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I would like some clarification on buying spells in Society. First of all, if a wizard/magus/someone who uses a spellbook finds a scroll during a scenario, can they copy it into their spellbook during/after the scenario and pay the scribing cost?
Second, if you buy a scroll can you copy it into your spellbook before using it (say, at the beginning of a scenario)? If you can do this, I assume you don't have to pay the scribing cost since you already bought the scroll.
Most importantly, can PCs copy spells from each other? The Guide says that PCs can not sell things to each other, but assuming the PCs will wave the scribing cost, it's not really selling anything, it's just teaching someone else your spell. A guy at GenCon told me that you just had to record on your chronicle sheet the number of the character from whom you copied the spell, but I'm not sure where he got this from because I can't find that rule anywhere.
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So buying a scroll and scribing is the normal way... and costs cost of scroll PLUS scribing cost, right?
And copying from a PC is just the scribing cost?
yes and yes.
Copying from other players, please note:
Wizards can copy from Wizard and Magus
Magus can copy from Wizard and Magus
Alchemist can copy from Wizard, Magus and Alchemist (but wizard/magus CANT from alchemist)
Witch can copy only from another Witch
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@Helaman: Correct
@Mike: Be careful, from what I have seen so far, you aren't going to be seeing all that many Magus-compatible spells.
In order to not waste money trying to scribe spells that aren't on your spell list, keep a crib sheet around with alist of the Magus soells by level on it. Add a note for scribing cost per level, and you have most everything you need right there.
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I'm more than willing to share my magus' spells, but unless I meet a much higher level magus/wizard there's not really anything I can get from them... Good ol' Knowledge pool and Blessed Book...
I do believe that that exploit has been errataed. No idea if the errata will apply retroactively or not...
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I'm more than willing to share my magus' spells, but unless I meet a much higher level magus/wizard there's not really anything I can get from them... Good ol' Knowledge pool and Blessed Book...I do believe that that exploit has been errataed. No idea if the errata will apply retroactively or not...
I've got the most recent copies of both UM and CRB, and nothing stops it. Besides, they knew about it in the playtest, and (was it Jason or James that was in charge of that) knew about it, and seemed to hint that it was a feature, not a loop-hole. <shrug>
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Actually, you don't have to purchase the scroll after the scenario. This was covered under PFS FAQs.
How can wizards, witches, magi, and alchemists learn new spells or formulae?
Pages 219–220 in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook discuss how to handle a wizard’s spellbook, but Pathfinder Society makes one adjustment to these rules: a wizard does not have to purchase a scroll found during the course of a scenario in order to copy that scroll into her spellbook. The wizard only needs to spend the time, succeed on the appropriate checks, and spend the amount of gold listed on the table on page 219 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Keep in mind that the process of copying a spell from a magic scroll into a wizard’s spellbook removes the spell from the copied scroll, turning it into a blank piece of normal parchment. The normal rules for finding items during the course of a scenario are that they can be used during the scenario but must be purchased after the scenario in order to be kept. This clarification for wizards and their spellbooks is the singular exception to the gear rules. An alchemist can likewise copy spells from scrolls found during a scenario into his formula book as detailed on page 28 of the Advanced Player's Guide. Similarly, a witch PC's familiar can learn spells from another witch's familiar or from scrolls found during the course of a scenario, as detailed on page 68 of the Advanced Player's Guide. Magi follow the same rules in copying spells to their spellbooks as wizards in all ways save that they use the magus spell list to determine if they may learn a spell, instead of the sorcerer/wizard spell list. If a wizard, witch, magus, or alchemist PC is adventuring with another PC who could teach them a spell, those PCs may exchange spells on their own terms as long as they make the proper skill checks and their trading of arcane secrets does not interfere with the flow of the game, at the GM's discretion. If you don't find a scroll of a given spell during the course of an adventure, you have to buy the scroll to learn it. An NPC isn't just going to give you access to his spells for free, and purchasing a scroll of that spell represents the cost of gaining access to his spellbook. Any spell or formula learned must be accounted for on a scenario's Chronicle sheet in the "Conditions Gained" section.
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You do not need to buy a scroll found during a scenario if you copy it during the scenario in which it is found.
If after the game ends and you have not copied it, at that point you need to buy the scroll.
Edit: Mike if you read this, this comes up all the time, and even after players read the FAQ they still are confused on the rule. Can you add to your to do list in making that part of the FAQ clearer? You can make it item 24 on your list ;)
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Okay, a quick question. If I get a scroll on a logsheet that I earned via GM credit, do I have to buy the scroll and then learn it, or can I just learn it by paying the scribe cost?
This will definitely help my ranger/magus, and my wizard when I get a chance to play him. Too bad the other arcane casters my ranger/magus travels with are a witch and a sorcerer.
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@Dragnmoon - Out of curiosity, what part is confusing? I mean, I read this for the first time about a month ago...and it pretty much reads to me that if the spell if found in the scenario, the player can scribe it for the cost in the core rulebook for scribing, otherwise, they have to buy the scroll and do it later in front of a different GM (as the roll still needs to be made either way). I thought it was pretty straight forward, myself.
@PMSchulz - What Nosig said. Rules are written would imply that you have to buy the scroll at full cost and then still pay to scribe it in front of another GM later on. Considering that a character which is leveled by GM'ing doesn't have to worry about getting and paying for conditions, death, etc, I guess it ends up being a trade off.
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Um...Dragn...I did NOT say you have to buy the scroll afterwards. I said that "if the spell if found in the scenario, the player can scribe it for the cost in the core rulebook for scribing, otherwise, they have to buy the scroll and do it later in front of a different GM"
To clarify even further....
If you find a scroll / book (as the OP asks in the first question), you have two choices.
1)If you want to attempt to copy it during the same session, you only have to pay the cost to copy it over per the core rule book... you do NOT have to buy the scroll afterwards.
2)If you want to attempt to copy it during another sessions (Perhaps you want to wait until you've gained more ranks in Spellcraft to have a better success chance), you must buy the scroll (as we all know, PFS items disappear at the end of the session unless you buy them). You would still need to pay to scribe it in your book per the core rules .
I understand that some rules (like the monk debate) are certainly open to misunderstanding and debate. However, I do not see how this one is, given the clarification of the FAQ. I'm not seeing what people would want to argue, either. There's a cost to buy scrolls, and a cost to copy it. They are two seperate costs. This FAQ allows one to avoid the cost of the purchase if they find a spell in the game, and make the attempt at the table during the same session.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think it's funny how people keep referencing having a GM witness the roll, or waiting for more ranks in Spellcraft to increase your "chances", etc. Unless you're fortunate enough to find a spellbook waaaaaaay over your head (and survive fighting its owner), you should never be failing spellcraft checks to scribe spells, because you should never be rolling those checks.
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Thanks for the clarification Nosag...I'll repost it here, corrected.
If you find a scroll / book (as the OP asks in the first question), you have two choices.
1)If you want to attempt to copy it during the same session, you only have to pay the cost to copy it over per the core rule book... you do NOT have to buy the scroll afterwards.
or
2)If you want to attempt to copy it during another sessions (Perhaps you want to wait until you've gained more ranks in Spellcraft to have a better success chance), you must buy the scroll (as we all know, PFS items disappear at the end of the session unless you buy them). You may buy it at the end of the current session or a future session, since it is now on your chronicle sheet. You would still need to pay to scribe it in your book per the core rules .[
And to clarify something else, I want to make sure I'm not coming down / talking down to those who have expressed that there seems to be an issue or misunderstanding with this. I genually just want to understand why that perception is out there, since it seemed pretty clear to me once I read the FAQ.
Jiggy, why do you think you shouldn't need to make the rolls? The DC is 15+(Spell Level). That's 16 DC for a 1st level spell. Even with +3 class bonus, +1 favored class bonus, attribute bonus and even +2 skill focus, there's still a failure chance in there for most (That's what... +11?). By the time you get to higher levels, however, it should become a non issue since spell levels only go up 1/2 levels and you can put 1 rank/level.
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Jiggy, why do you think you shouldn't need to make the rolls? The DC is 15+(Spell Level). That's 16 DC for a 1st level spell. Even with +3 class bonus, +1 favored class bonus, attribute bonus and even +2 skill focus, there's still a failure chance in there for most (That's what... +11?). By the time you get to higher levels, however, it should become a non issue since spell levels only go up 1/2 levels and you can put 1 rank/level.
Because of the Take 10 mechanic. That's what it's there for.
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Jiggy - there are players out there who NEVER take 10. Really. (eye roll). After having a PC fall 3 times climbing a 20 foot wall (in 10 attempts), the rest of the party rigged ropes to haul a PC up the wall, because the player insisted on rolling it (and couldn't seem to roll above a '3'). But heck, it's their PC and I am not going to tell them how to play it.
*Headsmack* Ah, I forgot about that...and both of you are right. I GM all the time, and I never have players take 10. That would take away the need to roll! :D
I believe casters can still 'share' spells, though they still have to pay the minor copying cost.
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Um...Dragn...I did NOT say you have to buy the scroll afterwards. I said that "if the spell if found in the scenario, the player can scribe it for the cost in the core rulebook for scribing, otherwise, they have to buy the scroll and do it later in front of a different GM"
I understand that is what you are saying now, but when I made my comment tha is not what you said..
Actually, you don't have to purchase the scroll after the scenario. This was covered under PFS FAQs.
How can wizards, witches, magi, and alchemists learn new spells or formulae?
Based on that comment and only that comment, it made me think you were saying you never have to buy the scroll after the scenario. Which is incorrect.
I was just clarifying that statement to make sure people were aware that if the scroll was not scribed during the scneario but done later after the scneario was over, then you do have to buy the scroll.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The way I GM, I see part of my job is to educate the players at the table: both about cool parts of Golarion lore, and about the rules of the game.
This is particularly true with new-ish players, but it comes across at most tables.
So I'll explain the Take 10 / Take 20 rules if I see players not using them. If they're just dead-set against them, then that's fine, but then they ought not complain to me when they don't Take 20 to check battle scenes for treasure and miss the "DC 20 Perception" loot in the scenario.
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I'm always baffled when there's an alleged "trap guy" (usually a rogue) who checks a door for traps with a single check (which is only a move action) and somehow all the other PCs, in-character find this sufficient.
Merisiel: Wait, lemme check the door for traps first!
Ezren: Good idea. While you do that, I'll ca-
Merisiel: Looks fine to me!
Ezren: Wait, what? You barely glanced at it! How can you be sure there aren't any traps?
Merisiel: I checked it!
Ezren: For what, two or three seconds? You glance at the door for three seconds and we're supposed to believe it's safe?
Merisiel: I'm confused; I already checked it for traps, but you're acting like I should be doing something else. What is it you want exactly?
Valeros: *opens the door*
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I understand that is what you are saying now, but when I made my comment tha is not what you said..
Not to be arguemenative, but I cut and pasted my earlier post...it is what I posted, verbatum. Seriously!
The way I GM, I see part of my job is to educate the players at the table: both about cool parts of Golarion lore, and about the rules of the game.
Sure...I just need someone to remind me to remind everyone about take 10/20. Generally, I call for a check, people roll dice and I run with it...I just never think to remind them of that. The powers that be know only too well that I remind them of other options during gameplay that can help them ("Did you know you can five foot and flank here?"). I just never think about Take 10/20, mostly because in the various groups I run, even the 'advanced' players never use it. (And I think it's more out of bad habit more than anything else.)
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Just to calrify JC we are talking about 2 different posts... I am talking about this one, which is what my reply was to..
And you are talking about some another post where you went into more detail on that statement.
I now understand you are not confused about the rule, which is cool, I was just clarifying your post which did not go into detail, and if left as said, some people might read as thinking you don't have to buy scrolls after the scenario to scribe later if you don't scribe them during the scenario they are found.
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and whats sad is Scribers know the upper limits of scribing capability
if the character is only going up to lvl 12 then the following formulae apply
DC = 15+ Spell level
Wizard - Max Spell level 6 - Spellcraft bonus required - +11 (Take 10) = 21
Witch - Max Spell level 6 - Spellcraft bonus required - +11 (Take 10) = 21
Magus - Max Spell level 4 - Spellcraft bonus required - +9 (Take 10) = 19
Alchemist - Max Spell level 4 - Spellcraft bonus required - +9 (Take 10) = 19
dont think Im missing any but you get the Idea ...
Stat +3(assumption)
Class skill +3
Ranks 3 for magus/alch 5 for Wiz / Witch
thats all you need for taking 10
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and whats sad is Scribers know the upper limits of scribing capability...But there are other uses for Spellcraft, most importantly identifying a spell as it's being cast. If all you're using it for is scribing spells into your spellbook, then you're not really using it to its full potential.
Agreed
though I dont know about you ... but I personally have never seen ... even going back to 3.5... a counter spell action be taken where that check is Necessary ...
PFS basically gives you the Identify (some tables might be anal and drag it out)
Prepare from another book is the same DC's as listed above
Decipher Scroll is the only real odity here
and Craft is not legal
IMHO the argument that all spellcraft is good for is adding spells is a VERY Strong one
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On more than one occasion I've seen spellcraft used to determine whether the BBEG teleported or went invisible. That distinction can be huge - I once ran a module where a demon teleports out of the room, buffs up, then teleports back in. Everyone mistakenly thought she merely went invisible and started busting out their anti-invisibility measures for a couple of rounds before getting interrupted when she teleported back in, with them in no way ready to resume the fight.
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hey Im not advocating doing that ... just pointing out the math and the minimum requirements(I dont do it on my Arcane casters at least)
basically
Player "Im goning to scribe Spells"
GM "ok roll your spellcraft"
Player "I take 10 and have higher than a +11"
GM "Pay Ink Cost per Spell" *Signs off*
makes scribing spells a LOT Easier and a lot less time consuming
in fact I would recommend GM's and players alike have a list of whats in their Spellbook / Scenario for after everything is done that they can pass to arcane users for Speedy referance ... you could cut the time post game to 1/2 where spells are concerned using this method
and whats sad is Scribers know the upper limits of scribing capability...But there are other uses for Spellcraft, most importantly identifying a spell as it's being cast. If all you're using it for is scribing spells into your spellbook, then you're not really using it to its full potential.Agreed
though I dont know about you ... but I personally have never seen ... even going back to 3.5... a counter spell action be taken where that check is Necessary ...
A successful Spellcraft check in one scenario allowed my wizard to alert the party that the dragon in the room was an illusion and that the breath attack was actually a lightning bolt spell. It completely changed the dynamics of the fight.
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A successful Spellcraft check in one scenario allowed my wizard to alert the party that the dragon in the room was an illusion and that the breath attack was actually a lightning bolt spell. It completely changed the dynamics of the fight.and whats sad is Scribers know the upper limits of scribing capability...But there are other uses for Spellcraft, most importantly identifying a spell as it's being cast. If all you're using it for is scribing spells into your spellbook, then you're not really using it to its full potential.Agreed
though I dont know about you ... but I personally have never seen ... even going back to 3.5... a counter spell action be taken where that check is Necessary ...
Awesome Scenario BTW :-)
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Just to calrify JC we are talking about 2 different posts... I am talking about this one, which is what my reply was to..
And you are talking about some another post where you went into more detail on that statement.
I now understand you are not confused about the rule, which is cool, I was just clarifying your post which did not go into detail, and if left as said, some people might read as thinking you don't have to buy scrolls after the scenario to scribe later if you don't scribe them during the scenario they are found.
Yeah...I guess that's the problems with forums...its easy to infer/imply stuff. I was simply saying in that very first line, that one does not HAVE to pay for the scroll...that there is another option as detailed in the FAQ I posted. I was essential replying to the numerous posts above that supported an earlier answer that sounded like people had to pay the scroll cost after the session regardless.
Well, anyway, given that I believe we're all on the same page with our poor wordings and misunderstandings, do you still believe there's room for misunderstanding on this issue? Your earlier concern was that players are confused by this, and my thoughts were along the lines of it seeming pretty cut and dry. Any thoughts?