For monks it would be quite nice, because they don't pay extra for getting more attack bonus, and they can operate as though they don't need lots of gimmicky equipstuff. If there ever is a second edition of PF I am seriously hoping that the Big Six get a hard look. There is nothing that feels magical about near mandatory "bonuses".
That's a nice way to operate, actually. Personally I like the idea of getting a magic sword, it's very thematic with the fantasy genre, but the rest...eh...it's so ingrained in the game now, you couldn;t keep backward compatibility and get rid of it. But I like your solution for home games!
In before the thread lock?
I remember somewhere in 3.5, there was a feat called Flying Kick. When you charge and end in an unarmed strike, you deal an additional 1d12 damage. Prereq: Imp. UAS
I feel like that feat alone could give monks the extra traction they need. With that, they can flurry when they full-attack and still have an option for skirmishing-- remember, as little as 10 feet counts as a charge as long as it's a straight line.
The best part is, it's one feat. No rules rewrites, no errata, just "hey, you can take this feat if you want it."
Two problems with this:
1) it's still a feat you have to take, and2) it does you no good if the monk's 3/4 BAB, poor striking stat, and lower enhancement bonus mean he still misses.
all i have to say is my tetori uses dimention door to grab dragons, then bowerbombs them to the ground, and beats the snot out of them.
he is a pure monk and is the second most bad ass character ive ever played.
I'm very happy for you. The Tetori is a decent archetype, but he does one thing, and one thing only: grapple. I mean different archetypes of monk can be good: the Zen Archer is great, as an archer. However many monk archetypes suck, and others just act as dips for other classes, and in any event the reason many look so great is because they actually can function at something - the Zen Archer is a great archer, but that's all he can do.
you can take all your bs "monks suck" talk over then and bury it.
...and all the archetypes in the world don't change that the core monk sucks. Just because an archetype works doesn't change this, indeed it just highlights it.
all i have to say is my tetori uses dimention door to grab dragons, then bowerbombs them to the ground, and beats the snot out of them.
he is a pure monk and is the second most bad ass character ive ever played.
you can take all your bs "monks suck" talk over then and bury it.
There have been many threads where we said monks suck. Every build post has proven this to be true with the exception of a multiclassed monk or the one that uses a bow, and one or two more, and these were against monsters used in previous threads so there was no cherry-picking.
With that aside if a class needs an archetype to function that does not mean the class is good. That means that particular archetype is good.
Beating up on dragons does not mean much on it's own. I have seen stories of dragons getting beat up before. Either the GM used poor tactics, it was before they got access to spells, the CR was such that it was CR=APL and other martials can do that also depending on various factors.
PS:In short 3 or 4 archetypes are ok. The rest are not so good and that includes the core monk.
PS:I am still interested in the monk you built that is supposed to grapple dragons if yo are willing to post it.
Can you post your build?all i have to say is my tetori uses dimention door to grab dragons, then bowerbombs them to the ground, and beats the snot out of them.
he is a pure monk and is the second most bad ass character ive ever played.
you can take all your bs "monks suck" talk over then and bury it.
I am waiting to see this build also. I also want to know which dragon(s) he is supposedly owning, and how this is taking place.
Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
Can you post your build?all i have to say is my tetori uses dimention door to grab dragons, then bowerbombs them to the ground, and beats the snot out of them.
he is a pure monk and is the second most bad ass character ive ever played.
you can take all your bs "monks suck" talk over then and bury it.
I am waiting to see this build also. I also want to know which dragon(s) he is supposedly owning, and how this is taking place.
at 8th level, Graceful Grappler cost 2 Ki to grab anything larger sizes (assuming he beats grapple CMD)
Chokehold sadly limited to 1 size larger. Which sucks because Pinning Knockout lets you deal double damage while pinning (which Chokehold helps)But I don't see anything about powerbombing, must be just how he describes it.
Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
I have not seen any decent to good pure(no multiclass) monk builds unless they were zen archers, the ones that can trade powers out(starts with the letter "q"), and one more archetype that I can't remember.
I have definitely never seen a good core monk.
In short unless its 3 or 4 specific archetypes they seem to fall short.
I am happy to accept links since I am not here everyday like I used to be. I may have missed some.
Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
Fighters can kill CR equivalents in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians with pounce can kill stuff in one round with a 2handed charge
Rangers are killing favored enemies in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians are killing smite targets in one round with a composite longbow
Cavaliers and Samurai can kill targets in one round with challenge and a full attack with an applicable weapon.
these are all martial classes that can kill CR equivalents in one round with a reasonable level of optimization in their particular circumstances.
monk, rogue, and ninja have no build that can do what the above 4 can, despite being a martial class.
Can you post your build?all i have to say is my tetori uses dimention door to grab dragons, then bowerbombs them to the ground, and beats the snot out of them.
he is a pure monk and is the second most bad ass character ive ever played.
you can take all your bs "monks suck" talk over then and bury it.
I am waiting to see this build also. I also want to know which dragon(s) he is supposedly owning, and how this is taking place.
at 8th level, Graceful Grappler cost 2 Ki to grab anything larger sizes (assuming he beats grapple CMD)
Chokehold sadly limited to 1 size larger. Which sucks because Pinning Knockout lets you deal double damage while pinning (which Chokehold helps)But I don't see anything about powerbombing, must be just how he describes it.
I figured the powerbombing was just his way of saying he owned the fight once they were grappled.
Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
I have not seen any decent to good pure(no multiclass) monk builds unless they were zen archers, the ones that can trade powers out(starts with the letter "q"), and one more archetype that I can't remember.
I have definitely never seen a good core monk.
In short unless its 3 or 4 specific archetypes they seem to fall short.
I am happy to accept links since I am not here everyday like I used to be. I may have missed some.
Zen Archer, Archery Focused Sohei, Strength Based Martial Artist w/ Dragon Style Line, and Quinggong Monk.
Yes, yes, and fighters, barbarians and rangers can be defeated by spellcasters in 1 round with a bad will save roll.
If the fighter/barbs saves are great thanks to gear (cloaks of boll'ocks everywhere), then those mighty heroes are in real trouble if the cloak/save boosting items are gone/broken/stolen.
Grog smash now is great, I have respect for it, but they have a ref and will vulnerability the monk does not have. This whole "this class is better than that class" forgets the weaknesses each class and build has. The mighty damage dealers can be taken out if their weak saves are exploited. The monk doesn't have weak saves. The pally has great saves, but needs the heavy armour and shield for great ac, which makes them slow and therefore vulnerable in the way the fast light monk on no skill check penalties is not.
Honestly, over and over round and round with you people.
Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
Fighters can kill CR equivalents in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians with pounce can kill stuff in one round with a 2handed charge
Rangers are killing favored enemies in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians are killing smite targets in one round with a composite longbow
Cavaliers and Samurai can kill targets in one round with challenge and a full attack with an applicable weapon.
these are all martial classes that can kill CR equivalents in one round with a reasonable level of optimization in their particular circumstances.
monk, rogue, and ninja have no build that can do what the above 4 can, despite being a martial class.
Rogues AND ninjas can't kill stuff in a round? You've seen the TWF and hasted archer builds for rogues/ninjas right?
I have one further question. Why is it so essential that everything gets killed in one round by the pcs, with massive damage?
There are builds to pull that off, sure, and it is satisfying to win, but rocket tagging through a dungeon is quite boring (and it encourages the dm to do the same to match the pcs). Where is the back and forth of fighting contests? Valiantly fighting for some rounds and then getting the win.
Now now now it seems, a troubling philosophy on what makes a good combatant. In opposition to this trend, I made a pretty high ac martial rogue that wore the opponents down over rounds, forcing a lot of misses with high ac, but making use of feints, sneak attacks and a bastard sword. To not kill them immediately, can also be cool.
You know, duel with them a bit!
Yes, yes, and fighters, barbarians and rangers can be defeated by spellcasters in 1 round with a bad will save roll.
If the fighter/barbs saves are great thanks to gear (cloaks of boll'ocks everywhere), then those mighty heroes are in real trouble if the cloak/save boosting items are gone/broken/stolen.
Grog smash now is great, I have respect for it, but they have a ref and will vulnerability the monk does not have. This whole "this class is better than that class" forgets the weaknesses each class and build has. The mighty damage dealers can be taken out if their weak saves are exploited. The monk doesn't have weak saves. The pally has great saves, but needs the heavy armour and shield for great ac, which makes them slow and therefore vulnerable in the way the fast light monk on no skill check penalties is not.
Honestly, over and over round and round with you people.
i admit that fighters have bad saves
but barbarians have a rage power that gives them huge bonuses against a minimum of 80% of the saving throws you roll. and rage, while initially limited, becomes a non-resource around 6th or 7th level. not something you always have, but something you can expect to have up on most combats.
and any DM who resorts to the Fiat "you are stripped of your gear and locked in a prison cell bound and gagged." scenario is a control freak and a Richard. the reason why, is because every class has some form of gear they require to function, and a specific minimum amount of magical gear they must have to accomplish their challenges.
otherwise, Sundering or stealing PC gear is also a Richard move usually done by control freaks.
Pathfinder is not Elder Scrolls. the "Prison Breakout with improvised tools" scenario works better in elder scrolls because it starts in the beginning chapters of a game where gear is less important than skill levels till later on.
and even in elder scrolls, they include NPC corpses you can loot to gain gear to kill the guards with. and gear for every possible form of specialization.
Rogues AND ninjas can't kill stuff in a round? You've seen the TWF and hasted archer builds for rogues/ninjas right?Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
Fighters can kill CR equivalents in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians with pounce can kill stuff in one round with a 2handed charge
Rangers are killing favored enemies in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians are killing smite targets in one round with a composite longbow
Cavaliers and Samurai can kill targets in one round with challenge and a full attack with an applicable weapon.
these are all martial classes that can kill CR equivalents in one round with a reasonable level of optimization in their particular circumstances.
monk, rogue, and ninja have no build that can do what the above 4 can, despite being a martial class.
that requires sneak attacks, a full attack on your sneak attacks, and praying your 3/4 bab attacks hit, which they will likely miss due to a lack of ability to augment attack bonus, plus they depend on a specific weapon enchantment to bump their damage.
I figured the powerbombing was just his way of saying he owned the fight once they were grappled.
I figured that he was literally performing the pro wrestling move on a dragon, for sheer awesome/comical effect. Obviously as a fluff description of a grapple check of some sort. Still would like more details, though. A lot less impressive if the "dragon" was a small sized baby dragon, for example.
I figured the powerbombing was just his way of saying he owned the fight once they were grappled.I figured that he was literally performing the pro wrestling move on a dragon, for sheer awesome/comical effect. Obviously as a fluff description of a grapple check of some sort. Still would like more details, though. A lot less impressive if the "dragon" was a small sized baby dragon, for example.
considering that he was a monk, it clearly was a small sized baby dragon, no way he could build up the CMB otherwise. at least without being shredded in the next round.
Personally, I believe the monk is a ruse designed by Wizards of the Coast and continued by Paizo to aggro significant numbers of players on their online forums.
Mission accomplished.
Lets see this monk that came from my Daddy's Box.
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Me.
you can do anything when you fudge things.
Zen Archer, Archery Focused Sohei, Strength Based Martial Artist w/ Dragon Style Line, and Quinggong Monk.Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
I have not seen any decent to good pure(no multiclass) monk builds unless they were zen archers, the ones that can trade powers out(starts with the letter "q"), and one more archetype that I can't remember.
I have definitely never seen a good core monk.
In short unless its 3 or 4 specific archetypes they seem to fall short.
I am happy to accept links since I am not here everyday like I used to be. I may have missed some.
Strength Based Martial Artist w/ Dragon Style Line, was not on the list. I am sure of that.
I don't think the archery focused Sohei was either, but I have also never seen either of these two.
Yes, yes, and fighters, barbarians and rangers can be defeated by spellcasters in 1 round with a bad will save roll.
If the fighter/barbs saves are great thanks to gear (cloaks of boll'ocks everywhere), then those mighty heroes are in real trouble if the cloak/save boosting items are gone/broken/stolen.
Grog smash now is great, I have respect for it, but they have a ref and will vulnerability the monk does not have. This whole "this class is better than that class" forgets the weaknesses each class and build has. The mighty damage dealers can be taken out if their weak saves are exploited. The monk doesn't have weak saves. The pally has great saves, but needs the heavy armour and shield for great ac, which makes them slow and therefore vulnerable in the way the fast light monk on no skill check penalties is not.
Honestly, over and over round and round with you people.
Not my barbarian. He actually had better saves than a monk IIRC.
Not my barbarian. He actually had better saves than a monk IIRC.Something to be said for human superstitious barbarian eh? :P +13 to all saves against spells, spell likes, and supernaturals at 20. By level 12 you've got a +9
Yeah... :)
that requires sneak attacks, a full attack on your sneak attacks, and praying your 3/4 bab attacks hit, which they will likely miss due to a lack of ability to augment attack bonus, plus they depend on a specific weapon enchantment to bump their damage.Rogues AND ninjas can't kill stuff in a round? You've seen the TWF and hasted archer builds for rogues/ninjas right?Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
Fighters can kill CR equivalents in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians with pounce can kill stuff in one round with a 2handed charge
Rangers are killing favored enemies in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians are killing smite targets in one round with a composite longbow
Cavaliers and Samurai can kill targets in one round with challenge and a full attack with an applicable weapon.
these are all martial classes that can kill CR equivalents in one round with a reasonable level of optimization in their particular circumstances.
monk, rogue, and ninja have no build that can do what the above 4 can, despite being a martial class.
See with 3/4 bab, I always think, well, 3 out of 4 ain't bad.
The roll still says whether you miss or not. I've made do with 3/4 bab characters for plenty of pf games.
HOLY CRAP YOU GOT YOUR BARBARIANS SMITE! HOOOOWWWW???Fighters can kill CR equivalents in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians with pounce can kill stuff in one round with a 2handed charge
Rangers are killing favored enemies in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians are killing smite targets in one round with a composite longbow
Cavaliers and Samurai can kill targets in one round with challenge and a full attack with an applicable weapon.
these are all martial classes that can kill CR equivalents in one round with a reasonable level of optimization in their particular circumstances.
monk, rogue, and ninja have no build that can do what the above 4 can, despite being a martial class.
Barbarian smite 4 life.
I have one further question. Why is it so essential that everything gets killed in one round by the pcs, with massive damage?
There are builds to pull that off, sure, and it is satisfying to win, but rocket tagging through a dungeon is quite boring (and it encourages the dm to do the same to match the pcs). Where is the back and forth of fighting contests? Valiantly fighting for some rounds and then getting the win.
Now now now it seems, a troubling philosophy on what makes a good combatant. In opposition to this trend, I made a pretty high ac martial rogue that wore the opponents down over rounds, forcing a lot of misses with high ac, but making use of feints, sneak attacks and a bastard sword. To not kill them immediately, can also be cool.
You know, duel with them a bit!
Which, during all of that time, they spent ignoring your lower than normal dpr and killing off squishier members of your party in a normal game.
High defenses keep you alive. Killing things is the best way to keep your party alive.
It is a team-based game jim, not everyone has to do the same thing. If you think killing things is the only way to keep your party alive, well you have not truly lived the lives of many characters.
Still waiting for the Tetori build....
Barbarian smite 4 life.HOLY CRAP YOU GOT YOUR BARBARIANS SMITE! HOOOOWWWW???Fighters can kill CR equivalents in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians with pounce can kill stuff in one round with a 2handed charge
Rangers are killing favored enemies in one round with a composite longbow
Barbarians are killing smite targets in one round with a composite longbow
Cavaliers and Samurai can kill targets in one round with challenge and a full attack with an applicable weapon.
these are all martial classes that can kill CR equivalents in one round with a reasonable level of optimization in their particular circumstances.
monk, rogue, and ninja have no build that can do what the above 4 can, despite being a martial class.
i accidentally typed Barbarian twice
it's supposed to be paladins and antipaladins that smite. but nice joke on my typo.
Barbarian Smite 4 Life
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I haz internet back. Time for more pointless arguments.
Your games are 70% combat? You think all games are 70% combat?
Take a random Paizo published AP or module.
It should be pretty clear what the default assumption of this game is.
What about roleplaying, the dm engaging in description and players describing what they do, traps and getting around them or getting hurt by them, haggling and questioning, non-combat skills checks, rolling what has been found in treasure, dishing out loot
None of which COMBINED take up as much time as combat does in an average game, unless your DM is the sort that puts a trap on every door, floor panel, and chest and hands out magical loot like it's candy while requiring you to describe exactly how you put your right foot in and put your right foot out.
and the giant time sink of levelling and general book-keeping.
Which are better done BEFORE and AFTER the game. As well, leveling up once takes maybe 15 minutes at MOST if you have even a vague idea of what you want to do. General book-keeping can be done while people are doing things. Doesn't take that much of your attention or time to write down stuff like "Killed boggart in room 4, identified: Ring of Protection, Ring of the Ram, missed the curse on Cloak of Resistances".
70% is a giant unfounded call, a total shot in the dark.
No, not particularly it isn't.
You would like the label of 70% combat time so that if the monk isn't a great frontline fighter like the others, he is wasting everyone's time. After all, he is crap in combat which is apparently 70% of the game.
I would not "like" to label anything, that just happens to be how things are.
Nice try.
Thanks. You too.
Yes, yes, and fighters, barbarians and rangers can be defeated by spellcasters in 1 round with a bad will save roll.
And what does this have to do with the price of rice in China?
If the fighter/barbs saves are great thanks to gear (cloaks of boll'ocks everywhere), then those mighty heroes are in real trouble if the cloak/save boosting items are gone/broken/stolen.
The Monk is as reliant on gear as any other martial character. Moreso since he only has 3/4 BaB. His saves are better, certainly, but he needs an AoMF for his fists (or a magic weapon, one), a Headband of Wisdom/Bracers of Armor/Ring of Protection too boost his less than stellar AC, and all around any other item a martial needs besides armor (replaced with a bundle of MUCH more expensive magic items) and a Cloak of Resistances.
Grog smash now is great, I have respect for it, but they have a ref and will vulnerability the monk does not have. This whole "this class is better than that class" forgets the weaknesses each class and build has. The mighty damage dealers can be taken out if their weak saves are exploited.
Yes, they can. But they're good at what they're supposed to be good at.
The monk doesn't have weak saves.
No he doesn't. But he has weak to-hit, weak damage, little to no skirmishing ability (despite what you would have us believe is his purpose just below this), and no utility. He has all the weaknesses of a caster, and none of the strengths except for his saves.
The pally has great saves, but needs the heavy armour and shield for great ac, which makes them slow and therefore vulnerable in the way the fast light monk on no skill check penalties is not.
And what do you do with that speed? Scout ahead? Okay. Hope you don't get caught away from your party because you can hardly defend yourself alone. And if you're sticking close by, then you're not using your speed.
Zooming around the battlefield, using hit and run tactics? Nice in theory, but in practice you simply cannot do it. Perhaps with Spring Attack, but then your already pitiful damage output drops to almost nil.
Swim and climb a bit faster? Yay?
Meanwhile, the "slow and vulnerable" Paladin has equivalent saves, better AC, a much higher output (pushed to godliness by Smite), and a number of other goodies.
Honestly, over and over round and round with you people.
Likely because twisting the drill at high speeds is the only way to get through some thick objects.
Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
IIRC the hungry ghost monk with temple swords did quite respectable damage in the DPR olympics. That's at least one decent monk build.
And the only way he could even attempt to DD and then grapple is if he were at least 13th level and had snagged Dimensional Agility.
But Tetori do get some pretty baws bonuses to grappling. And nothing else, mind you, but they're good at grappling.
all i have to say is my tetori uses dimention door to grab dragons, then bowerbombs them to the ground, and beats the snot out of them.
he is a pure monk and is the second most bad ass character ive ever played.
you can take all your bs "monks suck" talk over then and bury it.
I'd like to see this build. I've tried to make Monk grapplers, but can't get the CMB high enough to beat most monsters above level ~11 or 12, without gimping the rest of the build.
Let alone that being the grappler kills your damage output, but being the grapplee doesn't. I'd hate to grapple a dragon and then get killed on its turn: claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, tail... :(
Well the fight was in their air, perhaps the dragon had already used its actions before being grappled, and the monk using greater grapple got in 2 grapple checks.
As 3.5 Loyalist pointed out, its a team game.
It is a team game, but he tried to give the MONK the credit, so I want to see what the MONK did. Now if he got the dragon to the ground and the fighter killed it then the monk did not "beats the snot out of them."
Notice that "them" is plural so maybe he is a level 13 monk taking on CR 5 dragons.
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I am sure he has seen this post, and we are not seeing a build. Typical monk super build. Either we never get to see it, or we do and it is proven to not be so super.