One of the players at my table made dervish dancer. He was allowed to use a yurimie (sp?) which is like a whip chain with reach for his dervish dance. Not only that but he wields two of them while he dances. We use 3.5 rules and with the DM handwaive of the scimitar requirement, he attacks 6 times with a 15-20 crit range. With 3.5 rules can you dance with 2 weapons? I think he uses finesse for the weapon as well as his to hit is astronomical. I'm actually a little pissed now that I read this thread and think I should do something about it.
I'm not sure it would make too much of a difference if there was an "Improved Weapon Finesse" feat which applies to only weapons that can be finessed. These weapons don't typically do any more damage or have a greater crit range / multiplier than a scimitar. Does it make Dex a very good stat? Yes absolutely. But since mechanically most finesseable weapons are very similar to a scimitar, and I think you would hard pressed to find one that would be considered superior to a scimitar, I don't know what difference it would make to open Dervish Dance to finesseable weapons or just add another feat call Improved Weapon Finesse.
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One of the players at my table made dervish dancer. He was allowed to use a yurimie (sp?) which is like a whip chain with reach for his dervish dance. Not only that but he wields two of them while he dances. We use 3.5 rules and with the DM handwaive of the scimitar requirement, he attacks 6 times with a 15-20 crit range. With 3.5 rules can you dance with 2 weapons? I think he uses finesse for the weapon as well as his to hit is astronomical. I'm actually a little pissed now that I read this thread and think I should do something about it.
3.5 had a few ways to add dex to damage but didn't have the feat Dervish Dance so the answer to the question "With 3.5 rules can you dance with 2 weapons?" is No. Because the feat didn't exist.
Urumi isn't a finessable weapon. But neither is the scimitar and the Dervish Dance feat says you use dex to hit and damage with that weapon.
The player shouldn't be using two urumi's if using Dervish Dance.
3.5 Ways to add Dex to Damage:
Shadow Blade feat:
It can't be used with the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle because it isn't a Shadow Hand Discipline Weapon.
Drow Hit and Run Fighter:
Only works on flat-footed characters. Could be that but I doubt it
Targeteer fighter variant:
Only works with ranged weapons.
It shouldn't some melee builds lose DPR at higher level with power attack.there is a lot of people complaining about power attack. they say that feat should be just a a free option for melee guys.Its a silly feat. When 95% of Magii have it, well, that has to tell you something...The same argument is a strong one vs. a lot of feats no body complains about. Like power attack for fighters, rangers, barbarians.
Most classes/playstyles have some feats that nearly everyone of them takes.
Like archers takeing precise shot.
Having Power Attack doesn't mean you're forced to use it for every attack...
3.5 had a few ways to add dex to damage but didn't have the feat Dervish Dance so the answer to the question "With 3.5 rules can you dance with 2 weapons?" is No. Because the feat didn't exist.
Urumi isn't a finessable weapon. But neither is the scimitar and the Dervish Dance feat says you use dex to hit and damage with that weapon.
The player shouldn't be using two urumi's if using Dervish Dance.
3.5 Ways to add Dex to Damage:
Shadow Blade feat:
It can't be used with the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle because it isn't a Shadow Hand Discipline Weapon.Drow Hit and Run Fighter:
Only works on flat-footed characters. Could be that but I doubt itTargeteer fighter variant:
Only works with ranged weapons.
Thanks! and for the spelling of urumi.
PF lets you add dex to damage but only with 2 weapons that I know of- Aldori dueling sword and scimitar. They are better weapons than the vast majority of weapon finessable weapons and more or less force people into certain builds.
Creative Director
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There's also the amusing irony that the Swashbuckler rogue archetype is not proficient in buckler...If he actually just said "because it's a specific flavor for a specific region of our specific game world" I'd have more respect for it than this "it's too powerful" defense.
That's why I chose the scimitar and not another weapon for the feat.
And frankly, if I thought I could get away with it, I would do similar feats for similar weapons, or perhaps just a generic "add your Dex instead of Str" type feat to damage, but that's something the design team, not me, feels is too powerful. (You'll note that Dervish Dance has yet to show up in a rules hardcover...)
To a certain extent, I agree with them.
To a greater extent, I'm still pretty frustrated that there's not really a core option to play a full-on swashbuckler—AKA a fighter who favors 1 weapon, no shield (or just a buckler), and light armor. The only options to make that character as they exist now is to build it as a rogue (which sacrifices attack power and adds some flavor—sneak attacks and trap stuff—that doesn't really fit with a swashbuckler's themes) or as a fighter (and simply be at peace with the fact that your chosen fighting style means you'll have a lower AC and do less damage than any other fighting style affords).
Or the fact that one of it's new abilities, Martial Training, is kind of lame if you're making the classic rapier-wielding swashbuckler, since rogues are already proficient in this weapon
Personally I would just read the feat as requiring a certain way of moving (or dancing) that makes it effective ONLY with a one handed sword with a curved blade (or basically a scimitar style weapon). Though I will admit that requiring a feat that isn't usable with the weapon is absurd. I might rewrite it to require a feat that emphasizes moving (or dancing if you will) while in dangerous situations since Weapon Finesse isn't a good fit; Like Mobility for example. I would also allow the use of other weapons similar to a scimitar ... like perhaps a sabre or cutlass? Certainly NOT a rapier.
James IMC I have a feat that lets you turn a one handed weapon into a finesseable weapon which lets you say dual wiled twin longswords or weapon finesse a longsword or any other one handed weapon. I've also got a feat that adds dex to damage and another one that adds intelligence as well essentially turning the old swashbuckler 3.5 class into feat options. In theory you could weapon finesse up a bastard sword.
For the low low price of 5 feats you could have.
EWP:Bastardsword
Bastard sword into weapon finesse
Weapon finese
Int to damage
Dex to damage.
One of my PCs does use the last 3 options with a rapier. It may be broken IDK but from the DM point of view it is less of a problem to deal with than a combat wombat munchkin using say a falcion, vital strike, furious focus, power attack and a keen weapon. The downside is that it is feat intensive and the damge is nice but its not to overbearing even with an elf. Said character gets more versatility though at the price of damage.
My only problem with Dervish Dance, as it were, is that it makes your average Duelist, someone who would traditionally be using a rapier, that much more likely to use a scimitar instead. It's not that I think Dervish Dance is bad; on the contrary, I think it's a great idea, I'd just like something comparable for rapier users.
The rapier exists in this no-man's land of being pretty much the worst-supported Finesseable weapon (no Piranha Strike, no Dex to damage), and I think that's pretty sad.
More love for the rapier, please!
Is Dervish dancing even that bad? I know its popular but would it be as popular but it almost has a monopoly on dex to damage.
Well, there are only two other ways to get Dex to damage that I can think of - the newish Aldori Swordlord PrC gets it at level 1 with Aldori Dueling Swords, and then there's the Agile enhancement, which is at least 6,000 gp out of pocket. Neither of these are realistically possible before level 6.
Hence why I said almost. Ones a prestige class as opposed to a feat you can take at low levels, not familiar with agile enhancement.
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Hence why I said almost. Ones a prestige class as opposed to a feat you can take at low levels, not familiar with agile enhancement.Agile
Source: Pathfinder Society Field Guide
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cat's grace; Price +1 bonus.
DESCRIPTION
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Beat me by an hour and 24 min :-)
I have a Whip Magus that uses this
Hence why I said almost. Ones a prestige class as opposed to a feat you can take at low levels, not familiar with agile enhancement.Agile
Source: Pathfinder Society Field Guide
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cat's grace; Price +1 bonus.
DESCRIPTION
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Thanx not familiar with that book as I don't own it and have never read it.
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That seems to say more about the enhancement. It's already the most powerful +1 enhancement in the game.The idea that adding dex to damage is too powerful for a feat is kind of defeated by the fact that the Agile weapon enchantment exists.
Really, the Dervish Dance feat is only good until you can afford the Agile enchantment, after that you're going to want to Retrain Dervish Dance because feats are simply more important than the gold you spend for the magic.
Exactly this. There's a reason Agile doesn't appear in any Core hardcovers. In fact, it shows up in exactly one itty-bitty softcover intended to be used in a setting with a strictly enforced 20 point buy character creation system and numerous other limitations that help cap character power.
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Personally, this feat makes absolutely no sense to me. Can someone please explain why you would want to use dex to damage when you can't use dex for attack? You still need decent strength in order to hit (which when you get right down to it is more important in the long run than damage). Therefore, you still need decent strength to hit with a scimitar. Why then would you get this feat when you can just continue using your already decent strength for damage and not have to deal with the other penalties of not fighting two handed or using a shield?
Sorry for the rant, but this is absolutely absurd to me. I misread the feat originally thinking that it said scimitars count as a light one-handed weapon with the feat making me think it was finessable...clearly I was wrong which suddenly makes the who point of the feat (being able to fight with a lower str) virtually useless.
Granted, as a cleric, you could take the guided hand feat for wis to hit and dex to damage with dervish dance, but that's a 4 feat tax to deal the same damage you would with a decent strength. It's a cool concept and all, but when you are completely crippled if you dump strength before level 7 (5 if human), you aren't really getting to play your concept. Grrr...
Amongst other things, Dervish Dance let's Dex replace Str for both attack AND damage with scimitars.
Amongst other things, Dervish Dance let's Dex replace Str for both attack AND damage with scimitars.And I'm stupid...who cares if you can't finesse a scimitar when this feat allows you to essentially finesse it?
Hence why Weapon Finesse is essentially a feat tax for Dervish Dance.
I actually took Dervish Dance for one of my characters for the bonus to hit before I realized that it also gave a bonus to damage. Before that, I wielded a Kukri because it was the only martial light slashing weapon that wasn't an axe.
there is a lot of people complaining about power attack. they say that feat should be just a a free option for melee guys.
And they are correct.
Same with Combat Expertise.
The ability to choose to hit harder or guard better should just be combat choices, not feats.
Combat Maneuvers are the same way. Seriously, I learned how to Bull Rush someone in highschool playing football. I learned how to Trip someone when I was a child. Who doesn't know how to throw sand in someone's face? The feat tax for these actions is just silly.
Don't even get me started on the fact that a 20th level fighter without Improved Disarm never learned how to take someone's weapon without risking getting hit in the face or dropping their weapon.
there is a lot of people complaining about power attack. they say that feat should be just a a free option for melee guys.And they are correct.
Same with Combat Expertise.
The ability to choose to hit harder or guard better should just be combat choices, not feats.
Combat Maneuvers are the same way. Seriously, I learned how to Bull Rush someone in highschool playing football. I learned how to Trip someone when I was a child. Who doesn't know how to throw sand in someone's face? The feat tax for these actions is just silly.
Don't even get me started on the fact that a 20th level fighter without Improved Disarm never learned how to take someone's weapon without risking getting hit in the face or dropping their weapon.
Agreed.
And don't forget that you must have an incredibly high IQ just so you can trip someone without being punched in the face. Because scientists obviously know more about triping, graplling and disarming than veteran soldiers with average intelligence.
In fact, Dr. Stephen Hawking qualifies for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Grapple/Disarm... Chuck Norris? Probably not.
actually, chuck norris probably does barely qualify, he's got a degree you know.
plus his 34 levels of monk and 18 levels of ninja allow him to pick from a list of feats (read ALL feats) without needing to meet the prerequisites.
BTW ...WHERE is Dervish Dance the feat, all I can find is Dervish Dance the bard....ugh.
actually, chuck norris probably does barely qualify, he's got a degree you know.
plus his 34 levels of monk and 18 levels of ninja allow him to pick from a list of feats (read ALL feats) without needing to meet the prerequisites.
A degree doesn't necessarily means you have a 13 Int, only that you have a good amount of ranks and/or Skill Focus on one or more Knowledge Skills.
e.g.: When someone graduates in Engineering. I view that as gaining one level in Expert and getting Skill Focus: Knowledge(Engineering).
Also, I think Chuck Norris has a single level in the Chuck Norris class.
Yes and that gives bases stats of 200 across the board. Then add all the ninja, monk, and expert lvls.
Pathfinder has feats because Chuck Norris tried them all first, and let Pathfinder have the ones he didn't need anymore, when he traded them out for better ones after his 35th level of fighter.
but you need a reasonable strength if you ever intend to wear armor. even the mithril stuff.
masterwork backpacks and handy haversacks don't fix everything. while the haversack makes storing spare miscellaneous items easier. it does nothing for primary weapons, the carried potions, worn magical equipment, the clothes on your back, or any other goods you keep in easy access to utilize, such as coin.
His point is, if you allowed the feat to affect any finessable weapon, no one would ever build str. Period. Str as a stat only affects melee to hit and damage, and cmb/cmd. Dexterous maneuvers removes one. If you allow dex to add to damage, than str becomes a worthless stat.
Getting reflex save, AC, initiate, to-hit, and damage from one stat is stupid. It makes dex to most important thing in the game for anyone except two-handed builds.
While I agree that Dex-to-damage is probably too powerful, I don't think it being usable with any one weapon of the player's choice is much better than it beiing usable only with scimitars.
Scimitars are the best one-handed weapons anyway. And a human character can grab the Martial Versatility feat (from ARG) and use Dex-to-damage with ALL heavy blades.
All that allowing DD to work with any one weapon would do is increase character variety.
Maybe DD shouldn't have beem published, but since that already happened, I see no problem in allowing it to be used with rapiers or daggers or whatever the player wants.
Besides, I like DD because it's the one feat that makes Duelists-ish characters actually viable.
exactly where is it published again?
exactly where is it published again?
the campaign setting line. not the core line. but the options aren't too overpowering. agile delays DR bypassing power, and dervish dance doesn't work with 2WF.
And a human character can grab the Martial Versatility feat (from ARG) and use Dex-to-damage with ALL heavy blades.
FYI, that was brought up when Martial Versatility/ARG first appeared, and Paizo (SKR?) confirmed that the RAI is to only work with things that give numeric bonuses like Weapon Finesse. I immediately felt that the non-numeric weapon specific effects were the more interesting and compelling usage of it, but that was confirmed to not be RAI... Sorry I don't have link off-hand, I'm sure it's not that difficult to dredge up in a Search.
For me, it's clearly all about flavor. Dervish Dance is specifically evocative of a 'near eastern' sufi mystical tradition, and scimitars are the weapon most appropriate to that. So it's a question if Golarion has mystic warrior dancers of a flavor appropriate to that milieu or not. This type of feat seems entirely appropriate to emphasize such a cultural flavor. Sure, i don't see any mechanical balance issue if it were open to Rapiers, for example, but that negates the uniqueness of a specific cultural reference in the game.
I do think that James Jaoobs' opinion on the crunch side of things strays into questionable territory:
as far as scimitar use is concerned, the Weapon Finesse prerequisite is almost a tax. You can still use Weapon Finesse on other legal weapons, of course, but Weapon Finesse NEVER directly helps you with a scimitar. Dervish Dance is the only feat in that short chain that actually helps you with scimitar fighting.
Weapon Finesse is hardly a Feat tax to any munchkin who is worthy of the name, because what is their character doing while investing the Feats towards Dervish Dance? The character obviously has a higher DEX than STR. WHen they take Weapon Finesse, they either can use Scimitars thusly getting zero benefit from their feat choice and not be able to use their Stat Array effectively at combat (obiously their character focus if they are planning for Dervish Dance) ...OR they can choose to use a weapon that works with Weapon Finesse, such as a Rapier or Dagger(s), and make 100% effective use of their Feat choice AND Stat Array, getting the same benefit as anybody else who doesn't plan to get Dervish Dance.
So unless you are hobbling your character to maintain a pure 'image' of Scimitar use from level 1 to 20, it's a pretty obvious choice to just use Finesse Weapons until you gain Dervish Dance, and only THEN start to use Scimitar with DEX to both attack and damage.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And a human character can grab the Martial Versatility feat (from ARG) and use Dex-to-damage with ALL heavy blades.FYI, that was brought up when Martial Versatility/ARG first appeared, and Paizo (SKR?) confirmed that the RAI is to only work with things that give numeric bonuses like Weapon Finesse. I immediately felt that the non-numeric weapon specific effects were the more interesting and compelling usage of it, but that was confirmed to not be RAI... Sorry I don't have link off-hand, I'm sure it's not that difficult to dredge up in a Search.
For me, it's clearly all about flavor. Dervish Dance is specifically evocative of a 'near eastern' sufi mystical tradition, and scimitars are the weapon most appropriate to that. So it's a question if Golarion has mystic warrior dancers of a flavor appropriate to that milieu or not. This type of feat seems entirely appropriate to emphasize such a cultural flavor. Sure, i don't see any mechanical balance issue if it were open to Rapiers, for example, but that negates the uniqueness of a specific cultural reference in the game.
I'd rather have character uniqueness than region uniqueness. Then again, I pretty much against any fluff-based restriction.
To devs I say: gives us rules and options that are mechanicaly balanced and let the players worry about fluff. At most, add a little description of classes/societies/etc that most often use the feat.I have a DD tiefling magus, and he has no relation whatsoever with Qaddira (nothing against that region from Golarion, but my Tiefling comes from Absalom).
Sure, I don't think you're a bad player for that :-), but if we ARE going to have Feats/etc with so obviously flavorful names and cultural contexts (DD is Qadira-specific campaign setting material, not generic crunch), I think it's reasonable to recognize and respect that as a design intent of said material. To just go and blatantly ignore that intent just seems to lower the level of the game.
Re: your character, I don't see a big problem there at all because Absalom and most of the Inner Sea region (and more) is reasonably familiar with Qadira, and so it would hardly be unusual for Qadiran fighting styles to have gained popularity (along with other cultural traits that may be popular). In-game-world, most knowledgeable people would recognize such a Fighting style as having Qadiran roots in some sense, leaving a Role PLay opening to explain an actual personal connection to Qadiran culture, or leave it as something that has just been broadly 'commoditized' meaning your character MAY have an 'authentic' Qadiran connection to boast about, or may not (and thus may be looked down upon as ignorant of the true heart of Dervishdom, by old-school adherents).
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wait you mean all magi come from Qadira? Ooooooh that makes sense why they all also have dervish dance.....nooooow I get it.
You ask why it's Scimitar only?
Because apparently you are a horrible munchkin having badwrongfun if any other weapons are allowed with the same bonus.
I think it's a stupid rule, and I'd use that houserule someone mentioned that it can be applied to Finesseable weapons and such.
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the last game I ran that involved this feat was a two weapon ranger that didn't read the whole feat, by the time he had realized that he couldn't used two at the same time he was sad.
So to be nice I home-brewed a "Improved Dervish Dance" that had a required Dervish dance and Two Weapon Fighting. It basically let him get his full-action two weapon offhand attacks by tossing the blade back and forth between his main hand an off hand at a -2 for all the attacks, with a greater dervish dance also requiring improved two weapon fighting that got rid of the penalty. Sure it was a bit of a feat tax but it made the guy happy.
isnt there actually a feat that lets you switch weapons from main hand to off hand to use twf off hand attacks with same weapon..... what a crazy fun build
isnt there actually a feat that lets you switch weapons from main hand to off hand to use twf off hand attacks with same weapon..... what a crazy fun build
Maybe in 3.5, but I don't think there's one for Pathfinder - if it existed I'm sure I'd have heard monk fans complain about it by now.
i think there is some kind of feat like that, but it wouldn't allow 2wf with scimitar/dervish dance because DD requires your off-hand to be open, not just any hand to be open: switching the scimitar into off-hand would defeat that purpose, that you now have your main-hand open is irrelevant.
Whats the debate here?
DD is not a CORE feat, it's a setting feat. It won't become CORE because JB and SKR think it's overpowered. JJ thinks it's fine, and would include other variants ( he has, in the Swordlord PC).
So, if it's a home game, the blueprint exists to modify it.
If it's PFS, then your stuck with DD as is, for now.
Setting feats are flavor feats. Even mechanically good ones are there for flavor. I like JJs setting feats alot more than the core feats, almost always. Setting feats have story not just mechanics. Story is always good to me.
That said.
DD is a super strong feat. DEX is always a top 3 stat. No one ever dumps it. Allowing DEX to almost completely replace STR is a mistake. While a truly SAD melee build is not really a bad thing compared to casters. That's another indictment of SAD casters more than an argument for SAD melee builds.
And the Rapier is an insanely good weapon in the CORE rules. A freebie for all elves, rogues and bards, clerics of Cayden and the whole of the full BAB classes. Does it need to be better? It's already superior to virtually the whole weapon list.
The feat tax on DD is fine the way it is. I personally think it's an elegant feat.
And part of the setting flavor is that in the setting, it's hot in Qadira. So hot that heavy armor is an unlikely choice. DEX fighters make more sense in an environment where walking around in an oven SHOULD trigger nonlethal damage environmental rules.
I'd totally allow an equivalent feat for Mwangi short spears, Vudran kukris and urumis, maybe even Osiriani khopeshes,or Katapeshi Scorpion Whips. Long Swords and Battle axes? Not so much.