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There are a million and one threads on why the monk sucks or whatever. However if someone says "monk" you in a D&D context what does it mean to you?
Ignoring images of Greek Orthodix monks on Mount Athos.
I'm thinking of rewriting the class, others probably have before me. The two ideas I have are to build the class around either its fast movement or flurry ability. The 1st idea would be like a 3.5 Scout with a sirmish mechanic (exta dice or damage) the second probbaly would have to let it full attack on the move or make Flury a static bonus to damage. The flurry mechanic as is seems kinda bad. Make the lcass full BAB or enhance the 3/4 BAB in some way (touch attacks, bonuses to hit etc).
Other issues of the monk such as low AC and trouble hitting can be taken care of in various ways such as a more generous monk bonus to AC and a monks fists gaining enhancement bonuses to them.
I tend to think of them as being masters of psychic abilities. Warriors who have trained their bodies to be physically perfected and their minds to be sharpened.
The concept of ki should be very much like psychic points and a host of abilities that allow them strike multiple times, project a force ball of psychic energy, control small objects telepathically, etc.
Kind of like this
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Usually means "hide thread".
Also, "support combatant."
In D&D terms, a "monk", for me, is a master of battlefield movement and unarmed close-combat fighting.
Things similar to Stunning Fist, Punishing Kick, and Touch of Serenity are what I'd want a monk to excel at and focus on. A monk should also be able to hit faster than anyone else, which I would personally do as some form of standard-action flurry.
Maybe I should have added avoid negative connotatins. I suppose I am trying to find out what people expect form an ideal monk. Its easy enough to power a monk up, but I don't want to do so in a way that makes other classes obsolete.
Would people care if flurry got the axe or was turned into a static bonus to damage for example? Flurry= monks add their level to damage (or half level or something.
COuld monks get an inherent bonuse to certain ability scores every now and then? 2-3 over 20 levels?
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I tend to see them as "mind and body are one" type martial artists. They should have an amazing amount of self-control and abilities built out of that self-discipline.
They should not be better unarmed than a fighter or barbarian is with weapons. Arguably a fighter or barabrian specialized in unarmed fighting should be better at unarmed combat than a monk. What the monk should be better at is fighting while simultaneously shrugging off attacks on his psyche and breathing poison fumes while balanced on a narrow ledge during a storm. They should be awesoem at adapting to things like difficult terrain and changing battlefield conditions.
I'm also okay with monks being better with weapons than without - watch a martial arts movie and they almost always use weapons when they can.
Of course, I am fairly well satisfied with monks as they currently stand and I know that's out of vogue right now. The class is certainly not perfect but it's not a walking catastrophe.
Atarlost not familiar with either one sorry:).
Personally I am leaning toward less attacks made but flurry will deal more damage (probably a static damage bonus rather than dice for critical hit benefits).
I find the flurry BAB to be clunky. Just make it full BAB and d8 hit dice as an exception of keep 3/4 but make a way for extra damage or bonuses to hit a'la Scout from 3.5. move 10' and gain a +2 bonus to hit. Might even make spring attack worth something.
A monk lacks a "thing". Maybe that thing could be a highly bobile fighter that deals alot of damge on one hit if it isn't full attacking. That damge is going to have to be comaprable or exceeding a THF though who deals that damage on every hit.
I was thnking of skirmish damage equal to sneak attack with bonuses to hit and maybe bonuses to damage via flurrying even if the dice are only rolled once. IDK may be a bit crazy. A THF may hit for say 15-20 damage at low levels and a monks single attack may do comparable damage but the monk has his other benefits as well- skills, fast movement and I'll probably buff the AC as well. Looking at elements of the 3.5 Vow of Poverty feat which could be added to the monk, specifically the enhancement bonuses to attack rolls and the AC benefits of it.
If people think flurry should remain as is monks are gonna need a way to move and flurry even if it is limited to XYZ times per day.
Monks are cultist of lawful ideals to me. This doesn't mean a monk has to be martial artist and eastern themed. I've made up western themed monk orders. I had one group a an order of monks who sought perfection in dueling. The adopted the Aldori Dueling Sword as their weapon of choice and specifically trained with it as monk weapon. I used the Weapon Adept archetype to flavor this out.
intersting idea voska. I know the aldori bladelord PrC adds dex to damage with that weapon. Dex to damage as a optional monk ability a stupid idea?
Monk = Hong Konng Phooey.
Everybody was kung fu fighting!
Those cats were fast as lightning!
MA
back in the day....
1E, prior to oriental adventures, a Monk was a rogue alternative, they could climb walls and open locks, other classes could not do these things.
They were NOT necessarily an oriental style shaolin monk, in fact I saw many "Friar tuck" types originally.
when OA came along that all went away.
Monks had good saves, but were very very squishy the first 7 levels or so. they never got played much at all in 1E and in fact were usually only played when the group had 5 players are were looking for a 6th!
Back in those days there "Had" to be a fighter (or ranger or pally) a magic user, a theif and a cleric. the 5th was almost always a druid or second fighter with the 6th almost always a monk....simply because they didnt want to step on anyones toes
Lol MA.
Monks = combat specialists who focus on what they can do with their bodies, not what they can do with their gear. They have had them all over the world for thousands of years, in almost every culture. Monks just happen to be the name that stuck for it...for which we can thank...I dunno, Hong Kong movie makers I'm gonna guess.
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Ascetic, enlightened warrior. A living weapon with no need for arms or armor, unified in mind, body, and soul.
One who gains strength through enlightenment, not magical gear. One who pushes the limits of martial arts mastery from the mundane into the mystical.
Typically swift of foot, and reliant more on agility and precision than brute force.
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Ignoring images of Greek Orthodix monks on Mount Athos.
Dude, Orthodox monks can bring the pain when they need to.
Just saying.
Monk to me means Brother Cadfael
Except that while he might live in a monastery, he is probably an inquisitor of some kind.
European monks are clerics and inquisitors. No need to muck around with the base classes to satisfy your need for cultural purity. You can be a monk without being a Monk, if you know what I mean.
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The Monk description claims they can take advantage of enemy vulnerabilities and aid allies where needed.
I'd like to see them actually do that.
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I think of the Bloodguard from the Thomas Covenant series.
In campaigns I run there are many situations in which characters might be attacked without their full combat gear. Monks would have a definite advantage.
not that long ago, we were playing in a campaign were the DM was a stickler for endurance, rest, traveling fatigue and sleeping in your armor.
So obviously we had to go through the RPing of taking off armor, maintaing it, taking guard shifts, eating, resting etc etc.
We had a scene where we were jumped in the middle of the night by a gang of drow monks.
It was quite harrowing.
Obviously the dragon disciple (sorcerer) didn't have as much problem fighting them. They attacked while the rogue was on guard, but the ranger and cavalier were caught totally unarmed and armored.
hoping, flipping, leaping drow, cartwheeling through darkness clouds, disarming swiping weapons and tossing them off the cliff nearby. It was horrendous!
the ranger happened to have some improvised weapon feat and catch off guard which caused him to tool a drow monk with a flaming log from the fire, and the cavaliers mount squashed one of the monks to paste.
The sorcerer effectively drove off the rest, but not before exhausting all the the next days spells.
Monks can be mean!
Edit: and true to form, even though i was the only one awake when the fight began, I missed every single attack I made and did ZERO damage the whole fight!
Are we going for the "entire General Discussion is Monk threads" achievement? Can I join?
Unlimited Monk Works!
I totally need to edit the spell's chant and replace words with Monk.
Also, I honestly can't find the right words to describe the Monk in its current incarnation.
not that long ago, we were playing in a campaign were the DM was a stickler for endurance, rest, traveling fatigue and sleeping in your armor.
So obviously we had to go through the RPing of taking off armor, maintaing it, taking guard shifts, eating, resting etc etc.
We had a scene where we were jumped in the middle of the night by a gang of drow monks.
It was quite harrowing.
Obviously the dragon disciple (sorcerer) didn't have as much problem fighting them. They attacked while the rogue was on guard, but the ranger and cavalier were caught totally unarmed and armored.
hoping, flipping, leaping drow, cartwheeling through darkness clouds, disarming swiping weapons and tossing them off the cliff nearby. It was horrendous!
the ranger happened to have some improvised weapon feat and catch off guard which caused him to tool a drow monk with a flaming log from the fire, and the cavaliers mount squashed one of the monks to paste.
The sorcerer effectively drove off the rest, but not before exhausting all the the next days spells.
Monks can be mean!
Edit: and true to form, even though i was the only one awake when the fight began, I missed every single attack I made and did ZERO damage the whole fight!
that was because your party was practically naked, caught off guard while resting and low on resources.
if you had time to gear up and were actually fresh, those monks couldn't be anywhere near as nasty as they were.
Out of context with the real world, I think of "Flurry of Blows".....that or Ti Kwan Leap
that was because your party was practically naked, caught off guard while resting and low on resources.
if you had time to gear up and were actually fresh, those monks couldn't be anywhere near as nasty as they were.
Yeah, as far as I can tell the only Monk class feature they were really using was Fast Movement to run off with weapons before you could grab them while waking up... which a single caster with Haste could enable their group to do anyhow.
Kobolds being weak doesn't mean Tucker's Kobolds aren't scary. The ambush was the threat.
Though I'll bear in mind that it might be worth trying a Monk next time I'm in a campaign where in every encounter the monsters are asleep and unable to don their armor.
i think of an ascetic holed up in some monastery in some remote location. doesn't have to be a martial artist. it could also be a priest or psychic too.
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I have always pictured monks more as mystics and less as combat monsters. For me, they were calm wisemen who could defend themselves if they needed to. In my mind the Bruce Lee style character was always an unarmed fighter. But over time, I realized the game mechanics did nto always support this. But tht is how I imagined them.
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I have always pictured monks more as mystics and less as combat monsters. For me, they were calm wisemen who could defend themselves if they needed to. In my mind the Bruce Lee style character was always an unarmed fighter. But over time, I realized the game mechanics did nto always support this. But tht is how I imagined them.
i agree with that. the closest i see to a proper monk, would be a Psionicist or Psychic warrior. depending on the type of monk.
Wait, ranger? Unarmored? Unless you were jumped by drow monks at first or second level he should have had Endurance and been able to sleep in medium armor, and they lose their style feats in heavy so medium is what they wear.
eh I cant remember I think it was he either didnt have the feat yet or it was one of those rare archetypes where they trade off all the useful stock abilities for something obscure, while i was typing it i was thinking to myself "Why WAS the ranger unarmored" but I do recall he was.
that was because your party was practically naked, caught off guard while resting and low on resources.
if you had time to gear up and were actually fresh, those monks couldn't be anywhere near as nasty as they were.
Yeah, as far as I can tell the only Monk class feature they were really using was Fast Movement to run off with weapons before you could grab them while waking up... which a single caster with Haste could enable their group to do anyhow.
Kobolds being weak doesn't mean Tucker's Kobolds aren't scary. The ambush was the threat.
Though I'll bear in mind that it might be worth trying a Monk next time I'm in a campaign where in every encounter the monsters are asleep and unable to don their armor.
hah, funny.
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The 1st idea would be like a 3.5 Scout with a skirmish mechanic (extra dice or damage)
I actually played a game once with a very flexible GM who let me swap out Flurry for Skirmish. I found it resulted in a very effective monk that felt a lot closer to the flavor the class.
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monk = Jackie Chan
Combination of acrobatics, improvisational weapons and unarmed. When surrounded by many enemies he can use the attacks of some to help a manoeuver against others (like halfling opportunist), and while he can't outright destory enemies, after a tough fight he'll walk away tired but essentially unharmed.
The 1st idea would be like a 3.5 Scout with a skirmish mechanic (extra dice or damage)I actually played a game once with a very flexible GM who let me swap out Flurry for Skirmish. I found it resulted in a very effective monk that felt a lot closer to the flavor the class.
Yeah the old 3.5 skirmish rules would probably have to be beefed up to compete with the classes in Pathfinder.
1d6 every two levels a'la sneak attack isn't really enough though IMHO. If the monk is only gonna get in one hit it had better be a good one but it would be distinct anyway. Skirmish would also give the monk +2 to hit I suppose. Flurry could act as a static buff to damage.
Skirmish move at least 10 feet/
+2 to hit
1d6 damage/2 levels
+1-4 AC?
Flurry
+1 damage every level or every 2/levels.
The monk would get both BTW. There would be occasions where the monk could not skirmish due to terrain or being grabbled. Unarmed damage would also need a built in enhancement modifier.
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Ya know... for "One who gains strength through enlightenment, not magical gear" they sure rely a lot on magical gear. Monk Robes, AoMF, Wisdom Helmet. Less magical gear, to be sure, but they rely more on it than anyone else.Ascetic, enlightened warrior. A living weapon with no need for arms or armor, unified in mind, body, and soul.
One who gains strength through enlightenment, not magical gear. One who pushes the limits of martial arts mastery from the mundane into the mystical.
Typically swift of foot, and reliant more on agility and precision than brute force.
Yep, which has caused no end of frustration when trying to make a monk that feels right. It's a big reason why I was so disappointed with how the UM Vow of Poverty turned out.
Thankfully there are alternatives, though it can be a tough sell as a player. I'm giving these rules a test run as a GM though for an order of monk NPCs whose flavor will really benefit from it. It lends itself perfectly well to how monks should feel, IMO and all that. Forcing monks to get their monkness from magical bling or the permanent spells of a caster just kills the mood for me.
Monk covers a spectrum with mystic religious ascetic at one end and martial arts warrior at the other. The mystic side would be represented by abilities that benefit from high Wisdom and the martial arts side would be represented by abilities that benefit from high Dexterity.
Other issues of the monk such as low AC and trouble hitting can be taken care of in various ways such as a more generous monk bonus to AC and a monks fists gaining enhancement bonuses to them.
If the monk gained a use for Dexterity besides AC, more monks would have a high Dexterity that gave them a good AC. But Strength is the most important attribute to the core monk, so Wisdom and Dexterity are sacrificed for that.
I have always pictured monks more as mystics and less as combat monsters. For me, they were calm wisemen who could defend themselves if they needed to. In my mind the Bruce Lee style character was always an unarmed fighter. But over time, I realized the game mechanics did nto always support this. But tht is how I imagined them.
Same here.
I'd vote for the removal of the monk class. Its detractors already claim that other classes and their archetypes are better at what the monk's supposed to do. So why cling to the class at all?
I'd vote for the removal of the monk class. Its detractors already claim that other classes and their archetypes are better at what the monk's supposed to do. So why cling to the class at all?
BLASPHEMY!!!!
I have always pictured monks more as mystics and less as combat monsters. For me, they were calm wisemen who could defend themselves if they needed to. In my mind the Bruce Lee style character was always an unarmed fighter. But over time, I realized the game mechanics did nto always support this. But tht is how I imagined them.
I dunno, I've always pictured them as either or. Shaolin monks were regarded as capable in combat, as were several other monk orders all over Asia. A couple of the Taoist Immortals at least were monks, and they could, at the minimum, lay out some serious smackdown. Being a mystic or wise man is a roleplaying subject, it isn't something that mechanically you can pigeonhole a class into. Then again, some of that stems from the fact that I don't see Buddha or Confucius and the like as being good adventurers. Great wise men, counselors, even leaders, yes. Adventurers, not so much.
Then again, that aspect of the game is, as I said, roleplaying.
And if they would actually go ahead and do something with ki, it would fit martial arts mysticism far, far better than spells or psionics.