His CON is increased, and the Demon turns him into a Goblinoid that will be attacked on sight in any civilized area.
Fixed this one for you. Hobgoblins are Usually LE.
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Just a reminder: in Pathfinder, a +1 inherent bonus to one ability score is one of the default effects of Wish that is supposed to be protected against being perverted. In everyone's rush to find extra ways to retroactively change what the demon's wish did, nobody has mentioned this.
Very true. I'd not recommend retroactively changing what happened. But twisting the effects of a wish spell cast by a demon should be standard. If the GM was going to honestly give the PC an uncorrupted wish, with no ill effects, before the PC broke his word, then the GM needs to stick with that decision.
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I don't follow the general opinion that wishes should be "twisted".
There are other ways to exact revenge upon a character who performs an evil act. It's not necessary to somehow go back in time and alter the execution of a wish.
Find some other way to resolve the situation that makes sense in game without being an obvious GM fiat revenge activity.
Absolutely. Wishes are wishes, and wishes are meant to be granted. If the wisher wishes for something that will in itself cause ruin, pain and suffering, fine. That's what the storybooks are all about.
Here though, the wish is being granted by a creature which always corrupts the wishes it grants to take effect in a way which causes the most destruction possible. It's not that the player is getting a wish that causes it to be corrupted, it's that the player is wishing upon a demon.
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Again, Glabrezus twist wishes. To debate the value of the wish twisting is irrelevant. The wish would be twisted regardless of weather the terms were honoured. But the terms being violated can't help.
Would the thing twist a wish knowing it would die if it tried anything funny?
Would the thing twist a wish knowing it would die if it tried anything funny?
Possibly. It would probably take extra care on the 'negative sides not being immediately apparent' part.
Yeah, that's what I also figured. That will make it a bit easier for both sides.
Try a subtle trick (related to health) that will affect the PC in a negative way, but don't overdo it.
I'd say that this scenario turned from people assuming "the DM is a jerk" to figuring out a clever curse on a careless PC.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If I may?
Don't do a thing. It becomes a hook. To use a TV reference, think of D'Hoffryn. Other demons (especially demons based on betrayal) the party encounters compliment him on his betrayal. "You should see the look on Tshalandar's face! I mean really, you should. The boss flayed it off of him and has it displayed on the wall next to the water cooler."
Possibly even have 'the boss' make an appearance (Balor, advanced Glabrezu, etc) and play up the friendly nature. Offer him a job. "Oh well, here's my talisman. You change your mind, give us a chant."
Don't leave the forces of good out. While radiating evil and paladins dropping from the sky to attack is a bit much, celestial beings being reluctant to help him or his allies. (Wizard summons hound archon "Sick em!" Hound archon goes for party member. "No the other him!") divinations refer to the character as "Betrayer of betrayers, yet to be betrayed himself" etc.
He made the wish, you didn't think to pervert it at the time. Let him have his wish.
Or to use another popular media quote.
Rufus: You have not thought through the consequences of your actions!
A couple of other suggestions:
1. He now radiates Evil as a Demon of his HD. This doesn't have any affects on things like Smite Evil, but it will set off alignment based traps and divination. This could have large repercussions if your characters interact somewhat often with good aligned clergy. Also, Demons (and Demons only) can recognize the character for what he is.
2. When the character gets down to HD or lower hit points (ie only those hit points he was able to obtain with that inherent +1 Con), some part of the demonic energy that is within him tries to take over. Maybe have him under a confusion like effect for as long as he is like this +1d4 rounds afterwards. But, I'd change the confusion rules to this- 1-25: act normally, 26-50: do nothing, 51-75: attack nearest living thing, 76-100: cause as much rampant destruction as possible. Also, they don't have the caveat of having to attack whatever last attacked them instead of rolling.
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Ultimate Magic: Glabrezu are treacherous demons who peddle in secrets that destroy, and to bring them to the Material Plane as interested negotiators, the caster must know secrets that can destroy influential families, bring down nations, or otherwise befoul the bedrock of society.
Yeah, no good will come from a Glab's wish. Maybe make the local lord or king grow sickly while the adventurer grows stronger. Have the lord's minions track the effect to the PC. Instant new enemy. Fun new adventures to be had as they try to prove their innocence.
Kingsguard: You are hereby charged with armed assault against the high lord king via fell magics, and sentenced to death for crimes of high treason against our beloved nation.
Rogue: I'm innocent I tell you! The demon promised me good health! I knew not that it would be stolen from the crown!
Kingsguard: Ah, so you consort with demons as well do you? May the gods have mercy on your soul. I say the axe is too good for you. I saw we burn this one at the stake!
*hauls prisoner away*
First off a bit of a /rant
To those who are thinking this shouldn't be twisted! I'm of the opinion that if you aren't twisting this wish by this creature you are doing it WRONG. Read the dang description (it's been posted on this thread at least three times) and stop being wanting to be coddled as a player or coddling your players as a GM. /end of rant
Okay as far as twisting the wish, he asked to become healthier in regards to constitution and seems to like a few of the examples people have tossed your way in regards to demonic features, cannibalism, and whatnot.
Of course you don't want to hurt the rest of the party and give him even more power by draining their CON scores.
What I'd do is:
1) Give him some sort of parasite placed inside his head that feeds upon his soul, it grants him the +1 CON bonus, but this parasite is CE and as such makes the rogue show up as CE to everyone who detects his alignment. The consequence here is that any LG pally will be trying to hunt his evil arse down and kill him as he's registering so evil they can't stand it.
2) Slowly this parasite will turn his alignment more and more EVIL, it will put voices in his head and cause him to do things that he normally wouldn't do. Think sentient weapon with a CE ego and follow those rules to have him roll to keep sane/current alignment. Eventually, it could drive him mad (I mean totally batsh!t crazy!).
Only ways to remove it is to perform some kind of super good act for a good deity or use another wish that is very specific.
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Kingsguard: You are hereby charged with armed assault against the high lord king via fell magics, and sentenced to death for crimes of high treason against our beloved nation.
Rogue: I'm innocent I tell you! The demon promised me good health! I knew not that it would be stolen from the crown!
Kingsguard: Ah, so you consort with demons as well do you? May the gods have mercy on your soul. I say the axe is too good for you. I saw we burn this one at the stake!*hauls prisoner away*
Several times it has been suggested not to alter things (i.e. pervert the Wish) because the DM didn't think to do so at that moment.
Nonsense!
Very few, if any, DM's always see all the consequences of PC activity upon the adventure and storyline or always make the right call on some event or rule/ruling in their games within moments of it happening. They rule things wrong, allow a spell to do stuff it shouldn't or place treasure that turns out to be overpowered or otherwise goof somehow. I would expect my DM once aware of a 'mistake' to come up with a solution appropriate to the circumstances. In this case because of the description of a Glabrezu the Wish should be twisted somehow not because the granting of +1 con is an inappropriate use of a Wish but because the demon would corrupt it. This isn't a Wish granted by a Ring of Wishes, a Luck Blade or a Good Ally. The thread has many excellent ideas on how to twist the Wish that would work well. Any that use it as a hook for further story and adventure and therefore potential FUN as the story unfolds is the best way to go to 'correct' the original encounter. At least it would be for me.
EXACTLY!!! This is the way I believe in how things should work as well. The consequences of the wish could easily (very easily) take time to develop and become clear to the person who did the wishing. Wishes with strings are not IMMEDIATELY apparent, which could make for a wonderful plot hook or even a whole adventure.
To everyone out there, keep an open mind on how things like this can change the course for the campaign for the BETTER, because choices and actions have consequences which could make the campaign more fun. Adventures takes on cool twists and turns with the addition of player-centric stories, they can become much grittier and make for very memorable campaigns!
I like the idea of turning him into a gnome. Most people don't like gnomes...but then he gets some sweet bonus CON! And most of his gear (if he was medium sized to begin with) will need to be repurchased. Then have someone show up that wanted to reward his previous person but since they can't find him...give the reward to someone else in the party.
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Plot hooks are good and all, but the one thing the DM has to avoid is making the player feel like he's on the receiving end of an arbitrary punishment.
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Given how Wish is worded in Pathfinder, I wouldn't. Now, given what he did to get the wish. I think a certain rogue just moved his way up to the top of most of the demon worshipping cultists hit lists. And they wont stop until he is sacrificed on the altar to have his newly enhanced constitutioned body to serve as the resting place of the creature he hath slain...
Glabrezus are too weak to have cults worshipping them.
I like the idea of turning him into a gnome. Most people don't like gnomes...but then he gets some sweet bonus CON! And most of his gear (if he was medium sized to begin with) will need to be repurchased. Then have someone show up that wanted to reward his previous person but since they can't find him...give the reward to someone else in the party.
This seems like more of a Fey response than a Demon response, let alone a Glabrezu response.
I like the cannibalism responses to a degree. It's a lot like Richard from Looking for Group, who has to kill innocents to retain is power as a Warlock.
What I might consider instead is sleep-killing non-allies while in towns. The rogue gets up in the night and gears up while still actually sleeping. If nobody in the party stops him, he'll wander off, kill someone, and come back. If the party is not keeping watch while in towns, this obviously becomes a serious problem. If the party consistently wakes him up, then he starts trying to sneak out or otherwise incapacitate the watcher (non-lethal because they're allies and because Glabs can look for long-term destructive). If the party straps him down at night, he might Escape Artist out or be affected by a Nightmare spell.
Glabrezus are too weak to have cults worshipping them.
Uhm, what? You've got humans being worshipped in real life, we're talking about a creature that could topple cities.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Several times it has been suggested not to alter things (i.e. pervert the Wish) because the DM didn't think to do so at that moment.
Nonsense!
Fie on your nonsense.
Now I'm all for slaying demons but if there was ever a wish that needed to be harshly twisted about this would be the one.
Who's got an extra helping of nasty for me?
This isn't "A demon's wish is always twisted." This is, "I granted the wish and then he surprised me by killing the demon. Because he killed the demon I want to corrupt the reward after the fact."
DM Sour grapes. Personally I find it funny in killing a being "form[ed] from the souls of the treasonous, the false, and the subversive—souls of mortals who, in life, bore false witness or used treachery and deceit to ruin the lives of others" by using treachery and deceit.
The Wish shouldn't be twisted because the player ganked the Demon and that is specifically what he is asking for.
It can be used for all sorts of plot hooks, and should be a learning experience for the GM. Like I said above, betraying a being made of treachery and deceit is going to be a 'water cooler topic' and leads to a lot more plot hooks.
Now going forward...
Ok, so as per usual my players will be fed to a Tarrasque if they read this post.
In the last session our party's CN rogue agreed to spare a Glabrezu demon's life if it granted him a wish. He wished for more constitution (+1). Now immediately following the wish being granted the rogue summarily executed the demon, (which most of the CG party members found no issue with)
Now I'm all for slaying demons but if there was ever a wish that needed to be harshly twisted about this would be the one.
Who's got an extra helping of nasty for me?
Have the +1 Con come weekly (and make the rogue happy) and have it come from the primary ability scores of his companions.
Have the +1 Con come weekly (and make the rogue happy) and have it come from the primary ability scores of his companions.Ok, so as per usual my players will be fed to a Tarrasque if they read this post.
In the last session our party's CN rogue agreed to spare a Glabrezu demon's life if it granted him a wish. He wished for more constitution (+1). Now immediately following the wish being granted the rogue summarily executed the demon, (which most of the CG party members found no issue with)
Now I'm all for slaying demons but if there was ever a wish that needed to be harshly twisted about this would be the one.
Who's got an extra helping of nasty for me?
I do NOT agree with this AT ALL, the rest of the party should not be punished for the Rogue's actions. The evil twist from using the wish from this demon should rest solely on the Rogue's shoulders. This suggestion is a very bad one.
Glabrezus are too weak to have cults worshipping them.Uhm, what? You've got humans being worshipped in real life, we're talking about a creature that could topple cities.
Any pissed off spellcaster with spells above like level 3-4 or can level a city on a bad day. That kind of power is yawn inducingly common on Golarion.
If you let the demon grant the wish with out twisting it in the first place you are doing it wrong. It is against the demon's nature to play a bargain straight and not try to screw everyone involved. If the wish had come from another source I would say the twist just for killing would be inappropriate but the twist should have occurred regardless of the rogues conduct after words.
i like the health-nut idea...nice gradual build:
- starts out as being picky about what he eats
- soon he's paranoid about it to the point where he wont eat or drink food except what he carries with him
- he's obsessive about the health he's received: if he loses even just 1hp from a hangmail he's bothering the cleric for healing
- eventually he's so concerned about preserving his 'health' (hit points) that he cant even jump into melee without making a WILL save
- except of course if its combat with another wish-granting devil, because like any addict he's jonesing for another wish and will do just about anything to get one
- then give the Wizard a ring of 1 wish and watch the fireworks!!
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The health nut idea sounds to me like it wouldn't work in theory. It has a lot of the GM telling the player "you feel like this" "you want that" in it. Hijacking the player's control over his character never ends well. It just makes the player resentful.
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The wish shouldn't be twisted because the rogue killed the demon. That's really too bad for the demon, but he'd have done the same thing.
The wish should be twisted because the demon always twists wishes. The GM was just too overwhelmed at the moment, so a slow-acting twist that only reveals itself later is ideal.
This wasn't a player being clever. This was a player being greedy and quickly reaching for something desirable, without wondering if it might go bad. Now, the demons don't object to you being greedy - that's where new demons come from.
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Should the other players be spared the pain of the twist? Why? Demons aren't fair. Demons try to be as unfair as they can. Don't punish the wicked, punish someone else; double the injustice. The guilty go on committing crimes, and the victims either perish or learn that only evil pays.
Tie his additional health the the health of the CG character who broke a good faith agreement and killed the Glabrezu. When one gets hit, they both take a portion of the damage, while healing only affects them one at a time...
Tie his additional health the the health of the CG character who broke a good faith agreement and killed the Glabrezu. When one gets hit, they both take a portion of the damage, while healing only affects them one at a time...
I fail to see how giving the rogue and one other party member a permanent bond of the same sort as an Oracle Revelation is in any way a penalty unless you specifically kidnap one of the players and continuously torture and heal him.
Tie his additional health the the health of the CG character who broke a good faith agreement and killed the Glabrezu. When one gets hit, they both take a portion of the damage, while healing only affects them one at a time...I fail to see how giving the rogue and one other party member a permanent bond of the same sort as an Oracle Revelation is in any way a penalty unless you specifically kidnap one of the players and continuously torture and heal him.
Does it need to be catastrophically bad?
He gains greater health. But the twist is he gains it at the expense of the guy who broke the covenant. It's effective without breaking the game.
No, what I'm saying is that it's actually a benefit. It's practically crit immunity and it greatly increases the effectiveness of Channel Energy.
Plus, the CN rogue who made the wish is the same guy who broke the covenant. It's not two different characters.
In the last session our party's CN rogue agreed to spare a Glabrezu demon's life if it granted him a wish. He wished for more constitution (+1). Now immediately following the wish being granted the rogue summarily executed the demon, (which most of the CG party members found no issue with)
Plus, the CN rogue who made the wish is the same guy who broke the covenant. It's not two different characters.
In the last session our party's CN rogue agreed to spare a Glabrezu demon's life if it granted him a wish. He wished for more constitution (+1). Now immediately following the wish being granted the rogue summarily executed the demon, (which most of the CG party members found no issue with)
Ah, yes. I misread that part, apparently.
the demon used his own power to grant the increase in health.
possibly the demon used his own health to do the increase, for 2 reasons:
1) in the case of the player being a stupidly honest person as mortals are so prone to being, it will provide me an easier way to track him, kill his friends and family then slowly torture him to death.
2) in the case of the little cheating bastard still kills me (no one said demons are not hypocrites :) i have a portion of my essence inside him, able to possibly someday come back and possess him, and make him watch while i use his own body to kill all his friends and family.
either way, i win!
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The glabrezu wish is a "Monkey's Paw" type of wish. For those not in the know the Monkey's Paw is the original definitive wish artifact tale by J.W. Jacobs
But in short a Monkey's Paw is a fetish that grants wishes that can ONLY come true in a horrific way. The couple wishes for money to complete the payment on their house, but it arrives as a death settlement for their son who is killed the next day working at a quarry. They then wish for their son back from the dead, but his impending arrival is heralded by a knocking of such horror that they wish him back to death.
Glabrezu Wishes are that way, they are ALL monkey's paw wishes because that's the kind of wish granter they inherently are.
Excellent example!
Basically, if the GM was running the Glabrezu's wish any other way, he was running the Glabrezu wrong. I'm assuming he was running the Glabrezu correctly and thus corrupting the wish is appropriate, even retroactively.
Granted, the OP does seem to imply he was allowing the wish to be granted without any sort of corruption and changed his mind after the PC went back on his word. If this is the case, then the GM should just admit the player got the best of him and move on. I doubt there will be other demons who'll agree to perform any service for the PCs upon promise of sparing their lives after this anyway.
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Glabrezus are too weak to have cults worshipping them.
Glabrezu's are CR 13, which probably puts them in the top 99.99 percentile of powerful creatures. Given that the average citizen is probably CR 0 - CR1, a not worshiping a Glabrezu who demands it would quickly bring an end to a large swath of people. Given that a tacky scifi writer can muster a religion predicated on dropping ghosts into a volcano, surely any Glabrezu would be more then able to manage a sycophantic following.
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Ah, post 100, to be wasted and never read as the page rolls over...
The GMG has a really great 1 pager on wishes. That their really should be a stratification of wishes depending on their source, For example a arcane wish cast by a mortal spell caster be fairly strictly limited by the spell description, but also largely interpreted as intended, as being cast by a min Int 19 character, even if the player says it wrong, it is the character probably didn't. If the wish went beyond the power of the spell, then it would do its best to execute the wish within reason, without absurd negative consequences.
'Greater' wishes, like that from a deity or artifact which may be able to go beyond the power of the spell wish, and would also likely be honored in spirit if not in word (so long as the deity or artifacts alignment was generally in tune.)
Then their are wish's like that of the Contract Devil, which are intended to be misinterpreted.
Still in this case I'm still in favour of the vengeance over twisting.