Medium dragonhide full plate costs 3,300 gp (twice the masterwork full plate cost of 1,650 gp).
Medium dragonhide full plate can only be made from a Colossal dragon, since the dead dragon has to be four size categories larger than the armor in the case of full plate.
The only colossal dragons in the three Bestiaries are:
The great wyrms of true dragons that have a base size of small,
Ice, Taiga, Tarn, and Tor linnorms, and
Shipbreaker sea serpents.
All these are far too powerful, dangerous, and rare creatures for their scales to command a premium of a mere 1,650 gp over ordinary steel. So, what is the dragon that is weak enough, while being large enough, to provide the scales for the armor that, by the rules, is in fact available?
That is up to the GM. One should also remember the game world has most likely been around for thousands of if not tens of thousands of years. The ability to find the armor does not mean the dragon had to have been killed recently. It could have been 40000 years ago when the armor was made. The price is based on usefulness from an out of game few, and from an in game view a similar view would also work. I have never purchased dragonhide in all my years of gaming until I played a druid.
That is up to the GM.
Yes, thus in a discussion area, not in a rules questions area.
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I understand, but it had to be said. :)
I would say a CR 15 would be the cap for a creature of that size that would not be too rare. With that aside I think dragonhide armor was intended to come from True Dragons. The elemental property of the armor supports that. If a GM wants to use any dragon then what happens to the elemental property? Would you put something in it's place or just give the armor a reduction in price?
edit:As an aside not I have never liked the difference in size between dragonhide armor and the dragon needed. I think 2 sizes would have been enough.
Also, bear in mind part of the reason that the cost isn't any higher is that wearing dragon armor of the wrong kind of of dragon, and sometimes dragon armor at all, can annoy other dragons, which can be problematic at times, and give you the a possibly unwanted reputation of dragon slayer amongst others, which again, can have difficulties associated with it as people assume you are more capable than you may actually be.
*warning, heavy houseruling ahead*
Since I dislike the thought of diminishing dragons so much (it gets done way to often by using young dragons with poor tactics and stuff like that), I tend to interpret the price of the dragon armors as the price ONLY for having the armor crafted. The scales have to be obtained on top of that. (Normally by slaying a dragon) I give those dragon armors elemental resistance (5 for light, 10 for medium and 15 for heavy) and the wearer gets a big circumstance bonus on many social interactions. Also, since dragons are infused with magic, the DC and price for enchanting these armors are each 25% lower. Also I never use dragons as "random fights", they have to be actively sought after and attacked or the are at least semi-BBEG.
We had a similiar problem in a AP recently
I understand the rules sometimes have to be somewhat plausable and realistic but this rule just stunk for our Party... especially since we lost our Paladin.
...in the end we made some decent Gauntlets (well actually just gloves)
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IMO, Dragonhide armor is waaaaay too cheap to actually be real dragon unless there are colossal dragon farms in your campaign world. It makes more sense for most suits to be faux dragon, and actually made out of wyvern or other magical beast hides instead.
Plus, wearing the hide of a sentient intelligent being is just plain creepy.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say a dead dragon .
How is it way too cheap? Most playes I have met will not drop GP to pay for flavor, and mechanically dragonhide is not all that great. Now if the dragon armor actually gave energy resistance to the wearer then it should cost more.
My guess is that the body of the loser in a dragon territorial dispute gets sold for a handsome profit by the victor. May also serve as a kind of 'head on a pike' deal to show off/intimidate other rivals.
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How is it way too cheap? Most playes I have met will not drop GP to pay for flavor, and mechanically dragonhide is not all that great. Now if the dragon armor actually gave energy resistance to the wearer then it should cost more.
Mechanically I agree. From a flavor perspective armor that requires a colossal dragon hide should be really expensive just due to the rarity.
Not really. See this post. Of course I am also of the opinion that using resources for flavor should not have to happen.
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It should be possible to combine hides of smaller dragons to equal a larger dragon, right?
It should be possible to combine hides of smaller dragons to equal a larger dragon, right?
I've been trying to decide between this, allowing you to piece-meal the actual materials from different dragons to make the full set, or just lowering the requirements of how much you need in the first place.
We had a similiar problem in a AP recently ** spoiler omitted **.... we killed a Large White Dragon and could not produce enough armor for my GNOME SIZE Druid...
I understand the rules sometimes have to be somewhat plausable and realistic but this rule just stunk for our Party... especially since we lost our Paladin.
...in the end we made some decent Gauntlets (well actually just gloves)
Is this by some official crafting rule? If so, it doesn't seem right. Even with poor articulation (i.e. without lots of interlocking and overlocking plates) it seems unreasonalbe you couldn't have kitted out your catapult-ammunition druid in full armor. Strange.
I would think that there might be nefarious merchants and fences able to steal, trade, store and source dragonhide armor depending on the gameworld. Some folk favour the demigod-dragon trope, others the wyrmling-slayable-by-party-of-five (NOT the TV show, though I'm sure those orphans could annoy one to death). Depends on how you play them as to how you slay them. Point is, they're pretty big, and most of the very large hide could be prepared for everything from large breastplates to the fine mota skil needing spyked gauntlette. RAAAAAR!
I'd imagine dragons would get peeved if you wore dragonhide armor, but then they are often capricious jumped up dinosaurs with delusions of grandeur and grace. A right hook with said spyked gauntlette usually begins a nice dust up.
I always used the elemental resistance Nicos mentioned. I think that goes back to 1e Dragon magazine articles.
Best by far was the satirical Dragon magazine fiction pittingan arrogant knight and dragonslayer against the lowly peasant upon whom's verge said dragon was slain. Peasant had to deal with the body, which was a pain at first, until he started selli the bits of the carcass. Seeking shelter from the newly proprietarial knight within said carcass and remaining protected was the best corpse-cave imagery since Han stuck Luke inside a tauntaun. Yikes!!!
Long story short. A dragon that has been recently or distantly deceased. From the paltry wyrmling (good for gauntlets and headhelms) to the gargantuan (multiple sets).
As for wearing the remains of sentient creatures being creepy? I guess it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Not even in RL. They aren't using the material anymore. Shame to let good fibre and skeletal/exoskeletal architecture go to waste. Bone. Leather. Shell. Carapace. Claws. Teeth. Talons. Feathers. (Sorry tengu). All bright and shiny dressups. Yay! ;p
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IMO, Dragonhide armor is waaaaay too cheap to actually be real dragon unless there are colossal dragon farms in your campaign world. It makes more sense for most suits to be faux dragon, and actually made out of wyvern or other magical beast hides instead.
That's my assumption.
I house rule that 'Dragonhide' is a trade name, for scaly armor made from wyvern-hide, drake-hide, etc. (various other dragon type creatures that aren't 'true dragons,' or even the occasional magical beast, like a behir or basilisk) and is the cheapo stuff in the core rules (and you can make quite a bit more of it than the suggested sizes, with a large wyvern being quite capable of producing a suit of armor for a large ogre, or a pair of Medium-sized dwarves).
Armor made from actual *dragon* hide is going to cost more, since it's hard to get off the dragon without someone (other than the dragon) going home in a bag. Like in 1st edition, I'd allow actual dragonhide to give some small bonuses to saves vs. the energy type it's previous 'wearer' was immune to (+2 for light armor, +3 for medium armor, +4 for heavy armor, reduce by 1 for armor that only covers part of the body, like a hide shirt or breastplate), in addition to being terribly expensive, all out of proportion to it's mechanical advantages over bargain basement 'dragonhide' (making it sort of the 'royal outfit' of armors).
Would the piecemeal armor rules make getting dragonhide full plate easier? Don't have my book on me but if I recall correctly the torso piece of full plate counts as a breastplate.
With that aside I think dragonhide armor was intended to come from True Dragons. The elemental property of the armor supports that. If a GM wants to use any dragon then what happens to the elemental property? Would you put something in it's place or just give the armor a reduction in price?
The rule in question is phrased entirely as an if --
"If the dragonhide comes from a dragon that had immunity to an energy type, the armor is also immune to that energy type, although this does not confer any protection to the wearer. If the armor or shield is later given the ability to protect the wearer against that energy type, the cost to add such protection is reduced by 25%."
So, the rule seems to already contemplate dragonhide from dragons without energy immunity.
It should be possible to combine hides of smaller dragons to equal a larger dragon, right?
That would seem to be logical. The trouble is that a doubling of a linear dimension is a quadrupling of skin area. In naive principle, it would take four Gargantuan dragons, sixteen Huge dragons, or sixty-four Large dragons dead to get the same amount of hide as one Colossal dragon.
So, if it takes choice scales from one Colossal great wyrm red dragon to make a suit of full plate, it would (presumably) take choice scales from sixty-four Large wyverns to do the same.
Would the piecemeal armor rules make getting dragonhide full plate easier? Don't have my book on me but if I recall correctly the torso piece of full plate counts as a breastplate.
No, doesn't help; you need the same size dragon for full plate or for a breastplate.
One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller.
It seems to logically follow that an armorsmith can combine choice scales from multiple dragons to make more medium-sized suits.
Lol, faux dragon scales.
"As an aesthete, I can tell you sir, that is from a wyvern, NOT a dragon."
http://www.thiseuphoria.com/anime11/hyougemono-1118.jpg
On the rules, I know this isn't exactly on the rules, I allow players to turn dragons into a lot of armour and pieces. Weapons, suits, you can stretch a large dragon pretty far. There is the matter of scales, yes, and ridges, horns and bones. So you might use all manner of parts for the ins and out of the armour and have left over for other weapons.
Another little ruling. Hide armour is hide armour, which yes, starts as a pretty poor armour. Don't worry, the dragon materials and all that natural will give a bonus to the ac. I encourage players to use parts of the monsters they defeat, much like Dark Souls.
Now, if you want to make full plate dragon armour, I'm sorry, but your druid will not be able to wear it and cast. See while most of your materials may be dragon, full plate armour is complex, has a harness, buckles, mail so much mail, and simply put, there is a lot of the full plate that is not dragon/natural and is metal. The druids further more, do not have full plate tech, or the capability to make something so advanced and feudal, they are not into mixing the highest tech of plate with dragon pieces.
How I handled it, how I deal with it. So on the one hand I allow a carcass to go pretty far, as far as makes sense; on the other hand I do not allow druids to wear heavy full plate and cast spells, and hide is hide not full plate.
One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller.It seems to logically follow that an armorsmith can combine choice scales from multiple dragons to make more medium-sized suits.
Yes, sure. The only trouble is it also logically follows that you need the same amount of hide off multiple dragons as one colossal dragon has in total hide.
Let's say you needed 200 square inches of citrus peel. You can get that off of one very large grapefruit eight inches in diameter. If all you've got are one-inch diameter key limes, though, you need the peel from 64 of them to get the same amount of peel.
Size categories are a factor of two in length, which means, each size down has one-fourth the hide of the larger. To get the same amount of scales to choose from as you get off one colossal dragon, you need the corpses of 64 merely large dragons.
Maybe dragons shed their skins, and enterprising dragons sell their old skins to help bulk up their hoard.
Maybe dragons shed their skins, and enterprising dragons sell their old skins to help bulk up their hoard.
This. In my worlds, now, this.
Alligators lose individual scales - they get itchy and scratch them off. Dragons are alive, and there's no reason I can see why they wouldn't keep growing new scales.
My favourite idea is someone who worked this out, and now offers dragons a scratching service, where the dragons fly up every six months or so, get scratched, oiled, massaged, maybe fed and a bunch of gold "for free" and every few years the proprietor hires some scarred actor to sell "dragonscale armour" to some noble or adventurer.
I like the idea, because it has dragons seeing these proprietors as a sort of "cleaning fish" service, and some kobold/halfling family could have kids who've grown up "cleaning" a particular colossal red dragon. Sure he's evil - but he's not stupid.