I have heard from the boards here that the tiger is an exceptional CR 4, maybe one of the best in straight up melee combat but there may be some errors in what you have listed.
First, a tiger can pounce and deliver two claws and a bite but It only gets the option to rake if it can first establish a grab successfully and I don't think it can even do that on the round it actually establishes the hold. If the grab is successful, then it can continue to apply grab damage and the two rakes in following rounds.
Tiger animal companions do not necessarily get all the advantages of tigers. Don't assume they have rake and pounce (I'll have to check).
Same for wild shaping into a tiger. Do not assume they get all the advantages, though at later levels, the wild shape improves and they obviously will.
Still, tigers are awesome and some of the best out there. Overpowered? probably not. The best for their CR in melee combat? Possibly true.
Tigers are wonderful CR 4 creatures but ultimately they are only CR 4 creatures. They have an AC of 14 and thus most other CR 4 creatures can hit it fairly easily. Target the tiger (and why wouldn't you if it's the most dangerous creature on the table) and watch the druid change his tactics.
edited: to reflect the pounce ability post.
Tigers can rake on a pounce. They should not however be doing 100 points of damage however. They are good, but not that good. I think the player is doing something wrong. Could you post his tiger along with any equipment it may have.
|
As for being able to use rake attacks in a pounce, let's refer to the PRD:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Since you can't normally make a rake attack without already being in a grapple at the beginning of your turn, I think it implies that you may make your rake attacks during a pounce whether or not a grapple has already been initiated.
As for keeping the game interesting, introduce creatures with some DR (even at DR 5, you're reducing the tiger's damage output by 25, assuming all attacks hit), ability to fly, or areas with difficult terrain. Make the player have to work and think for his/her pounces.
Tiger animal companions do not necessarily get all the advantages of tigers. Don't assume they have rake and pounce (I'll have to check).
Same for wild shaping into a tiger. Do not assume they get all the advantages, though at later levels, the wild shape improves and they obviously will.
I checked. Animal Companion and Wild Shape both add the relevant abilities at 7th and 8th level, respectively.
Do remember that if the druid is casting a summon spell, it's a 1 round casting time, which means he can't act that turn and damage might disrupt the spellcasting.
Ahh sorry when i said 100 points in one round i was talking about multiple tigers.
The issue is not the tiger. I just reread you post. Your player just seems to know what he is doing. He can change what he is using, and the damage will do down some, but he will still give the bad guys trouble. Just wait until he discovers T-Rex's.
I would suggest not having an open lane to the bad guy, and since summoning is a full round action, which takes an entire round, then disrupting the spell is also an option.
Dispel magic can send the summoned tigers away. His animal companion might be lacking in gear unless you are handing out a lot of magic items or money. Focusing fire on it keep it out of combat if it is waiting to be healed.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Tigers are wonderful CR 4 creatures but ultimately they are only CR 4 creatures. They have an AC of 14 and thus most other CR 4 creatures can hit it fairly easily. Target the tiger (and why wouldn't you if it's the most dangerous creature on the table) and watch the druid change his tactics.
edited: to reflect the pounce ability post.
This. Their AC is only 12 if they charge (pounce), so the other enemies should just beat on a tiger that pounces on one of their friends and watch the druid PC panic.
Also...
Rake: A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
While the Pounce description does sort of conflict with this, I would still say the Rake description trumps since it specifically says it can't be done in the same round as a grapple. Pounce isn't that specific. In fact, this conflict would be perfect for a FAQ candidate...
|
Using terrain will help a lot here since tigers have to charge to pounce. Have enemies use elevated combat positions, fight from trees, balconies, outcroppings, etc.
Make sure your enemies have escape options if you plan on using them for more than a single combat.
Giving them flying (pretty on par at 7th-8th level) will also make it a lot harder for those tigers to gang up on them.
The worst thing you can do as a bad guy when you've got a tiger druid on you is stand in a nice wide-open space.
|
Tigers are wonderful CR 4 creatures but ultimately they are only CR 4 creatures. They have an AC of 14 and thus most other CR 4 creatures can hit it fairly easily. Target the tiger (and why wouldn't you if it's the most dangerous creature on the table) and watch the druid change his tactics.
edited: to reflect the pounce ability post.
This. Their AC is only 12 if they charge (pounce), so the other enemies should just beat on a tiger that pounces on one of their friends and watch the druid PC panic.
Also...
Rake: A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
While the Pounce description does sort of conflict with this, I would still say the Rake description trumps since it specifically says it can't be done in the same round as a grapple. Pounce isn't that specific. In fact, this conflict would be perfect for a FAQ candidate...
I would rule as follows (which may not be RAW/RAI),
Round 1: Charge/Pounce
Round 2: Can't use Rake
Round 3: Can only Rake if they began a grapple in Rnd 2.
Also, you could start giving humanoid foes reach weapons. If I recall correctly the Tiger's pounce would provoke an AoO which would be resolved prior to the Tigers attack but at a reduced AC of 12 (on account of the charge). The chances are very good that the Tiger takes a beating before unleashing hell on the NPC.
|
|
Using terrain will help a lot here since tigers have to charge to pounce. Have enemies use elevated combat positions, fight from trees, balconies, outcroppings, etc.
Make sure your enemies have escape options if you plan on using them for more than a single combat.
Giving them flying (pretty on par at 7th-8th level) will also make it a lot harder for those tigers to gang up on them.
The worst thing you can do as a bad guy when you've got a tiger druid on you is stand in a nice wide-open space.
It only takes 1 enemy with a brace weapon to just ruin a tiger's day.
Round 1: Charge/Pounce
Round 2: Can't use Rake
Round 3: Can only Rake if they began a grapple in Rnd 2.
Eh a specific ruling will always over rule a generalization. In general you can't Rake without grappling the previous round, BUT in this specific instance you can use your Rake if you Pounce.
|
|
<edited for space>I would rule as follows (which may not be RAW/RAI),
Round 1: Charge/Pounce
Round 2: Can't use Rake
Round 3: Can only Rake if they began a grapple in Rnd 2.<edited for space>
The problem is, tigers get the grab special quality on their bite and claws, allowing them to initiate that grapple as part of their pounce. Once a tiger gets a hold of you, he messes your day up. There is no pause in damage between round one and round three.
Reach weapons, terrain, and flying. That's what you need to deal with tiger druids. Maybe give your bad guy a metamagic rod of quicken and a few spells from the Create Pit line :)
Think in 3D... At the level you are at the playing field should not be flat plane. Some floks should up flying, some should start out on high fixed spots like towers/ trees/ leviateing ect. Terrain, terrain, terrain most important rule D20 comabat. Use it to your advantage like winding trail back forth in front spell caster or archer before these melee type machine guns can get to them. Like several rounds of shoot and fall back. Rough terrain stops or break up charge lane. Summon to block, pit spell in the path. explode tangle foot bag in the way. Rough terain make some knock over book shelf, trash can ect.
Ground is just uneven not flat. Do no make combat flat.
|
|
Using terrain will help a lot here since tigers have to charge to pounce. Have enemies use elevated combat positions, fight from trees, balconies, outcroppings, etc.
Make sure your enemies have escape options if you plan on using them for more than a single combat.
Giving them flying (pretty on par at 7th-8th level) will also make it a lot harder for those tigers to gang up on them.
The worst thing you can do as a bad guy when you've got a tiger druid on you is stand in a nice wide-open space.It only takes 1 enemy with a brace weapon to just ruin a tiger's day.
Eh a specific ruling will always over rule a generalization. In general you can't Rake without grappling the previous round, BUT in this specific instance you can use your Rake if you Pounce.Round 1: Charge/Pounce
Round 2: Can't use Rake
Round 3: Can only Rake if they began a grapple in Rnd 2.
See above, tigers also get to initiate the grapple when they land a rake or bite since they have the grab special ability.
Bracing reach weapons is good, terrain is key, and remember one of the most important parts of being a GM: Anything your player can do to you, you can do to him. Might be time for an evil animal lord or fey animal summoner to enter the picture...
I personally think nearly all of the non-magical animals are pretty much under powered. I know they have to conform to game mechanics and blah blah blah but a chimp is, on the average 7 times stronger than a human and a gorilla 10 or more times. When I run a natural creature encounter I beef them up (along with their CR, or course).
|
|
I personally think nearly all of the non-magical animals are pretty much under powered. I know they have to conform to game mechanics and blah blah blah but a chimp is, on the average 7 times stronger than a human and a gorilla 10 or more times. When I run a natural creature encounter I beef them up (along with their CR, or course).
Thats fine but a Chimps CR doesn't come from his physical strength...it comes from his inability to use tools and wear armor. Sure if you put me up against a chimp I'd die, but if you give me a shield and an axe I can at least try and put up a fight.
Have oppositon up that is not generally getting hit (mirror images, blur, displacement ) or make the druid hesitant to pounce (illusions - of persons or over dangerous, hidden spots ). Yeah Create Pit = nasty....
Also have the low wisdom of the tigers work against them ( Confusion etc)
From experience : Had a druid prone to pounce/charge a few campaigns back . A trapdoor here, a camouflaged pudding (black pudding that simply digested the animal companion) some other place.... left the charcter "scarred" for a few levels. Nevermind puddings and oozes which really love being divied up into independent entities by slashing attacks.
Oh, and use some swarms. Just gotta love the impression on a druid's face if he and his animal companions are getting eaten by a CR 3 Mosquito swarm bleeding them. By the fellows from the animal kingdom^^
Still having problems ?
Not possible to charge/pounce in dificult terran, so that is one solution.
Let the bad guys use same tactics.
Use undead, tigers will not approach the undead unless specifically tuned for that.
Use spells like fireshield that damages the attacker. 5 attacks => a lot of damage to the tiger.
|
|
Not possible to charge/pounce in dificult terran, so that is one solution.
Let the bad guys use same tactics.
Use undead, tigers will not approach the undead unless specifically tuned for that.
Use spells like fireshield that damages the attacker. 5 attacks => a lot of damage to the tiger.
I've done that before - spellcraft - spell identified as a summoning.... entangle circled on myself
So a wildshaping tiger druid using his animal companion and some summon nature's ally spells can do 100 points of damage in a turn at level 8? I'm failing to see the problem. A raging Barbarian at level 8 with haste gets three attacks at a much higher bonus, and can easily do that kind of damage, as can a smiting paladin or a sneak attacking rogue.