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I've been looking at the Mammoth Rider Prestige Class from Paths of Prestige, and it seems pretty cool for a campaign where you'll be outside a lot. I was thinking about building one, but it occurs to me that it seems to have quite a few ways to lead up to it.
Druid (most archetypes, with Animal Companion), Cavalier (Almost all archetypes), Mounted Fury Barbarian, Ranger (most archetypes, with Animal Companion), or even Paladin (with Mount Divine Bond) or Cleric (with the Animal Domain) can qualify (though in some cases you'd probably want Boon Companion). The Prestige Class only requires BAB and effective druid level for companion to be 6, but it has two 9-rank skill requirements, so whatever class(es) you do beforehand you'll be spending quite some time in. So, which class/archetype or combination of class levels do all of you think is best suited for a future Mammoth Rider, or what's best for different goals? It seems at the very least that you can focus on either Martial or Magical, and either could have some benefits.
Mounted Fury Barbarian on a very large, very Angry Mammoth seems thematically appropriate to me.
If you can get it home ruled, 3 feats and 13 charisma may net anyone a animal companion.
Skill Focus (Knowledge Nature)
Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)
Boon Companion
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It might be a bad idea though.
Need to be level 7 for it, and the animal would be one hit die behind.
Just a thought. (I just imagined a bard buffing in combat on top of a triceratops.)
Ah, I missed the Sylvan Bloodline Sorceror! So there is an arcane magic possibility! I was wondering. The Mammoth Rider gets a +2 on will saves versus divine and/or arcane magic, but not if it has any levels in classes that give it spellcasting of that type.
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However, going the Eldritch heritage route should circumvent that
it would indeed. Still, I doubt that path is optimal (or the sorceror at all really, though I guess it could be built functionally).
But yeah, having established the many possible routes one could take to get there, does anyone have opinions on which ones might be optimal? I like the Barbarian and Druid flavor-wise, but what kind of benefits could be derived from the other classes? Are there any Archetypes that are particularly well-suited?
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Listen to me very carefully. If you take 10 levels of Mounted Fury barbarian, you will have the best mammoth, no questions asked.
You take the Greater Ferocious Mount rage power. Now your mount gets all your passive rage powers when you rage. So you take Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, and Greater Beast Totem.
Now, when you rage, your Huge sized mammoth gets +4 Str, +4 Con, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, +3 natural armor, and grows a pair of claws that deal 3d6 points of damage for a Huge sized creature and have a x3 critical modifier.
Oh, and he gets pounce too. Just saying.
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Add supertitious and you will have AM MAMMOTH RIDER.
Unfortunately, you only get 5 rage powers by level 10.
Ferocious Mount
Lesser Beast Totem
Beast Totem
Greater Ferocious Mount
Beast Totem, Greater
If you can spare a feat for Extra Rage Power, you can get Superstitious, but Mounted Combat is a notoriously feat-intensive build.
What are the quickest paths to the class is what I want to know.
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What are the quickest paths to the class is what I want to know.
There is absolutely no way to circumvent or speed up skill rank prerequisites. You are stuck in your base class until level 9, period. It makes sense, since some animal companions don't even get to be Large until level 7. Level 10 as the minimum for a Huge mount is logical.
I am well-aware of that. I meant to ask what is the quickest way for a Barbarian (of that one riding archetype, probably) to qualify for this class.
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I am well-aware of that. I meant to ask what is the quickest way for a Barbarian (of that one riding archetype, probably) to qualify for this class.
Ah. Well, it's not too difficult. As long as you have at least 8 Intelligence, you will have enough skill points to get in by level 9. (Max ranks in Ride and Handle Animal, at least 5 in Survival).
Take the Mounted Fury archetype, which gives you a horse as an animal companion. (The horse also gets +2 Strength while you rage. It's a morale bonus, so by RAW it doesn't stack with Ferocious Mount, but your DM might look past that. I would).
Then you take Boon Companion, so your horse is treated as a level 9 animal companion for all purposes at barbarian level 9.
Then you take one more level of barbarian, because getting Pounce at level 10 is much better than getting it at level 20.
So Barbarian 10/Mammoth Rider 10.
Technically you could do Barbarian 9/Mammoth Rider 10 if you really just want to get in as quickly as possible.
Alright, thanks. Now I'd just need to have a look at some Adventure Paths were the mount could actually fit inside the dungeons or one that doesn't have too many tight spaces.
Either a mounted fury barbarian or a druid qualifies easily by level 9 unless you get 2 or fewer skill points per level (you need a total of 23 skill ranks to qualify for mammoth rider); the lower BAB and companion level requirements balance out I believe. That said if you want the awesomest mammoth you probably want Boon Companion for the barbarian.
Interesting note, you do not have to ride an actual mammoth; you also have a choice of such things as a Triceratops, a Giant-horned moose (Megaloceros), a Rhino, a Lion or Tiger, or a Wolf that would put a Worg to shame. The Mammoth is definitely one of the better if not the best choice though, unless my reading is way off.
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Add supertitious and you will have AM MAMMOTH RIDER.
I just checked, the Superstition rage power wouldn't stack with the Mistrust of Magic class feature the Mammoth Rider has anyway (though it would give it to the mammoth in a rage, and applies to spell-like and supernatural abilities, unlike Mistrust of Magic). You can take the Superstitious archetype alontside Mounted Fury, though - Trap Sense is probably not that useful for a mounted fighter, and I think the initiative bonus and darkvision 60 might be useful?
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So a Mammoth Rider isn't stuck with a Mammoth as a mount. That being said get a huge lion... then pounce everything *insert evil laugh*!
Getting a huge lion isn't as powerful as getting a huge mammoth. The mammoth gets a gore attack and a slam attack. The Greater Ferocious Mount rage power gives it two claws and pounce.
So you have a huge lion with claw, claw, bite, and rake. Or you have a huge mammoth with gore, slam, claw, and claw. The two claws each have a base damage of 3d6/x3, while the lion's claws have 1d8/x2.
The problem here is that if you get a mammoth, your levels of barbarian improve it immensely, while if you get a lion, your levels of barbarian improve its claws by a bit (rather than giving it all new natural attacks) and give it pounce that it already has.
The mammoth's Strength score is 1 point higher than the lion's, which will generally result in a +1 greater Str bonus than the lion's. Also, the mammoth has trample.
So...I think it's clear which of these choices is superior.
Lion-
Str (Level 20)- 37 (43 while raging)
+6 Natural Armor (+9 while raging)
2 Claws- 1d8 (3d6 while raging)
Bite- 2d6
Rake- 1d8 (Even if you rage, this doesn't improve by RAW)
Pounce
Grab
Mammoth-
Str (Level 20)- 38 (44 while raging)
+10 Natural Armor (+13 while raging)
2 Claws- 3d6 (Only while raging)
Gore- 3d6
Slam- 2d6
Trample- 3d6
Pounce
Yeah, I looked at most of them and the Mammoth is pretty damn good. The lion would be better in cases of using a base class that doesn't boost the mount as much, maybe.
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Yeah, I looked at most of them and the Mammoth is pretty damn good. The lion would be better in cases of using a base class that doesn't boost the mount as much, maybe.
Yeah, but if you don't go Barbarian I think the best option would be Lion. But if you do have those lvls of Barbarian that Mammoth looks pretty good.
Yeah, but why wouldn't you go barbarian?
9 levels of druid gets you:
+6 BAB
9 levels of casting from a mediocre list
Wild Shape (which you can't use while you're mounted)
9d8 hit dice
Immunity to Poison
You do not gain proficiency with the lance, or any other weapon you would want to use really.
9 levels of cavalier gets you:
+9 BAB
4 uses of Challenge per day (Doesn't scale with Mammoth Rider levels)
+2 to hit on mounted charge attacks
Banner- +3 morale bonus on saves against fear and +2 morale bonus on attacks made as part of a charge.
Tactician 3 times per day
1 bonus feat, one bonus tactician feat
9d10 hit dice
9 levels of paladin gets you:
+9 BAB
3+bonus spells per day, CL 6, from a terrible list
Lay on Hands 4+Cha mod times per day
Divine Grace
Smite Evil 3/day
3 Mercies
9d10 hit dice
Basically, 9 levels of paladin gets you an alignment restriction and Charisma dependency, which your Mammoth Rider class neither needs nor rewards.
9 levels of ranger gets you:
+9 BAB
2 Favored Terrains
2 Favored Enemies
3+Bonus spells per day, CL 6, from a decent list
2 bonus feats
Evasion
9d10 hit dice
9 levels of cleric or oracle get you +6 BAB, 9d8 hit dice, and casting from a really good spell list that you have to sacrifice in order to go full melee.
But most importantly, without the right deity, a cleric does not gain proficiency with a lance, and an oracle doesn't gain proficiency with the lance period.
Then we get to barbarian
10 levels of barbarian gets you:
+10 BAB
10d12 hit dice
22+Con rounds of rage per day
Ferocious Mount/Bestial Mount- While you are raging, your mount gets a +6 morale bonus to Strength and a +4 morale bonus to Constitution (+6 if you have the Raging Vitality feat), as well as a +2 morale bonus to Will saves.
Greater Ferocious Mount- While you are raging, your mount gains all the benefits of your rage powers that do not require an action to activate.
Lesser Beast Totem- You (and your mount) get a pair of claws while you rage, dealing 1d8 points of damage each with a critical modifier of x3.
Beast Totem- You (and your mount) get +3 natural armor while you rage.
Greater Beast Totem- You (and your mount) get pounce while you rage, allowing you to choose a mount based on power that was designed to match the power a lion wields without being able to pounce, while giving your mount pounce.
To sum it up, the barbarian not only gives you a bunch of stuff that will help you throughout your career even if you leave the class (which you're going to do), it also boosts your mount (ie, the reason you're taking Mammoth Rider to begin with?) and allows you to actually choose a mount based on its power or its flavor instead of making Big Cat the best automatically due to it having pounce while no one else does.
So, yeah, if you want to ride a mammoth, you should really just play a barbarian mammoth rider. This is the Titan Mauler done right.
Not that I'm trying to play devil's advocate or that I'm saying Druid is best or anything, but...
Wild Shape (which you can't use while you're mounted)
Huh? I do not recall reading that rule anywhere. Methinks that an angry monkey riding a mammoth sounds like a pretty tasty idea.
Also, the Druid list does include a pretty awesome spell: Animal Growth. That coupled with Improved Natural Attack, Strong Jaw and the Vital Strike line of feats is pretty spiffy. (3d6 > 4d6 > 5d6 > 7d6 > 14d6)
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If you want you and your mount to Rage you only have 11+(.5*Con). Also, if you want to do something else besides smash stuff you really cant. Alternatively you could go Oracle of Nature and have a bunch of spells/revelations/curse abilities, that make you more effective when your mount cant fit into the area you have to go or you face a challenge thats not about smashing things. But I mean if you want to be a one trick pony riding a Mammoth by all means be a Barbarian.
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If you want you and your mount to Rage you only have 11+(.5*Con). Also, if you want to do something else besides smash stuff you really cant. Alternatively you could go Oracle of Nature and have a bunch of spells/revelations/curse abilities, that make you more effective when your mount cant fit into the area you have to go or you face a challenge thats not about smashing things. But I mean if you want to be a one trick pony riding a Mammoth by all means be a Barbarian.
Exactly. If you want to be the most powerful, mightiest warrior riding the strongest mount you possibly can, there's really not a better choice than barbarian.
I was somewhat curious as to whether there might be some archetypes that would work better with mammoth rider than the base Cavalier/Druid/Ranger/Paladin, but you make a very good case for the Mounted Fury. Also the idea of sitting on a huge mount and firing arrows while the mount charges and mauls things is interesting, if not remotely optimal.
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I was somewhat curious as to whether there might be some archetypes that would work better with mammoth rider than the base Cavalier/Druid/Ranger/Paladin, but you make a very good case for the Mounted Fury. Also the idea of sitting on a huge mount and firing arrows while the mount charges and mauls things is interesting, if not remotely optimal.
Yeah. It makes me sad that they decided not to allow rocs to be part of the animals you could make your steed. After all, the roc is Gargantuan normally, giving us the option to make it Huge would get us one step closer to realizing our dream of true roc animal companions.
Mounted Fury is great, though. In my opinion, it's the most thematically flavor-appropriate, the most powerful, and it gives you the most synergy between mount and rider.
As a last aside, let me point out that taking Mounted Fury gives your steed +10' movement speed. Every little buff counts.
Reminds me of the Oliphant riders of LotR fame.
However, going the Eldritch heritage route should circumvent that
Actually, I don't think it would.
The Animal Companion from Sylvan bloodline counts as its Bloodline Arcana, even if it also replaces Laughing Touch, and Eldritch Heritage only gives you Bloodline Powers, not Arcanas.
I was thinking that the Cavalier option that adds your mounts strength to your charging damage rolls might have been worthwhile for this PRC :)
Since you're saying you'd stick with Barbarian until level 10, I think it's only fair to compare the other classes to that level. I'm curious as to why a Horse Lord Ranger wouldn't be a good choice as well, taking that into account. If you're going to stick in something until level 10 anyway, you could take Mounted Skirmisher for your 10th level ranger feat and be able to full attack as long as you moved it's speed or less. You could also (possibly) have access to a third-level spell, or forgo the spells in favor of the Skirmisher ability, as well as get a third Favored Enemy. Perhaps not evening the score, but at least making it less disparate.
Also, another question: What would be the best way to arrange the ability scores for such a build? I know it would depend greatly on the particulars of the class, but it seems like a Ranger/Mammoth Rider would do pretty well at making an agile, you-can't-hit-me sort with a lot of versatility, since you get free access to things like Trick Riding, while a Barbarian/Mammoth Rider would be better at the brute force of it.
Of course, I suppose that should be enough to make the decision for you. If you're heading for Mammoth Rider, why the heck wouldn't you want to be a damage beast?
And one last question if I may...I'm probably being terribly dense, but how does the claw damage go to 3d6 while raging? Due to size increases? Or what?
Okay barbarian add some str, con, rage powers to the mount. But what does the barbarian do? Rage and make a few natural attacks while mounted...
OR spend all his feats to go down the sprited Charge line.
Druid, Cleric, Oracle - cast spells. Do not underestimate that. A nature oracle buffs saves with his CHA, and can buff the party + mount. make battlefield control all while the mount go around killing things.
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Personally I might rather do a little less damage and be more versatile.
I've got another question about the Mammoth Rider. If you were to choose an animal companion like a rhino or arsinoitherium, with the Powerful Charge ability, does the damage from that upgrade when your base damage increases, too?
For example, arsinoitherium goes from 1d8 gore to 2d8 gore + 2d8 powerful charge when it goes from medium to large at level 7. If you choose that for your animal companion upon entering Mammoth Rider, and your base damage goes from 2d8 to 4d6, does your powerful charge damage get an upgrade, too?
Dotting.
And another question for those of you who can help:
Do the strength and dexterity bonuses from Druid animal companion level-ups stack with the strength and con bonuses from Mammoth Rider?
Example: Does a Druid 9/Mammoth Rider 3's animal companion get +4 STR/+4 DEX for being an equivalent-level 12 Druid companion, and +4 STR/+2 CON from level 3 Mammoth Rider, for a total of +8 STR / +4 DEX / +2 CON?
Still hoping to get an answer on the previous question about the damage increase from Gigantic Steed and Powerful Charge, too. Thanks guys!
The stack - the mammoth rider bonus us a size bonus the druid is untyped.
But mammoths bonus doesn't stack with animal growth.
Vanara Barbarian/Mammoth Rider sounds fun...
Battle Oracle could get a Lance.
Fighter could possibly work. IIRC there is a Archetype that gives you a Mount.
I've got another question about the Mammoth Rider. If you were to choose an animal companion like a rhino or arsinoitherium, with the Powerful Charge ability, does the damage from that upgrade when your base damage increases, too?
For example, arsinoitherium goes from 1d8 gore to 2d8 gore + 2d8 powerful charge when it goes from medium to large at level 7. If you choose that for your animal companion upon entering Mammoth Rider, and your base damage goes from 2d8 to 4d6, does your powerful charge damage get an upgrade, too?
IMO RAW could be taken anywhere on this.
The only meaningful solution as I see it, is to bump the damage on powerful charges on step from the creature normal damage (including buffs at the moment).
A powerful charge dealing only a fraction of the damage the creature otherwise would have dealt is not really powerful...
This prestige class would almost certainly want the Hosteling effect added to his armor as well to store his mount when he went into dungeons or towns.
By RAW, this wouldn't work. The Hosteling special ability only allows you to store an animal companion that is one size category larger than you are. The first level of Mammoth Rider makes your companion Huge size, which means that you can't store it without increasing your own size at least one level.
Definitely something that I would just hand-wave if I were DMing it, though.
What about a Hosteling Titanic Armour?