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The party is me CG, a N fighter with good leanings, a NG dwarf ranger, and a CN sorcerer with good leanings. This guy has played thus far a LG teifling paladin, a CN tengu, a CE orc, and now this LE gnome sorcerer.
He claims he can't play anything good, which is a major bummer for me. I don't like feeling a party member could turn on me at any moment. When it slipped that he was evil OOC, I literally thought "God f-Ing d#&@ it!" luckily I didn't say it out loud. Am I being a baby? This is the first game I've played with awesome party cohesion. We are all actually friends IC.
I can't help but feel uneasy about this whole thing.
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Lawful evil is probably the most palatable of the evils.
A a LE he's probably completely true to his word though don't expect him to be so willing to go save burning orphanages. As a gnome I'd expect him to be very strict about his agreements, obsessive even.
I get that, but personally I don't like it. I enjoy being the hero. And it angers me that he keeps rotating these evilesque characters. I just want a "good guys" game. This, until this guy joined was one for the most part. I have a knot in my stomach now.
Turning on the party and killing everyone is more of a chaotic evil thing IMO. Lawful evil isn't so bad as far as watching your back and as long as there is no paladin I don't see why it would be a problem. If everyone in the party likes chocolate what's wrong with one of them liking devils food cake ya know?
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A lot of people worry too much about "alignment" when what they're really worried about is party cohesion. The important thing is that they aren't playing the party backstabber. Even a LG Paladin who tosses the rogue in jail (or even worse just straight kills) for being too greedy can be a disruption to fun gameplay.
meh, some of the best framing of alignment i've found are in the chronicals dragonlance series (weis and hickman). It brings to light a whole other dimension to the good-evil that the fantacy characters have. If you don't feel like reading, just keep his behavior in perspective as it relates to you and your party.
There will soon be a paladin, a pharasman house ruled as LN. I am the only player who has a problem with evil characters, And I hate it. But it's my gut reaction.
If this is really a problem, talk to your GM. He may agree with you that a heroic game is what he intended, and the other player needs to learn how to play other alignments or needs to find another game.
Or, it may be that you're the one with the problem, and you may need to find another game. I do not know, I do not accuse, and I do not intend to offend -- that may just be how it is.
Either way, talk to your GM and the other players, first.
Appeal to the Lawful part of his character. Build up some loyalty with him. Once you've saved each other's backs a few times as long as he isn't sacrificing innocents behind your back then he's little more than selfish.
Also an evilesque character in a good group can add other options tothe some situations... think of the lovable but evil halfling ranger in oots, or of artimis entreri or jarlaxle in salvatores books...
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Clearly the kindest thing you can do is stab them in the gut. It's the LG thing to do.
Another thing to note: Alignment is not a straitjacket. Most people are actually good at heart, since they don't just cause havoc, kill and murder -- they usually want to get along with their fellow beings. He may want to boss them around a bit, but that's not lawful evil, that's just wanting to be the guy in charge.
If he's acting more good than evil, eh. Again, alignment isn't locking you down into certain behavior patterns.
If he turns on you at a whim, that isn't lawful -- that's chaotic.
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i had a lawful evil inquisitor inside an otherwise goodish party. she was a follower of Zon-Kuthon and a prison warden with a hellknight attitude gone extreme. the group knew she was evil, and she took no effort to hide it, but her plan was to spread justice like a combination of Judge Dredd, Gogo Yubari, and Vladimir Tepes with a hint of Cenobite thrown in. the group didn't quite approve of her gruesome methods, most of which would be extremely gross, cruel, sadistic, and savage violations of the Geneva Convention. but they got results the party benefitted from greatly. all sorts of gross mutilation techniques were applied whenever possible, but it helped gather intelligence, and put a major thorn in lamashtu's side. she always had at least 30 pounds of salt, some fishing tools, a field surgeon's kit, at least 30 pounds of silk rope, some source of portable small magical fire similar to a lighter and similar items intended for torture inside her handy haversack.
evil characters can travel with a good party just fine, and Yamiko wasn't much worse than bringing a hellknight jailer. she took the letter of the law to the extreme. insulting her methods was punishable by death.
not everybody is mature enough to play an evil character, but Yamiko did not follow the book of vile darkness at all. she used a lot of field torture methods from north and south american tribes. some of which are too grotesque to post on these forums. don't try and replicate her unless you are going hardcore NC17 with the gore and your group is similarly accepting and sufficiently mature.
We just left game, so the emotions are still fresh, so maybe in the morning I'll feel better.
He's obsessive over his contracts, but the player is smart enough to put loopholes in. I don't want to be a whiny baby, and these guys are all good friends. My real life boyfriend is even my husband in game.
leaving is not really an option.
How do I get over this?
We just left game, so the emotions are still fresh, so maybe in the morning I'll feel better.
He's obsessive over his contracts, but the player is smart enough to put loopholes in. I don't want to be a whiny baby, and these guys are all good friends. My real life boyfriend is even my husband in game.
leaving is not really an option.How do I get over this?
Lawful Evil is the most acceptable evil out there. you can roleplay disdain for the individual's actions. though i imagine, gnome plus sorcerer means pyromaniac, and pyromaniacs mean arson issues, arson burns establishments, which causes chaos. i doubt a pyromaniac can call himself lawful. if the gnome harms you, you have the right to harm him back. PVP is a two way street. grappling him should be ludicrously easy and pinning him even more so. did he even remember a proper melee weapon?
if he continues to be disruptive, suspend him for a bit.
Is him playing evil characters ever been a problem before?
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The real solution depends on what exactly it is about evil characters you don't like.
If the problem is, "He might turn on us" then it's not alignment it's the player.
If the problem is, "He'll put us in uncomfortable positions" then it's not the alignment, but the player playing his character like a fool.
If the problem is, "His character holds beliefs and does actions that make me (as a player) uncomfortable" then you should talk about it, out of game.
If the problem is, "His character holds beliefs and does actions that make my character (or other characters in the party) uncomfortable" then you should roleplay it when it comes up.
If the problem is that you're worried that the party will fall apart when such issues come up, the real issue is that you don't trust the other player/s (or yourself) to play characters that will put their differences aside.
I'm afraid one of his contracts will screw us over in the end. And now my dog just threw up. Perfect end to a perfect day. :(
I'm afraid one of his contracts will screw us over in the end. And now my dog just threw up. Perfect end to a perfect day. :(
Dog's throw up. It comes from constant bum and genital licking and eating anything that smells interesting. It's a dog thing.
It's still better then cat throw up. And at least he did not do something like eat your wallet first.
This is the first game I've played with awesome party cohesion. We are all actually friends IC.
This is the main thing. Evil people can have friends too, and if the player seems committed to party cohesion, and the character seems to be genuine friends with the rest of the party, there's no reason why things can't continue on as before.
Good luck!
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Some people here are going to argue what a bad person/wimp/jerk you are for not letting the guy play whatever he wants. Others are going to make a case for evil games/evil characters as if they never were, and never will be disruptive or bad at all. (Some are, some aren't.)
That's all horse pie. Those people know it.
But the short and only true and right answer is this. It's a game. You gotta have fun or there's no reason for playing it. To have fun, you gotta be comfortable. And if you're not comfortable with evil characters around, you get to say so and you are not a bad person for saying so calmly and respectfully.
So tell your GM respectfully how you feel, and ask him if it is worth it to mention it to the player out-of-game, or if the GM is okay with mitigating this in-game.
But say something, and suffer no guilt.
I feel your pain. As a GM, I flat out ban evil alignments. Heroic fantasy depends on you being, you know... a hero. If a player has a... rough... concept in mind we can usually get there without them being actually evil. As a player though, you don't have that kind of control.
It really depends on how the other player approaches playing his character more than his actual alignment. If he behaves in a way that derails the game that's something for your group as a whole to deal with. If he wants to RP an evil character that for some reason is out saving the world with the rest of you more power to him.
We just left game, so the emotions are still fresh, so maybe in the morning I'll feel better.
He's obsessive over his contracts, but the player is smart enough to put loopholes in. I don't want to be a whiny baby, and these guys are all good friends. My real life boyfriend is even my husband in game.
leaving is not really an option.How do I get over this?
Is he somehow disruptive to the game?
All some people see is "evil" and think that they will kill the rest of the party. Evil isn't the problem, the problem comes from idiot players who write down evil on their sheet and then play a psychopath.
I mean a Judge who takes bribes to allow criminals to go free or innocent people to go to jail could be evil. Does that mean he is a killer who will turn on his friends?
Or the guard who turns a blind eye to certain crimes could be evil. Not all evil means a psycho who kills and stabs backs and not all evil should be punished with death. The "Lawful Good" Paladin who detects evil on someone and kills them for it is just as bad.
So what has this player done to provoke such mistrust from you?
Try to always keep player knowledge vs. character knowledge in mind. If your fellow gamer isn't a complete b$%+#**% he won't do anything even in character that would truly jeopardize party or group cohesion. Our group is playing alignments all over the board too and we have a general unwritten rule that characters can't do anything to screw p the game for other players. Might be worth letting your concerns known so your friend can set your mind at ease. It is part of your GM's job to see that it doesn't turn ugly. Conversely, you and the rest of your party could always level the playing field if need be by surreptitiously liberating him of some gold or items. I don't recommend this last bit but it would be funny.
I'm afraid one of his contracts will screw us over in the end. And now my dog just threw up. Perfect end to a perfect day. :(Dog's throw up. It comes from constant bum and genital licking and eating anything that smells interesting. It's a dog thing.
It's still better then cat throw up. And at least he did not do something like eat your wallet first.
Well my roommate's cat is bulimic.
if he wastes resources intentionally backstabbing the party, don't waste resources saving him, and keep his rest to a minimum.
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Some people here are going to argue what a bad person/wimp/jerk you are for not letting the guy play whatever he wants. Others are going to make a case for evil games/evil characters as if they never were, and never will be disruptive or bad at all. (Some are, some aren't.)
That's all horse pie. Those people know it.
But the short and only true and right answer is this. It's a game. You gotta have fun or there's no reason for playing it. To have fun, you gotta be comfortable. And if you're not comfortable with evil characters around, you get to say so and you are not a bad person for saying so calmly and respectfully.
So tell your GM respectfully how you feel, and ask him if it is worth it to mention it to the player out-of-game, or if the GM is okay with mitigating this in-game.
But say something, and suffer no guilt.
So are you saying the one persons fun should trump the other persons?
I'm afraid one of his contracts will screw us over in the end.
You should probably bring it up with someone, either the GM or the player. You're uncomfortable playing into what feels like doom. The best thing is communication. Without it, games fall apart. If you are really all friends then you should be able to work something out. If you hold those feelings inside, all it amounts to is people exploding at each other and frindships breaking apart because of a 'game'.
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If your character wanted to live safely (s)he'd stay at home, not be an adventurer.
Adventuring has dangers more subtle than monsters; people who have different values.
You do not adventure because it is easy but because it is hard!
You think your worldview is better than his. It's time to practice what you preach. Not because it is easy but because it is hard.
Play your own character's alignment. Show, by your deeds, that your worldview is a better way to live. 'Good' should allow for the possibility of redemption, and you're more likely to achieve that by engaging than turning your back.
I'm not religious myself, but one of the things that Jesus did is minister, not to the people who attended the synagogue and were 'good', but to thieves and prostitutes because who needed salvation more than them?
If you're looking for a way to play a character that is 'good', it's easy to be 'good' when surrounded by goodness, not so much when presented with the challenge of an 'evil' ally.
Not because it's easy but because it's hard. This is how to be a hero.
Did you have a problem with the way he playing his character before he let it slip ooc that he we evil? Was he going against the party and being disruptive? Sure he may be greedy or try to find loopholes in a contract for his benefits, but that doesnt mean he cant be a team player or keep his word.
There are many ways to play evil and not all involve backstabbing the group or eating orphaned puppies. Not everyone likes to be the shining knight fighting injustice, some prefer a darker or more morally complex character. Im a shining knight type myself, but that doesnt mean i couldnt get along with an evil character as long as he is a team player.
If hes playing the joker style evil then ya you have a problem and should talk to him and the gm both. If he is more lex luthor try to have fun with it, a little in character party conflict can make a game more memorable.
I didn't want to trust him from the start, but I did, some I failed my sense motive against his bluff that he couldn't defend himself. I diced a 1 with an 8 total. He rolled a 32. Mix in a little "find a way for party cohesions sake" and you have my mindset.
Clearly, it's time to stab him in the eye. (in character only)
I'm just sick of always being the one who has to suck it up and give in as a player. I'm a bit of a hippie at heart, always playing the peaceful character
I have reasons to want to acquire his services. I am a vanara alchemist. He's a sorcerer with a magic shop and a soft spot for interesting items. The procuring business, its called.
And it angers me that he keeps rotating these evilesque characters. I just want a "good guys" game.
I can jive with someone wanting to try out being evil in a (mostly) good party for the RP challenge - its something I want to try some day. But, what you have described would get old with me really fast.
Alignment isnt so black and white. Ie, evil can do good acts, and good can do evil acts.
I personally am a fan of the evil character with good intentions, but will go about things in a different way. Ie, not have a problem with using torture etc to aquire information, or perhaps seeing a few people dying for the greater good as an acceptable sacrifice.
Realistically, i dont see alignment as important as just creating a rich character background. This is more important in describing why your character does something, than oh, im chaotic neutral, so i have to do this. or wouldnt do this. etc.
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So, if you just want a "good guys" game, what do you think of the LN Paladin, TN Fighter, and CN Sorcerer? None of those are Good either. Considering that the party has more Neutral characters than Good characters, it doesn't seem like anyone else is interested in your "good guys" game. And now you're upset not because of anything the player has actually done but because you're worried the player might do something in the future? And you're also venting about your dog or something?
It certainly sounds like the problem here is you, not this other player. You consider it unfair that the rest of the group is playing what they want to play instead of what you want them to play. You see other people playing the characters they want and see it as them forcing you to suck it up and give in. Maybe the problem isn't on their end.
I get it, and I'm turning around, seeing potential in it, realizing he's not there every week, that this was a popinandout style if character to accommodate his new work schedule.
I just have this knee-jerk reaction to evil. I don't trust it as a person. I can't understand an evil mindset. It takes me a long time to come up with villains, but the good and righteous are cake.
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First off, I'll be honest, I didn't read the entire thread, so if I'm reposting things here I apologize.
Nepherti, in one of your posts you said you're tired of being the one to have to give in. That statement raises all sorts of questions. Why is anyone giving in to anything? You can play your character and he can play his. Just because he is LE doesn't mean he's going to turn on the party and kill everyone. If that concerns you, speak to your DM about his/her PVP policy. I don't allow it in my game. There's plenty of things trying to kill the party already. A PC turning on the party is needless and, quite frankly, a dick move.
Were there any alignment restrictions or guidelines set before the game started? Were players told they were going to play in a good campaign, evil campaign, keep the characters within so many steps of each other, etc? If not, then this kind of thing happens. In this case, it really isn't a big deal. It may sound harsh but just because you want to play a good guy doesn't mean he has to play a good guy.
Is there going to be any kind of legitimate IC conflict arising in the future? You mentioned a paladin coming in at some point, but stated he's going to be houseruled to LN. Is the DM also going to houserule that the paladin doesn't have to make regular atonement for partying with an evil character, or is he going to let that slide?
Imo, you're letting alignment play too big a role in your perception of the characters. Just because he's playing LE doesn't necessarily mean he's going to stab you in the back once you're no longer of use. If he DOES try to stab you in the back once he's finished with you, then see my above post about it being a dick move. If you're worried about his actions coming back to bite the party in the butt, pull the DM aside and speak with him about it. If his actions were his alone, then the consequences should also be his. If the party agreed to the actions, then the party deserves what happens. If your DM punishes the whole group because one guy did something retarded then you have a poor DM.
I get that, but personally I don't like it. I enjoy being the hero. And it angers me that he keeps rotating these evilesque characters. I just want a "good guys" game. This, until this guy joined was one for the most part. I have a knot in my stomach now.
During the council of thieves AP, the iconics were: LE, LG, CG and i forget the other.
There was a lot of talk about this on the board. with one paladin, and one diametrically opposed character in the group how could a lawful evil character who worships asmodeus side with the party members in overthrowing the LE baddies and killing devils?? wouldnt he automatically be on the OTHER side?
James Jacobs had some very interesting insight and musings on it, I would read it if I were you.
Just remember, lex luthor and clark kent were once friends, batman and two face, harry osborn and spider man, mr fantastic and dr doom, magneto and prof. x all the same type of relationships. And Magneto and Prof X and doom/fantastic have willingly cooperated on multiple occasions with each other. Luthor, Doom, and Magneto are all perfect examples of Lawful Evil. Osborn and two face i'd put my vote in for CE and NE, but the other three have been quite cooperative with their arch nemesis's over the years given the right circumstances. Why do heroes need to be surrounded by other heroes?
Alignment is motivation, not actions.
an LE character could totally do heroic things, because he enjoys power, attention and control, reward, treasure, and being adored by the ladies. He kills dragons because it's a but load of treasure, he saves the princess because the reward is more well than you can imagine. His motivation is not to save the town of falcon's hollow, but to slay the invading undead to gain popularity to help him in his political campaign, win popular opinion and be voted into being the mayor....or whatever.
a Lawful evil character might loan you money to buy that holy avenger, only to demand severe penalties on not being able to pay him back, once you are unable to make your loan payment (due to the fact that he hired a local burglar to rob you blind whilst he was out adventuring with you....)
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This thread (Evil parties, how they fail and how to fix it) has a lot of good advice on including evil in your party.
For myself, I played a LE monk in an edition long ago alongside a good/neutral party that included a paladin. Some of my stories of those days are in that thread.
Just remember two things: first, Lawful Evil isn't 'back-stabby' evil. They keep their word and even if they betray you, it is more like a parting of the ways with a warning not to interfere with them in the future, instead of someone slitting their companions throats in the dead of night.
Second, he is potentially a GREAT resource. Need information, but don't want to get your hands dirty? Let the evil guy handle it . . . just don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.
MA
you know, I usually tend to play neutral characters, neutral and lawful evil are my preferred adventuring alignments with the occasional LG paladin character. I have played a LG monk/rogue once. Other than that Im 60% neutral/30% LE and 10% LG (usually because its required for the character)
seltyiel is my favorite iconic. I have as an LE character saved the entire group, healed people and paid to raise them from the dead, after all, why go through the trouble of finding new pawns to do my bidding when these ones I have are doing juuuust fine?
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We just left game, so the emotions are still fresh, so maybe in the morning I'll feel better.
He's obsessive over his contracts, but the player is smart enough to put loopholes in. I don't want to be a whiny baby, and these guys are all good friends. My real life boyfriend is even my husband in game.
leaving is not really an option.How do I get over this?
My best advice is to talk about this out of character with the group. Talk with the player, and ask how they're going to fit in with a mostly good group. Why is he/she travelling with the group - what motivates him/her? Try to find some hooks that join your characters together in the group.
The key to this is, very few people truly think themselves evil. They'll admit they screw up, they do bad things, or the circumstances force them to make unpleasant choices, but very rarely does someone actively think of themself as evil.
And different people describe evil differently. If you believe that to be good, you have to be willing to die for an innocent...how many people really will put themselves in mortal danger for a stranger? I would like to think of myself as good, but honestly, I wouldn't. I will put myself really far out for someone I care about...but most everyone will do that.
Maybe this character is evil because he's selfish. Maybe he's evil because he always requires some form of payment for helping people. Maybe he's evil because he always chooses the path of least resistance for himself, no matter the consequence for others. Understanding the player's motivations for the character will help you better decide if this is a skilled player playing an evil character with a real eye toward not disrupting the party (I seriously want to play this kind of character myself), or if they're going to make the game not fun for you.
Good luck!