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Okay barbarian add some str, con, rage powers to the mount. But what does the barbarian do? Rage and make a few natural attacks while mounted...
OR spend all his feats to go down the sprited Charge line.Druid, Cleric, Oracle - cast spells. Do not underestimate that. A nature oracle buffs saves with his CHA, and can buff the party + mount. make battlefield control all while the mount go around killing things.
I'm sorry, but I'm definitely going to underestimate this.
Clerics and oracles do not get Ride as a class skill, and they only get 2+Int skill points per level, which means that you either have to have 12 Int to qualify by level 9/10 (Good luck with that), or you have to be human and have 10 Int. A barbarian can dump his Int safely, which the mammoth rider and every base class that qualifies for it don't need, and still qualify.
As for the druid, I have seen the druid's spell list and I am very unimpressed. I will say no more. In my opinion, the only spell lists that are really powerful at 9th level are the cleric spell list and the wizard spell list. You can argue this with me, many others have, but it is my long-standing opinion that the druid spell list is terrible.
Edit: Every group needs a frontline fighter. If you're going to be a mammoth rider, you are the frontline fighter. Getting spells and class features that do not help you in combat to be "more versatile" and "help the party" is only going to hurt the party.
If you take the role of frontline fighter, someone else is going to be the caster. If not, then you won't have a caster and your DM has to understand that. But in a typical game, the frontline fighter is not expected to contribute anything other than damage and tanking. And if you go into that as a cleric or a druid, you are hurting your party by not contributing enough to your primary role.
You will not have enough hit points, and you will not be able to deal as much damage as a frontline fighter is supposed to. A cleric who optimizes can put out about as much damage as an average fighter while contributing spells to the party, while an optimized barbarian can put out far more with enough hit points to back it up.
A battle oracle or a battle cleric is a backup fighter, it's not the frontline fighter. Here is the difference in power:
By taking a class that has casting, you require yourself to spend precious ability score points on something that will not protect you or aid you in combat without actually using a spell slot (and a standard action). You will also require yourself to have a higher Intelligence score by taking a class without enough base skill points.
So: Cleric/oracle-
Assuming you want enough points to be able to cast your highest level spells at 10th level, you will need a 15 in Wis/Cha, or a 13 and then you take away your Strength bonuses at 4th and 8th level. You will also need a 12 in Intelligence, or to delay your entry to the class until 11th level which will prevent you from finishing it (with a 10 Int. Any lower and you won't be able to make it at all, because it requires 23 skill points to enter).
This amounts to 5-9 wasted points. So here's your spread, assuming a 20 point buy:
Str 14 (5 points)
Dex 12 (2 points)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 12 (2 points)
Wis/Cha (casting score) 15 (7 points)
Wis/Cha (non-casting score) 9 (+1 point)
There you go. That's a decent spread. You can try to push your Strength score up to 16 if you want, but it's going to take some moving around and will inevitably end with a lower Dex/Con, which will, again, hurt your party by weakening you as a frontline fighter.
Now, here's the barbarian. The barbarian has no need for Int, Wis, or Cha. He doesn't need to be human. And he knows damn well what his role is:
20 point buy:
Str 18 (17 points)
Dex 12 (2 points)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 10 (0 points)
Wis 8 (+2 points)
Cha 8 (+2 points)
I am basing this off of my previous DMs, who have all refused to allow me to take lower than an 8 in point buys because they feel dumping a score to 7 is unfair. However, if you want the strictly RAW system, you can get your Con even higher as a barbarian, and you can get your Strength higher as a caster, so it's an even trade.
More importantly, since you're not a caster, you can afford to be an orc as a barbarian. So your adjusted stats as an orc are:
Str 22
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 6
Cha 6
There you go. At 12th level, the orc mammoth rider barbarian will have at least 25 base Strength (let's be logical and say he got a +2 gloves of giant Strength along the way, for a total of 27 Str).
He's got 31 Strength while raging. He's got pounce. When his mount charges, he deals 3d8+57 per attack with +2 lance and Spirited Charge/Power Attack (1d8+15 Str, +12 Power Attack, +2 lance, tripled).
More importantly, however, he will have a caster ally who aids him with crowd control and with buffs. You guys act like you can't rely on the TEAM to do that for you. So, the best part of Mammoth Rider? You have a huge mount, which means you can be Large when you're riding it.
So here's the orc barbarian under the effects of his wizard ally's enlarge person and charging:
6d6+60 (2d6+16 Str, +12 Power Attack, +2 lance, tripled). He has three attacks per charge. And more importantly, his mammoth has bonus claws, bonus Strength, and pounce.
Yes, if you are a caster, you will contribute more to the party. But you can't be the frontline fighter if you are a caster. You need hit points, you need armor, you need BAB, and you need damage.
Since you're saying you'd stick with Barbarian until level 10, I think it's only fair to compare the other classes to that level. I'm curious as to why a Horse Lord Ranger wouldn't be a good choice as well, taking that into account. If you're going to stick in something until level 10 anyway, you could take Mounted Skirmisher for your 10th level ranger feat and be able to full attack as long as you moved it's speed or less. You could also (possibly) have access to a third-level spell, or forgo the spells in favor of the Skirmisher ability, as well as get a third Favored Enemy. Perhaps not evening the score, but at least making it less disparate.
You make a solid argument. I had forgotten about a ranger's early access to the Mounted Skirmisher feat. However, a mammoth rider barbarian has pounce while he rages, so he gets the Mounted Skirmisher feat for free (and gives it to his mount). If it's an issue, the barbarian can take the feat at level 15 anyway, and at that point, you might see the differences even further. The ranger gave up super-charging his mount in order to buff his own skills in combat (and he doesn't have nearly as high a Strength score as the raging barbarian, so he loses out on that damage on pounces).
How's that?
Even though the Barbarian-Version sounds pretty neat - I wish I could get some levels of barb in that build, guess I wont have the feats:/
How's that?
Even though the Barbarian-Version sounds pretty neat - I wish I could get some levels of barb in that build, guess I wont have the feats:/
You have the wrong hit dice, my friend. Mammoth Riders get d12s. :) Should be 10d10+10d12. Enjoy the extra hit points.
Uh yea, thanks - that helps a lot actually!
You make a solid argument. I had forgotten about a ranger's early access to the Mounted Skirmisher feat. However, a mammoth rider barbarian has pounce while he rages, so he gets the Mounted Skirmisher feat for free (and gives it to his mount). If it's an issue, the barbarian can take the feat at level 15 anyway, and at that point, you might see the differences even further. The ranger gave up super-charging his mount in order to buff his own skills in combat (and he doesn't have nearly as high a Strength score as the raging barbarian, so he loses out on that damage on pounces).
Good point there; using the rage to give yourself and your mount Pounce would effectively do the same thing as taking Mounted Skirmisher, and free up the feat slot for something more important.
I suppose my next question would be which feats would a build like this most benefit from? The Spirited Charge line is clearly a good choice, as is Power Attack. Those would eat up four of your feats. If you assume that Orc isn't available as a race to choose from, since it isn't a typically-allowed player race by my experience, you'd probably wanna go with Human or Half-Orc.
Going with Human would mean you'd have six feats by the time you reached level 10. Extra Rage would give you an extra three rounds of you + your mount going to town. Trick Riding would let you negate double the hits on your mount as well as remove the need to make some of the Ride checks you'd normally have to make. Critical Focus would make confirming a lance threat that much more likely. What other good feat options are available?
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Uh yea, thanks - that helps a lot actually!
My pleasure.
I suppose my next question would be which feats would a build like this most benefit from?
The Raging Vitality feat is very important, as it gives you (and your mount) an additional +2 Constitution while you rage, and also stops you from raging (and dying due to loss of hit points) if you go unconscious.
If you want, you can go with Improved Overrun and Trample for huge amounts of fun (pun intended), though if you get a Mammoth, then it will have the Trample ability already.
Other than that, you covered all the feats that are important, and this build doesn't get that many. Boon Companion, though, obviously a big one.
Oh! Right! Boon Companion. I knew that there was one I was forgetting. Be a lot later on getting into Mammoth Rider otherwise.
So that means Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Raging Vitality, and Boon Companion. Pretty much finishes it.
"Every group needs a frontline fighter. If you're going to be a mammoth rider, you are the frontline fighter. Getting spells and class features that do not help you in combat to be "more versatile" and "help the party" is only going to hurt the party."
I would argue that the mount is the fronline fighter. And if you are a elf or aasimar you get 1.5x better mount than a barbarian.
But barbarian could be fun an effecient too. Extra rage power - you'll want that - passive rage feats - so you mount get them as well.
I would argue that the mount is the fronline fighter. And if you are a elf or aasimar you get 1.5x better mount than a barbarian.
The Aasimar even more so, as suddenly the animal companion is a magical beast.
"Every group needs a frontline fighter. If you're going to be a mammoth rider, you are the frontline fighter. Getting spells and class features that do not help you in combat to be "more versatile" and "help the party" is only going to hurt the party."
I would argue that the mount is the fronline fighter. And if you are a elf or aasimar you get 1.5x better mount than a barbarian.
But barbarian could be fun an effecient too. Extra rage power - you'll want that - passive rage feats - so you mount get them as well.
Sorry if I missed it somewhere in the thread, but what can you do with Elf and Aasimar?
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I would argue that the mount is the fronline fighter. And if you are a elf or aasimar you get 1.5x better mount than a barbarian.But barbarian could be fun an effecient too. Extra rage power - you'll want that - passive rage feats - so you mount get them as well.
And I would disagree intensely, as the mount cannot deal alternate forms of damage (if it has slams and claws, it can't deal piercing damage, if it has claws and a bite, it can't deal bludgeoning damage), it's really expensive to enchant its attacks in order to overcome damage reduction, plus the mount can't hit flying enemies unless it has a spell cast on it while you can just get wings of flying (or a bow) for yourself.
The mount is powerful, but a frontline fighter has to be able to deal with every type of enemy other than ones who have to be defeated by magic. Not to mention the mount's hit points are going to be pretty low since it has to take the average of all its d8 racial hit dice.
Listen to me very carefully. If you take 10 levels of Mounted Fury barbarian, you will have the best mammoth, no questions asked.
You take the Greater Ferocious Mount rage power. Now your mount gets all your passive rage powers when you rage. So you take Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, and Greater Beast Totem.
Now, when you rage, your Huge sized mammoth gets +4 Str, +4 Con, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, +3 natural armor, and grows a pair of claws that deal 3d6 points of damage for a Huge sized creature and have a x3 critical modifier.
Oh, and he gets pounce too. Just saying.
RAGELANCEMAMMOTHCLAWPOUNCE!
I think that the two combinations that work the best for mammoth rider are:
9 levels of barbarian: Rage, rage powers, mount gets all these goodies at 2 rage rounds / combat round. Probably the best choice for this combo is a mammoth.
9 levels of Nature Oracle as an Aasimar: Your a freaking spell caster with all kinds of buffs to pass on to your mount (quicken divine favor your mount), Aasimar can make mount celestial, Aasimar (or elf) can add 1/2 lvl / lvl to mount lvl (@ 9 lvls of Oracle + 1 mammoth rider you have a lvl 14 animal companion). Probably your best choice is a tiger.
Most people have considered the barbarian to be the best route. However, I think that the nature oracle can give the barbarian a run for their money with a combination of increased level progression and spell bumps. When you take into consideration the increased out of combat utility of the oracle, I actually prefer the oracle route.
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I think that the two combinations that work the best for mammoth rider are:
9 levels of barbarian: Rage, rage powers, mount gets all these goodies at 2 rage rounds / combat round. Probably the best choice for this combo is a mammoth.
9 levels of Nature Oracle as an Aasimar: Your a freaking spell caster with all kinds of buffs to pass on to your mount (quicken divine favor your mount), Aasimar can make mount celestial, Aasimar (or elf) can add 1/2 lvl / lvl to mount lvl (@ 9 lvls of Oracle + 1 mammoth rider you have a lvl 14 animal companion). Probably your best choice is a tiger.
Most people have considered the barbarian to be the best route. However, I think that the nature oracle can give the barbarian a run for their money with a combination of increased level progression and spell bumps. When you take into consideration the increased out of combat utility of the oracle, I actually prefer the oracle route.
As I pointed out before, taking an oracle is going to make your ability scores terrible. With a 20 point buy, exactly how high would you be able to make your Str/Con? Or are you just planning to let your mount do all the fighting while you...sit back and do nothing?
And the aasimar is actually a worse option. Changing your steed to a magical beast prevents it from being affected by the animal growth spell by the party druid/scroll from the rogue. What exactly do you get from changing it to a magical beast? Full BAB (about the equivalent of +6 to Strength from a raging barbarian, except without the damage boost) and one extra hit point per level? (not as good as a rage)
Would I let the mount do the damage for me? Yes!
It will get my Cha to saves, my buff spells, I can spend my immidiate actions making ride checks so it doesn't get hit. My 6 int mount is smarter than the barbarians, and as for " has to be able to deal with every type of enemy other than ones who have to be defeated by magi" - the oracle mount has utility spells that can MAKE the mount deal with more things than a barbarian mount that can do one thing - pounce and deal damage...
But again that depends on your playing style - if you hate encounters where you don't feel you can contribute much - oracles it what you want due to their utility.
But if you want raw damage, plenty of dice roling and let the casters figure out what to do if things get complicated - then go for a barbarian - with plenty of natural attacks.
Diffent kinds of play -
I'm not about to start doing numbers - I don't have the time for that at the moment (maybe after friday)...
And once you add a caster to the mix - well in a light encounter perhaps all the oracle is doing is to cast bless - to save spells - the mount should do fine with just it's morning buffs. So his damage is changing from encounter to encounter - and does the barbarian have a divine or arcane friend, that thinks it's great to buff?
Actually - did the OP mention what the rest of the party is playing?
As I pointed out before, taking an oracle is going to make your ability scores terrible. With a 20 point buy, exactly how high would you be able to make your Str/Con? Or are you just planning to let your mount do all the fighting while you...sit back and do nothing?And the aasimar is actually a worse option. Changing your steed to a magical beast prevents it from being affected by the animal growth spell by the party druid/scroll from the rogue. What exactly do you get from changing it to a magical beast? Full BAB (about the equivalent of +6 to Strength from a raging barbarian, except without the damage boost) and one extra hit point per level? (not as good as a rage)
I think an Oracle would probably focus on spell casting. That is the absolute best option. You are a full blown spell caster by the way. On your turn throw out a nasty spell and then let your animal companion tear it up. Just off the top of my head...greater forbid action (attack). Lets see a barbarian reduce an encounter to nothing like that. If I didn't want to show off I could just buff my animal companion with all the nasty self only spells (Bull Str + Quicken Divine Favor = +5 to hit / dmg @ lvl 11 of my build).
As far as the whole magical beast vs animal myth. You need to reread the Celestial Servant feat. While your animal companion gains the Celestial template and becomes a magical beast you can treat them as an animal. So I get Darkvision, DR 10/evil, resist cold acid electricity 15, and 1/day smite with a +13 to damage until the BBEG is dead as a door nail. That is in addition to any BAB / HD I gain from being a magical beast (unsure that you get these things). That is nothing but win. Show me another feat that gives you that kind of return.
So....animal growth away! Oh and if you use this in PFS you get animal growth as a spell instead of awaken so there is no need for a druid companion or scroll.
I will take the oracle any day and CASTSMITEPOUNCE my way to glory.
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So I was thinking an Aasimar or Elf Oracle of Nature 8/Mammoth Rider 1, would be pretty sweet. Make sure you put all your favored class bonuses into Oracle and now you have a 13lvl animal companion. With a big cat with a Int 6 you are going to have a lot of options.
Str: 21+4 (Str Bump)+2 (Mammoth Rider)+1 (Ability Score Increase)+2 (Belt)=30, Dex: 15+4 (Dex Bump)-2 (Mammoth Rider)=17, Con: 17+1 (Ability Score Increase)+2 (Mammoth Rider)=20, Int: 6, Wis: 15, Cha: 10
AC: 23 (+11 Natural Armor, +3 Dex, -1 Size)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Claws), Feral Combat Training (Claws), Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Power Attack
Attacks w/Power Attack: Bite +15 (1d10+17), Claw +16 (1d8+27), Claw +16 (1d8+22)
Special: Pounce, Rake (Claws)
Equipment: Amulet of Mighty Fist +1, Belt of Str +2, Other Stuff.
Note: Because of Dragon Style it may ignore difficult terrain when using charge and pounce.
Plus you get all the goodies an Oracle can give to Fluffy as well as spells and what not.
Edit: Just noticed you cant get Dragon Ferocity without Stunning Fist so you would have to wait until you have a 16th lvl animal companion to pick up Dragon Ferocity, or Oracle 10/Mammoth Rider 1.
So I was thinking an Aasimar or Elf Oracle of Nature 8/Mammoth Rider 1...
You have to be minimum character level 9 to get into Mammoth Rider to meet the skill prereqs.
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@ PleaseDon'tKillMe- The size penalty to AC for a Huge creature is -2, not -1.
If you guys are assuming that you can get aasimar as a playable race, then it's fair for me to assume that I can play an orc, in which case the damage between your super-buffed celestial animal and my barbarian isn't even comparable. (The Spirited Charge feat combined with RAGELANCEPOUNCE means that I can deal massive damage with my first attack and still have a ridiculous amount of damage for the rest of them).
As I demonstrated in the math above, the average damage of my first attack, unbuffed, is 70.5. Then the rest of my attacks will deal 1d8+19 each, for an average DPR per round (assuming I hit with every attack, because I'm a raging, charging barbarian with 31 Strength) is 117.5. That is with me completely unbuffed by the party cleric or wizard. If the party caster is helping me in some way, let's say with haste and enlarge person, because those are common buff spells and one affects the whole party, then my DPR jumps to 162. (6d6+60, plus 3 attacks at 2d6+30 each)
And that is all me. Let's not forget the mammoth as well.
I've stated my math, and made my point. I just hate seeing subpar role-filling because people believe casters are somehow "superior" to melee just because they can solve more problems.
Why dont people do correct DPR-Calculations? This is just somewhat unhelpful - not at all. If you want to compare, do math and not "this".
Sorry.
Do you have a problem with my calculations? I thought I stated them clearly.Why dont people do correct DPR-Calculations? This is just somewhat unhelpful - not at all. If you want to compare, do math and not "this".
Sorry.
Yea. You didnt do any calculation. Thats my problem.
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So I was thinking an Aasimar or Elf Oracle of Nature 8/Mammoth Rider 1...You have to be minimum character level 9 to get into Mammoth Rider to meet the skill prereqs.
Yeah, I know. I was half paying attention because I was more thinking, "That is going to be f+%+ing epic!" Thats why I readjusted it to Oracle 10/Mammoth Rider x. As for the AC thing, Gigantic Steed says you only take a -1 to attack and AC.
Edit: Just realized I forgot to factor in the penalties for large then huge.
For a split second I was thinking you could do this PRC with any animal companion but read the fine print in Mammoth rider that the list of mounts replaces your existing animal companion. I guess my blonde haired/blue eyed Druidess from Sargava with a Huge Gorilla will just have to wait.
For a split second I was thinking you could do this PRC with any animal companion but read the fine print in Mammoth rider that the list of mounts replaces your existing animal companion. I guess my blonde haired/blue eyed Druidess from Sargava with a Huge Gorilla will just have to wait.
Well...the list does also include the caveat "A GM might expand this list to include other possible steeds."
So riding a huge gorilla isn't out of the question.
Ok. I did some math for you all using Tejon's calculator. You can do it yourself if you want to.
Looking solely at the mount since it is difficult to compare a full spell caster to a barbarian in this kind of thing.
Barbarian 10/ MR 1 with boon companion, mounted fury archtype, and full beast totem tree. Mammoth mount is lvl 11
Str: 28 (32 while raging, 1 ability score bump)
Dex: 13
Con: 19 (23 while raging)
Int: 3 (1 Ability score bump)
Wis: 13
Cha: 7
Feats: Power attack, multiattack
Gore x2: 2d8 (one is an attack @ -5 to hit)
Slam: 2d6
Claw x2: 2d8
Charge: +2 global attack
Huge: -1 global attack
Full attack pounce vs AC25 (CR11) = 90.48 DPR
Aasimar(or elf) Nature Oracle 10 / MR 1, Celestial Servant w/o adjusting stats for magical beast, Taking 1/2 lvl to mount lvl. Tiger Mount is lvl 16
Str: 30 (2 ability score bumps)
Dex: 18
Con: 20 (1 ability score bump)
Int: 6
Wis: 15
Cha: 10
Feats: Power attack
Bite: 2d8
Claw x2: 1d8
Rake x2: 1d8
Charge: +2 global attack
Huge: -1 global attack
Full attack pounce vs AC25 (CR11) = 98.96 DPR
Full attack pounce vs AC25 (CR11) while smiting = 143.31 DPR (Don't have this if you go elf)
Note: This is before spells to bump the animal companion are used. IF and it's a big IF the animal companion does get a BAB adjustment for becoming a magical beast then the damage will be a lot more (134 DPR) as the BAB goes up by 4.
The way I see it is that starting out in Mammoth Rider the Oracle is ahead in mount damage and a better choice over all due to spell casting. However, the Oracle will probably not invest more into Mammoth Rider than a single lvl while the Barbarian may go 9 lvls. Also the Barbarian's mount would catch up in lvl to the Oracles in time since the mount would cap at lvl 20 and not progress. For this reason I think that the Barbarian route would get better after about lvl 15-16.
I did the stats kind of quickly on a sheet of paper and could have made mistakes. If someone has Tejon's can they double check the math.
Thanks for this. It might be funny to have a halfling mammoth rider.
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The claws provided by Greater Beast Totem have a base damage value of 1d8, and a x3 crit multiplier, in case you took that into account. So for a Huge animal, they deal 3d6, not 2d8.
Additionally, a raging mount gets +6 to Strength, not +4. (+4 from rage, +2 from the Bestial Mount class feature)
I don't have a program for computing DPR when taking into account AC, but anyone reading, please be aware of this information.
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Full attack pounce vs AC25 (CR11) = 98.96 DPR
Full attack pounce vs AC25 (CR11) while smiting = 143.31 DPR (Don't have this if you go elf)
Don't want to run the numbers but if you give the Tiger the Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Claws), Feral Combat Training (Claws), Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Dragon Ferocity, and Power Attack Feats the DPR goes up. You get a higher to hit (+1 Weapon Focus), your first attack does x2 Str (net +10), and your second attack does x1.5 (net +5). And for fun you can always use Stunning Fist (DC 18) to lower the targets AC by making them loose their Dex to AC and take a -2 AC.
Using this programm, doing the math for your pouncer takes like 30 seconds.
Honestly I'm no fan of the barbarian builds - there's so much cooler stuff to do with the mammoth rider than building an one trick pony (just look at my two builds I posted here on the boards).
The Oracle looks really neat, even though picking an asimar is kinda cheesy:P
edit: taking those 7 feats is not working out until end game:S
I don't have Tejon's calculator, but I would like to point out that the primary attack damage given for both creatures is incorrect. After the 7th-level Large advancement, then the Mammoth Rider damage upgrade, the Mammoth would be doing 3d6 with its Gore, not 2d8. The Tiger should be doing 2d6.
Also, would the damage from the claws the Barb gets from Greater Beast Totem stay the same (1d8) for the mammoth, or would it increase based on the Mammoth's size? If it does increase, how much does it increase by?
The claws provided by Greater Beast Totem have a base damage value of 1d8, and a x3 crit multiplier, in case you took that into account. So for a Huge animal, they deal 3d6, not 2d8.
Additionally, a raging mount gets +6 to Strength, not +4. (+4 from rage, +2 from the Bestial Mount class feature)
I don't have a program for computing DPR when taking into account AC, but anyone reading, please be aware of this information.
I did forget the extra +2 Str. When I get the time I will post an updated DPR with that. It might bring the DPR up to about even or even a little over the top of the Oracle. We shall see.
On the claws. They go to 2d8. If you look on the natural weapons table in the Bestiary, claws go 1d4->1d6->1d8->2d6->2d8. So a Huge creature gets a 2 step increase from the 1d8 that a medium size creature gets. Hence 2d8. I did take into consideration the x3 crit.
Philip: The 2d6 Gore increases to 2d8 on a Gore when size increases 1 step. The 2d8 on the tiger bite is a mistype on my part. The DPR shows the correct number. I will double check.
Edit: It seems that people are looking at the weapon size table for damage increases. This is wrong. Natural weapon size increases have their own table in the Universal Monster Rules section of the Bestiary.
I gotcha. That was my fault. I was going up the scale on the Improved Natural Attack feat rather than using the size upgrades as I couldn't locate that chart at the time. My bad!
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On the claws. They go to 2d8. If you look on the natural weapons table in the Bestiary, claws go 1d4->1d6->1d8->2d6->2d8. So a Huge creature gets a 2 step increase from the 1d8 that a medium size creature gets. Hence 2d8. I did take into consideration the x3 crit.Philip: The 2d6 Gore increases to 2d8 on a Gore when size increases 1 step. The 2d8 on the tiger bite is a mistype on my part. The DPR shows the correct number. I will double check.
Edit: It seems that people are looking at the weapon size table for damage increases. This is wrong. Natural weapon size increases have their own table in the Universal Monster Rules section of the Bestiary.
Ah whoops, my bad.
Well, you have the mammoth with only two feats for some reason, even though he should have around 8 hit dice.
If you add in appropriate feats for an unintelligent bruiser (Like Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, and Improved Natural Attack (Gore)) then it's a little more accurate.
And whether the barbarian build is a one-trick pony or not, I feel like it doesn't matter. Building a bruiser is important for the party, and the idea of a savage warrior riding along the tundra on a 20 foot tall mammoth to me is just awesome. It's the definition of cool. I can't wait to play a Mammoth rider barbarian in a real build.
I think he was trying to keep the mammoth and tiger as even as possible for the DPR calculations. According to the animal companion charts, the mammoth will have five feats at level 11. The tiger would have seven at level 16.
Also, I can't help but agree with you, NeoSeraphi. I was very into the idea of the Ranger/Mammoth Rider, but after reading through this thread, the Barbarian version can't help but appeal to the more brutish side of me.
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I think he was trying to keep the mammoth and tiger as even as possible for the DPR calculations. According to the animal companion charts, the mammoth will have five feats at level 11. The tiger would have seven at level 16.
Also, I can't help but agree with you, NeoSeraphi. I was very into the idea of the Ranger/Mammoth Rider, but after reading through this thread, the Barbarian version can't help but appeal to the more brutish side of me.
Well, he shouldn't. Part of the advantage of the celestial template is that the animal companion is intelligent enough to have any feat it likes, and part of the oracle benefits is that the AC is 5 HD ahead. If we're going to truly compare them, we should look at every possible advantage and disadvantage. If the mammoth gets its extra natural attacks and higher stats from rage, then the tiger should get its extra (better) feats from high Int and more HD.
In my opinion, the Mounted Fury archetype is a really cool idea, but it's far too limited. You get two class features for the mount. Just two. And there are four different rage powers for the mount (Ferocious Mount, Greater Ferocious Mount, Ferocious Trample and Greater Ferocious Trample).
To me, the Mammoth Rider prestige class is basically just all of the class features the Mounted Fury barbarian was missing. Take away my rage progression/powers? Sure! Keep em! I'm going to take my lance and my mammoth and maybe a loincloth to keep it PG-13, and raid some villages now.
So I redid my Calcs:
The Barbarian Mammoth combo has a DPR of 105 vs AC25
The Oracle Tiger combo has a DPR of 99 DPR vs AC25
In response to the rest of the animal companion. I'm lazy. It was more of a rough back of the napkin calc than full builds. Its quicker to throw in rage and an extra attack than it is to think out feat progression.
Overall the celestial tiger has more survivability (DR 10, resist energy 15) and a greater number of feats. In addition, the oracle themselves can bump the tigers stats up quite a lot with spells like bulls str and divine favor (which I did not take into consideration).
I think in the end they are both pretty awesome ideas that play completely differently.
I guess the question would then become would the Oracle/Tiger take only one level of Mammoth Rider or continue on in the class. It seems like the builds have fundamentally different purposes in that regard, at least to me.
The Barbarian/MR combo aims to get into Mammoth Rider as soon as possible, and stay in the class, using the bonuses and abilities from that class to further cement the link between the character and the companion.
The Oracle/MR combo aims to take a single level of Mammoth Rider for the initial bonuses for making the companion huge and other bonuses gained from that first level, then continue leveling in Oracle to keep improving the spellcasting ability of the base class and be able to use those spells to augment the combat prowess of the animal companion.
@Phillip0614: Both paths are feasible for the Oracle. Even more so for a Cleric.
@Phillip0614: Both paths are feasible for the Oracle. Even more so for a Cleric.
That's true; it just seems like the build of Oracle described by Lab Rat was one who means to just dip Mammoth Rider as opposed to diving right in.
@Phillip0614: Both paths are feasible for the Oracle. Even more so for a Cleric.That's true; it just seems like the build of Oracle described by Lab Rat was one who means to just dip Mammoth Rider as opposed to diving right in.
Hmm, his build does seem that way.
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If there is a healer and a tank character already in the party then I think Oracle 10/MR 10 is the best option, you support the dedicated characters with that combo. If there is no healer then a Oracle 19/MR 1 is your best bet. And if there is no damage dealer/tank then Barbarian 10/MR 10 is the way to go. I love it because there are so many options.
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So this isn't entirely relevant, but I was looking back over the class in detail today to refresh my memory, and I have to say I really like some of the non-steed abilities of the class.
Wild Coercion is flavor, but it's really good flavor. The ability to use Intimidate to demoralize animals and magical beasts is cool, and the free Intimidating Prowess makes it even better.
I like how flexible Born Survivor is. Did you enter this class as a barbarian? Grab Iron Will and Improved Iron Will. Are you an oracle? Have some Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortitude. Druid? Here's your Lightning Reflexes/Improved Lightning Reflexes.
Undaunted is just awesome. Finally, finally, finally I can be a barbarian who looks into the Ancient red dragon's eyes and just shrugs and says "What? Come at me!" Essentially granting you a +16 bonus to the DC of Intimidate checks made against you by Colossal creatures, as well as adding your Strength bonus to that check, is phenomenal.
Hunter's Instinct- Every enemy is my favored enemy.
And finally, Mammoth Lord. It's completely worth giving up Mighty Rage for this feature. Immunity to the three most devastating conditions (stun, stagger, and daze) as well as free rage-cycling without any tricks that I would normally have to pull to get it after I multiclassed out of barbarian.
I really like this prestige class. One of the best Paizo has written, in my opinion.
My two coppers. Sorry, had to say it.
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NeoSeraphi, I agree with you...
This might be one of the few Prestige Classes I might be willing to play without hesitation.
Hmm, his build does seem that way.@Phillip0614: Both paths are feasible for the Oracle. Even more so for a Cleric.That's true; it just seems like the build of Oracle described by Lab Rat was one who means to just dip Mammoth Rider as opposed to diving right in.
It is that way. My analysis did not take into consideration ANY spell buffs. Also consider that you are a full blown freaking spell caster with access to nice list of high end cleric spells. i will take the big nasty tiger with a side of miracle any day. The spell casting is just worth way way more than the extra str and abilities for the oracle.
If you are truly missing that extra Str for a combat, the Oracle can always drop a Bull Str/quickened divine favor and get an extra +5 to hit and damage -which would be 1 more than the rest of the levels of mammoth rider would gain you. Also: If you play this in PFS you get animal growth. While some stuff wont stack -size bonuses to Str and Con-, they are better than what you have. I believe the size increase would also work since mammoth riders gigantic steed ability is not magical and thus should stack with animal growth. Who wants to play the Gargantuan Tiger? This guy!
@Lab_Rat: I love the thoughts of a Vanara, Gnome, or Halfling Oracle on a Gargantuan Tiger...
For a split second I was thinking you could do this PRC with any animal companion but read the fine print in Mammoth rider that the list of mounts replaces your existing animal companion. I guess my blonde haired/blue eyed Druidess from Sargava with a Huge Gorilla will just have to wait.
Well...the list does also include the caveat "A GM might expand this list to include other possible steeds."
So riding a huge gorilla isn't out of the question.
If that is the case looks like I may as well go for the gold with a traveling tree house and be a Treesinger archetype Druid with a Treant companion...wow that would be funny!
"the mount cannot deal alternate forms of damage (if it has slams and claws, it can't deal piercing damage, if it has claws and a bite, it can't deal bludgeoning damage)"
- bite deals S, P and B
"the idea of a savage warrior riding along the tundra on a 20 foot tall mammoth to me is just awesome. It's the definition of cool." - can't argue with that... :-)
"Hellknight:@Phillip0614: Both paths are feasible for the Oracle. Even more so for a Cleric."
- Clerics get the same spellist as the oracle - but don't get much else that helps the mount, apart from not having to choose between camel and horse (if medium).. The Cha to saves if great for the paladin and it's great for the mount...
"Hellknight:@Phillip0614: Both paths are feasible for the Oracle. Even more so for a Cleric."
- Clerics get the same spellist as the oracle - but don't get much else that helps the mount, apart from not having to choose between camel and horse (if medium).. The Cha to saves if great for the paladin and it's great for the mount...
Easier access to Lance. Other than that it depends on the second domain.