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can lunge apply to more than one attack in a round as part of a full attack action?
Lunge (Combat): "You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made."
There's no restriction on what actions you can take. Keep in mind the increase to reach only applies during your turn, even though the AC penalty remains until the start of your next turn.
Can I target three different targets, with one attack each in one full attack?
If you have three attacks to make, yes.
Full Attack: "You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones."
Will beliar's bite (with feral combat training) affect all three?
Belier's Bite (Combat): "When you damage an opponent with an unarmed strike, you deal an extra 1d4 bleed damage.
Special: This ability does not stack with other special abilities, attacks, or items that allow you to deal bleed damage."
Feral Combat Training (Combat): "Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
If you're using whichever natural weapon you chose for feral combat training, then you can apply belier's bite.
Does rending claws (feat) count as a pre req for the other rending feats like rending fury?
Rending Fury (Combat): "Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6, rend special attack."
Rending Claws (Combat): "If you hit a creature with two claw attacks in the same turn, the second claw attack deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. You can use this feat once per round."
By RAW, Rending Claws does not grant the rend special attack. It does work similarly though, so you could ask your GM for a house rule.
No... one lunge, one attack. Period.
"melee attacks" is plural.
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Lunge (Combat)
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
Yes, you can. Lunge applies to all or none of your attacks. Note that it only works on your turn, so it will only rarely give you additional attacks of opportunity.
There's nothing in the text to suggest it only applies to one attack.
@LazarX - Wrong.
Lunge (Combat)
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
See ATTACKS, not attack. If you lunge during your turn all your attacks whether they are against a single target or multiple targets during your turn, they are at the extra 5 feet. Plain and simple as RAW. There is no way you can interpret this as only a single attack if you read the RAW. Period.
So @Redchigh -
Yes and no, it depends on how many attacks you can get in the round normally. You can lunge out and bite as one attack and then claw/claw the other foe as your Bite/Claw/Claw.
Belier's Bite would come into effect with each attack.
Rending Claws/Fury discussion thread here.
Edit: Ninja'd by Grick!
Thanks! That might be just the thing to make sure I can get my max attacks per round.
are there any situations (other than deferring my initiative until someone comes within 10 feet, or readying the attack) that lunge could grant AoO?
I can't think of anything that would allow you to do this.
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You switch on Lunge to make an attack at 10ft. This triggers someone's readied action to do something at 10ft from you which happens to be worth an AoO. Since Lunge is already active and it's still your turn, you get to make an AoO.
Or: some other side effect of your actions in between your first attack (which is when Lunge goes active) and the end of your turn triggers an AoO.
But all in all it's pretty rare.
Just going to lay a bunch of rules out there for you.
Lunge lasts til lend of turn, so yes, you can full attack with it.
You can choose who to attack with each attack in a full attack. You drop someone, you're free to move on to someone else within reach.
You can take a 5 ft step before, after or during an action. A full attack action is an action. So, not only can you use lunge on all attacks and choose who to attack as the dice fall, one by one, you can also take a 5ft step in the middle of that to reach some new victim.
Furthermore...Whirlwind Attack, despite a great deal of common misconception, is a full attack action, not a full round action. So Lunge, 5 ft stepping, etc...all works with that, too.
You switch on Lunge to make an attack at 10ft. This triggers someone's readied action to do something at 10ft from you which happens to be worth an AoO. Since Lunge is already active and it's still your turn, you get to make an AoO.
Or: some other side effect of your actions in between your first attack (which is when Lunge goes active) and the end of your turn triggers an AoO.
But all in all it's pretty rare.
Just one more question on Lunge and this situation would be not so rare...
I have a Lvl 14 pure Fighter with improved TWF with three longsword and two nasty shieldbash attacks which allow me to push the enemy back as a free bullrush attempt.(yes, I have all feats needed and a heavy +5 spiked bashing / +1 menacing impact quickdraw mithral shield)
If I am right, you can use Lunge and gain a flanking bonus when your enemy is threatened by an ally. I will recieve the bonus, make my full attack and...
1) my allies gain the flanking bonus for their AoO from my successful bullrush attempt
2) my allies gain the flanking bonus for their AoO from all of my successful bullrush attempts including the last one, which will be the 'end' of my turn
3) all of number 2) plus the flanking bonus lasts until the end of the enemies turn, since he could provoke an AoO from me.
Which answers are true?
Don't get me wrong, I love the game as it is, but with Outflank and a menacing weapon it would be a +6 bonus to my allies! and I think that's worth the question ;-)
Thanks for your thoughts
Can you use Lunge with a readied attack?
NO!
Lunge works ON YOUR TURN
Readied action:
"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."
Also you can't lunge on an AoO since they do not occur on your turn either.
If I am right, you can use Lunge and gain a flanking bonus when your enemy is threatened by an ally.
Not just threatened, but threatened on its opposite border/corner.
Flanking: "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."
1) my allies gain the flanking bonus for their AoO from my successful bullrush attempt
If someone threatens the creature on the opposite side/corner when the enemy provokes, then the person gains the flanking bonus.
2) my allies gain the flanking bonus for their AoO from all of my successful bullrush attempts including the last one, which will be the 'end' of my turn
Your allies gain the flanking bonus for any attacks they make when the opponent is threatened on its opposite side or corner. The AoO happens when the creature is moved out of a square.
3) all of number 2) plus the flanking bonus lasts until the end of the enemies turn, since he could provoke an AoO from me.
When the AoO is provoked, check to see if flanking conditions are true. If they are, then apply the flanking bonus to that attack.
Hi Grick, thanks!
The flanking situation is the simpliest possible:
Ally - enemy - 5ft free space - me
If my Shield Slam/bull rush succeeds I push my enemy 5ft in direct line towards my ally (and follow the enemy doing this, still flanking him). This push triggers the AoO from my ally, wether I push him too or not.
Answer number 3) is my favorite (of course) and I would love to see my DM to agree with your point of view...
Can you use Lunge with a readied attack?NO!
Lunge works ON YOUR TURN
Readied action:
"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."Also you can't lunge on an AoO since they do not occur on your turn either.
Good point!
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Time Scout. A few notes for you.
1. The Bull Rush supplied by Shield Slam never provokes:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
2. Even if it did, you would have to Bull rush your ally in order to move the enemy in your diagram. If you did not bull rush him then the enemy would not move and thus would not provoke.
3. Unless your ally also has outflank the feat does nothing. Both you and your ally must have the feat for either of you to get the bonus.
The flanking situation is the simpliest possible:
Ally - enemy - 5ft free space - meIf my Shield Slam/bull rush succeeds I push my enemy 5ft in direct line towards my ally (and follow the enemy doing this, still flanking him). This push triggers the AoO from my ally, wether I push him too or not.
Ah, I see. So you would have to also bull rush your ally (at -4) in order to push the both of them back a square.
And, due to a fun loophole, your ally only provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies, so the enemy doesn't get to attack him.
So yes, if you succeed at bull rushing your ally, the enemy would provoke, and (assuming your ally threatens) you would both gain the flanking bonus on that attack.
1. The Bull Rush supplied by Shield Slam never provokes:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Performing the free bull rush attempt granted by shield slam doesn't provoke.
However, if he has Greater Bull Rush, the enemy will provoke attacks of opportunity from all of his allies.
To rephrase without noun madness:
If Time-Scout uses Shield Slam to bull rush an orc, Time-Scout doesn't provoke an AoO for doing so.
If Time-Scout has the greater bull rush feat, then if he successfully moves the orc, then the orc provokes attacks of opportunity from all of Time-Scouts allies.
If Redchigh is Time-Scouts ally, standing on the far side of the orc, then Time-Scout must also bull rush Redchigh in order to move the orc. If he succeeds, both Redchigh and the orc move back, and both of them provoke attacks of opportunity from Time-Scouts allies. Since the orc is not an ally, he doens't get to make an AoO against Redchigh.
Time Scout. A few notes for you.
1. The Bull Rush supplied by Shield Slam never provokes:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity.2. Even if it did, you would have to Bull rush your ally in order to move the enemy in your diagram. If you did not bull rush him then the enemy would not move and thus would not provoke.
3. Unless your ally also has outflank the feat does nothing. Both you and your ally must have the feat for either of you to get the bonus.
@3 yes we all have this teamwork feat
@1 I build this fighter with Treant Monk's Guide to Fighters. It's kind of complex, but I used tons of feats for this fighting style and of course have Improved and Greater Bull Rush too. Greater BR gives the AoO for my allies.
@2 yes, of course. My Shield attacks with +26/+21 and the attack roll is used instead of a CMB for the bull rush AND my push receives a +9 (+4 from Greater BR +5 from Impact weapon). This way most Allies are easily pushed backed even with a -5 for the '2nd' push.
My DM unofficially hates this weapon combo, but it could have been worse if I were using two shields...
Barbarians can have AOO's with Lunge.....
@lanitril
I'm happy to say that I can argue with my DM and WE always find a Solution for these kind of Rules conflicts. It'a always a win-win situation, because we just want to have Fun playing pathfinder.
But of course... I will always try to get the best out of my PC's ;)
Thanks to all of you for your interest and helpful advise!
It's my belief that while this is RAW, it may not be RAI. It's something that I would ask your GM about, because essentially, while readying an action uses up the turn, and then you do the action after your turn, to ready an action is essentially delaying part of your turn, and then taking the rest of it later. It may not read this way exactly, mechanically, but that's basically what it is. I'm thinking the wording of lunge was to prevent AOO abuse, not to prevent something that a character would logically be able to do.
So you are willing to take a -2 to AC from your turn till your next turn on something that MIGHT happen?
When would the -2 to AC occur on a readied lunge? Because you'd be taking the -2 from a lunge that has not and may not ever occur.
I think that is why you can't ready a lunge.
The way I'd rule it, the -2 to AC would only occur if a lunge occurs, and then the -2 ends at the start of the next turn. They still get a -2 on their AC for the same amount of time if a readied action happens. If the character never lunges, they never take the negative. Besides that, if they never perform the readied action, the lunge feat isn't used in the first place.
Like, I can see the way the feat appears and works, locking you into sort of a "Lunge Mode" where your reach just flat increases by five feet, and your AC goes down two. But having lunged before, in my fencing days, I can tell you I don't take a minus to AC until I put myself in the awkward position of the attack. And you can definitely ready it for when they're in range. Until I'm actually attacking that far away from me, there's nothing that makes me easier to hit. Like, it really seems like it should transfer better.
Until they use lunge, they don't take any penalties for using lunge. Because they haven't.
Also, off topic, does anybody think that a 6 BAB is a little steep to use this feat? Seems to me that a high Dex would work just as well to qualify for it....
I get it. I understand what you are envisioning. Your character waits tensley to lunge at a foe as soon as they come with in range. Totaly makes sense, totally would be a thing someone would do.
But the fact is you are getting the bonus (+5foot reach) without taking the disadvantage of -2 ac for the entire time between your turn and when the conditions for your readied action occur and it simply doesn't make sense to take the -2 AC before any action has occurred.
I understand what you are envisioning and if you house rule it sure, but RAW you can't and if I was GMing I wouldn't allow it. Essentially extending your reach at your convience or only when you need it is against both RAW and RAI, for this feat, especially if you consider there are things like Spring Attack and Combat Patrol which do very similar things to what you are talking about. If that is something your character wants to do, I'd say your character needs to take the feats that do in fact do that, not lunge.
But the fact is you are getting the bonus (+5foot reach) without taking the disadvantage of -2 ac for the entire time between your turn and when the conditions for your readied action occur and it simply doesn't make sense to take the -2 AC before any action has occurred.
That's not how Lanitril described it.
If you've allowed him to use lunge as part of a readied attack, then he's not getting any benefit (nor penalty) until that readied attack happens. And after that single attack happens, he no longer has the benefit (since it's not his turn) but he keeps the penalty until the start of his next turn. And the start of his next turn is at the initiative count of when he took the readied action.
But the fact is you are getting the bonus (+5foot reach) without taking the disadvantage of -2 ac for the entire time between your turn and when the conditions for your readied action occur and it simply doesn't make sense to take the -2 AC before any action has occurred.That's not how Lanitril described it.
If you've allowed him to use lunge as part of a readied attack, then he's not getting any benefit (nor penalty) until that readied attack happens. And after that single attack happens, he no longer has the benefit (since it's not his turn) but he keeps the penalty until the start of his next turn. And the start of his next turn is at the initiative count of when he took the readied action.
For all intents and purposes you have extended the characters reach by 5 feet if you can ready lunges. How would it be any different than giving them a reach weapon in terms of ability to strike 10 feet away?
"I ready a lunge if anyone comes close enough."
Right there you have a 10 foot reach all around you until the conditions are met. You may not THREATEN those squares but you've worded it so you can attack them. Ergo: you've given yourself a bonus with no penalty.
And again, there are feats that do let you do what is being described. So I'm sticking with RAW on this.
For all intents and purposes you have extended the characters reach by 5 feet if you can ready lunges.
You've extended the reach by 5 feet for one specific attack triggered by a set condition.
"I ready a lunge if anyone comes close enough."
Right there you have a 10 foot reach all around you until the conditions are met. You may not THREATEN those squares but you've worded it so you can attack them. Ergo: you've given yourself a bonus with no penalty.
Your reach doesn't increase until you use the feat. When something does come close enough, you make that one attack, and then the benefit is over, yet the penalty stays. You don't threaten those squares, and you can't do anything else, and your AC is lowered for one full round.
And again, there are feats that do let you do what is being described.
Those feats don't do that. Spring Attack doesn't have anything to do with reach, and Combat Patrol only increases your threatened area, it doesn't let you make an attack on your turn or with a readied action.
So I'm sticking with RAW on this.
By all means, it's clearly a house rule. It just doesn't do what you're claiming.
I think you can't use Lunge after your turn because it would transform everybody into a whirlwind of AoO attacks.
I think you can't use Lunge after your turn because it would transform everybody into a whirlwind of AoO attacks.
You can't do so because the feat only increases reach during your turn.
If you're talking about Lanitril's house rule, that doesn't apply to AoOs either.
@Lochmonster
He is taking several penalties:
- If no one comes within 10' he wasted his standard action
- If you are using a readied action to attack you are not getting iterative attacks - just one single attack.
- Your attack is going to trigger before any enemies get to make their attacks, so any return attacks (which you interrupted by your readied action) are still going to be at -2 AC for you.
RAW, all lunge says is you must choose to use it before any attacks are made. Therefore before any attacks are made lunge is not in effect. The only question in my mind about whether it is RAW or not is whether the action taken during a readied action is your turn or not. If you delay your action then at the time you decide to take your action it is definitely your turn. If you ready an action that seems more ambiguous. You are interrupting someone else's action which makes it look like it's not your turn. But your initiative moves to when your readied action went off which looks a lot like someone who delayed their action and it would be your turn.
I would probably let a player declare a readied action to attack without specifying they use lunge to do so - then when someone gets within 10' claim their attack - and apply lunge at that point in time.
The only question in my mind about whether it is RAW or not is whether the action taken during a readied action is your turn or not.
"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."
While 'action' and 'turn' are sometimes used synonymously, I think it's pretty clearly not your turn, otherwise there are potentially unforeseen consequences from effects that are triggered by your turn. (2 sets of bleed damage that round, for example)
Adding onto bbangerter's post:
You get to make one attack. After you've attacked the first opponent to step within 10 feet, your action is over and you only threaten adjacent creatures again.
In summary, you're spending a feat, foregoing your normal round's actions hoping for an opponent to come nearby so you can make one attack -- if they do, then you're taking a -2 penalty to AC until your next turn -- and you still can't make attacks against other opponents that are ten feet away.
That is a far cry from free benefits.
Although, if you really wanted to build a strawman argument, you'd use the case of a fighter wielding a reach weapon who readies an action to five-foot step, lunge and attack the first opponent who comes within 20 feet.