Chung Po

Liam ap Thalwig's page

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Malignor wrote:
  • Recover all Ki in 1 hour of meditation, as many times per day equal to CON bonus. Ki is nowhere near as powerful as spellcasting, so let it be abundant.
  • Like that!

    Round 1: charge + punch
    Round 2:
    - standard action: grapple
    - move action: grapple check (with +5) to move/harm/pin opponent
    Round 3:
    - move action: grapple check (with +5) to maintain grapple and move/harm/pin opponent
    - standard action: if maintaining has been successful you can punch him (or someone else) etc. otherwise you can use the action for a second grapple check (with +5) to maintain grapple and move/harm/pin opponent
    Round 4: like Round 3 etc.

    You don't need Step Up to be able to flurry. If your opponent 5-foot-steps away you can do a 5-foot-step in your own round before the full attack (= flurry) action to close the gap.

    Great rulings! Thanks a lot!

    Looking forward to the other monk changes planned... :-)

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    Dabbler wrote:
    Yet a kama does 1d6/20/x2. Wouldn't 1d4/20/x4 be more interesting? And give you a reason to use one?

    Why should this be more interesting?? Let's look at the average damage (ignoring that threats have to be confirmed, which would lower the average damage of the suggested kama stats even further):

    Kama as written: (3.5x19 + 3.5x2) / 20 = 3,675
    Kama as suggested: (2.5x19 +2.5x4) / 20 = 2,875

    Factoring in damage bonuses, say +b, results in:
    Kama as written: (3.5+b)x21/20
    Kama as suggested: (2.5+b)x23/20

    Calculating the break even point for b:
    (3.5+b)x21 = (2.5+b)x23
    => 2 x b = 3.5 x 21 - 2.5 x 23 = 16
    => b = 8

    So, for a damage bonus (from strength or enchantments) of +8 or more the suggested kama is as good or better than the kama as written (again, not taking into account that threats have to be confirmed, raising the break even point for b even higher, depending on AC).

    Critical hits might become relevant for weapons with wide threat ranges when doubling them, for anything else, they are just irrelevant.

    So I'll gladly stick with the kama as written.

    Well, a monk is not just a fighter he is a spiritual fighter, so knowledge religion is very appropriate. Monks are certainly inspired by Shaolin monks and similar who were first and foremost monks in the pure spiritual/religious sense. The fighting techniques came later. Being monks living in monasteries with long history where knowledge is kept, makes Knowledge history another appropriate class skill.

    Of course there are more possible backgrounds for monks which do not include a monastic background, but then you are not forced to take the skill, but it's there for those that do choose a monastic or spiritual background.

    Perform is a very nice skill supplementing role playing in my opinion. Categories that come into mind are Perform (singing), Perform (kata), Perform (show combat) or Perform (Oratory) for reciting parables of the task of heroes of old. Think of the Chinese festivals where the dragon puppets are played by a number of people hidden in them where it is a great honor to do that and requires the appropriate skill to perform the ritualistic fake combats.

    Thanks! What do you think of the levels? Should it rather be 8/12 instead of 9/14?

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    IMHO the monk has an excellent skill selection fitting my view of a monk very well.

    Some thoughts on the perfecting body/soul stuff:

    Improving Str, Dex, Con, and Wis fits my picture of a monk very well.
    Improving Int or Cha does not, though, so I'd suggest to take those two out of the extra points gained.

    What do you think?

    Dabbler wrote:
    However, swift action economy means you only have one ability running per round. Hence more ki abilities means less benefit than might appear. While agree that less bookkeeping is good, it also means less functionality.

    That's where the following suggestion comes into play:

    Liam ap Thalwig wrote:

    At, say, 9th level, be able to activate two different swift ki powers as a single swift action, e.g. extra attack AND bonus to AC. The monk still needs to spend both ki points.

    At, say, 14th level, only pay 1 ki point for such a combo (or pay the most expensive power used if wholeness of body should become usable as a swift action).

    Might be lower levels (I did no evaluation yet which levels might be appropriate).

    @ciretose: To avoid dipping problems with Dabbler's Wis-to-hit, the bonus could be restricted to be no bigger than the number of monk levels the character has (similar to the Canny defense Int bonus of the Duelist).

    If Wis-to-hit is an alternative to Str then the monk might start out using Str and switch to Wis when he gets more experienced.

    Dabbler, great alternative to Ilja's idea!
    I like that it is much easier to use.

    Dabbler wrote:
    Now you see I hold the opposite point of view, the monk is supposed to be a spiritual warrior, so a mental stat is essential to represent this. I think it's use should be emphasised to reduce MAD rather than de-emphasised. After all, paladins are dependent on a mental stat, charisma, and it works for them.

    Yes, monks definitely are spiritual warriors. The non-spiritual warrior is represented by the Martial Artist archetype.

    But monks do not live from spirituality alone. Instead they strive to perfect their body and mind (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). So the physical attributes should not become meaningless either.
    But I don't think that Dabbler's changes put too much weight on Wis. IIRC Dabbler's monk can choose whether to use Str or Wis for his attack bonus. Otherwise this should be the way to go :-)

    master arminas wrote:
    Here is the entire list of 'minimal' suggestions I made.

    What I don't like about the 3.5 flurry is that the monk only gets one more attack than a fighter even at higher levels. It should be two more attacks IMHO from about level 8 on. CRB monk goes up to three more, but I think I could live with one less attack, if there are more attacks with highest attack bonus like the 3.5 flurry produces.

    I'd let monastic weapon training start at level 1. This would result in lifting the 3/4 BAB to exactly full BAB for just monk weapons, unarmed strikes and CMB. That's where it should be, I think.
    Contrary to the CRB this would work not only flurrying but for standard actions and AoO as well.

    What about the following flurry:
    3/4 BAB, the monk gets twice as many attacks as normal, i.e. starts with +0/+0, at level 8 gets +6/+6/+1/+1 etc. Additionally at levels 5, 11 and 18 he starts to get one of the two upcoming iterative attacks starting at -2. If someone can put that second rule into nice clear words I'd be grateful :-)
    I'd drop the -2 penalty altogether as this makes the progression simpler. The result is quite similar to the CRB flurry, except it is based on 3/4 BAB. Add in the modified monastic training from above to effectively get full BAB for monkish attacks (except qualifying for feats etc.).

    3/4 BAB Flurry with Monastic Weapon Training:

    1st: +0/+0 (monastic training: +1)
    2nd: +1/+1
    3rd: +2/+2
    4th: +3/+3
    5th: +3/+3/-2 (monastic training: +2)
    6th: +4/+4/-1
    7th: +5/+5/+0
    8th: +6/+6/+1/+1
    9th: +6/+6/+1/+1 (monastic training: +3)
    10th: +7/+7/+2/+2
    11th: +8/+8/+3/+3/-2
    12th: +9/+9/+4/+4/-1
    13th: +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (monastic training: +4)
    14th: +10/+10/+5/+5/+0
    15th: +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1
    16th: +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2
    17th: +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 (monastic training: +5)
    18th: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3/-2
    19th: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1
    20th: +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0

    BAB from other classes should just increase the attack values for flurry but not add additional attacks.

    Dabbler wrote:

    I hear what you say about dump-stating, but that happens with monks anyway - currently most effective monk builds are just about able to grunt "Monk smash!" with their charisma and intelligence values dropped to the minimum.

    I like the idea of the monk achieving physical perfection, but I don't see how to do it easily...and without other classes dipping the monk for bonus stats.

    I don't think that the training pool idea is very attractive for dipping. The pool might even start at level 2 or 3 to discourage dipping.

    Ilja wrote:
    Disciple of Perfection (Ex)

    That's a very nice idea, Ilja!

    Very monkish and making it an increased point buy is a great idea to get it balanced!

    The first mercy should be gained at 5th level together with Wholeness of Body and then one mercy every 2 levels (to make up for the late start).

    I would probably drop shaken and frightened because they do no fit Wholeness of the Body well.
    Dazed etc. are ok, though.

    Furthermore I would drop poisoned because of the monk being immune to poison anyway.

    Diseased might dropped as well because of Purity of Body. On the other hand it might be kept, dropping Purity of Body instead.

    Cursed is a corner case (not body related in general) but fits a monk fine, so I'd keep it.

    All those changes would make it distinct from Lay on Hands, though, so there would be nothing gained anymore from referring to Lay on Hands... :-)

    Dabbler wrote:

    Now, about wholeness of body...I originally thought it would be useful if you could use it as a swift action, then I realised than it I was in a combat and taking hits I'd much rather not take damage in the first place than heal the damage I had taken. Hence the AC boost is where I would spend my ki 90% of the time rather than healing up - unless it was a lot more powerful than it is.

    Good point. On another thread you suggested to change it to fast healing for that reason which is another good idea, although it would break the concept of ki powers having a duration of at most 1 round (thereby eliminating bookkeeping).

    Dabbler wrote:

    Then I considered another theme the monk is supposed to have: Independence. What if instead wholeness of body could heal not just hit points, but also lost ability points, negative levels, and other effects? That would make it much more useful, and it would also make the monk a lot more independent of the party.

    Perhaps scale it like this:
    5th level: Wholeness of Body, heal hit points & alleviate minor conditions (fatigued, dazzled, bleeding etc.)
    7th level: Heal lost ability points at 1 ki = 1 point
    9th level: Heal major conditions - blinded, deafened, exhausted. 3 points per condition.
    11th level: Heal negative levels, 5 points per negative level.
    13th level: Throw off curses and similar supernatural effects.
    15th level: restore lost ability points and major problems much as regenerate.

    I like that! Actually I'm a big fan of the independence theme of the monk.

    Did you mean restoration instead of regenerate at 15th level? Restoration already has the precedent of being available for the Qinggong monk: 2 ki points, self only, available at 8th level, i.e. even much earlier than your suggestion.

    While I like Dabbler's suggestion I think having real SR where magic just rolls off the monk is thematically nicer.

    Being able to be healed when unconscious should be possible, though, so why not just let the monk's SR only work against hostile magic?

    And I'd add a swift ki action to increase SR by 4 for 1 round at the cost of 1 ki point.

    Some additional thoughts on Dabbler's suggestion:
    Getting rewards for MAD is nice, but then you would get the reward only very late in the game in this case (lvl 13), so this would be much weaker than the paladin's bonus which is based on his primary attribute. The monk might get something like +3/+1/+0 or even less which is not much (especially as he is already immune to poison).
    So if going the paladin's route I'd suggest to double the saving throw bonuses from Con, Dex and Wis instead.

    Just realized something in another thread about ki powers that I'd like to mention here as well:
    the 1 round duration of ki powers (instead of having them last for several rounds or minutes) has the key advantage of requiring no bookkeeping at all. Just choose your power, deduct its cost and you are done. No counting of remaining rounds for enhancement, AC, speed whatever. Simple.

    That's why I like the 1 round duration.

    shallowsoul wrote:
    [...Ideas about ki powers lasting several rounds...]

    While other classes have powers that last for several rounds or minutes, there is one thing I actually like about ki powers having only a 1 round duration: no bookkeeping required

    You just decide what power to use this round and deduct the ki point(s) to power it. No counting of remaining rounds for each of the many ki powers you might have active at any one time.

    To improve cost and swift action economy I would
    - increase the number of ki points to monk level + Wis modifier (and Extra Ki would give +4 ki points).
    - allow activating two powers with one swift action at, say, 8th level (similar to a Master of many styles activating several style feats at once with one swift action)
    - allow to do that at the cost of the most expensive ki power being activated at, say, 12th level
    - add more ki powers thereby increasing flexibility

    (see this thread for some ideas being tossed around)

    - fix the hitting problem (unarmed strike, monk weapons and CMB)
    - add more options for ki (e.g. for overcoming DR etc.; I created a thread for that not long ago; it contains ideas to improve the swift action economy as well)
    - probably increase size of ki pool
    - fix Wholeness of Body (swift action; cheaper or heal more)
    - fix Abundant step (to include Dimensional Agility)
    - probably fix Diamond Soul (to only apply to hostile magic)
    - maybe make the extra move when using ki a swift action

    Kamelguru wrote:
    PCs generally have a higher survival rate, lest the GM actively metagames so hard that everyone red-pill completely. This can be stuff like auto-surprise, concentrated fire on a single party member because the enemies magically know it is the priority target, etc.

    Why is concentrating fire on a single opponent member considered metagaming if the GM does it and good tactics if the PCs do it?

    And concentrating fire is not even necessary because the argument was that a PC should be able to take down an enemy of CR=APL every round (without help).

    Kamelguru wrote:
    Also, the PCs generally have higher AC than most CR=APL creatures can hit on a 10, meaning that there needs to be some seriously good rolls (or fudging) involved for a PC to go down in the first round.

    A PC of level X has a CR of X due to PC wealth (see [url=""]). So an opponent with CR=APL+1 is equal to a PC one level higher than the APL. The claim was that a PC can take down an enemy every round that is his CR or even a few higher. So taking down a PC every round that is a CR below him should be even easier!

    If PCs have higher AC than CR=APL creatures then either they do not have CR (i.e. something is wrong with their builds) or the creature is not played to its CR (treating it like a fighter and ignoring its special features).

    Kamelguru wrote:
    I have never done it to a PC, on principle. [i.e. killing a PC in one round]

    Actually that is metagaming, not the other way round. To avoid misunderstandings: IMHO metagaming in favor of the PCs is often good and necessary (as long as it is not overdone). But we should not confuse which actions are metagaming and which actions are not.

    So, my argument still stands: Given the claim that a PC should be able to take down an enemy every round that is his CR or even a few higher, a creature of CR=APL should be able to take down a PC each round as well.

    Dragonamedrake wrote:
    He can usually take down an enemy every round that is his CR or even a few higher. And thats from first level till 20th. Same goes for most archers so thats...

    Let me turn that argument around: so an opponent with CR=APL+1 is able to take out one party member per round. Seems like fights should be short indeed - with an equal chance of the party being dead after those 3 rounds as the other way round. And getting killed that fast with practically no time to react is not fun IMHO.

    If it doesn't work this way, why should it work the other way around (i.e. for the party)?

    I always hated level 1 in (A)D&D when your character could die within one round by an (un)lucky blow. This got better when leveling up (with the exception of certain magics of course, like finger of death - which would just add to the feeling that magic was something powerful and dangerous, though).
    If being able to be killed that fast should be the norm for higher levels as well in Pathfinder, I'd be quite disappointed and regard this as a serious flaw of the rules.

    Neo2151 wrote:

    Here's the thing about Cold Iron and Alchemical Silver: They're cheap.

    • +1 Holy Greatsword - Here is your main weapon.

    • MW Cold Iron Greatsword - Here is your cold-iron back up weapon.

    • MW Alchemical Silver Greatsword - Ditto everything I said about the Cold Iron version above.

    I'm just envisioning that character with his three greatswords strapped to his back...

    Carrying a greatsword on the back and maybe a mace and a dagger on the belt is fine, but three

    Thanks for the detailed writeup AD!

    Adamantine Dragon wrote:

    Round 1

    - Sorcerer would win initiative and blast a fireball at the enemy.

    - Druid would summon a pouncing lion/tiger which could attack in the first round due to archetype.

    - Cleric would self-buff with defensive spell and move into position to block the enemy attack

    - Barbarian would charge the nearest bad guy and rage-smash with two handed hammer. Usually the same target the lion had pounced.

    Your description sounds like (almost) all party members usually won initiative: cleric is able to move into position; barbarian is able to choose target

    Adamantine Dragon wrote:

    Round 2

    - Barbarian would full-attack smash, usually taking down the first (and theoretically most dangerous) target.

    So, the barbarian was not only able to choose his target but also to actually choose the most dangerous one and reach it (i.e. in charge range with no intervening hindrances like other people)?

    Actually my question was meant rhetorically :-)

    All sound advice that you are giving, Adamantine Dragon, and it certainly is very nice once in a while if the fight just works out as planned.
    But I'm thinking of the fights which do not work out as planned, because scouting ahead was not able to give all informations, like levels of the enemies, spells known by the enemies, additional enemies too far away to scout safely but near enough to appear in the fight, every single enemy present at the location where the fight is supposed to happen, magic items present or other stuff like traps, etc. not to mention the difficulty of predicting how the enemies are really going to react to your attack.

    Very long fights can get boring, agreed.
    But fights that last only 3 rounds are even more boring. Occasionally they are nice and exhilarating but if the would be the norm I would find that very boring. Where's the tactics in 3 rounds??

    master arminas wrote:
    Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
    Rolling a natural 20 is the problem.

    Sure, but landing a successful stunning fist isn't already? Look at it like this: if you are a 4th level monk, you get two attacks, with a possible third by spending 1 point of ki. Each of those attacks has the possibility of rolling a critical threat: a natural 20. With his greater number of attacks, a monk is more likely to roll at least one natural 20 each session.

    Stunning fist: p_hit * p_save => stunned

    Stunning strike: approx. n * 0.05 * p_hit => at least staggered (n = number of attacks; the probability is an approximation for small n and is worse if calculated correctly, but it is easier to compare with)

    Therefore for p_save > 0.05 * n Stunning fist is better than Stunning strike.

    For n = 2 (monk level 4) this means that even if the opponent has a fortitude save of 3+, i.e. is failing only in one of ten cases, Stunning fist is at least as good as Stunning strike in producing a result (stun or staggering).

    The picture would improve if a monk's unarmed strike would have a threat range of 19-20 but I'm not sure if it would be enough. Not requiring to confirm would help more but feel bad.

    Rolling a natural 20 is the problem.

    What I like:
    - the simplicity
    - being staggered if the save was successful

    What I don't like:
    - criticals for unarmed attacks have too low odds to be relevant (that's a show stopper)
    - dropping the special conditions available at later levels

    Not sure yet, whether I like it:
    - basing the DC on 10 + BAB

    Maybe if monks would get a threat on 19-20 (while still being able to double that range with the appropriate feat) it might become viable.

    master arminas wrote:
    ciretose wrote:
    A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

    That is presuming no feats and a base Constitution of 10. It is also an 'easy' encounter. It is more likely to be facing off against a 12th-14th level wizard, being a 10th level monk as part of a party. That puts the base save at either +4 or +5 (+9 or +10 with a Cloak of Resistance +5). Even a 14 Con (and really would you NOT have at least a 14 Con as a wizard? I would not.) puts you at +11 or +12. Great fortitude makes that a +13 or +14, while Improved Great Fortitude lets you reroll 1 failure a day.

    The fort save of a 14th level wizard is +4, not +5. Giving him a +5 Cloak of resistance (which would require 13.5 % of his WBL, so actually I'd rather expect a +4 cloak) he'd have a save of +9. A 14 Con might indeed be likely, so we are looking at +11.

    Now, Great fortitude is quite unlikely IMHO. Why? A wizard does not have many feats (10 if he is human) and as a wizard I'd rather take feats like Improved initiative, Spell focus, Greater Spell focus, Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, Metamagic feats and possibly Item creation feats, i.e. feats centering on improving my magic abilities.

    So we have a +11 vs. 20 which means a 40% success rate for stunning fist. Quite good, I'd say.

    True, you have to find him, hit him etc. But other characters have to do the same, so there is no special disadvantage for being a monk.

    With regards to the red dragon example: Ciretose explicitly talked about taking out wizards with stunning fist because of their bad fortitude save. Yes, stunning fist is no silver bullet and that is great. Silver bullets are boring.

    master arminas wrote:
    push the ki pool back to 5th level. Hold on, wait and let me finish. With ki strike, as long as the monk has at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool, his unarmed strike gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. At 8th, 11th, 14th, and 16th level, this enhancement bonus would increase by +1.

    No need to push the ki pool back to 5th level. Just decouple the introduction of ki strike from the introduction of the ki pool.

    Dabbler wrote:
    Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
    Dimensional Agility should be built right into Abundant Step.
    It should have been, but now it's out as a feat, and changing it now breaks the point of the feat. The feat and it's tree should be monk bonus feats, though. At least then you could take the feat at 10th and get some use out of it when you get Abundant Step at 12th, before the campaign ends.

    The feat still has a point for use with the spell, especially as Abundant step already is better than the spell (being a move action which can be used after a standard action) and therefore gains less from the feat than the spell in a sense.

    I'm not fond of having to pay a feat tax to make Abundant step work like expected ("move action").

    Just let the monk gain Abundant step together with Dimensional Agility at 12th level if you don't want to reword Abundant step and the feat.

    Dabbler wrote:
    Allow Wholeness of Body to do something useful - like restore lost ability score points, negative levels, or such. Or change the focus so it can act as DR, maybe, or fast healing for a minute

    I like these ideas!

    Dabbler wrote:
    Make Dimensional Agility and it's tree be monk bonus feats so Abundant Step is actually useful...

    Dimensional Agility should be built right into Abundant Step.

    He he, didn't remember that part of the series.

    Ragnarok Aeon wrote:

    Monk fast speed never made sense to me for why a monk should have it, it could easily be given up for a way to enhance a monk's unarmed attacks using their ki ability.

    Maybe give up some of the other random stuff like high jump (just because we call them grasshopper they should jump like grasshoppers!?) to give the monk some sort of DR to represent their "perfection of body" that increased with level and could easily be explained again with their ki magic.

    I'm a big fan of the monk's fast speed and support Dabbler's suggestion of making the 20' move for 1 ki a a swift action.

    High jumping is another favorite of mine. While I don't understand the grasshopper thing you mentioned the high jumping most certainly has its roots in chinese Wu Xia folklore.

    Giving the monk DR (maybe coupled to expenditure of ki) makes perfect sense for me.

    Tels wrote:

    Wizards, for example, often know lots of things about the world. They have readied access to libraries, for the most part, and all knowledge skills are class skills. More often than naught, the player doesn't realize the GM intends to use Psionics, so he has no idea about Knowledge (Psionics) at all. Then comes the BBEG Psion and he has no idea what's going on.

    Like you said, wizards have access to all knowledge skills including Knowledge (Psionics). If they don't take one of these skills, they know nothing about these things. If the wizard has no ranks in Knowledge (religion) and wants to know something about an undead he encounters he cannot say, "hey I'm a wizard and I'm supposed to know things, so I'm just rolling against Knowledge (arcana), ok?". I don't see why this should be different with psionics.

    Why hadn't he heard of [psionics] before? How had he never encountered it? Did all of reality suddenly just change around him? Or did his GM just screw him over because he bought a new book?

    If the GM just bought a new book he has to put a bit of work into integrating its contents into existing campaigns. So, psionics might indeed be hitherto unknown, maybe because only underground folks or folks from beyond the sea or the mountains know and use it and the BBEG Psion is the first of an expedition force into the known lands. So these strange powers come as a real surprise and the wizard suddenly realizes that there is something new to learn. Something unheard of! What an opportunity for a sage!

    If the GM just slaps psionics onto the campaign and Psions are popping up here and there with now story behind them, just because the GM bought a new book, then, well, yes, he did screw his player. But this should not be taken care of by rules badly mixing things together which are clearly different. Otherwise, what's the point of introducing psionics if it's just magic in a rules disguise?

    Not wanting to derail the thread further, I'd suggest to move further discussion of this topic (if any) into a new thread.

    wraithstrike wrote:
    Grimmy wrote:
    Area 9-5 Leucrotta Caves wrote:


    Tactics: These beasts hit and run, avoiding heavily armored opponents until all others have been dealt with.

    It didn't stop there. On every page I found waves of indiscriminately attacking mindless undead, vermin, traps and environmental hazards that force saves.

    I'm not saying monk is the best class to take into Rappan Athuk, but this can't be the only adventure where he is getting targeted.

    If the entire dungeon is like that, then it is one of the few with primarily mindless opponents.

    I am not yelling when I am bolding. I am only trying to emphasize a point. :)

    Leucrotta are "intelligent and cruel" according to their description and they have Int 11, so they are far from mindless (actually more intelligent than many PCs who use Int as a dump stat... :-).

    Avoiding heavily armored opponents seems to be an intelligent decision as well.

    Mindless undead on the other hand are mindless indeed :-)

    Tels wrote:
    Then you run into Psionic Items which could only be identified by Psionic skills. A 30th level Caster with +70 in Spellcraft, would never be able to identify a Psionic item with a DC of 5, because it had to be a trained skill, and you had to have Knowledge Psionics and Psicraft.

    Why should a 30th level caster with +70 in Spellcraft be able to identify a Psionic item? It's not magic, it works on completely different principles, it requires to be activated mentally, so him not being able to identify it is just what I would expect.

    Same for Spell Resistance and Psionic Resistance. Makes sense to keep them separate. For "old" creatures I would use a default of giving them Psionic Resistance equal to their Spell Resistance, though, because the resistance in general does not reflect special knowledge of the creature but is there to make the creature more dangerous.

    IMHO Dark Sun (and probably other campaigns) would lose much of its atmosphere if psionics where just magic with other rules mechanics.

    Tels wrote:
    In the even people who want to keep Psionics and Magic different, you use Knowledge Psionics and Psicraft, in the event you don't, you use Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft.

    Makes sense :-)

    Tels wrote:

    Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft were added because the Monk is a manifester. They use those two skills to identify psionic effects and items.

    Remember, the Monk isn't just a martial artist anymore, he's also a caster/manifester with up to 6 spell/power levels.

    If you haven't read Psionics Unleashed by Dreamscarred Press, you may be a little confused on some of the abilities.

    Ah, thanks. I did read it once but as I haven't used it yet, I'm not firm with the details. Certainly I didn't expect manifesters to use the same skills as casters. Especially because Knowledge (psionics) was added to his list which made perfectly sense and I would expect that and not Knowledge (arcana) to be used to identify psionic effects and items. Instead of Spellcraft I probably would expect something called Psicraft. I find it rather strange if a manifester can identify spells being cast (and vice versa) as manifesting and casting are completely different in my opinion.

    (Just looked it up and indeed Psicraft and Use Psionic Device did exist formerly but were dropped in Psionics Unleashed which I consider a bad and unnecessary choice, but so be it).

    Tels wrote:
    Liam ap Thalwig wrote:

    "ki strike: ... The monk's unarmed strike is considered to be a +2 weapon at 4th level, ..."

    That strikes me as a bit high. Shouldn't it start with being considered as a +1 weapon and progress from there?

    Reread that section. The bit you quoted was for use in the Alvena campaign setting that Ashiel has been building.

    Actually I saw that, but the thing I overlooked is that the monk's unarmed strikes are supposed to count as magic at level 1 already.

    That clears up my misunderstanding with regards to having a jump to +2 at level 4 but I still think that this is a bit early. Maybe magic at level 3 (or maybe 2), and for Alvena: +2 at 6th, +3 at 9th, +4 at 12th, +5 at 15th and +6 at 18th or something like that. Just a thought, nothing too important.

    Class skills:

    I would drop Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft from the list of class skills. While monks are wise and knowledgeable I don't think they should be knowledgeable in the arcane in general. The arcane should stay so except for its students :-)

    Furthermore I'd even drop Ride as I'm always imagining (generic) monks to rather walk than ride. Archetypes like the Sohei should add Ride back in, of course.

    Maybe add Diplomacy to the list, reflecting the wisdom and serenity of a monk.

    "ki strike: ... The monk's unarmed strike is considered to be a +2 weapon at 4th level, ..."

    That strikes me as a bit high. Shouldn't it start with being considered as a +1 weapon and progress from there?

    "Monk training: ... The monk applies this bonus to hit to combat maneuvers preformed while unarmed ..."

    The monk should also apply the bonus to damage to damage dealt by combat maneuvers (grapple) performed while unarmed.

    "ki strike: ... At 8th level, your unarmed strikes are treated as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. ... At 16th level, your unarmed strikes ignore hardness of less than 20. ..."

    I would prefer a more gradual approach to ignoring hardness instead of jumping from zero to 20.
    E.g. ignore 2 points of hardness per level over 8th.


    So far, the only thing I'm missing are the extra stunning fist conditions the core monk gained.

    Dabbler wrote:
    Atarlost wrote:
    A clean monk fix (reasonable pricing for AMF) would help druids, but wisdom to attack for a one level dip that also gets it to AC is a bit too much of an assist.
    The other option would be Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers for free, and that makes monk a great 1-level dip for rogues.

    To discourage dipping just introduce such features at higher levels and/or couple them to ki and/or restrict them like the duelists bonus to half monk levels.

    SoulGambit0 wrote:
    [ ...Halfling Underfoot Adept throwing net at huge demon... ]

    While nets are a nice weapon (although I'm not envisioning them in the hands of a monk - more likely in the hands of a gladiator - but that's just me), unfortunately they are only effective against max 1 size category difference, so the halfling may net only medium, small or tiny creatures but not huge demons.

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