Rycaut |
[I'm playing this character in PFS but the question is not limited to PFS play]
I'm playing a Lore Warden Tiefling - having a lot of fun with this character but always intended to multiclass (likely via a small dip into another class) to take advantage of the unusual nature of this character - he's a fighter with an 18 INT (and an 18 DEX) with WIS and CHA as dump stats (limiting what he could dip into).
He's at 3rd level already as a pure Lore Warden - so already got the bump to CMB/CMD from being a Lore Warden and has taken Combat Reflexes, Weapon Expertise as his fighter bonus feats and gets Combat Expertise as a bonus from being a Lore Warden (Iron Will and Improved Trip are his other feats). As a Lore Warden he gets all INT skills as class skills and he's taken full advantage of that.
My initial plan was to dip into a magic using class - initially I was thinking about a level (perhaps later another couple) of Wizard - possibly Diviner (Foresight) for the act in surprise rounds and utility of the special ability of the Foresight school and then primarily to use wands with very limited casting (though wearing masterwork studded leather means minimal arcane casting failure chances. Not sure if I'd go arcane bond for an extra spell each day or familiar (likely something like Hedgehog to help buff will saves which are his weakest save). The hit to BAB is there and with this plan I'd never been a very good caster - but could use lots of nice wands, detect magic, spellcraft spells etc
But there are three other alternatives I am considering.
1. Magus. Very tempting (but then might just stick with Magus but that would mean losing my favored class bonus going forward - which might be balanced by the sheer flexibility and power of being a magus... Pros: not a huge hit to BAB (especially figuring arcane pool enhancements to my weapon), Spell Combat is nice and after 2nd level spellstrike is even nicer, nice bumps to saves and some interesting archetype options to explore - Kensei might grant an exotic weapon proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword?) as well as Weapon Focus in exchange for less casting and a slight risk of arcane spell failure if I still wear light armor - with canny defense also helping with AC.). CONS - the Magus can be really complicated, the Kensai even more so with lots of interacting feats, spell casting, arcane pool etc - all powerful and useful but can slow down play.
2. Sorcerer (Sage). Perhaps a bit odd for a Tiefling but a sage sorcerer would be an INT not CHA based class so could offer some interesting options for dipping. Not overpowered but would give a ranged touch force attack (albeit a fairly weak one), some limited but highly flexible spell casting (plus wand usage) or if I took the Tatooed Sorcerer archetype would give a familiar and a bit of a boost to my casting ability (Varisian Tatoo) which when dipping would be useful. Likely however only a one level dip (a second level would give a slight WILL save boost, +1BAB but only +1 1st level spell while going to 3rd level wouldn't give much since the 3rd level Arcane bloodline ability for metamagic isn't really useful until you have at least 2nd level spell slots. And Identify as a bonus spell isn't a really big deal.
3. Rogue. Doesn't help solve my magic use desires (unless I stick with the class for enough levels to get to a rogue talent and take minor magic to probably get Detect Magic as an 3x/day spell like ability) but it would give a bunch of other interesting benefits. Tons of skills - both newly as class skills and in terms of points for each level making me very much the full on skill "monkey". Plus probably trapfinding (unless I choose an archetype but haven't found one that really appeals for this character) as well as sneak attack damage (which is particularly good when combined with Combat Reflexes in certain situations). Evasion is a good argument for a 2nd level (plus a Rogue talent - though they aren't quite as good as a bonus feat) and a 3rd level for the further bump to sneak attack plus saves would be tempting.
(another option though clearly not a fantastic one but might be a really fun one from a role playing perspective is to dip both into an arcane class and into rogue for a level or likely two for evasion) That would be a full 2 point hit to BAB which is a big deal - but would grant a ton a skills and a crazy flexible character with lots of things he could do in and outside of combat.
I don't know if there are any Prestige Classes which I should consider for this character - but I'm definitely open to exploring them if someone has a good suggestion.
(and yes another option is to just stick with straight Lore Warden but I would really like to give this character some other things to do in and outside of combat)
Rycaut |
Duelist is okay but would take 3 more levels of Fighter (or 4 levels if I dip into a non-full BAB class), two feats (Dodge and Mobility) which I wasn't planning on taking though Dodge isn't horrible - Mobility is only situationally useful). It also is only useful for this build for a few levels (probably 2) - enhanced mobility at level 3 or grace at level 4 (since this build already has combat reflexes getting it again but only with one weapon isn't very useful) are likely not as useful as levels in fighter - between bonus feats, advancing fighter level to qualify for useful feats and advancing in lore warden levels for various benefits.
But yes it is a nice class - however I think Kensei would be more potent as 4-5 levels of Kensei would give me full Canny Defense (assuming I boost my INT in the future to more than a +4) and a ton of other useful feats, spell casting and all the various Magus special powers.
Oterisk |
If you are going to take a hit of 2 to your BAB, I would recommend taking 7 levels of Kensai and finishing with 10 of Eldritch Knight. You would hit level 20 and have access to 6th level spells and have a BAB of 18. If you took 5 levels of Wizard, you could get 8th level spells at 19, but you would be down to 17 BAB at most.
Of course, if you wanted to rethink Duelist, and you have a positive wisdom modifier, I would recommend 2 levels of Master of Many Styles for Crane Wing or Kirin Strike for flavor. But you seem to favor the spell casting, so I would recommend the Eldrich Knight path.
Gobo Horde |
I would second the alchemist idea. there are 2 archetypes that would greatly benefit the style of character you are building and they are the mindchemist and the internal alchemist.
The mindchemist grants you the ability to create cognatogens witch can boost your int for a good 10 to 20 minutes and derps on your str (it looks like your going dex heavy so that seems less important), a few decently powerful bombs because of your int, a single spell and brew potion as a bonus feat for the first level. The second level would grant you perfect recall, allowing you to add your int mod twice on all knowledge checks. It also grants you the discovery that you can use to get 3 extra languages, infusion, an extra arm, or a familiar if you want. You also get a second 1st level spell.
The internal alchemist gets breath mastery that can be interesting for those times you have to go underwater or through a poisonous cloud and with a con of 12, you only need to breath twice a day. It also grants a neat ability to play dead that can be a lifesaver sometimes. The second level grants you a slew of feats that might be useful if you want to spend your discovery on it.
The real gems in the 2 level dip are the breath mastery, perfect recall, discovery and cognatogen.
I would generally advise against dipping just to gain some spellcasting as what you gain is just average with your main class and just mediocre with casting spells. Certain classes grant you nice bonus abilities and those might be worth it, but the limited spellcasting probably is not.
Darigaaz the Igniter |
2 levels of Vivisectionist Alchemist. Take the extra arm discovery and use a feat for extra discovery to do it again. Suddenly at level 5 your tiefling sprouted two new arms. Use a two handed weapon, wield a shield, and still have a hand left to chug potions/extracts/mutagens with. And 1d6 sneak attack too, I guess.
Sereinái |
How about Witch for some hexes?
Flight, Fortune and Ward would all be fair for splashing.
Four splash levels of White Haired Witch would instead give a 10 foot reach attack with trip some trip and grapple.
The spell list is a little bit limited compared to wizards and clerics but not much so compared to Inquisitors.
Rycaut |
Alchemist is an option - my group already has someone who plays an alchemist so i was avoiding it but it is worth some consideration. A few drawbacks however:
- PFS play means that the Craft features as well as the Brew Potion features are changed/rendered less useful. Extra Bombs is substituted for Brew Potion for example (which does mean 7 bombs with a single level dip into Alchemist which isn't bad)
- Poison Use is pretty unappealing to me as a player - it is possible in PFS play (and isn't evil) but logistically and personally I don't really want to use it. However the archetypes that give it up also aren't all that appealing.
- certain nice Alchemist features aren't quite as good for an Outsider (specifically if I stuck with Alchemist for 6 levels the Healing Touch discovery appears to be limited to other people of the same type - though 30 points of Fast Healing at 5 per round as a free action is clearly appealing by itself
- Alchemists don't get Orisons so this wouldn't be a way to get Detect Magic which is one thing I've been trying to accomplish - that said they do get some useful class skills (though not that many) and they have some interesting unique extracts (and discoveries are interesting and available via Extra Discovery feats even if I don't advance in Alchemist levels.
Rycaut |
Vivisectionist is not available for PFS play anymore. But even if it were the two extra arms wouldn't really gel with the Lore Warden/Weapon Finesse route I've taken with this character (two handed weapons don't work with Weapon Finess). Plus my Tiefling already has a prehensile tail so has some nifty tricks with swift actions to pull small items (like a potion/extract) already available to him.
Bard Archaeologist won't work for this specific character because his CHA is too low to cast spells as a Bard. It is a nice archetype (though there are actually other archetypes of Bard which would be a better fit for a Lore Warden - Daredevil for example would at 2nd level get a bonus to a combat maneuver which would stack with Lore Warden's CMB/CMD bonus as well as feat bonuses (so such a multiclass character would be a tripping or disarming machine for example)
Witch is an option - though the familiar is a serious liability (while also granting some potentially useful benefits - +2 will or +4 init being the most likely in this case. Hexes are nice - Flight is interesting for dipping though it is basically like having at will Feather Fall (if I went 3 levels then also 1x/day levitate) . Slumber hex is gamechanging when it works (but a multiclass witch won't have the DCs to be effective with hexes that have saves). The patron bonus spells don't offer a lot for someone dipping - though Elements shocking grasp might be nice (or some of the patrons that offer clerical spells). A few spells are interesting (Ill Omen is nifty) and due to a quirk of PFS rules Witches can use the all useful Cure Light Wounds wands (which in PFS play don't differentiate between divine/arcane casters).
But generally while Hexes are nice I think the benefits of Magus or a Wizard school may be greater for dipping - but definitely worth looking at.
Rycaut |
Going from memory but I think my stats are:
STR 13
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 5
CHA 7
(Daemon heritage tiefling gets +2 DEX & INT, -2 WIS)
PFS is a 20 point buy. I'm not sure where I'll put my level 4 stat boost. Likely into WIS but STR is also a good option. Possibly into int or DEX if I want to just prepare for level 8.
Bertious |
If you dip a single level in transmuter(shapeshifter) you get a free +1 to a physical stat and the ability to gain a natural attack 7 times per day as a swift action which at that level (and assuming you take the +1 in strength atm) would give you a secondary bite or gore with a +2 to hit and 1d6+1 damage.
Atarlost |
You could dip master of many styles monk for two levels. If you do it after qualifying for Kirin Style you can get the rest of the chain without it's inflated prerequisites. An extra double int to your first hit per round is nothing to sneeze at. You'd need your knowledges pretty much maxed out though. I think at 18 int you can just barely hit CR+4 on a take 10, which may not be enough if you're going up a tier in PFS. It takes an action to initialize kirin style though. You need to waste a feat on unarmed strike to qualify for Kirin Style unfortunately.
You could also dip maneuver master monk for flurry of maneuvers. I have heard that PFS is heavy on humanoids so the -2 to get a free maneuver with your full attack action isn't going to prevent a lore warden from landing them. This only needs one level IIRC.
Neither of these monk archetypes uses wisdom for anything but stunning fist if you wear armor and they lose nothing except wisdom to AC from wearing armor out of a 2 level dip.
Rycaut |
while the boost to STR (or another physical stat depending on what I do at level 4) would be nice, I'm not sure transmuter(shapeshifter) would be the direction I want to take. Natural attacks just 7 times a day that will rarely hit aren't all that appealing - I'd rather concentrate on synergies with my Lore Warden attack methods (start off with a Trip - w/a +12 (assuming that my 4th level dip doesn't add to my BAB - that's due to weapon finesse, improved trip and a +1 rapier as well as the Lore Warden's +2 to CMB/CMD). The secondary attack won't add a lot to my effectiveness and transmutation spells aren't as useful for Tieflings (Enlarge Person can't target Outsiders)
monk is a somewhat more intriguing option - it certainly helps with all of my saves (which is nice) but does hurt BAB (slightly) and clearly has to be a dip as with a WIS of 5 I won't get a worthwhile KI pool or AC boosts. Going to Level 3 as a monk could be an option for the right mix of bonus feats/abilities as maneuver mastery would even out the slight dip to my CMB vs straight fighter progression. Maneuver master could be interesting from an action economy (as especially with the Lore Warden bonus plus weapon finesse the -2 on the free trip attempt would be pretty minimal) And going to level 2 would be good to get evasion (always nice) as well as a second bonus feat.
It appears that Maneuver Master monks can still get their free additional maneuver even when armored as they have replaced Flurry of Blows (not modified it) but that might be arguable - have to check.
Certainly something to consider - little synergy with my high INT (unless I take the suggestion for master of many styles - Kirin style) though that would require waiting until at least level 6 to dip and spend one feat on improved unarmed strike and another feat on Kirin Style)
Bertious |
Continuing on the wizard theme i'd suggest you take a look at
Earth (bonus to cmd vrs some attacks and +1 to hit and damage in melee when on the ground as well as an AoE damage effect for those pesky swarms)
And Wood (+1 to dex con or wis, and 3+int times per day create and launch a short spear up to 100' using Int to hit and damage)
Void would also be nice but mostly just for the +2 to saves vs spells and spell effects.
Rycaut |
Indeed Earth, Wood or Diviner (Foresight) were the Wizard options I was most seriously considering. Earth is pretty interesting - though I'm a bit unclear what would count as being "on the ground" (unclear if being underground in a dungeon or inside of a building would count - most likely not - which would mean those effects don't impact most PFS scenarios)
Tom S 820 |
Wizard Diviner with
Foresight School
Associated School: Divination.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the diviner's fortune and scrying adept powers of the divination school.
Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
We call it "you big dummy power". For one level dip it huge power.
Great for any fighter type. Wizard Spells to buff you. Shield for Archer, Two-handed fighter, or two weapon fighter.
Use that attack roll, use that CMD, use that save, use that Crittcal check, use that skill check, use that save all instead.
alertness free and free pet power as well.
+2 will Save cause your will sucks.
True Strike for when you must hit or to become Combat manuver god.
Rycaut |
Indeed that's why Diviner (foresight) is an option I've been seriously considering. The mechanics of rolling the extra d20 as a free action seem like they could be interesting but also likely surprisingly powerful. True strike is nice though a bit slow (but as you note usefull in ensuring combat maneuver success)
Gobo Horde |
I would probably shy away from kirin strike as it requires alot of investment to make work. While adding double your int is a huge benefit, a swift to enter the stance, a swift to target someone, and a swift to increase your damage is limiting especially if you have a tail already eating up your swift actions. To make it really work you really need combat style master (and another style) to get rid of that first swift and then it becomes a bit of a challenge ability. First turn, chalenge a target, kill your current target. Second turn charge the challenged target and kirin strike him. Third round chalenge someone else, then charge a different guy. Fourth turn, charge the challenged guy again. If you are good at predicting this can work, but generally just fails horribly. The last thing that can make it work is if your gm lets you use lore wardens Know Thy Enemy to work with kirin strike. This is not legal via PFS so it is of no help to you.
Again I would shy away from it.
Story Archer |
Rycaut -
The short answer is Urban Barbarian for two levels and take the Auspicious Mark Rage Power... the long answer? Check out this thread I put together a while back explaining the versatility it offers in depth:
Also, with Combat Expertise for free, seriously consider going all the way for Whirlwind Assault... with WA, Lunge, a Reach weapon and a 5' step mid-action, life becomes very, very good for a melee type.
Rycaut |
It seems like Kirin Style while nice also requires a lot of actions to set up. The Lore Warden's Know Thy Enemy also takes a costly action (a full standard action) but is built into the class so doesn't cost any feats or anything that takes multiple turns to be useful (Style requires you to swift to enter the stance, swift to do the knowledge check and then on the third turn a swift to add to your damage.
My tail swift actions don't actually come into play all that often (currently) while in combat - mostly would be situational such as pulling out a potion or flask etc - likely far more useful if I multiclassed into something like an alchemist.