So yea, I've got a whole list of questions for this one...
1) How does the agile weapon property interact with double slice? Do you get full Dex to off-hand attacks or not?
2) How does the agile weapon property interact with Two-weapon Rend? Again, do you use 1d10 + 1 and 1/2 Dex mod.
3) How does the agile Weapon property interact with secondary natural attacks? I am 'assuming' you get 1/2 Dex mod to secondary natural attacks, but I've heard it argued that (by RAW) you get full Dex to secondary natural attacks due to the way the enhancement is worded.
Now, in my opinion, I would 'assume' that questions 1 is a "yes, you can use full Dex to off-hand." However, question 2 I'm not so sure about (again, leaning towards 'yes, it uses Dex instead' but not really positive). And as for question 3...yea, I'm almost positive it is 'half Dex' to secondary weapons, but I just would like some clarification.
lol, I'm assuming for the third question you mean "no, you only get half dex mod to secondary natural weapons" correct?
1) Nope.
2) Nope. The feat uses only Str by RAW, it is not dependent of the ability you use for normal damage.
3) 1/2 Dex to damage."This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons."
If it matters to have multiple opinions, I agree with the above.
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Agilehttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-AgileThanks, but I'm clicking on it but nothing's happening!
IT LIVES!!!
Er, I mean, it worked. Many thanks!
Why wasn't this in Ultimate Equipment?
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lol, so the sub optimal combat style that eats feats like they are going out of style and requires heaps of dex cant even use agile weapons to off set..... I cant even express how unsurprising this is to me.
lol, so the sub optimal combat style that eats feats like they are going out of style and requires heaps of dex cant even use agile weapons to off set..... I cant even express how unsurprising this is to me.
The style absolutely can benefit from Agile Weapons. It just has to choose between Rend and Double Slice or dumping Strength. That's a pretty fair trade, I think.
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lol, so the sub optimal combat style that eats feats like they are going out of style and requires heaps of dex cant even use agile weapons to off set..... I cant even express how unsurprising this is to me.
Actually, after reading again, I believe Double Slice would let you apply your full Dex modifier to off-hand attacks ; but Rend would not.
Agile :
"A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier."
DS:
"Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand."
Double Slice modifies the amount of modifier you add to your damage. Agile only switches the ability modifier used to deal damage from Str to Dex, but stacking both does not go against the feat, since the Dex bonus to damage works as normal for the purposes of off-hand attacks (explicitely noted in Agile's description).
Rend, on the other hand, always uses Strength.
The answer to #1 is "YES, you do add full Dex."
Agile's off-hand damage reduction refers to the case outlined by Double Slice's "Normal:" portion:
"Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand."
The Double Slice feat overrides the normal case, thus increasing off-hand damage to full Dex.
To address the counter-argument:
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
The wording here implies either one of two things:
A) The off-hand reduction applies to the usual halving of the attribute modifier when using an off-hand weapon. Double Slice overrides this reduction.
B) The off-hand reduction is a unique rules item, and is separate from the usual halving of the attribute modifier when using an off-hand weapon. In this case, the text of agile does not actually tell us how far to reduce damage by.
Since B cannot be true, the text of agile refers to A, and thus Double Slice kicks in.
That being said, it is worth noting that this is yet another case of how examining Paizo's writing for strict RAW is the path to madness.
-Matt
First the strength bonus:
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
The wording uses the strength bonus. Not Strength bonus = a secondary bonus. Thus, anything that replaces Strength bonus applies.
Second does anything else interfere:
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. The agile weapon enhancement can only be placed on melee weapons that are usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
The first bolded section states that it does replace the Strength modifier with the Dexterity modifier. Thus, for that sentance Double Slice works.
The second bolded section states that it is reduced for off-hand weapons. Since no reduction is spelled out in the feat we have to go back to the rules for off-hand weapons. Double Slice modifies those rules. Since Double-slice is modifying the rules from 1/2damage to full damage the reduction is effectively zero.
I would say this is a possible grey area but I believe that the line of logic is sound.
Benefit: If you hit an opponent with both your primary hand and your off-hand weapon, you deal an additional 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier. You can only deal this additional damage once each round.
Two-Weapon Rend does not add the strength modifier to damage. Two-Weapon Rend adds an additional amount of damage that is based off of your strength modifier. That is one step removed. As a result, you cannot substitute other modifiers for Two-Weapon Rend.
You get full dex bonus for Natural Weapons unless they are secondary. This is not clearly spelled out but the intent is obvious. The intent is that you use the same penalties to strength modifiers that you would normally have.
However, as I stated, it is not clearly spelled out and is thus a grey area. Unless a Developer clarifies it it is up to the GM to make a ruling.
Summary:
1) Yes
2) No
3) 1/2 on secondary
- Gauss
