theJeff> well if you quoted the RAW as well, then we're fine :)
**you cannot cast while falling UNLESS the spell is an immediate action like feather fall **
so we all agree (despite the fact that I missed some important parts, hey Matthew ;p ) that FF fully works
Wait what?
All that lets you do is cast the spell, you still need the check.
The full quote, But I'm sure you knew you cliped it.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level.
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A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level.
I've been thinking... some more. What I'm thinking is this rule is just poorly worded.
I'm willing to say that, RAW, what this rule states is that you cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet, and casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check, and casting a spell which can be cast as an immediate action is an exception to all of this.
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I must admit that I suspect the writer was trying to say that:-
• you can't cast a spell when falling, unless you fall over 500 feet
• if you fall over 500 feet, then you can cast a spell, but have to make a DC20+spell level concentration check
• however, you can cast a spell with a casting time of one immediate action at any time during the fall. There is no concentration check needed in this case
Looking at the language that was used, this seems reasonable to me. It would also match up with two other things in the game system:-
• Feather Fall is intended to work! Even for a first level caster!
• spells with swift and immediate casting times do not provoke attacks of opportunity
Even a spell that would normally provoke, like Fireball, would not provoke if it were quickened. It's not a great leap (no pun intended) for me to believe that casting a spell so quickly that opponents can't react to it would also be so quick as the air rushing past would not affect your ability to cast it.
I would rule it that way. The only problem is ... overly-literal interpretation of the rules as written over rules as intended. I'm biting my tongue on the phrase "rules robots" here, honestly - I get that it's important to understand the literal meaning of the rules, but a lot of the rules are actually written very sloppily.
So have fun in PFS now you can never cast a feather fall reliably again, guys! /sarcasm
I would rule it that way. The only problem is ... overly-literal interpretation of the rules as written over rules as intended. I'm biting my tongue on the phrase "rules robots" here, honestly - I get that it's important to understand the literal meaning of the rules, but a lot of the rules are actually written very sloppily.
The RAI are that the GM's word should be respected... I wonder how a new GM might best learn the game's systems if not the RAW? Because, really now, if I wanted to GM, I'm free to create my own group aren't I?
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The best way a GM can learn is to go play under a lot of different and experienced other GMs. Pathfinder Society is a great place to do this.
I've been a GM for 30 years but it certainly helped me to become a lot better once I saw many different GM styles and also to GM for many different players with different play styles.
The best way a GM can learn is to go play under a lot of different and experienced other GMs. Pathfinder Society is a great place to do this.
I've been a GM for 30 years but it certainly helped me to become a lot better once I saw many different GM styles and also to GM for many different players with different play styles.
That's a very good point.
Unfortunately, it's not always possible. Where you live is, alas, one of the main problems with PnP table-top gaming: it is almost always a crippling restriction. VTTs may allow a great deal of connectivity, but if the main reason that the player is involved in the game in the first place is the face-to-face social environment, I can't see the guy realistically seeking out other groups just to get a bit of experience.
"Too much work", leaving the comfort zone, etc. etc.
Like it or not, we usually don't have perfect freedom (or, in this case, motivation) to choose our gaming groups. As far as motivation goes, if the GM isn't aware that his performance has problems, or is actually confident in his ability, it's that much more difficult to suggest, as it were, a "seminar" in Game Mastering...
Regardless, I think we all agree this rule needs to be revised in future editions.
Regardless, I think we all agree this rule needs to be revised in future editions.
Absolutely.
That, or Paizo could always start requiring Monks to hit a touch AC of, what, 29? in order to slow their falls...
Depends. Delayed reactions in a moment of shock (like someone coming out of nowhere and pushing you off a ledge while you didn't expect it to happen) are… well, just true.
The odd thing here is when and how far the caster falls. On one hand, they should fall right when pushed - they don't just hover just off the cliff until their turn arrives, do they? On the other hand, they can't exactly fall six seconds and then take their own six seconds turn… (Or if that's how it's handled, do they get to hover during their turn?)
So, basically, how far do they fall until it's their turn and they stop being flat-footed? What if they were bull-rushed during a surprise round they didn't get to act in, and have to wait for the surprise round and the first round of combat?
It's really more of a problem with turn-based time, and half a dozen people each taking 6 second turns after one another while it all still takes only 6 seconds in total.
I believe somewhere there's an FAQ where they said Feather Fall didn't require a concentration check to cast from falling, though other things could cause it to require a concentration check, like ongoing damage.
I believe somewhere there's an FAQ where they said Feather Fall didn't require a concentration check to cast from falling
I believe that there is no such FAQ, but I don't know how to prove it.
I believe somewhere there's an FAQ where they said Feather Fall didn't require a concentration check to cast from fallingI believe that there is no such FAQ, but I don't know how to prove it.
It's possible. My memory is far from perfect. But the spell doesn't work if there is a concentration check to cast it due to falling, in which case the spell would have little purpose. Or rather it would have nonsensical results.
Like you can only cast feather fall if you're falling 500 or more feet and you have to make a concentration check to do so. A concentration check with a high enough DC that low level characters, who will be the ones most likely to rely on feather fall, will be unable to do so.
Or we accept, even with or without FAQ, that some degree of common sense is necessary and that the spell should work since this is its exact purpose.
the spell doesn't work if there is a concentration check to cast it due to falling, in which case the spell would have little purpose.
Why are you trying to cast Feather Fall on yourself? That's like saying Remove Paralysis is useless if you can't cast it while paralysed.
You're the wizard, not the guy whose job it is to lead the way and trigger the concealed pit traps. The whole purpose of them specifying that it require a concentration check is that it's a spell with the intended use of protecting your allies when you see them fall. It's called teamwork!
(Honestly, I'd allow someone to cast it on themselves 'before they start falling', I just don't think it's as obvious as most people say...)
I believe somewhere there's an FAQ where they said Feather Fall didn't require a concentration check to cast from fallingI believe that there is no such FAQ, but I don't know how to prove it.
I can confirm that there is no such FAQ for the Core Rulebook. It would be weird if it is in the FAQ section for another book.
It says that immediate actions (not even swift ones) can be cast during falling.
...and that then it immediately says that they need a concentration check.
And it seems silly that immediate actions can require a concentration check. especially when there are no somatic or material components...
When there are no components, the only thing a spell requires is mental concentration. It seems silly to me that immediate actions wouldn't require concentration checks when that's nowhere in the rules. It's established that interrupts can be interrupted, as when you use a Readied Action to fire an arrow to force a concentration check on a spell that might itself have been a readied or immediate action...
Is "Bull rush the flat footed wizard into the pit to his death because he has low hp and can't cast feather fall while flat footed" intended to work?!?!
We don't know what's intended. We're not psychic, and Paizo aren't answering a lot of FAQs.
It seems a reasonable thing to allow a martial to do. Getting a wizard low on HP, making him flat footed and shoving him into a pit is a pretty difficult. Killing him with a sword while he's flat footed and low on HP is a lot easier.
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Immediate action spellcasting is still spellcasting and thus still requires concentration. Literally nothing suggests that feather fall is an exception. I'm at a loss as to the purpose of this thread or its revival.
I think it's because it doesn't meet expectations of function for people.
A low level wizard can't save himself from falling.
I think it's because it doesn't meet expectations of function for people.
A low level wizard can't save himself from falling.
Sure they can--just not reliably. : D
That does seem like a very high DC (is falling "extremely violent motion"?) but them's the breaks. They can still save their friend from falling without issue.
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Also, by the rules, you can cast it (as its an immediate effect) if you fall or a pit opens under you as a trap or part of movement normally, but if you're flat-footed, such as an enemy opens up combat with a create pit or bull rush to push you off a ledge, you cannot, since you cannot use swift or immediate actions while flat-footed.
Not saying I disagree that it should be exempt from a concentration check... but I would like to bring up the fact that when a trap is triggered... initiative gets rolled.
Unless otherwise stated, most traps have a duration of instantaneous; once triggered, they have their effect and then stop functioning. Some traps have a duration measured in rounds. Such traps continue to have their listed effect each round at the top of the initiative order (or whenever they were activated, if they were triggered during combat).The pit trap would be at the top of the initiative order, thus, everyone would be flat-footed until their turn.
Just saying.
You are applying a specific rule for traps with an effect that lasts more than 1 round as a generic rule. It isn't.
It is a specific rule for traps that have an effect measured in rounds. And immediately contradicted by "or whenever they were activated", so the effect is applied at the initiative when the trap was triggered if you are already taking actions that are counted in rounds. Only if the trap started a multi-round event it automatically gets the highest initiative.
And you aren't flat-footed by a new event if counting initiative has started. Your dexterity bonus to AC can be negated, but that isn't the same thing.
And again, you are flat-footed only if you are surprised. If the trap was detected but no one was able to disarm it there is no surprise round.
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When a trap is sprung, initiative is rolled. That's not applying something that is a niche case to all traps.
And a pit obviously continues to last for more than one round if that is your problem. Therefore, it would, as a trap that continues to have an effect after it is triggered, automatically gets the highest initiative count, and even if it didn't, it would still "act first" as that is when it was triggered.
The exact test you cited contradict your statement:
Unless otherwise stated, most traps have a duration of instantaneous; once triggered, they have their effect and then stop functioning.
A pit trap stops functioning as a trap as soon as it is sprung. After that, it is a simple hole.
Some traps have a duration measured in rounds. Such traps ...
What follows this text applies only to traps that have a duration listed in rounds. A pit trap has no listed duration.
Such traps continue to have their listed effect each round at the top of the initiative order (or whenever they were activated, if they were triggered during combat).
Only traps with a duration listed in rounds have a position in the initiative order. Otherwise initiative doesn't even start unless you are in combat.
"Acting First" and making the characters flat-footed are two different things.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are f lat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while f lat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Being caught in a trap (barring specific kinds of traps, like a trap that cast Black tentacles) don't start a battle.
No battle, no flat-footed (again barring specific, explicit rules for specific situations).If you can find a citation that supports your opinion, show it, but the one you cited doesn't do that.
"I attack the pit."
/"You got any Mountain Dew!?"
Immediate action spellcasting is still spellcasting and thus still requires concentration. Literally nothing suggests that feather fall is an exception. I'm at a loss as to the purpose of this thread or its revival.
While it is still spellcasting, I have always seen it played as the immediate action happens before the thing you activate it for. Therefore, when you realize that you are about to fall, you are not yet falling and thus don't need the concentration check to cast Feather Fall.
Attacks of Opportunities also are wonky that way. They resolve before the action that triggered it.
/cevah
Immediate action spellcasting is still spellcasting and thus still requires concentration. Literally nothing suggests that feather fall is an exception. I'm at a loss as to the purpose of this thread or its revival.While it is still spellcasting, I have always seen it played as the immediate action happens before the thing you activate it for. Therefore, when you realize that you are about to fall, you are not yet falling and thus don't need the concentration check to cast Feather Fall.
Attacks of Opportunities also are wonky that way. They resolve before the action that triggered it.
/cevah
It's tempting, but there are a couple of issues with that:
1. While there are many immediate actions that become available in response to specific triggers and may or may not resolve before such triggers, immediate actions as a class don't work that way. They're simply actions. The creature decides to take the action and it happens. This would indicate that you could cast feather fall either just before falling or while already falling, except that . . .
2. . . . feather fall targets one or more free-falling objects or creatures. If you are not yet falling, you are not a valid target.