different from those examples.
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And no ability to power attack? Which just put your DPS at a piddle compared to a STR based build.
With a starting ability of 10 you only need to raise it by 3 points to be able to take power attack. +2 to stength magic item and 1 stat raise. Not hard at all to achieve.
And:
Piranha Strike (Combat)
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
Paizo Peripheral
This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
DEX to damage is fine its not like you get 1.5x DEX to dmg for a 2h weapon nor are you getting the 1.5x 2h bonus from power attack since your using piranah strike. So the big strength damage builds are still out damaging you
your just trading the top end damage for slightly more AC and spending Mythic feats to do it ... what's the problem again ?
Don't forget weapon finesse is still limited to using finessable weapons to get the attack benefit ;)
And no ability to power attack? Which just put your DPS at a piddle compared to a STR based build.Piranha Strike (Combat)
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
Paizo Peripheral
This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
Bolded for emphasis. It doesn't work on anything other than light weapons.
Suddenly suddenly the exotic weapon proficiency feat for an aldori dueling sword becomes more and more attractive again.
After the playtest I did it was not Dex to damage that shined it was
Surprise Strike (Ex)
You can expend one use of mythic power to make a melee or ranged attack at a target within 30 feet as a swift action (in addition to any other attacks you might make this round). When you make a surprise strike, the target is considered flat-footed regardless of any class features or abilities it might have, and you add your trickster tier as an insight bonus on the attack roll. Damage from this attack bypasses damage reduction.
My Rogue at critical points in the game did not have to wait for a flanking buddy to be affective she had 5 times a day to make someone flat-footed against her.
Dex to damage was nice but having more opportunity to get in sneak attacks ended up being the better option.
Remember, even at 8 strength and 24 dex, it's only 7 damage (only requires 2 dice of Sneak Attack to do better on average).
People really ought to look at math before screaming something is broken.
My point exactly, Suprise Strike was more useful overall when I play tested this.
As it gave me more opportunity to get my sneak attack in, I'm not saying Weapon Finesse (Mythic) was a strong choice because it was, just not over powered with the build I used. I finally got to play a true rapier wielding swashbuckler type rogue and I had a lot of fun.
Limiting it to finesse weapons is ok, but anything past that should require most than theorycrafting, IMHO.So... yeah.
This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Agreed. It takes a mythic feat AND a regular feat jsut to be doing somethign str based builds have been doing forever. Oh you can have a higher AC and Reflex saves? Cool beans! I took combat reflexes and dazing assault with my extra feats. How about you?
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So... yeah.
This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Please tread carefully with this. Strength is already one of the weakest stats in the game. Please don't invalidate it more.
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Please tread carefully with this. Strength is already one of the weakest stats in the game. Please don't invalidate it more.So... yeah.
This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I don't see where strength is being invalidated, sorry from actually playtesting this and having other characters with either Dervish Dance, or Agile Weapon enchants it does not break the game, the option is actually weaker that a lot of the other options out there such as Suprise Strike...as a swift action and a Mythic Power point I get to make a person flat-footed and bypass DR! My rogue says Yes Please. Fleet Charge spend a mythic power and a swift action to move gain an attack (and bypass DR) and still full attack that round? Again my Warrior and Rogue both say YES!!!!
When put up against what Mythic is supposed to bring to the table Weapon Finesse (Mythic) is hardley OP.
Please tread carefully with this. Strength is already one of the weakest stats in the game. Please don't invalidate it more.So... yeah.
This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerI don't see where strength is being invalidated, sorry from actually playtesting this and having other characters with either Dervish Dance, or Agile Weapon enchants it does not break the game, the option is actually weaker that a lot of the other options out there such as Suprise Strike...as a swift action and a Mythic Power point I get to make a person flat-footed and bypass DR! My rogue says Yes Please. Fleet Charge spend a mythic power and a swift action to move gain an attack (and bypass DR) and still full attack that round? Again my Warrior and Rogue both say YES!!!!
When put up against what Mythic is supposed to bring to the table Weapon Finesse (Mythic) is hardley OP.
Oh let's not even discuss mythic Power Attack.
Mythic weapon finnesse got you about 3 or four extra damage you might not have gotten otherwise.
Mythic Power attack netted us an extra 6 to 9. Oh and power attack damage is doubled on a crit. My falchion fighter (Who can autoconfirm crits btw)just gibbed that dragon. And that one. Oh and that one too.
It may have gotten me +2-3 damage but it was not nearly as effective as getting to make my opponent flat-footed and bypass it;s DR... More opportunity to get off a sneak attack out weighs +2-3 damage every time. At least for the Mythic Rogue I put together. The Trickster Strikes, and the Trickster Combat Path abilities were much better in my opinion.
I still needed to have a minimum of a 13 to use Power Attack (Piranha Strike does not work with a rapier as it is not a light weapon.) So Strength still is not useless, and I like to be able to move at 30 ft so I need Strength for Carrying Cap.
Again even for my DEX build I still have to put points in Str making it far from a DUMP STAT.
It did not make me do more damage than a 2 handed fighter power attack/cleave build. I was still a very good back up frontline damage dealer.
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I don't think Strength is weak. Thousands of players are still tubing their Charisma for 1-2 more points of Strength.
I also don't think Mythic Finesse is that broken. It takes two feats, still only applies to finesse weapons, and could be obtained by a +1 weapon bonus according to the SRD. It can't be combined with Power Attack, which means greatswords and greataxes still pack the meanest punch in in the game. I'm not afraid of that being busted out by my players. What's that compared to mythic meteor swarm or channel power or enduring blessing?
I don't think Strength is weak. Thousands of players are still tubing their Charisma for 1-2 more points of Strength.
I also don't think Mythic Finesse is that broken. It takes two feats, still only applies to finesse weapons, and could be obtained by a +1 weapon bonus according to the SRD. It can't be combined with Power Attack, which means greatswords and greataxes still pack the meanest punch in in the game. I'm not afraid of that being busted out by my players. What's that compared to mythic meteor swarm or channel power or enduring blessing?
Agile is not in the core rulebook line.
I like the idea of making a viable Elf Warrior with an Elven Curve Blade.
Hmmm... so, the problem is that one group of players are saying "but this makes Strength near-obsolete" and another group is saying "well maybe so, but it FINALLY makes Dex-fighter builds okay."
It seems to me that both are true, and that there is a simple solution.
Give super Str builds an equally awesome mythic feat! All it has right now is Power Attack, which doesn't really require much Str.
Even in the "old" form where mythic weapon finesse would have been applieable to a longspear or greatsword, it is far from broken.
STR is never invalidated if you play the game by its rules, because there are climb and swim and there is encumbrance. A character with 10 STR is already fairly limited by what he can carry and will probably have a lower AC a long time untill magical mithril armors and other stuff are available. Even then it´s questionable if the AC will be that high. Also handy haversack and holding backs are not that light and early available in game, as others have pointed out before. STR applies to all combat maneuvers without taking a feat like agile maneuvers, another point.
Now you could have that spear wielding bard with flagbearer that does some damage and and doesn´t feel like a pure support station himself. It´s not even about rogues.
As to say, even before there was the possibility to take exotic weapon proficiency aldori dueling sword and invest heavily into the Aldori swordlord PrC, which allows you to add DEX to damage at first level. Before they nerfed it, the dueling sword just let you apply DEX to damage while wielding it with both hands, like it still does in herolab actually.
I don't think Strength is weak. Thousands of players are still tubing their Charisma for 1-2 more points of Strength.
I also don't think Mythic Finesse is that broken. It takes two feats, still only applies to finesse weapons, and could be obtained by a +1 weapon bonus according to the SRD. It can't be combined with Power Attack, which means greatswords and greataxes still pack the meanest punch in in the game. I'm not afraid of that being busted out by my players. What's that compared to mythic meteor swarm or channel power or enduring blessing?
Agile is not in the core rulebook line.
I like the idea of making a viable Elf Warrior with an Elven Curve Blade.
Agile may not be in the Core Rules, that does not mean it does not get used. It also does the same thing just costs a +1 bonus.
I'd even go for this wording for Mythic Finesse, Choose 1 weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, you replace Strength modifiers for Dexterity modifiers on attack and damage rolls with that weapon.
It makes me sad I can't make a viable Dexterity samurai who uses a katana...
I think as long as the Mythic Feat only applies to Finesse weapons its fair. I want to roll up a switch hitting elven curve blade/longbow elf warrior which sounds awesome.
Go Legolas!
Actually, I really like the idea of just throwing out some more regular/mythic feats that requires a decent Str prerequisite. I can't think of a single PC feat that requires more than Str 13- whereas I can think of at least a dozen Dex feats... That's part of the problem.
A good start would be making mythic power attack require Str 17 or something. Or how about a mythic feat that lets you wield oversize weapons without penalty (ie human wielding large greatsword)?
But then, lets not make everything be about damage for Str... The ability to apply certain conditions or do combat maneuvers as a part of a regular attack (ie still doing the damage) could be one possibility.
And the point still remains that Dex builds are using resources to catch up to Str builds and Str builds can close the gap on the normal Dex advantages with a lot of mythic options (many of which are free).
The question becomes how Weapon Finesse (Mythic) works with weapons. Does it work exactly like Strength?
Elven Curve Blade = x1-1/2 DEX Damage
That's what I'm excited about. It makes the agile warriors viable.
It does not state it handles it any different than weapon finnesse it just adds Dex to damage, do you get a bonus for wielding a Rapier or a light weapon two-handed then it should apply.
You are an expert with weapons that rely on your agility.
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, 1st mythic tier.
Benefit: You can use your Dexterity score on all melee
attack rolls and damage rolls instead of your Strength
score.
This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
So, the feat should read:
Okay, you get five mythic feats total if you advance through all ten tiers. This is one of five. You're still restricted to the Max DEX on armor unless you spend three path abilities to ignore Max DEX on heavy armor. Just like the original Weapon Finesse, its a feat tax to play a classic fantasy character type.
Did you add 1.5 times their Dex? Because you're not supposed to.
Sounds like I'll be doing some playtesting tomorrow.
Did you add 1.5 times their Dex? Because you're not supposed to.Mythic feat? He most certainly is.
As for Strength comparison:
How's his Carrying Capacity?
What about his CMD?
What "3" feats did you give up on your two handed barbarian?
Why did you switch his style to urban barbarian, and what was his original build?There's a slew of missing information.
What gear you -would- have on your STR based one, both equipped and carried
Finally, What mystic feat would you have taken in place of Weapon Finesse (Mythic)?
I understand the mythic feat but as written, you can only multiply your Strength by 1.5 for two handing, not Dex. I'd actually prefer it stay like that personally and we keep Mythic Weapon Finesse the way it is. That way dex fighters still get good damage and strength fighters aren't considered 'obsolete'. And it'd promote people using it more for dex fighting and two weapon fighting than using it for Strength-like damage and good AC/Reflex save.
We could use the exact version of the feat posted to playtest it appropriately opposed to playtesting the admittedly older version. No need to assume the exact wording of it.
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I dropped blind fight, improved blind fight and toughness. The mythic feat I dropped was mythic toughness. I only had two barbarian levels; and the way mythic weapon finesse is stated you could 1.5 times dex because it says you use dex in place of strength for all melee attacks.
Regardless, either way, dex does not need a buff. There are plenty of effective, or even over powered dex based builds. Adding this feat simply tips the balance of all melee fighters in favor of dex.
Sure, they could add other strength based feats to balance it out, but then it's just a pointless arms race when it makes more sense to simply remove the feat.
So, you avoided mentioning the extra hit points and gave the barb two feats that contribute nothing to the numbers.
Yet you only posted numbers.
Way to make a skewed representation of the feat...
Right, I'm off to do some playtesting at mid and low levels!
RAW it says replace STR with DEX on all attack and damage rolls with melee weapons.
Then I think the feat should say that it doesn't get the 1.5x damage. I'd be okay with that so it still gives STR an edge while DEX fighters still get good damage on their weapons.
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Right on. I like the rules as written, with this understanding. I wondered at first whether this would cause Dex-based fighters to only ever use weapons you could combine PA and WF, but then I learned that's an old rule and there are no restrictions on Power Attacking with light weapons. SO now I am really convinced this is the way to go.
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Not at all. Sword and board fighters will still rely on Strength. Strength related skill checks don't happen as often as sense motive, but a bad SM doesn't send you plummeting 200 feet into the river below the rope bridge. For all the concern over how terrible the Strength attribute is, are folk really having table after table shun Strength-based characters? I haven't seen it. I still see tons of greatswords, sword and shield, grapplers and composite longbows.