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"Martial Weapon Proficiency" also makes you proficient.
Nope! Or at least, not the way you want it to. (Edit: Seriously, read the feat.)
All it does is remove the non-proficient penalty.
Therefore, proficiency is equivalent to not being non-proficient in a weapon. It's worded oddly, but the meaning is clear by both RAW and RAI.
There is no feat or ability that grants you proficiency with improvised weapons.
There are several feats and abilities that remove the -4 non-proficiency penalty for using improvised weapons. This means you are proficient in them, since you are no longer non-proficient.
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This was in 3.5, but I don't see anything in PF that would preclude it...
I had a PC rogue that was also an accomplished chef. She wanted to use a cast-iron frying pan as her primary weapon (improvised club). Eventually, she wanted to have it enchanted as a weapon.
After reading the rules, I didn't see anything that would exclude the ability for someone to enhance a masterwork frying pan as a magic item, so I let her find a blacksmith to make her a special "fightin' pan" for 325 gp. The party wizard used Craft Magic Arns and Armor, and, voila, a +1 frying pan.
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The things you think about when you're taking a shower...
Remember the following things about improvised weapons:
1) improvised weapons always need to be inferior to real weapons. A one-handed improvised weapon would never do more than 1d6 damage; a two-handed improvised weapon would never do more than 2d4. They crit on a 20 and do x2 damage on a crit.
2) most improvised weapons will have lower hardness and hit points than a real weapon
3) while Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything remove the mon-proficiency penalty on improvised weapons, that's not the same as proficiency. You can't take Weapon Focus or any other weapon-based feats on an improvised weapon.
If I had a player who had a solid role-playing reason to want to specialize in an improvised weapon (like the aforementioned frying pan), I'd probably allow it after the PC used that specific improvised weapon for a level or two. I'd then make the PC take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in that specific improvised weapon.
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So, I can get a +1 Flaming Dead Puppy?
I can have the Weapon Focus(Dead Puppy), and the Weapon Specialization(Dead Puppy) feats?
What Fighter Weapon Group is Dead Puppy in?
Can I use the Dead Puppy with a Blink Back Belt?
You picked a deliberately ridiculous example, but I'm going to treat it as a serious question...
This is where the GM needs to apply a certain trait called "common sense" regarding what's OK in his or her campaign world. It's part of the difference between running a tabletop campaign and coding an MMO.
Honestly, if I had a PC who had an in-game roleplaying reason to be smacking bad guys in the face with the expertly stuffed-and-mounted carcass of his pet Corgi "Fifi," then I'd probably allow it.
Like I said in my earlier post, the character would need to pay a feat tax in order to take any weapon-related feats. In this case, he'd need to take Catch Off-Guard and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (stuffed corpse of Fifi). I'd only allow the character to take the latter after using the stuffed corpse of Fifi as his main melee weapon over the course of a level or two.
In this case, I'd call a taxidermy stuffed puppy dog a one-handed improvised melee weapon that did 1d4 of bludgeoning damage. Crit on a 20 for x2 damage. I'd say it would have hardness 2 and 10 hit points, so it would be very easy to sunder.
I'd also rule that the stuffed corpse of Fifi was a unique weapon, and if it every got destroyed, the feats spent on Exotic Weapon Proficiency (stuffed corpse of Fifi), Weapon Focus (stuffed corpse of Fifi), Weapon Specialization (stuffed corpse of Fifi), and Improved Critical (stuffed corpse of Fifi) would not apply to any other stuffed puppy corpse. Big bummer if got dropped into a vat of acid...
So, sure, why not a +1 flaming stuffed corpse of Fifi. If you were trying to hire a caster to craft the item, he'd probably either take a LOT of convincing, charge double, or both.
Improvised weapons aren't part of any Fighter Weapon Group. (Yet another reason why this is a non-optimal choice.)
I have no idea what Blink Black Belt is.
There are several feats and abilities that remove the -4 non-proficiency penalty for using improvised weapons. This means you are proficient in them, since you are no longer non-proficient.
I don't think this is quite true. The property of being an improvised weapon is inherent to the object being used as a weapon, but the property of being proficient is inherent to the user. E.g., someone trying to use a pitchfork as a trident receives a -4 penalty because a pitchfork makes a really crappy trident, regardless of the user's proficiency with tridents in general.
Now that still leaves the open question of exactly how Catch Off-Guard and the Empty Hand monk archetypes are supposed to work, which has been the subject of numerous threads (as mentioned above).
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3) while Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything remove the mon-proficiency penalty on improvised weapons, that's not the same as proficiency.
Actually, by the way the rules work: if you are not non-proficient in a weapon, then you are proficient in it.
Read the wording here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/martial-weapon-proficiency---fin al
Or here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/exotic-weapon-proficiency-combat ---final
The benefit to these feats is *not* "You are proficient in the chosen weapon". It is that you lose the non-proficiency penalty. (Most people have never read these feats, because they think they simply grant proficiency.)
The improvised weapons penalty is explicitly a non-proficiency penalty in the rules: "Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be **nonproficient** with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object."
Therefore, removing this penalty means that a person with Catch Off-Guard, etc., is proficient with improvised weapons, and can take weapon focus in it.
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Therefore, removing this penalty means that a person with Catch Off-Guard, etc., is proficient with improvised weapons, and can take weapon focus in it.
That loop of logic can't be used, as the same logic is used to oppose it.
No where does it explicitly state in RAW that you are, in any way, you are "proficient", thereby allowing it to be used as a feat prerequisite.
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Therefore, removing this penalty means that a person with Catch Off-Guard, etc., is proficient with improvised weapons, and can take weapon focus in it.That loop of logic can't be used, as the same logic is used to oppose it.
No where does it explicitly state in RAW that you are, in any way, you are "proficient", thereby allowing it to be used as a feat prerequisite.
If you don't allow Catch Off-Guard to grant proficiency, then you can't allow Martial Weapon Proficiency to grant proficiency. (Since it never actually says it grants proficiency - it just removes the non-proficient penalty, just like Catch Off-Guard.)
Since it is clearly absurd to not allow Martial Weapon Proficiency to grant proficiency, we must reject that theory.
(As I said, it's really weird, but that's how the rules are worded. Seriously - actually read Martial/Exotic Weapon Proficiency some time. Or even the armor proficiency feats.)
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Martial Weapon Proficiency specifically states:
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Whilst, Catch Off-Guard states:
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
These are not nearly as identical as you claim.
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Martial Weapon Proficiency specifically states:
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Whilst, Catch Off-Guard states:
These are not nearly as identical as you claim.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
They both give the benefit of making attacks without the non-proficient penalty. They both have a "normal" of a -4 non-proficiency penalty.
They have identical benefits, with CAG also letting you attack unarmed opponents flat-footed.
I don't know if it's actually in the FAQ or not. "Answered in FAQ" is sometimes also used for "the answer is already obvious, it doesn't need a FAQ."
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I've made a character with catch off guard who wields a crowbar. I just wondering if I can (besides getting it made out of a special material like mitheral) buy a masterwork and/or a +1 crowbar (not to mention other magic enchantments when I get enough fame).
As a Monk/Magus, could you use arcane pool and give it a +1 enhancement? if you can, and can get it up to +3, you don't need to worry about special material besides adamantine. i think.
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You can enchant an item in two separate ways if it qualifies for both.
ahh , yeah, i see your point.
yeah, hey i'm in favor of being able to enchant improvised weapons somehow.imo, an adamantine crowbar should count as a masterwork improvised weapon.
and should be enchantable as a weapon.
you can have an expertly crafted and weighted chairleg, that you bought from your church, its aroden's diningroom table leg, and the clergy have enchanted it to be a +1 holy chairleg. ::shrug::
its no more or less effective than a +1 holy club, except if your enemy picks it up, they get a -4 to attack with improvised weapons ( and presumably you've taken some feat to mitigate that )
its kooky, but i like it.
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+1 cold iron merciful human bane frying pan, here I come!
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I've made a character with catch off guard who wields a crowbar. I just wondering if I can (besides getting it made out of a special material like mitheral) buy a masterwork and/or a +1 crowbar (not to mention other magic enchantments when I get enough fame).
Once you make it Masterwork it isn't Improvised any more.
Eh, hitting someone with the flat of an axe isn't improvised. It's nonlethal damage.
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Switching to do nonlethal damage with an axe doesn't change the fact that it's slashing damage. (As usual, I'm open to citations otherwise.) I've always interpreted this as slashing for non-vital areas with intent to avoid major injury. This is difficult, hence the -4. This meshes well with the concept doing nonlethal damage with weapons with no "flat of the blade", such as a mace. Don't want to kill him? Bash him about the arms and legs until he passes out from the pain of his newfound bruises. Using an axe instead? Cut him until he passes out from slow blood loss.
Why is this relevant? It's that hitting someone with the flat of an axe is clearly not what's being done when you switch to nonlethal damage. You're using the axe as a clumsy club or mace instead. It wasn't designed as a bludgeon, but you're using it as an improvised bludgeon. That makes it an improvised weapon so long as you use it that way.
The monk of the empty hand archetype bears out this interpretation, but it's the only place I know of that spells out a person using existing weapons as improvised weapons.
As for masterwork: You can make something more effective than usual at hitting someone without really making it suitable for the job. A particularly well-balanced ale stein is still an ale stein. It may have been made better at being used as a weapon, but it's still no weapon. If you're going to burn 300 gp on making that ale stein more aerodynamic, I don't see anything RAW stopping you. It's liable to have the fragile quality, though, enchanted or not. Best make it an adamantine mug, or buy a high enough level wand of mending.
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There are two kinds of objects:-
• objects that are also weapons
• objects that are not also weapons
There are extensive, exhaustive rules about using weapon-objects in the game. Whole chapters. But what if you try to hurt someone with an object that is not a weapon? Well, just to save on word count we'll call it an 'improvised weapon', rather than 'a non-weapon object being used as if it were a weapon'.
So 'improvised weapon' = 'not a weapon'
In order to be crafted with a weapon enchantment an object must not only be masterwork but be a masterwork weapon! The masterwork component must be granting an enhancement bonus to attack! There are other masterwork bonuses: reduce armour check penalty by one, add a +2 bonus to a skill check. But you can't enchant an object with a weapon enchantment unless that object is both a weapon and has a masterwork enhancement bonus to attack.
A masterwork crowbar has a +2 skill bonus, not an attack bonus. Therefore it is not a viable target to be enchanted with a magical weapon enchantment.
What about an adamantine crowbar?
Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality
So an adamantine crowbar is not automatically a masterwork crowbar because a crowbar is not a weapon. If a crowbar is made masterwork then it gains a +2 to skill checks during appropriate tasks.
If you were to make a crowbar into a masterwork weapon (somehow!) then it would no longer be an improvised weapon (= 'not a weapon'), and feats and abilities that apply to improvised weapons would not help with that weaponised crowbar.
The weapon proficiency feats do two things:-
• removes any non-proficiency penalty
• makes you proficient
Removing the non-proficiency penalty =/= proficiency
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It does not explicitly apply to ale steins and crowbars. But nothing I have found explicitly disallows similarly masterwork or enchanted ale steins and crow bars. And it is a precedent for allowing such.It does not apply to ale steins and crowbars.
It is simply an alternate choice.
The game system says what you can do. You can't assume that the lack of a rule saying you can't do something means that you can!
If an object specifically says that it can be used as an improvised weapon and also enchanted as if it were a weapon, then it says this because this is not allowed otherwise. If an object's description does not say that it can be enchanted as a weapon then it can't!
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It does not explicitly apply to ale steins and crowbars. But nothing I have found explicitly disallows similarly masterwork or enchanted ale steins and crow bars. And it is a precedent for allowing such.It does not apply to ale steins and crowbars.
It is simply an alternate choice.
The game system says what you can do. You can't assume that the lack of a rule saying you can't do something means that you can!
If an object specifically says that it can be used as an improvised weapon and also enchanted as if it were a weapon, then it says this because this is not allowed otherwise. If an object's description does not say that it can be enchanted as a weapon then it can't!
Every time someone says "the game system says what you can do", Gary Gygax dies another death.
I would allow it; an improvised weapon is a weapon.
And if you want to take Exotic Weapon Prof.(Chair) - I would also be okay with that, I would even say it has the Disarm special, and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against big cats.
(I would no allow using a dead puppy as an improvised weapon, but attempting to do so might count as an intimidate check.)
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So If I were to make a Quick Draw, Improved Disarm, Catch Off Guard, Improvised Weapon mastery Rogue for some sweet sweet sneak attacks the best thing to use sounds like Arrows, is this correct?
Arrows when used in melee are improvised weapons that can be masterwork for the +1 to hit instead of a +2 to a skill, Adamantine AND enchanted normally?
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An improvised weapon is an object that is specifically not designed to be a weapon. If it was designed to be a weapon, then it's by definition not an improvised weapon.
If an object is masterwork such that it gives a bonus to skill use then that doesn't make it a masterwork weapon but a masterwork tool.
To be crafted with magical weapon enchantments it's not enough to be a masterwork object; it must be a masterwork weapon. That means that it has an a masterwork enhancement bonus to attack.
If an object is crafted as a masterwork weapon then it is by definition not an 'improvised' weapon.
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An improvised weapon is an object that is specifically not designed to be a weapon. If it was designed to be a weapon, then it's by definition not an improvised weapon.I'm amusing myself by imagining smiths specifically going out of their way to design their crowbar not to be a weapon, but that's just a semantics joke.
Of course they weren't designed to be weapons; that's why the rules have a -4 penalty for using them that way, but given that they've got a bolded Category in the Weapons section, I'd think they'd qualify as Weapons for rules purposes. Especially since the -4 penalty is rather specifically a nonproficiency penalty: "...is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object". The rules don't mention proficiency with anything besides armor and weapons (at least, not since second edition).
Keep in mind, I DO see why you might see this as against RAI. If a GM ruled against this, I wouldn't bat an eye.
To be crafted with magical weapon enchantments it's not enough to be a masterwork object; it must be a masterwork weapon. That means that it has an a masterwork enhancement bonus to attack.I actually would be interested in your opinion on this: see my post above concerning shields as enchanted weapons. One rule says you can never make a shield masterwork for +1 to attack rolls, and the other says you can enchant them as weapons. It's possible for both to be true, but not if you are correct in this part of your post. What do you think? I'm not trying to be accusatory; I think this is a weird contradiction in the rules.
As I mentioned in a previous post, specific exceptions (to the 'if it's not a weapon then it can't be enchanted as a weapon) may exist, such as that combat scabbard.
With shields, if it's a +150gp mwk shield then it reduces the ACP and may be enchanted as a magic shield, but not as a magic weapon.
If it's a +300gp mwk weapon shield then it gives an enhancement bonus to attack andcan be enchanted as a magic weapon.
It could even be +450gp and be mwk in both ways and be enchanted (separately) as both.
Shields can do this because the rules say they can. This is not true of crowbars or other generic improvised weapons.
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Durable Arrows are another option.
You will pay less for special materials, but if you ever enchant one, the enchantment goes away after one hit.
That could get expensive.
Feats like Arcane Strike can help though.
By the way, I was not referring to the Sharpened Combat Scabbard, but the Combat Scabbard, and both are from Adventurer's Armory:
Source Adventurer's Armory pg. 6
Statistics
Cost 1 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type B; Special improvised, see text
Description
This scabbard is an improvised weapon designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains. Taking the Equipment Trick feat for a scabbard gives you additional combat options for using a scabbard. For the purpose of fighter weapon groups, a scabbard for a heavy blade is considered a hammer, and a scabbard for a light blade is considered a close weapon.
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So, I can get a +1 Flaming Dead Puppy?
I can have the Weapon Focus(Dead Puppy), and the Weapon Specialization(Dead Puppy) feats?
What Fighter Weapon Group is Dead Puppy in?
Can I use the Dead Puppy with a Blink Back Belt?
Another take on Dead Puppies
I felt this was the only suitable argument to quote on this resurrected thread.
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Except that it says you can't, as I cited above: (PRG 149):"Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties."With shields, if it's a +150gp mwk shield then it reduces the ACP and may be enchanted as a magic shield, but not as a magic weapon.
If it's a +300gp mwk weapon it gives an enhancement bonus to attack andcan be enchanted as a magic weapon.
That quote, combined with the shield descriptions which say they can be made into magic weapons in their own right, only makes sense when understanding that the 'masterwork quality of a suit of armour or a shield never provides an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls' quote is simply separating the masterwork weapon property as distinct from the masterwork armour/shield property!
The mwk shield property never gives the mwk weapon property! Shields are also martial weapons. They are not improvised weapons. Therefore, their dual nature is not relevant to the discussion on whether non-weapons can be enchanted as weapons.
If you argue that the +150 that gets you the -1 ACP qualifies you to enchant the shield as a weapon, then there is precedent for the item being "masterwork" in some other way and being enchantable as a weapon.
I don't, so there is no precedent.
Shields are not an exception to any "non-weapons are not enchantable" rule because they are weapons; they're on the list as Martial weapons. They aren't breaking a rule, so they don't create an exception. The only exception applying to shields is their masterwork construction.
The exception is that they are both weapons and shields simultaneously, and may be made made with the masterwork armour/shield property and/or the masterwork weapon property. With the right property they may be given the appropriate enchantments.
Thus, there's nothing in the rules that would prevent an improvised weapon from being enchanted, as long as it is, in game terms, a Weapon.
That doesn't follow at all! Shields are also weapons, while improvised weapons are by definition not weapons.
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Improvised weapons are improvised first and weapons second. You cannot enchant your struggling melee weapon, but you can wield it. Be satisfied with that. Nobody else gets to do that, and it's a cool effect to have. If you have seen enough Jackie Chan, you might realize that all his improvised weapons fell apart when wielded against real weapons. He had to result in disarm, stun, and other tactics to even the odds back into his favor.
Improvised weapons are not mastery type weapons. You cannot use a struggling melee weapon so often you get the exact feel for one, and could have one perfectly made with the correct balance and the right kind of wiggle. It is improvised, you just have to deal with what you get.