Hey all, had a very fun, interesting game this past weekend. Ill try and be brief setting the scene and then I would like your opinion on if you would do anything concerning the cleric.
Player - first time playing Pathfinder, but has rpg'ed before but not sure of how much and what game.
Half-Orc Cleric of Milani - CG
She was captured as a child and escaped. Does not know much about Orc "Culture" as we like to say :)
They have traveled too Urglin. She is very happy to be around some Orc's and see what that part of her heritage is about. The party does good to keep her away from slavers and such in the city. However she goes out for a date with an Orc. They goto a section of the city that has gambling, games of strength...etc Her Orc date shows her one of these games. I made the game up, its called Goblin Headball, a goblin in put into a stockade type contraption. only his head is up, his arms and legs are bound. You take a big wooden stick and you have 3 swings to knock his head off and see how far it rolls. Whoever rolls it the farthest, wins 5gold.
Yes, I was watching baseball when I came up with it :)
I was expecting her to get pissed and outraged. However, I got the opposite. She really liked it and wanted to do it. She asked about the goblins, I told her that they were criminals and such and this is there punishment. They are inherently evil creatures also. She had one placed, but unbound his legs and arms, his head was till stuck. She wacked him good and off went his head.
She was having a great time, so next they went to goblin tugwar. Basically whoever pulls the biggest piece of the goblin during the tug wins, her and her date won. They also went to an Orc concert so to speak. Basically a bunch of Orc's pounding on "drums" while everyone slammed danced. They went to dinner and back to his place for the night, so he could finish teaching her about Orc "Culture" :)
ok, now should I do anything to cleric concerning these acts. I do think it was not quite right for a good cleric to do this, however I am also not sure she really understand the aliment/cleric part. Here are my thoughts.
1 - Have the goddess speak to her in a dream concerning her actions. how she felt about them and if she is going to continue.
2 - adjust her alignment by 1 to CN - have the goddess speak to her
3 - do nothing, goblins are evil and such do not deserve any mercy
4 - have a another cleric of Milani, which she does know one. Speak with her about what happened.
The following morning when her character made it back to the Inn where the party was. One of the members ask her how her night went. Her comment, "Best night ever!" so I know the player's are having fun :)
Opinions.
Just a technical question: if I got it well (sorry, English is not my mother tongue), your cleric half-orc was a player, right? In that case, being a cleric, you as a GM couldn't you have simply forbidden her to "enjoy killing the goblins" due to her status/alignment?
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I would interpret CG to mean doing whatever is best without regards to laws. Even paladins can execute the wicked, and I'd just say this is a more "chaotic" way of doing an execution. Honestly, the player's having fun, and I'd make every reasonable attempt to continue that. As long as the other player's don't feed slighted and it doesn't get out of hand (I'm gonna go burn, pillage, and rape with my orc boyfriend!), bend the rules a bit for the benefit of the player's enjoyment.
If it is a problem, having another cleric warn her that her deity wouldn't like what she's doing would be the first step. A second step may be to have her deity refuse her access to her highest levels spells when she prays for them and prepares them, but fill all spell slots of that level with augury. A third step would be the loss of cleric powers, possibly accompanied by an alignment change. Three strikes and you're out, if you will.
- Have a non-Orc NPC who hears the story throw up in disgust.
- Have her meet a non-evil (or at least civilized) Goblin. Or better yet: a Goblin family.
I'd keep away from Divine intervention, unless the PC goes completely overboard. God = DM, in the eyes of many players.
Yes, MamorukunBe. The cleric half-orc is a player.
The way I play cleric/god relationship is kinda hands off. If she was casting a spell like Slay Living on an innocent child, then the spell would fail. However her actions where physical, so the goddess would stop that. However, she may do something such as stop granting her spells or sever the tie from cleric to god all together.
I am not trying to come down too harsh on her, since I am not sure she understands the god/cleric alignment relationship. Or, do I even say anything at all? She was experiencing her Orc part of her heritage which is brutal and violent. This is the first time she has done something like this.
Ruiken - thanks, I agree with they way you think. The player is having a great time and things are not out of hand. The other players do not really mind either. They do not know details and thats fine. We have no Paladin or other cleric.
I do like the idea of trading her highest level spell for Augury if it gets to that point. Thats a great way of saying, Hey, call your god :)
Meet a nice goblin family, that would be funny. I might have to put something in like that. :)
Well the situation difficulty is perhaps that…you're dealing with an half-orc/cleric character. It's a little like permitting the creation of a halfling/barbarian: yes, it's technically possible, but that'll surely lead to some "strange" situations, RP-speaking ^^
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A Church of Sarenrae that doubles as a orphanage for goblins.
As the Goddess of the Sun, Redemption, Honesty, and Healing, it would be fitting.
If the player decides to desecrate a church of a NG diety, and slaughter it's worshipers, and the goblin children within, he will be outside the "good" portion of his alignment.
Not all goblins are evil. A number of the APs have non-evil goblin NPCs, or goblin NPCs protected by the law. This includes a goblin who is a honorary Hellknight.
I'd just say this is a more "chaotic" way of doing an execution.
There's a difference between judiciously executing a criminal, and gleefully causing them suffering in the process. Torturing an evil creature for information that would serve the greater good is a gray area; torturing an evil creature for fun and games is a blatantly evil act, and should have in-game consequences.
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It's really up to you, but i would think most CG dieties ok with this, or at least not being anyway offended by it. The species is evil, so encouraging their destruction favors their alignment, and i would suggest a chaotic diety wold have no qualms over the method.
Though to me, killing a creature because you think its species is undesirable is the epitome of Lawful Evil. (No real world examples, please) This can't pass as a Good act. She could possibly squeeze it through as a Chaotic act, if it were a different deity.
The player had fun with this and the rest of the party don't seem to mind, so I don't see that it will improve the game to spend a lot of time lecturing her or piling mechanical difficulties on her character. If she wants to be Good, a few wide-eyed goblin brats and some brief angst and soul-searching might be fitting. If she wants to follow the orc ways and kill things, again, she might be happier with a more CN god.
Thanks all for the good opinions.
I think for now, I will let it go as it go. I am still thinking of the idea of meeting a good goblin family :)
I also like the idea of having a cleric of Calistria possible try and sway her to her side.
Fun stuff :)
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No way I would let this go. The act of killing for fun is Evil.
I really like the idea of her meeting some good goblins. Maybe she meets a friend or family member of the goblin she executed and they, not knowing the execution has taken place already, are on a quest to earn their friend a new trial, believing them to have been falsely accused. "Everyone knows that a goblin can't get a fair trial around here. " They may even be trying to hire the PCs to prove their friend is was framed.
Its not all that important wether or not the goblin in question was guilty or not - but plant the question and make sure the cleric gets the idea that its at least possible the he was innocent, and have her deal with the friends or family member calling her a monster.
I agree that at this level you should stay away from deity contact. But a higher level cleric of the same church might hear about the activities and at least give the PC a talking to, or even warning. I might also let the PC go a few days with no answer when she prayed for spells and at least get her to repent informally but not actually have to formally atone.
You have brought up, several times, that you are not sure if the player understands the whole alignment thing in Pathfinder. Have a conversation, make sure the player understands, and then ask THE PLAYER how she wants to proceed.
My two cents:
"She asked about the goblins, I told her that they were criminals and such and this is there punishment. "
It sounds like this was a key part to the player's decision. If the goblins were war prisoners or just randomly captured somewhere, killing them while they are helpless is pretty evil. However, if these goblins were sentenced to death and this is the accepted method of execution, barbaric as it is, then she is no more "evil" than the hangman or the axman. (No one cares if the hangman enjoys his job as long as he doesn't start moonlighting.)
As a player, if the DM tells me "these goblins are criminals", I take that as fact. The goblins are not "innocent", and I can assume my good-aligned deity won't take me to task for killing them.
On the other hand, if the DM tells me "these goblins were convicted of a crime, but the courts in this area are notoriously prejudiced", then I would have to pause.
I would probably find some way of hinting to the character that she's on a dangerous path, and getting enjoyment from other creatures' pain is pretty damn evil. And probably addicting...
Lots of fun opportunities for role playing here.
Thank, some very good points and suggestions.
I did tell her, they were criminals and this is there execution. They are in Urglin, so a trail may not even be needed.
However, I also want to watch how I play my side. As the DM what I say, players take as fact. Good point Gwen. I want to make sure I did not, not give enough information or RP it enough to where the player has more knowledge. I did not mention the courts and such or how the goblin conviction took place. So I do not want to dictate things to the player when it was me not making things clear :)
I will however, take a lot of what everyone has said and next time she goes down there make things little clearer. Also toying with the idea of meeting a goblin family, maybe one that is set to die or has been. Bringing in a cleric from another god...etc
thanks, Ill post again in the other section on what happens :)
I know the character is not a Paladin but ask yourself this question. If Paladin had done the same acts would he have fallen (Code violations not taken into account). If the answer is yes then there is a problem. Miliani as a Good deity not a neutral or evil one.
Milani is the patron of all those who fight against oppression and unjust rule. She does not care about the law so the fact they are criminals would not be important.
I am going to avoid the whole argument that goblins are inherently evil and just state that even a evil opponent deserves some mercy. While beheading a evil criminal is not an evil act, using a stick to beat their head off is over the line.
There should be some effect to the players actions. I would not necessarily strip her of all powers but her deity is not going to look the other way. A good message may be that the next time she memorizes spells all she gets is healing spells no matter what she was trying to memorize. One day of this should send the proper message if not then she may need to find another deity.
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She might be courted to change her allegiance by another deity who favours her actions more.
Calistria, for example, probably thinks it's hilarious. Gorum surely has his eye-slit on the region and might want to bring her back to the more fitting worship of her ancestors.
I think this might be the best response.
"Look I know Milani is not cool with things like chopping heads off of bound goblins but Gorum is all for that. How about we get you to split a few more helpless goblin heads and then pray for Gorum to grant you favor?"
It does two things. 1) Lets her know that her religion views her actions with disfavor. 2) Other religions view it more favorably. She can stop her orc loving ways and stick with MIlani or keep loving dem orcs and go for Gorum.
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Just a technical question: if I got it well (sorry, English is not my mother tongue), your cleric half-orc was a player, right? In that case, being a cleric, you as a GM couldn't you have simply forbidden her to "enjoy killing the goblins" due to her status/alignment?
It is considered improper to tell a player what her character can or cannot do. You can warn them but if they decide to act anyway then they suffer the repercussions of their actions.
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Its very conceivable, and even likely that the PCs incorrectly accept what they have heard from NPCs as fact, when it is not. Who told them the Goblins were guilty and sentenced to death? I know that you, the DM did. But that news would have come from some NPC voice. Was it the tavern keeper? A city official? The high King? The orc she on a date with? Information should be at least unconsciously tagged with a reliability factor. And NPCs will lie to the characters to get what they want, even if its just a night out clubbing innocent goblins. :)
LOL@scorn, clubbing innocent goblins. :)
She got the information from her date, so yes he was just saying whatever he could to get her to have a good time.
I am going to go with your your idea Karkon and others. A priest of Gorum or Calistra will be introduced and will mention they heard about her fun. This fits in what is currently going on with the party. He will mention about there god. Not sure how I will phrase it yet. If she does not change and continues, then the spell idea is cool.
Also I thought of having a little goblin family, mom and 2 little goblins begging on the side of the street. As the party passes, they ask for food or coin since there Pappa was executed they have no one....snot rolling down the faces of the little ones...
hehe,
:)