Monks have trouble hitting? They would against opponents whose AC is through the roof. But what is the AC they are trying to hit, regardless of whether its the monk or magus? Level 10 monk sitting on a +24 to hit, averaging 29 damage per hit, 33 vs a creature with DR. Rogue is sitting on +25, averaging 25 damage a hit. Unless the party is constantly running into creatures with an AC of 40 and saves of at least +20. In such games, have seen players just laugh, told the DM to go f@#~ themselves and quietly leave the game.How are you getting a +24 to hit at level 10 with an unarmed monk? That's something like 8 points ahead of the level 11 monk I've been playing for the last few months.
Let's see.. at level 10 I had a +14 to hit with my highest flurry attacks.
10 + 4 (str) + 1 (aomf) + 1 (weapon focus) -2 (flurry penalty)I can't see more than another +2 from stat boosters and a more expensive aomf, so yeah. Where'd that other +8 to hit come from?
More importantly, where is the average 29 dmg a hit comming from? Lets say the level 10 monk has a +5 AoMF and a STR of 24... At level 10 you do 1d10 with your fists, averaging 5.5, +7 STR per hit, and +5 from the AoMF... That's only 17.5 a hit. Even with dragon style, boosing it to 1.5 str mod, that's only 20.5. And this is assuming some massive boosts and leways, and still the monk is no where near 29 dmg a hit. :/
Do most GMs really just stop using classed humanoids at higher levels?
No, but they do get rarer. The monk is great when they encounter them, but a class that can only dream of contributing with half the encounters is still a class with problems.
Monks have trouble hitting? They would against opponents whose AC is through the roof. But what is the AC they are trying to hit, regardless of whether its the monk or magus? Level 10 monk sitting on a +24 to hit, averaging 29 damage per hit, 33 vs a creature with DR. Rogue is sitting on +25, averaging 25 damage a hit. Unless the party is constantly running into creatures with an AC of 40 and saves of at least +20. In such games, have seen players just laugh, told the DM to go f++* themselves and quietly leave the game.
Build, please - because knowing you, this relies on a dozen feats and abilities taken from 3.5 or 3rd party sources. My monk at level 10 can only get together +14 on a flurry - thanks to poor gear, he has no AoMF, and no monk's robe, but he does have a decent AC.
+14 at level 10? 8 from Flurry, 5-6 strength/dex, +1 weapon focus? I'm sitting at +17 at 10th level, and that's just starting at 16 strength post-racial mods and with weapon focus. Poor gear sucks :(
At least you're hitting half the time. Hope he gets another +1 somewhere before next level!
(and the equalizer's numbers do seem off a bit)
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I've never seen a monk have issue with hitting. The damage is low though and their defense are minimal so that hurts them. At higher level their damage output increases but never gets like the fighter nor should it. Their AC also get a lot better and they usually have crane wing by then.
Rogues are the opposite problem. They can start with with a great AC and hit fairly well due to flanking. But at the higher levels their has AC peaked and they are struggle to hit. Damage out is good but they can't land a sneak attack with iterative attacks. But if they get lucky they tend to do good damage but that get more rare the higher level you get.
The magus sucks at hitting too but they don't need to hit with their sword that's just gravy when it does. It's that touch attacks works all the time. If they buff their sword starts working better too. With Bard in the group the Magus gets quite tough. Frigid Touch for example and sword attack that hits is nice.
I saw a game with Bard, Monk, Rogue, Magus and Cleric. The monk, rogue and magus were awesome in that game because the Bard and Cleric buffed them up. At level 7 this group took down a Great Cyclops in 2 rounds with out taking any damage. I was the bard in that group.
voska66: just as a clarification, sneak attacks work just fine on iteratives, assuming they're getting them from flanking or improved invisibility (or similar thing) and that isn't house-ruled away.
voska66: just as a clarification, sneak attacks work just fine on iteratives, assuming they're getting them from flanking or improved invisibility (or similar thing) and that isn't house-ruled away.
Yeah, it's the reason TWF for rogues is justified; to make the most of their Sneak Damage.
voska66: just as a clarification, sneak attacks work just fine on iteratives, assuming they're getting them from flanking or improved invisibility (or similar thing) and that isn't house-ruled away.
I think he might be saying that the chances of landing any of the iteratives are low, not that you're only allowed one sneak attack per round.
I think he might be saying that the chances of landing any of the iteratives are low, not that you're only allowed one sneak attack per round.
True, but the same could be said of most of the extra attacks granted by higher BAB. Keeping in mind that TWF doubles the sheer number of them, which grants a higher chance for 20 and automatic hits... Which isn't a bad thing, short of house rules for greater penalties for 1's which are equally high potentialy offsetting that.
That said, I still don't go past normal TWF simply because the penalties do stack up, and unless I'm getting TWF feats for free(bonuses) I would rather spend those feats elsewhere.
If monks have trouble hitting, we should stop and consider if the AC is too damn high.
Come back to 3.5, ssssssssssssss.
News flash: in 3.5, Monk flurry was worse, and monster ACs were pretty much the same.
More updates on what actually was in 3.5 and what is rose-tinted vision at eleven, courtesy of your favourite Snarky Bag With Teeth. Stay tuned!
Nope, you are wrong on the AC, you are not considering the removal of weaknesses by the new pathfinder monsters. I've been comparing 3.5 to pathfinder monsters over a number of months. One of the few path monsters that is actually weaker is the roc, so there is something for you. What you get though, in pf, is an increase in ability scores, saves and ac of monsters. 3.5, a lot had weaknesses, clear weaknesses that could be exploited. A save would be weak, or ac would be low and hp high. DR was a bit less common.
Now with pathfinder once you start getting into some mid-range crs, weaknesses are hard to find. Stats are high all round and ac creeps ever more upward. What am I talking about?
Sinspawn ac 19, cr 2, all saves good, will +4, SR 11 and immune to mind-effects. Sandpoint devil, ac 21, cr 8, over 100 hp, all saves are good, sr 14, dr 5/cold iron, bays, breath weapon, spells, every ability score that isn't int, is above 15. Avorial, a bird with ac 25, cr 9, good saves, especially against poison except will, but sitting on SR 20, immunities and resistances, its lowest ability score is a 15. Shield archon, ac 28, cr 10, no weaknesses, two immunities, sr 21, lowest ability score is a 14, a giant tower creature, still has a reflex of +7. Demon kalavakus, ac 25, cr 10, dr, immunities, resists, sr. Gug, ac 24, cr 10, good saves except for reflex, massive hp, two immunities. Hound of tindalos, ac 20, cr 7, no weak saves, immunities, lowest ability score is a 16. Jyoti, ac 24, cr 9, strong saves all round, four immunities, five resistances, sr 20, lowest stat is a 12.
The numbers are very high for almost all round, for whatever paizo makes that has a middlish cr. The low cr stuff I like, the borrowed 3.5 monsters with some changes, also good! It gets boring though, these lack of weaknesses and common high acs.
I've never seen a monk have issue with hitting. The damage is low though and their defense are minimal so that hurts them. At higher level their damage output increases but never gets like the fighter nor should it. Their AC also get a lot better and they usually have crane wing by then.
AC is never something monks have had to complain about unless they dump dex and wis for strength. The rising damage dice don't even come close to matching the fighter's static bonuses, but it's DR and low odds to hit that really cripple him.
Rogues are the opposite problem. They can start with with a great AC and hit fairly well due to flanking. But at the higher levels their has AC peaked and they are struggle to hit. Damage out is good but they can't land a sneak attack with iterative attacks. But if they get lucky they tend to do good damage but that get more rare the higher level you get.
Agreed, rogues do struggle at these levels to stay in the game. Still when they do hit, the enemy feel it.
The magus sucks at hitting too but they don't need to hit with their sword that's just gravy when it does. It's that touch attacks works all the time. If they buff their sword starts working better too. With Bard in the group the Magus gets quite tough. Frigid Touch for example and sword attack that hits is nice.
Actually, our party magus has kept up with the full BAB classes pretty well in both hits and damage - but then he has the advantage of self-buffing.
+14 at level 10? 8 from Flurry, 5-6 strength/dex, +1 weapon focus? I'm sitting at +17 at 10th level, and that's just starting at 16 strength post-racial mods and with weapon focus. Poor gear sucks :(
At least you're hitting half the time. Hope he gets another +1 somewhere before next level!
He didn't, we just hit 11th level. No amulet of mighty fists, no monk's robe, just a +2 Belt of Dexterity (to 23) and that's all she wrote to help me hit - AC is 28, which is reasonable at least.
We are basically having to make do largely with what we can make in limited downtime and what we find and guess what? We didn't find much a monk can use. The party paladin just hauled in a nice suit of Celestial plate armour, the oracle a rod of splendour, the magus an scarab of protection, my monk got the booby price, a lantern of revealing. The only character doing worse equipment-wise is the ranger, and even he has a +2 composite longbow.
Of this evening's combats, my monk landed two hits. The first was against a mercenary devil, which used greater invisibility and it's flight to keep mobile and used a lot of spells/SLAs to hit the party. Some sucky rolls didn't help, but for the entire combat my monk's sole contribution was in the final round to flank with the paladin and provide a +2 bonus. A nasty debuff left me on 1d10-1 damage, and with no means of passing DR (and it having a great AC) I had no chance. It couldn't be disarmed, was flying, so the only maneuver left was grappling, which failed.
Second fight was against a greater wraith, I managed to score two hits with a ghost touch kama I had, and rolled snake-eyes for damage. Thankfully on this occasion we could all see it, and I was able to get behind it to provide flanking to the paladin and magus.
This is really underlining to me how equipment dependent the monk is - and how dependent on specialist equipment, too.
I tried to read that last post from Loyalist I really did...but did you really need to jumble all the information like it came from out of a shredder?
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If monks have trouble hitting, we should stop and consider if the AC is too damn high.
Come back to 3.5, ssssssssssssss.
News flash: in 3.5, Monk flurry was worse, and monster ACs were pretty much the same.
More updates on what actually was in 3.5 and what is rose-tinted vision at eleven, courtesy of your favourite Snarky Bag With Teeth. Stay tuned!
Nope, you are wrong on the AC, you are not considering the removal of weaknesses by the new pathfinder monsters. I've been comparing 3.5 to pathfinder monsters over a number of months. One of the few path monsters that is actually weaker is the roc, so there is something for you. What you get though, in pf, is an increase in ability scores, saves and ac of monsters. 3.5, a lot had weaknesses, clear weaknesses that could be exploited. A save would be weak, or ac would be low and hp high. DR was a bit less common.
Now with pathfinder once you start getting into some mid-range crs, weaknesses are hard to find. Stats are high all round and ac creeps ever more upward. What am I talking about?
Sinspawn ac 19, cr 2, all saves good, will +4, SR 11 and immune to mind-effects. Sandpoint devil, ac 21, cr 8, over 100 hp, all saves are good, sr 14, dr 5/cold iron, bays, breath weapon, spells, every ability score that isn't int, is above 15. Avorial, a bird with ac 25, cr 9, good saves, especially against poison except will, but sitting on SR 20, immunities and resistances, its lowest ability score is a 15. Shield archon, ac 28, cr 10, no weaknesses, two immunities, sr 21, lowest ability score is a 14, a giant tower creature, still has a reflex of +7. Demon kalavakus, ac 25, cr 10, dr, immunities, resists, sr. Gug, ac 24, cr 10, good saves except for reflex, massive hp, two immunities. Hound of tindalos, ac 20, cr 7, no weak saves, immunities, lowest ability score is a 16. Jyoti, ac 24, cr 9, strong saves all round, four immunities, five resistances, sr 20, lowest stat is a 12.
The numbers are very high...
Those monsters are the exception, not the rule. Just like there is a CR 6(?) construct that has a high to-hit. I think it is a +20 or 21.
I do agree that overall PF monsters are tougher than the 3.5 counterparts, but that is not a secret.
And I am glad when people like you wraith, are honest.
Good guy wraithstrike.
For havoc.
Sinspawn ac 19, cr 2, all saves good, will +4, SR 11 and immune to mind-effects.
Sandpoint devil, ac 21, cr 8, over 100 hp, all saves are good, sr 14, dr 5/cold iron, bays, breath weapon, spells, every ability score that isn't int, is above 15.
Avorial, a bird with ac 25, cr 9, good saves, especially against poison except will, but sitting on SR 20, immunities and resistances, its lowest ability score is a 15.
Shield archon, ac 28, cr 10, no weaknesses, two immunities, sr 21, lowest ability score is a 14, a giant tower creature, still has a reflex of +7.
Demon kalavakus, ac 25, cr 10, dr, immunities, resists, sr.
Gug, ac 24, cr 10, good saves except for reflex, massive hp, two immunities.
Hound of tindalos, ac 20, cr 7, no weak saves, immunities, lowest ability score is a 16. Jyoti, ac 24, cr 9, strong saves all round, four immunities, five resistances, sr 20, lowest stat is a 12.
Thanks for the reformatting. :)
I knew what you point was in your last post, but it was harder to read.
Because of balance, they get far more special abilities and bonuses across different things compared to the fighter: saves, skills, that they don't have the points left, if you will, to be d10 with the best bab.
I don't think a monk should outdamage a fighter, but he should outdamage a fighter using unarmed attacks. Right now it is fairly close. I think I had it to be within a few(less than 5) DPR at one time.
But even with that aside class feature synergy seem to be the main issue, but that is for another thread.
If a monk is dedicated to damage he can do respectable damage if the enemy does not have DR, but if he focuses on damage he is lacking elsewhere. Taking some of the MAD away will help for 15 point buy games.
I agree a rogue can do more damage against a human and most beast but has anyone ever tried too sneak attack a plant or elemental or even a golem and lets not forget about armor that negates sneak attack sometimes. How often does a monk have too worry about taking a attack of opportunity so he can set up a flank.
The monk has to take the same chance to get into melee whether he is setting up a flank or not, and the number of monsters immune to sneak attack is pretty small, and so are the chances of coming across fornication armor, and even that is not 100% anymore.
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Fornication armor sounds fun..
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I have to admit, Atarlost sums it up pretty good. He leaves out that most of the monk's special abilities are easily duplicated by a spell or item, but otherwise...yeah. Not saying that I would want some of the monk's special abilities to be gone, but many of them are not worth a feat. Some that in particular are bad are:
Still Mind - this used to be anything mind-affecting, whatever the source. Why is it charm spells all of a sudden?
Ki Pool - not enough ki. If this is supposed to be the monk's rage/bardic performance/arcane pool, it's nowhere near big enough and costs way too much for many abilities.
Slow Fall - can't this just be 10' per level and forget about listing it? Oh yes, if we did that, we'd have dead levels.
Wholeness of Body - there are three problems with this:
1 - it costs too much ki.
2 - it takes too long to be useful in combat, and anyway action economy means the monk will be concentrating on not getting hurt rather than healing up. Out of combat you will save your ki and drink a potion.
3 - it heals too little. Really a few hit points is less than a potion can manage. If it could repair ability drain or negative levels, it would be worth it.
Abundant Step - how many other classes have a feat-tax on an ability in order to make it work as intended? NONE. It needs to come with the feats included, or never need them in the first place.
Diamond Soul - so you have a class which can barely function unless it's buffed and you make it harder to buff them. Needs fixing, eliminating, whatever but it needs SOMETHING. Why not make it useful and follow a thread with immunity to curses or death effects or ability drain?
Tongue of the Sun and the Moon - OK, why is a class so disinterested in talking to people that is has no social skills including Linguistics suddenly able to talk to anyone?
Empty Body - would be worth it if it came earlier and was a swift action.
I have to say that for all these bugs, the thing that really gets the monk down still is ability to hit and ability to get through DR. It's a combat class, the first thing it should be able to do is fight.
Level 15 you get a death attack with a fortitude save. Too bad nearly everything you might want to kill with it has a high fort save and size bonus inflated constitution. Still, it's on a par with similar spells.I agree with all yuour points except maybe this one. It is true that it is hard to kill a standard monster but this ability works great against wizards,withcs,bards,rogues,ninjas,sorceres and oracles, so i think is slightly better taht you say. But still it does not compensate those levels of slow fall u.u
I'll definitely stand by this ability. There are still tons of classes out there who inherently don't have good fort saves and as most monks pump WIS, the DC for this can be a real challenge for those classes. Literally one shotting a Wizard is a pretty cool ability, granted the wizard can have a lot more than just one use of this per a day(as they can prep loads more save or die spells) while monks only get 1, but this is still cool and useful. Also, not the once a week ability it was in 3.5 so, again, not bad.
Now am I the only one whom feels we're getting a bit off topic? Wasn't this supposed to be about Bard, Rougues, and Magi and how they don't/do suffer the problems of the monk? :/
The magus can hit because of his arcane accuracy and buffing his weapon using the arcane pool. The rogue, well i'm not too sure how the rogue hits, he can purchase slightly better weapons and is not spreading his stats out quite as thin. Really he might have a bonus 10% chance over the monk of hitting, if you make a ranged rogue, he can get a little bit more from pointblank shot and some magic items. Bards get buffs that they can share with the party and they have archetypes that focus on hitting.
Depending on the party set up I would recommend the monk taking gang up, but that's an investment of two feats and three stat points to get a +2 in flanking circumstances.
The magus self-buffs, the bard everyone-buffs, only the rogue alone doesn't hit better than the monk (probably about as well on average), but when he hits it really counts with those sneak attack dice.
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The magus can hit because of his arcane accuracy and buffing his weapon using the arcane pool. The rogue, well i'm not too sure how the rogue hits, he can purchase slightly better weapons and is not spreading his stats out quite as thin. Really he might have a bonus 10% chance over the monk of hitting, if you make a ranged rogue, he can get a little bit more from pointblank shot and some magic items. Bards get buffs that they can share with the party and they have archetypes that focus on hitting.
Depending on the party set up I would recommend the monk taking gang up, but that's an investment of two feats and three stat points to get a +2 in flanking circumstances.
I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread. His ability to focus on two stats (Dex and either Int or Cha depending on what skills you're focusing on) allows him to pump his stats more, making it more likely you've got an 18 or higher in your primary hitting stat. A monk (especially in a 20 point buy or less game which covers PFS and a lot of other playstyles) will probably be looking at 15's in WIS, DEX, and STR, and he'll have to take a hit in one of his other stats just to get those 15's. He'll still need CON since he's looking at a 14 AC right now (16 if he dumps another stat and pumps either Dex or Wis and has a racial bonus), meaning he's just nudging up against the other melee characters AC's.
So you're looking at the rogue having a +1 - +2 lead to hit off stats. Count in the fact that the rogue can assign all of his ability increases to Dex and the fact that the monks Amulet of Mighty Fists is always going to be (until nearly 17th level), at best, +1 behind the other party members weapon bonuses, and our rogue is looking at a good +4 to hit over the monk, more if he uses his rogue talents to boost his combat capabilities and even more beyond that if he goes the ranged route (though this might impact his ability to trigger Sneak Attack.The Magus' shares most of the same advantages as the rogue, plus the ability to buff and apply temporary enchants to further boost his accuracy and damage.
And the bard rocks them all, by being as good a skill monkey as the rogue, having a fantastic spell list, and having some of the best party buffs (which he benefits from as well!) in the game.
The magus self-buffs, the bard everyone-buffs, only the rogue alone doesn't hit better than the monk (probably about as well on average), but when he hits it really counts with those sneak attack dice.
A Dex-based Rogue with weapon finesse and one (or even two) agile weapons can get a higher attack bonus than the monk, if only because he just needs Dex and Con. He still shouldn't dump the other stats, but 10 or 12 is more than enough for the rest.
MA
We didn't find much a monk can use. The party paladin just hauled in a nice suit of Celestial plate armour, the oracle a rod of splendour, the magus an scarab of protection, my monk got the booby price, a lantern of revealing.The scarab of protection would have been as nice for the monk as for the magus, so why did he get it? Especially as you seem to have been getting less than the others so far?
Actually, the lantern of revealing probably has been rather useful against that invisible devil, especially as the monk probably was the only one with a free hand to carry it during the fight without compromising his AC or giving up his flanking bonus?
Level 8 slow fall increases. Dead level.
I don't agree with most of them, but I will just pick this as it was the first jumping at me.
My monk is actually looking forward to that level (actually he is currently looking forward to level 6 :-). Why? One additional attack. More damage. Better AC. And better saves (remember: that's three better saves, not just one or two, so let's not forget that).And while rangers get improved evasion, too, they get it at 16th level. Meh. Most campaigns last that long.
etc. etc.
We didn't find much a monk can use. The party paladin just hauled in a nice suit of Celestial plate armour, the oracle a rod of splendour, the magus an scarab of protection, my monk got the booby prize, a lantern of revealing.The scarab of protection would have been as nice for the monk as for the magus, so why did he get it? Especially as you seem to have been getting less than the others so far?
Actually, the lantern of revealing probably has been rather useful against that invisible devil, especially as the monk probably was the only one with a free hand to carry it during the fight without compromising his AC or giving up his flanking bonus?
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really, or it would have been very handy. The reason the magus got the scarab is that we all got a boon a while back for this stage of the adventure: most took the option of an undead-bane effect on their major weapon; the oracle took ghost-touch armour instead, and I opted for resistance against death effects - which is why he got dibs on the scarab. That's OK though, as he's got Craft Wondrous Item, he's making my AoMF in the near future!
I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread.
Until you factor in the monk's effective full BAB on FoB, which does make a slight difference.
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Ssalarn wrote:
I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread.
Until you factor in the monk's effective full BAB on FoB, which does make a slight difference.
That's correct. A monk who has enemies polite enough to stand still for him so he can full attack will be back on par with the rogue (maybe even slightly ahead).
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That's correct. A monk who has enemies polite enough to stand still for him so he can full attack will be back on par with the rogue (maybe even slightly ahead).Ssalarn wrote:
I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread.
Until you factor in the monk's effective full BAB on FoB, which does make a slight difference.
Why wouldn't they? it's not like the monk's going to hit them <rimshot!>
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To be clear on what the perception I have is
Defensively the monk is good bordering on great. The d8 is a complete non-issue when you consider all of the other defensive advantages it gets.
Damage dealt when they hit is fine, as although it is below most other martial classes per hit, they can potentially stun on single attacks and flurry on multiple attacks. This brings them basically on low par with the other classes when they hit.
The problem is...they can't hit at the same rate as any other 3/4 or higher class.
Why
The Magus listed, in addition to the fact they they have spells that boost attack or attack against touch AC, also can buy weapons at less than half the price of an AOMF that doesn't take up a slot.
They can buy two weapons of the same attack and damage as an AOMF and still have money left over (as well as a slot)
And again, they can self buff with spells or just use spells that go after touch. So can Clerics and Druids. Hell an Inquisitor can self buff and use special abilities such as judgements and bane.
Rogues can't self buff, but they do much, much more damage with sneak attack. And they can focus completely on a single stat (dex) that adds to attack bonus.
So I hope they don't mess with the defense (it is fine)
And I hope they don't bump the damage up per hit (it is fine)
But they do need to bump the ability to hit.
How did I solve this problem? A new weapon for the Monk in my group. A weapon called "Fist Wraps" that did no damage but could be enchanted as a normal weapon with whatever enchantments he desired. The monk still count as unarmed, used his unarmed progression, etc etc. And then could add on different things to bypass different types of DR so he could "golf bag" with different fist wraps
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really
I had been afraid you would say that... :-)
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, reallyI had been afraid you would say that... :-)
Well for all the good he did in the fight, he could have searched for it, found it and used it while everyone else fought the devil and still contributed more.
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Well for all the good he did in the fight, he could have searched for it, found it and used it while everyone else fought the devil and still contributed more.Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, reallyI had been afraid you would say that... :-)
We had this happen once. We were fighting an ancient red dragon that the monk could not hit, but who also could not hit the monk with any of its attacks, so the monk spent his turns searching the dragon's horde for items that might help in the fight while using Improved Evasion to evade its breath weapon. As I recall, the monk eventually stumbled across a Holy Avenger he delivered to the paladin who finally managed to smite the dragon to death.
On the flip side though, the monk did actually use High Jump, Abundant Step, and Fast Movement to navigate the dragon's lair in his search for loot, and I believe he even used Slow Fall at one point to slide down from a niche in the wall that the dragon had tucked the sword into, so maybe that was a monk doing exactly what monks are supposed to do. If he'd been a few levels higher, he might have even been able to use Tongue of the Sun and Moon to ask the bats hanging from the ceiling for directions and saved some time running around.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fornication armor sounds fun..
LOL.
Darn it. That is why we need more time for edits.
Level 15 you get a death attack with a fortitude save. Too bad nearly everything you might want to kill with it has a high fort save and size bonus inflated constitution. Still, it's on a par with similar spells.I agree with all yuour points except maybe this one. It is true that it is hard to kill a standar monster but this ability works great against wizards,withcs,bards,rogues,ninjas,sorceres and oracles, so i think is slightly better taht you say. But still it does not compensate those levels of slow fall u.u
A class having weak base save does not translate to an actual weak save in the game. I can't speak for other GM's but I never ignore fort saves. That means my NPC casters will not be needing a roll above 10 to fail that save unless you used ability focus and put a lot of effort into boosting your wisdom score.
Well for all the good he did in the fight, he could have searched for it, found it and used it while everyone else fought the devil and still contributed more.Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, reallyI had been afraid you would say that... :-)
Hmm, if for some reason your monk would have known that such a thing existed in the devil's lair, then, yes, that would have been an appropriate (and important) job for a monk. Not every contribution to a fight is dealing damage.
I can't speak for other GM's but I never ignore fort saves. That means my NPC casters will not be needing a roll above 10 to fail that save unless you used ability focus and put a lot of effort into boosting your wisdom score.
(emphasis mine)
Shouldn't the saves of NPCs depend on their character/role instead?
I.e. the stereotypical bookish wizard, probably with a sickly health for spending all of his time indoors poring over books, would not have a good fort save, would he?
There are lots of other wizard types, of course, which indeed may have good or even great fort saves.
We had this happen once. We were fighting an ancient red dragon that the monk could not hit, but who also could not hit the monk with any of its attacks, so the monk spent his turns searching the dragon's horde for items that might help in the fight while using Improved Evasion to evade its breath weapon. As I recall, the monk eventually stumbled across a Holy Avenger he delivered to the paladin who finally managed to smite the dragon to death.
Hmm, if for some reason your monk would have known that such a thing existed in the devil's lair, then, yes, that would have been an appropriate (and important) job for a monk. Not every contribution to a fight is dealing damage.
The problem with this strategy is how does the monk recognise the item when he finds it? He doesn't have detect magic after all...so to him it's just a lantern, or a pretty sword...
I guess one question that needs asking is do monks use Power Attack? I'm not quite sure what ratio they're going to get out of it. If flurry is TWF they're going to get 1.5:1. If unarmed strikes never being off-hand means they always get a 2:1 they probably should. If monks are assumed to be power attacking to have decent damage that's where a lot of their accuracy deficit is coming from.
Power Attack is overrated; unless you are using a two-handed weapon it's an also-ran feat, because what you gain in damage you lose in hits. It only works well when your chances to hit are very good - currently, that isn't likely if you are a monk using unarmed strike.
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Can monks even use Power Attack with unarmed strikes? They're considered light weapons.
If getting their full Strength bonus on all unarmed strikes mean they can also Power Attack, or if the "not with light weapons" clause was dropped at some point, then I suppose it could work.
EDIT: Never mind, i re-read it. You just can't add 1.5xSTR by "holding it in both hands" because it's a light weapon. I can see why this isn't considered a priority for monks, except maybe as a prereq.
The 'not light weapon' prereq was dropped in Pathfinder.