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I do admit that I do have a problem with a paladin's smite evil bypassing all DR. I means sure I can see it bypassing all energy and alignment DR (maybe even materials like silver and cold iron), but a longsword bypassing bludgeoning DR is not something I am comfortable with.
But what about Smite Evil vs Epic DR? That just seems massively broken to me. A 1st level paladin can bypass the DR of a CR 21 Mu Spore or Thanatotic Titan. That's just CRAZY, IMHO. I'm totally fine with a mythic paladin 1 bypassing epic DR, but just a straight basic, run of the mill paladin? That just seem an endless amount of broken to me.
So rules experts and those that wrote the game, please share your thoughts.
A level 1 paladin bypassing DR against CR 20+ monsters doesn't matter if you still have to contend with its armor class.
It's too much... the smite should EITHER bypass all DR, but not add massive amounts (+1/+2 per level) to damage dealt, OR it should give the damage boost as is, but without overcoming DR. Now it's just triple or quadruple (or whatever) damage.
Makes the DPR fans worldwide rejoyce I guess :-)
A level 1 paladin bypassing DR against CR 20+ monsters doesn't matter if you still have to contend with its armor class.
This is important because of mythic rules. If a mythic item gives epic DR but the base armor class is still reasonable for a level 1 paladin to hit, a paladin can really make an mythic character into nothing, fast.
Here was James' response to the question of epic DR...this was before mention of the Mythic rules though.
A level 1 paladin bypassing DR against CR 20+ monsters doesn't matter if you still have to contend with its armor class.This is important because of mythic rules. If a mythic item gives epic DR but the base armor class is still reasonable for a level 1 paladin to hit, a paladin can really make an mythic character into nothing, fast.
Who's getting the mythic item, a random weak enemy? Why put that item in that situation? The paladin at level 1 has only 1 attack with low hp, and DR isn't the only thing that makes a monster powerful.
Here was James' response to the question of epic DR...this was before mention of the Mythic rules though.
That's just his house rule, though.
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If James' answer, 'Nope! Not in my games.', was posted anonymously on this thread we wouldn't think it was helpful. Posts quoting rules are the ones that sway opinions.
Given the weird list James was answering at the time, I don't blame him for not providing a rules heavy answer. : )
So, RAW, the paladin's Smite Evil let's him bypass the DR of his (evil) target. Nowhere in this ability's description does it give exceptions.
The descriptions in the Damage Reduction section say nothing about interacting with Smite Evil in any special way.
Unless and until a rule IS found which says otherwise, then it's allowed!
As for game balance, I cannot believe that CR 21 beastie will have a problem with even a min/maxed first level paladin.
'Go on then! Attack me with your one attack at +12 and try to do your 2d6+9 damage! Oh, no! You've critted me and rolled max damage, now I've got 42 fewer hit points because you bypassed my DR! I'll have to wait until my turn to regenerate 40 and then make do with only 523 hit points!' - Last words of the Tarrasque before it died laughing.
Anyway, why are 1st lvl PCs fighting CR21 monsters in YOUR game?
As for how the paladin can do this; how can a 1st lvl creature defeat such high powered abilities? He doesn't, his GOD does, and the power of his god flowing through both him and his weapon is all the Fluff you need to understand this in game. We've dealt with the Crunch already.
Happy Smiting!
Who's getting the mythic item, a random weak enemy? Why put that item in that situation? The paladin at level 1 has only 1 attack with low hp, and DR isn't the only thing that makes a monster powerful.
The immediate question is about my home game. I'm going to be using something close to the mask of death from the adventure based on The Gamer's Dorkness Rising movie (which should basically be a mythic artifact if there ever was one). My players are 10th level. And the paladin player max-cheeses his character out (he literally has like 1 or 2 levels of paladin just so his attacks will go through EVERY bit of DR).
Giving the campaign's final boss the mask of death-ish item adds DR epic (according to the adventure). For the final boss, I want them to have to work for it and frankly, I don't think a paladin's smite should be as good as it is. So, I'm asking about if the paladin's smite should work on epic DR.
By the RAW rules, yes, Smite Evil bypasses epic DR.
Personally, I houseruled things in my games by saying that Smite Evil just makes a weapon count as Magic, Good and Lawful.
By the RAW rules, yes, Smite Evil bypasses epic DR.
I know the RAW. It is, IMO, massively broken. That is why I am asking for a ruling.
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I've always houseruled it the same way as James. I don't allow Smite to bypass Epic, Untyped, or those weirdly specific ones (Jabberwock, I'm looking at you).
As for game balance, I cannot believe that CR 21 beastie will have a problem with even a min/maxed first level paladin. . .
. . . Anyway, why are 1st lvl PCs fighting CR21 monsters in YOUR game?
As for how the paladin can do this; how can a 1st lvl creature defeat such high powered abilities? He doesn't, his GOD does, and the power of his god flowing through both him and his weapon is all the Fluff you need to understand this in game. We've dealt with the Crunch already.
Um, you did notice the part where it's mentioned that this has now become important due to Mythic rules, right? It has nothing to do with CR 21+ creatures.
There is going to be potential in the new ruleset for low-level entities (creatures and NPCs) to gain Epic DR, either from Artifacts or Mythic Path Tiers. If an equally low-level (but non-Mythic) character can then just walk up, Smite it, shrug his shoulders when it hits the ground, and then move on - that's a problem.
Edit: Granted, the Epic DR thing is still mostly a theory as it relates to Mythic rules. We'll know for sure once the playtest is released but there's a good chance for it.
By the RAW rules, yes, Smite Evil bypasses epic DR.I know the RAW. It is, IMO, massively broken. That is why I am asking for a ruling.
That's why I linked James' short comment on it above. He also went into a little more detail about his answer later on in his Q&A thread IIRC, but that's what I found quickly. Personally, James' take on his home games is generally more than enough for me for mine, as I do think he's got a lot of common sense in regards to how rules SHOULD interact, even if it's not strict RAW.
I haven't seen any other developer or designer comment on the boards about it.
That's why I linked James' short comment on it above.
Whoops, I appear to have missed your post. Thank you.
If your munckin paladin only has 1-2 levels in paladin he can only smite once per day. So if you don't want to house rule the paladin smite doesn't by pass epic DR, just drop something in right before the BBEG, or as part of the BBEG fight, that gets him to burn his smite on something that seems more threatening than the BBEG.
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Who's getting the mythic item, a random weak enemy? Why put that item in that situation? The paladin at level 1 has only 1 attack with low hp, and DR isn't the only thing that makes a monster powerful.The immediate question is about my home game. I'm going to be using something close to the mask of death from the adventure based on The Gamer's Dorkness Rising movie (which should basically be a mythic artifact if there ever was one). My players are 10th level. And the paladin player max-cheeses his character out (he literally has like 1 or 2 levels of paladin just so his attacks will go through EVERY bit of DR).
Giving the campaign's final boss the mask of death-ish item adds DR epic (according to the adventure). For the final boss, I want them to have to work for it and frankly, I don't think a paladin's smite should be as good as it is. So, I'm asking about if the paladin's smite should work on epic DR.
Dale remember the lesson from Dorkness Rising... sometimes the BBEG can do something that breaks the normal rules like taking away clerics connection to his god in the series, or in this case ignoring a paladins Smite ability.
--Vrock the Casbah
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My players are 10th level. And the paladin player max-cheeses his character out (he literally has like 1 or 2 levels of paladin just so his attacks will go through EVERY bit of DR).
Remember, he only goes through all DR if the target is evil. If not, then the smite fails (and is wasted).
Someone used the Tarrasque earlier as an example, and it should be pointed out that the Tarrasque is neutral, and thus cannot be smited by a normal paladin.
A paladin is designed to take out evil. If everything in the campaign that your characters are against is evil, then they will shine.
Make him burn his resource, throw some monster with a high DR that he smites and he burns through his one smite a day. Good Times.
I think it is more an issue of immersion than power. A level 1 paladin bypassing the DR of some demon lord is hard for some people to accept. I know he needs a nat 20 to hit the demon lord, but still....
I am hoping the mythic rules will cover this though.
I have trouble seeing how bypassing DR is overpowered. You guys know that weapons do that on their own, right?
Actually, the type of DR which is discussed in this thread, DR/- and DR/epic, is not exactly something that is easily bypassed by weapons.
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My players are 10th level. And the paladin player max-cheeses his character out (he literally has like 1 or 2 levels of paladin just so his attacks will go through EVERY bit of DR).
Remember, he only goes through all DR if the target is evil. If not, then the smite fails (and is wasted).
Someone used the Tarrasque earlier as an example, and it should be pointed out that the Tarrasque is neutral, and thus cannot be smited by a normal paladin.
Good point, well made! Sorry about the poor choice of example monster; I just grabbed the Bestiary and quickly chose the hardest thing in it to make my point. : )
I'll have to be more careful next time!