zaphod77's page

It says that immediate actions (not even swift ones) can be cast during falling. And it seems silly that immediate actions can require a concentration check. especially when there are no somatic or material components.

" If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell."

For an immediate action, there's nothing to interrupt. therefore, no concentration check. They are interrupts themselves.

This lets feather fall work as intended. Don't tell me you've never had a pit trap with an area much wider than it's trigger.

Just be glad Catfall was fixed in pathfinder to be immediate instead of swift. it was completely unusable in combat at ALL as originally written, because it was a swift action.

Is "Bull rush the flat footed wizard into the pit to his death because he has low hp and can't cast feather fall while flat footed" intended to work?!?!

What this means is that out of combat, spell resistance is assumed to be lowered so the spell can be cast. but because spell resistance takes a standard action to lower, that cannot be assumed in combat.

That said, if the spell says spell resistance:Yes; see text, there is precedent for assuming it goes through if it's harmless. This is true specifically of the cure spells, where it says undead can save and apply spell resistance. This is because the spells are Conjuration (Healing) and Conjuration tends to bypass spell resistance. The spell conjures the positive energy. but that doesn't mean you can use them as an attack spell. hence "Spell Resistance: Yes; see text." ONLY the cure x wounds spells have this text, though.

I would rule that when used on a target that it healed by positive energy, that all conjuration (Healing) spells bypass spell resistance. But not when used vs undead. I believe it is RAI that Conjuration (Healing) spells bypass spell resistance when they are used to heal in the same manner that they bypass saves. Effectively, anyone can drop their spell resistance for free for just long enough to receive a cure spell, even when unconscious, and is assumed to do so unless the player says otherwise. Otherwise, it's on unless dropped.

If the spell is not Conjuration (Healing), then you gotta beat the SR unless they spend the action to drop it.

i'm guessing that it was intended that immediate actions not require concentration checks, and that the casting while falling was for long falls and non immediate action spells.

What is silly is that bull rushing a flat footed person into a pit denies them the ability to cast feather fall, unless it's on the ring. was THAT intended?

This is a nasty combo.

How i read it is this.

1) maze must be cast first. otherwise, the dimensional lock blocks access to the astral plane, which blocks the maze spell.
2) if the creature fails the int check, you have time to cast the dimensional lock.
3) if the creature makes the int check after then, or the maze runs out before the lock, the creature gets shunted to the astral plane upon destruction of the maze. It can then plane shift back to within 5-500 miles of the spot. this is most likely outside the dimensional lock.
4) alternatively, simply plane shift to out of range of the dimensional lock while inside the maze. this works too. once back on the same plane, any decent teleport spell can be used to get just outside the area, and then it can be re-entered.

The dimensional lock can't be targeted from outside the plane it is in. that's kinda the point. it would be rather silly if it could be targeted from outside the plane. I'm not sure if spell resistance helps from outside the plane either, but it might.

Here are the cases.

1) normal touch attack. The sneak attack becomes part of the harm, and can't reduce below 1.
2) charge delivered through a normal attack. The sneak attack damage is same type as the normal attack. Say it's a punch. The harm damage cannot bring the person below 1, and the sneak attack tacks on subdual damage. This is actually pretty awesome, as harm+punch subdual=sneak attack subdual will knock out the target, because subdual damage is greater than current hit points. Note that this still won't kill with Harm. But you CAN get the knockout, if your punch deals subdual damage. If your attack that delivers the charge deals normal damage, then it gets tricky. I'm inclined to believe the spell discharge triggers after, in which case it still will not kill.

TL:DR; Harm vs touch AC cannot kill. even with sneak attack. As part of a subdual daamge attack, Harm CAN cause a knock out.

I agree that it's pretty obvious what rules as intended are, but munchkins live and die by RAW, and without digging into a faq, the answer is simply not there in the rules themselves, and without it being actually stated anywhere in a rule, and said munchkin going with specifically what's written...

The ruling i mentioned specifically mentioned ability damage along with the enervation, which neatly sidestepped the issue. Carrying it forward solves the issue in the rules completely and is not in any way game breaking.

btw it seems that crits DO work with ability damage, yet sneak attacks do not. just checked again. so what you are all sayign is that you CAN crit with calcific touch, but not sneak attack? that seems entirely arbitrary.

Spells and Critical Hits

A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.

Actually, it's not, as near as I can tell.

Ability damage doesn't actually reduce the ability while it's effect lasts. Instead, it applies a penalty to derived stats and skills, with a special affect when it's equal to the stat.

This is because even if your current stat is even, it takes two points of ability damage to affect things, as written in the ability score section.

Well, munchkins are very good at reading exact words. :)

The main issue is that the rules don't actually say "ability damage is not damage". In fact, they specifically say it is damage.

Hence the confusion.

We need a better argument then "Ability damage isn't damage, even though the rules say it is." :)

It doesn't help that my example actually makes sense, as precision based calcification would logically work extra well. The only reason it doesn't work according to the clarifications is "it would be broken".

I take it it's also not supposed to be possible for shadows to crit with their strength damaging attack, because crits only affect HP damage?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/BASICS-ABILITY-SCORES/GLOSSARY/#Damage

Special Damage Types

Ability Damage: Ability damage is a special type of damage that applies to a creatures ability scores

therefore, ability damage is damage, RAW, and a spell that rolls to hit and deals only it can deal sneak attack ability damage.

And sneak attack doesn't specifically refer to hit point damage either.

I know this cannot possibly be RAI, but a strict reading of the rules appears to allow this bit of munchkinry.

I also know that pretty much every spell that used to apply ability damage instead applies a non stacking penalty specifically to stop this stunt, and to prevent easy incapacitates by targeting weak stats.

Note that monster attacks that deal ability damage can crit too. 20/2, and it gets doubled. Imagine a couple shadows with rogue levels. This would seem to work, RAW as well, because RAW says ability damage is a type of damage.

Sneak attack can't add to poison because the poison is additional damage, not the primary damage of the attack. Most of the spells that used to deal ability damage were patched specifically to stop their abuse in the hands of PCs. Calcific Touch is the only one remaining that i've found.

I do see the clarification, but it specifically calls out weapon specialization. Also, drain is not damage (and thus can't have damage added to it of the same type), and an ability penalty is not damage either.

But unless, the rules are written (specifically ,the patch that says that the sneak attack damage from ability damage is negative energy HP damage that was put into this game before it became pathfinder and got left out) or the spell is fixed to exclude sneak attacks as clearly intended, the strict reading appears to say it works. Note that damage reduction does not work against energy damage (but energy resistance does) but that sneak attack CAN add to energy damage if it's the primary. The example of Acid Arrow works just fine (with it only adding to the initial damage). Damage reduction not working is not in itself a reason to disqualify sneak attack from adding to it, as we have an obvious counterexample.

But if it is intended that ability damage not be damage, then perhaps the relevant definition should say this.

Ability Damage: Ability damage is not actually damage, but applies a penalty to the relevant ability score. When a creature has ability damage, a penalty equal to half of the current amount of ability damage rounded down is applied to all calculated stats affected by the ability. Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal ability damage. This damage does not actually reduce an ability. When ability damage to an ability is equal to the ability, the creature becomes unconscious, or dead if the ability is constitution. Because ability damage is not actually damage, damage reduction does not prevent it. Abilities that don't specifically state that they modify or affect ability damage do not affect it.

This is how it is intended to actually work.

Sneak attack damage is possible with spells that roll to hit, if you are within 30 feet.

Sneak attack damage with a spell is th same type of damage as the spell. e.g. sneak attack damage from an acid arrow is acid damage.

Ability damage is a special type of damage, therefore it is damage.

Therefore if a spell uses a roll to hit, and deals ability damage, the sneak attack damage is also ability damage. There was a ruling made for 3.5 that said it as negative energy damage, but this rule was not carried forward that I can see.

Most spells that used to deal ability damage now apply an ability penalty, so you can't sneak attack with them.

Calcific Touch still deals ability damage.

Greater Invisibility+Calcific touch=sneak attack that deals dex against ac 10 for normal size targets. If you hit and beat spell resistance, you can have a decent shot at insta petrify, as the save does not prevent the damage.

RAW, this appears to work. Calcific Touch is clearly intended to be able to reduce Dex to zero so it can paralyze. it's supposed to take multiple hits to do so.

Is there some obscure rule that exists in pathfinder that prevents this stunt?

If not, i propose one of the following fixes.

1) import the obscure rule from dnd that sneak attack damage from an ability damage/drain/negative level attack is negative energy hp damage. This fixes every possible existing and future case.
2) rewrite Calcific Touch such that it applies a stacking penalty that can equal the current stat, and when it does so, petrifies the target as intended, but cannot have sneak attack damage added to it.

But that's not what the rules of non lethal damage SAY. They say that if current non lethal damage exceeds current hitpoints, you go unconscious. It says nothing whatsoever about either of them being zero or negative.

In fact, Ferocity doesn't work at all, because RAW, hitpoints DO go negative, and at that point your hitpoint total is less than the non lethal damage, even if that non lethal damage is zero.

This is clearly not RAI.

If it intended that it be impossible to knock out a creature with Ferocity with damage, then the ability should be changed to specifically say that if a creature with ferocity would go unconscious from damage or lethal damage, they instead become staggered if they are not already staggered, and take one point of bleed damage each round. This bring the ability in line with that intention, and this is how I would house rule it.

AvalonXQ above may be right about RAI. If so ferocity needs the following change.

A creature with ferocity only becomes unconscious due to damage when hitpoints minus non lethal damage is equal to or less than negative constitution. This makes a creature with ferocity harder to knock out than one without it still, but it's now possible without incapacitating magic.

I can't see any other possible intended interpretations for ferocity.

It's pretty clear. for ranged attacks, if there is a color that stops the attack left, then the attack is stopped.

Melee attacks count as passing through the wall.

The book states that the violet effect makes all others redundant. This applies to the blocking effect.

For attacks from outside the wall, the violet and the matching color both block it. If the attacker has spell resistance, two caster level checks are needed to penetrate the wall. Without it, there is no hope to pierce it without bringing down the entire wall.

For melee attacks or otherwise passing through the wall, each color is applied in order, requiring seven caster level checks and seven saves to resist all the colors. If the damage or poison kills you, the stone effect is automatic, as the spell doesn't say LIVING creature, and only a living one gets to save. If killed or stoned before you get to the insanity effect, the insanity effect is useless. The plane shift effect automatically works unless the poor sap is still alive after dealing with the other colors, then it can be saved against or resisted. Without spell resistance, the poor sap trying to go through takes a minimum of 70 damage (unless he has evasion), has to survive the poison, save vs the flesh to stone spell, save vs insanity, and if still alive and not a statue, save vs the plane shift.

Immunity to all Fortitude save effects would instantly make this a Monstrous Trait.

Except that undead already have that, and they ARE a race type.

well, for example, darkvision is obviously 3 RP, since abberation race only comes with it.

low light vision itself is also similarly stated out (recall it being two).

This makes immunity to sleep and paralysis 5 RP. but a that point my figuring broke down.

So i was trying to stat out the rp costs of immunities, and rp breaks for qualities.

As for no hands, yeah, it cripples a lot of classes. but not ALL. (blink dog monk anyone?)

Deathless only "broader immunities" that they have that undead don't are towards undead specific stuff. which everything else is ALREADY immune to.

All cantrips are at will anyway in pathfinder. So i'd give them RP cost of 1, with level 1 at will of 2. Also need to work out similar guidelines for 1 and 3 time a day. RP cost would be less.

I do think deathless is better than undead for PCs, so cost should be higher. may still be undercosted at construct level because the inflict/heal reversal is a major penalty to undead as a PC. but then again turning by evil clerics sucks too.

I do think it would be useful to work out how to fit more abilities into the system though i understand why they are missing.

And i'm aware that at will makes certain spells (invisibility anyone?) more powerful then they should be. That's why the ring of invisibilty is more expensive then other rings of it's level. so i'd compare a normal magic item of the same cost as the unusually expensive item, and use it's spell level as the basis for the RP cost. 1 or 3/day invisibility would be normal RP cost for that class, since only at will invisibility is unusually powerful.

The monstrous pc rules of "CR as level" are quick and easy, but they also include the racial hit dice, and CR doesn't take into account PC utility for powers. While an ability may be worth a certain CR on a monster, it may be MORE useful on a PC. Blink dogs are a example. their blink and dimension door is a large part of their CR. But it could be abused better as a player character. I posted the example of the blink dog MONK with abundant step and dimensional dervish. MASTERS of hit and run. you thought spring attack was bad? Imagine teleporting while doing it. nah nah nah, you can't hit me and I can hit you...

Seems the way to go is simply houserule adjustment to monstrous PC rules when needed?

Oh. and cyclops insight power? VERY abusable on a PC. (it's the one that lets you flip your d20 to a 20 once per day) auto confirming a crit is nice. auto saving a difficult save or suck is nice.

This is from BoED and Eberron.

The differences between deathless and undead are.

1) deathless are powered by positive energy instead of negative. this has the following below effects.
2) Deathless are NOT immune to drain, but still immune to other effects requiring fortitude save, and to ability damage). (this is a disadvantage compared to undead)
3) deathless can be rebuked by those who channel positive energy, and harmed/turned by those who channel negative energy. this is overall a disadvantage, but only if the cleric can turn you. normal neg channeling channeling hurts you same as living. control by good NPCs isn't really too much of a disadvantage since good NPCs are bound by their alignment. :)
4) deathless are healed by positive energy, and harmed by negative. therefore they can receive normal healing jut fine. big advantage for PC.
5) spells that have extra effect on undead do not affect deathless differently. they have reduced vulnerability to searing light. advantage to pc vs undead for sure.
6) spells that specifically affect or create undead, (other then detection) except for detection do not affect deathless (animate dead, control undead, etc.). but there are deathless specific versions of those spells, with opposite alignment descriptors, which are known to your setting if deathless exist. There owuld, for exmaple be a separate invisibility to deathless spell, though i'd rule that normal invisibility works fine against them.

Are they the same RP? more RP?

The deathless type would seem to convert well to this system, but i can't figure out what RP the various component of the undead race are to estimate.

Also, how to i estimate the RP costs of stuff like "at will dimension door" (blink dog) and "no hands" (blink dogs again) or "pell always on"? am i to assume that if it's not listed, pcs cant' have it with the new system?

I'm well aware that certain spells are overpowered for their level in certain contexts. i expect that magic item cost would be a good idea to work out the RP.

Blink dogs have sick advantages to make up for lack of hands.

Locked door? Dimension door through it. Oh what, it's dangerous on the other side? Dimension door back, it's quickened. Unless you are actually in initiative, the "no other actions this round" doesn't matter.

Go into dimensional agility line (first feat you get to chose) and you can do SERIOUS combat abuse of at will dimension door.

Sure you will miss 20% of the time from blinking, but you have insane mobility.

Everything go to heck in a handbasket? Flee with dimension door. No attack of opportunity provoked. Few things can catch up. Something teleports to you? unless it's got dimensional agility too, you door away again before it acts.

Blink dogs are VERY good at harassment.:)

That's what you do as a blink dog pc. get dimensional agiliy ASAP and abuse at will dimension door. Add in dimensional dervish, and as mentioned before you get frightening.

and don't forget the 50% miss chance for your active blink, which you cannot turn off. the 20% miss chance for you is trumped by the 50% miss chance of THEM.

Now be a monk, and you get abundant step. NOW we are talking. you move with abundant step, not provoking attack of opportunity, attack, then dimension door away, also not provoking attack of opportunity. add on dimensional dervish to THAT, and you can attack multiple times and use flurry of blows, and get away. And hey, blink dogs are lawful, so they qualify for monk class. they get speed, they get armor bonuses...

As written, magic aura DOES seem to block detect magic when used to mask an aura, but identify seems gives the chance to pierce it.

Problem is, it's a known spell, so that any wizard worth his salt will know to continue the spell regardless to the point of allowing the save.

Since Mask Dweomer does truly block it for active spells, and is also level 1 with a duration in days, i'd rule that magic aura does the same when cast in non detection mode, but arcane sight or equivalent or better will pierce the nondetection part, since the spell is less specialized.

I'd also rule that once you realize the non aura is fake, through either piercing it or seeing evidence to the contrary you still need a will save to properly analyse the true aura.