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@William Senn
You missed a few. Don't just check the movement options, a few have their method of flight outside of that space (The Boruta for example). Also didn't note burrowers and swimers that are even worse for fighters.
Boruta isn't in the Bestiary 1, so no, I didn't miss it, thanks very much. EDIT: Actually, there's no monster called a "Boruta" in any of the three Bestiaries, so I havn't the foggiest what you're talking about there. I did scan for combat flight via default spells and included everything I saw, but I'm not discounting missing the occasional instance.
Burrowers are a total and complete ***** for every single character class to fight. No class gets all of: a burrow speed, a way to see through solid ground, and a way to attack through solid ground. Not a single one of them.
Swimmers are actually very easy for melee Fighters. Very nearly every (caveat: non-dragon, again) swimmer is pure melee. In fact, it's archers who have the problems underwater because bows just simply do not work. Crossbows do, but they don't do as much damage and require more feats, so you don't see too many crossbow Fighters.
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"No class gets all of: a burrow speed, a way to see through solid ground, and a way to attack through solid ground. Not a single one of them." Wizard, Cleric, Durid, Sorcerer, Oracle.
Please tell me how Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Oracles gain the ability to ignore line of effect for their spells.
Schodringer full-spellcasters.I said SRD. The percent goes WAY up.
"No class gets all of: a burrow speed, a way to see through solid ground, and a way to attack through solid ground. Not a single one of them." Wizard, Cleric, Durid, Sorcerer, Oracle.
You also know what is a great counter to burrowers? Ability to not be on the ground waiting for them to eat you.
I tried building one of those once. I ended up giving them quick study so that they could literally pop up an Emergency Force Sphere mid-combat and change their spell selections on the fly.
...The trick got used exactly once.
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I said SRD. The percent goes WAY up.
There is no Boruta in the SRD*, either. I just checked. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that every monster in the 3.5 SRD is also in the PRD. Regardless, *I* specifically said the Bestiary I.
* - this isn't the actual text document that you download off of WotC's website (if you can even do that anymore) but it contains all of that data plus OGL stuff from other WotC books, so it's even more inclusive than WotC's SRD.
What is it that you feel that so desperately needs to be added to the fighter class so that by your standards it does not "suck"?
No polemics, no arguments, just put it down right now on the table what you would have the Paizo crew do.
Or if you'd rather continue whining, just ignore this post.
You know what I would have the Paizo crew do? Give us some more mundane options to solve problems, and fix many of the mundane options that are already in place.
Make traps, crafting, and profession rules not completely useless to mundane characters. For instance, how awesome would it be if we had rules that would let a Fighter instruct some villagers with Profession: Soldier to give them a +2 competence bonus to AC and attack rolls in the next battle?
And you know what? In the particular instance of dealing with flying creatures, I don't need my Fighters to automatically get the innate ability to fly. But where the hell are the options that fictional fighters always seem to have access to?
Like:
-Targeting the wings of a creature to keep it from flying? Does not exist in the rules.
-Grabbing/jumping onto flying creatures and attacking them while riding them? Covered poorly by grapple rules, and even then only situationally.
-Ready an action to attack something that attacks you with reach? Requires a certain level, a feat, and is still sub-par.
So, I don't need or even want Fighters to fly. I want rules for interesting and useful options that permit Fighters to deal with flight.
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Transmute Mud to Rock is a save or die on a burrower without earth glide, and even if it beats the reflex check, the area it creates is safe from burrowers. That's just the most obvious. Obsidian Flow is another option to create a "safe" spot.
As a general rule, this is false. There is no rule that says non-earth gliding creatures cannot burrow through solid stone (at least, not one that shows up with a search of either the core rulebook PDF or bestiary 1 PDF). In fact, bulettes and purple worms specifically make reference to moving through stone.
Earth Glide's primary utility is its tracelessness, not extra mobility.
Well there goes my plan for winning this thread.
@deuxhero - I haven't read all the posts but have you considered getting your fighter a bow? For a minimal feat investment (deadly aim and fighters get tons of feats) you can be reasonably effective at range in almost any situation.
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Well there goes my plan for winning this thread.
@deuxhero - I haven't read all the posts but have you considered getting your fighter a bow? For a minimal feat investment (deadly aim and fighters get tons of feats) you can be reasonably effective at range in almost any situation.
Fighters are not permitted to use ranged weapons of any type. They are also not allowed to use racial abilities or magic items of any type. They are not permitted to have friends and allies help them in any way. They are not permitted to use any feats or options not explicitly stated as a class ability which means they can't use any non-combat feats in any way. They are only permitted to fight flying creatures that use only ranged attacks against the fighter.
The problem here is not with the fighter. It's with someone who is being intentionally obtuse. The fighter is certainly not a perfect class (and I would argue no class is). It comes with faults. It takes some thinking to play. It does not come with magic, and shouldn't. It is meant to be the mundane (read: non-magic) fighting class.
There is no way to have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to engage in a reasonable discussion. In this case, he is right when he says the fighter can't fly. He's wrong in thinking that's a problem.
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IN SHORT, PERSON AM FAILING WILL SAVE VS INSANITY?
MAYBE IF BARBARIAN HIT HARD ENOUGH, EFFECT GET KNOCKED OFF OF PERSON.
BARBARIAN MIGHT FORGET SPELL SUNDER FIRST FEW HITS, THOUGH.
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Well there goes my plan for winning this thread.
@deuxhero - I haven't read all the posts but have you considered getting your fighter a bow? For a minimal feat investment (deadly aim and fighters get tons of feats) you can be reasonably effective at range in almost any situation.
Fighters are not permitted to use ranged weapons of any type. They are also not allowed to use racial abilities or magic items of any type. They are not permitted to have friends and allies help them in any way. They are not permitted to use any feats or options not explicitly stated as a class ability which means they can't use any non-combat feats in any way. They are only permitted to fight flying creatures that use only ranged attacks against the fighter.
The problem here is not with the fighter. It's with someone who is being intentionally obtuse. The fighter is certainly not a perfect class (and I would argue no class is). It comes with faults. It takes some thinking to play. It does not come with magic, and shouldn't. It is meant to be the mundane (read: non-magic) fighting class.
There is no way to have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to engage in a reasonable discussion. In this case, he is right when he says the fighter can't fly. He's wrong in thinking that's a problem.
Lol he could always just ready to throw his melee weapon at whatever's flying at him take -4 and enjoy the limited range but it does work. Maybe just carry around a satchel of greatswords to hork at that nasty white dragon ;)?
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IN SHORT, PERSON AM FAILING WILL SAVE VS INSANITY?
MAYBE IF BARBARIAN HIT HARD ENOUGH, EFFECT GET KNOCKED OFF OF PERSON.
BARBARIAN MIGHT FORGET SPELL SUNDER FIRST FEW HITS, THOUGH.
Unfortunately I think it's more complicated then that Mr. Barbarian, I fear our poor op has been possessed by a damnable Qilppoth and it is having trouble coming to terms with the reality of this current material plane. I fear that their is nothing even your mighty club could do to save this soul, may phrasma have mercy upon him.
Lol he could always just ready to throw his melee weapon at whatever's flying at him take -4 and enjoy the limited range but it does work. Maybe just carry around a satchel of greatswords to hork at that nasty white dragon ;)?Well there goes my plan for winning this thread.
@deuxhero - I haven't read all the posts but have you considered getting your fighter a bow? For a minimal feat investment (deadly aim and fighters get tons of feats) you can be reasonably effective at range in almost any situation.
Fighters are not permitted to use ranged weapons of any type. They are also not allowed to use racial abilities or magic items of any type. They are not permitted to have friends and allies help them in any way. They are not permitted to use any feats or options not explicitly stated as a class ability which means they can't use any non-combat feats in any way. They are only permitted to fight flying creatures that use only ranged attacks against the fighter.
The problem here is not with the fighter. It's with someone who is being intentionally obtuse. The fighter is certainly not a perfect class (and I would argue no class is). It comes with faults. It takes some thinking to play. It does not come with magic, and shouldn't. It is meant to be the mundane (read: non-magic) fighting class.
There is no way to have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to engage in a reasonable discussion. In this case, he is right when he says the fighter can't fly. He's wrong in thinking that's a problem.
Not permitted. He can only engage in melee regardless of circumstances. He is only allowed the one option. He is, however, free to use whichever melee weapon he wants so long as it never leaves his hands.
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Not permitted. He can only engage in melee regardless of circumstances. He is only allowed the one option. He is, however, free to use whichever melee weapon he wants so long as it never leaves his hands.Lol he could always just ready to throw his melee weapon at whatever's flying at him take -4 and enjoy the limited range but it does work. Maybe just carry around a satchel of greatswords to hork at that nasty white dragon ;)?Well there goes my plan for winning this thread.
@deuxhero - I haven't read all the posts but have you considered getting your fighter a bow? For a minimal feat investment (deadly aim and fighters get tons of feats) you can be reasonably effective at range in almost any situation.
Fighters are not permitted to use ranged weapons of any type. They are also not allowed to use racial abilities or magic items of any type. They are not permitted to have friends and allies help them in any way. They are not permitted to use any feats or options not explicitly stated as a class ability which means they can't use any non-combat feats in any way. They are only permitted to fight flying creatures that use only ranged attacks against the fighter.
The problem here is not with the fighter. It's with someone who is being intentionally obtuse. The fighter is certainly not a perfect class (and I would argue no class is). It comes with faults. It takes some thinking to play. It does not come with magic, and shouldn't. It is meant to be the mundane (read: non-magic) fighting class.
There is no way to have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to engage in a reasonable discussion. In this case, he is right when he says the fighter can't fly. He's wrong in thinking that's a problem.
Hmmm... does he need both hands on the weapon at all times? If not he could grip said weapon with a locked gauntlet hand, lop off said hand at the wrist leaving it intact in the gauntlet, and throw that at the flying bestie. See all his problems can be solved by modern medicine, the weapon kills the bestie and this poor imbalanced fighter gets to die doing something courageous; if stupid before he can sully his name ^-^.
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Not permitted. He can only engage in melee regardless of circumstances. He is only allowed the one option. He is, however, free to use whichever melee weapon he wants so long as it never leaves his hands.Lol he could always just ready to throw his melee weapon at whatever's flying at him take -4 and enjoy the limited range but it does work. Maybe just carry around a satchel of greatswords to hork at that nasty white dragon ;)?Well there goes my plan for winning this thread.
@deuxhero - I haven't read all the posts but have you considered getting your fighter a bow? For a minimal feat investment (deadly aim and fighters get tons of feats) you can be reasonably effective at range in almost any situation.
Fighters are not permitted to use ranged weapons of any type. They are also not allowed to use racial abilities or magic items of any type. They are not permitted to have friends and allies help them in any way. They are not permitted to use any feats or options not explicitly stated as a class ability which means they can't use any non-combat feats in any way. They are only permitted to fight flying creatures that use only ranged attacks against the fighter.
The problem here is not with the fighter. It's with someone who is being intentionally obtuse. The fighter is certainly not a perfect class (and I would argue no class is). It comes with faults. It takes some thinking to play. It does not come with magic, and shouldn't. It is meant to be the mundane (read: non-magic) fighting class.
There is no way to have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to engage in a reasonable discussion. In this case, he is right when he says the fighter can't fly. He's wrong in thinking that's a problem.
OH OH OH! Or better yet said fighter convinces the white dragons 10th lvl ogre barbarian with body bludgeon to pick him up and use him as a weapon, then through a series of clever bluffs and well placed insults convinces the ogre to hurl him up to the white dragon to face it in pitched melee combat. Look not only has he not wasted anyone's action he's burned up one of the opponents! Also he's gotten a few hits to the bean hopefully removing some of this nasty insanity spell that was cast on him the fight before ^-^.
^^ I never said you should be best at everything, I said you should be (one of) the best (or at least not be one of the few classes without an ability needed to use the specialty the system implies is an option for you). Big difference
If your "specialty" is melee combat, you can't reasonably be expected to be as effective against opponents at range. As people have consistently shown you, there are ways to mitigate that deficiency.
^ Honestly, an ability to force thing to land would be pretty useful for a Fighter. Not as good as real flight, but usable.
I would argue that this would be several times better than real flight.
Someway to actually melee foes as a melee specialist without wasting your actions (stoping you from meleeing things). That was layed out at the very start.
You are a melee specialist, range is not your thing. Expect actions to be "wasted" when the world around you doesn't conform to your specialization. A smart fighter has ways around this. A smart party has ways of preventing the lost actions.
In other words, you see a problem where none exists.
What fictional fighters have access to is an author who's decided how things go, a predertermined destiny where neither she nor her opponent have any say in how things play out.And you know what? In the particular instance of dealing with flying creatures, I don't need my Fighters to automatically get the innate ability to fly. But where the hell are the options that fictional fighters always seem to have access to?
And that's why we have dice. The fact that even nigh godlike Fighters who are approaching epic levels can't even attempt to damage a harpy's wing or jump on the back of a roc while their wizard compatriots are stopping time and planar traveling with a snap of their fingers is silly.
Right now your "predetermined destiny" is on the side of the harpy who can never be knocked out of the sky by mundane weaponry unless it if flat out killed.
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What fictional fighters have access to is an author who's decided how things go, a predertermined destiny where neither she nor her opponent have any say in how things play out.And you know what? In the particular instance of dealing with flying creatures, I don't need my Fighters to automatically get the innate ability to fly. But where the hell are the options that fictional fighters always seem to have access to?
And that's why we have dice. The fact that even nigh godlike Fighters who are approaching epic levels can't even attempt to damage a harpy's wing or jump on the back of a roc while their wizard compatriots are stopping time and planar traveling with a snap of their fingers is silly.
Right now your "predetermined destiny" is on the side of the harpy who can never be knocked out of the sky by mundane weaponry unless it if flat out killed.
Actually, the called shot rules accomplish this pretty well. Ultimate Combat yo.
^ Honestly, an ability to force thing to land would be pretty useful for a Fighter. Not as good as real flight, but usable.
Mancatcher and Rope (or lasso). Can take down flyers and usable with effectiveness for a melee fighter.
Getting in range is something lots of other classes except the Fighter can do.
If that's your concern, and you don't feel like taking advantage to the myriad of methods to close that range, then play another class. For the rest of us the lack of inherent flight does not a bad fighter make. Most of us don't intentionally gimp our fighters the way you seem to be dead-set on doing.
First, the Boruta is a CR 9 mobile plant from AP#44 that can wildshape, but is unlikely to be met outside said AP.
Secondarily, I'm surprised no one mentioned taking the Antagonize feat. It's either a ranged debuff if you're all out of ranged options or a method to make the flyer come within melee striking distance.
Sixth and lastly, Crippling Overspecialization seems to be the problem, not the Fighter. I'm not surprised that a melee Fighter with no investment of feats or gear in range is terrible against flying foes.
First, the Boruta Secondarily, I'm surprised no one mentioned taking the Antagonize feat. It's either a ranged debuff if you're all out of ranged options or a method to make the flyer come within melee striking distance.
I thought of that, but it doesn't necessarily force a melee attack. It just forces an attack, be it melee, range, spell, SLA, or whatever. And if the attack will cause them damage, it's nullified (feat give moving through a wall of fire as an example of causing damage).
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Secondarily, I'm surprised no one mentioned taking the Antagonize feat. It's either a ranged debuff if you're all out of ranged options or a method to make the flyer come within melee striking distance.
Antagonize, as written, is a frequently banned feat for many home groups for a lot of reasons. At least regarding the Intimidate portion of the feat. Rewiring it so that the Intimidate action has the same effect as the Diplomacy action tends to make it more palatable for a lot of folks.
Drawing enemy fire is probably more useful than standing idly by while they shoot the spellcasters, however, Antagonize is a feat - the fighter could have replaced it with some other feat that would boost his melee DPR by a point or two. [/sarcasm]
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Antagonize, as written, is a frequently banned feat for many home groups for a lot of reasons. At least regarding the Intimidate portion of the feat. Rewiring it so that the Intimidate action has the same effect as the Diplomacy action tends to make it more palatable for a lot of folks.
Secondarily, I'm surprised no one mentioned taking the Antagonize feat. It's either a ranged debuff if you're all out of ranged options or a method to make the flyer come within melee striking distance.
Ehh it still seems a bit screwy that you can antagonize with a skill that's meant to bring people closer together but I wait to see a player do something funny with it. As for the intimidate it's ehh, will admit it seems a bit more like a bard ability then a free wheeling feat but I think it could be used without getting too locked up.
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I am glad I read this thread, the two handed fighter I DM who wrecks my flying foes with his magical compound long bow and no feat investment is doing it wrong. I can now tell him that he killed those things in error and must return his experience points.
I have NEVER been a fan of "mundane fighter" as a class concept in a high fantasy game.
Guy empowered by the force of righteousness itself? Good.
Guy who gets so angry he can rip a man in two? Good.
Wizard who isn't quite as good at Wizardry as most in exchange for knowing how to use a weapon? Good.
Guy so skilled at meditation and self disipline he can pull off stunts that defy physics? Good (in fluff anyways).
Guy who literally has no special fighting ability greater than an average guard except knowing a few more tricks and hitting slightly harder? Why does this exist?(Seriously, there is literally no observable ability for someone in universe to tell a Fighter from an NPC class.)
Guy who is angry during fights: OBVIOUSLY SPECIAL
Guy who says god is on his side: OBVIOUSLY SPECIALGuy who dodges and punches stuff fast: OBVIOUSLY SPECIAL
Guy who cuts through entire hordes of beasts on raw skill: YAWN, NOBODY CARES
Makes sense to me!
So, uh, if you don't like the flavor of fighters and you don't like the mechanics of fighters, why are you a fighter? If I don't like horror movies, and I know I don't like horror movies, and every week I go to the cinema and watch a horror movie and never like it, then should I complain to the cinema to stop showing so many horror movies, or should I just stop being an idiot and going to see movies I know I'll hate?
EDIT: Also, you should consider procuring a ranged weapon.
Dude, buy a bow. I know it must feel like everyone is ganging up on you, but any adventurer who doesn't at least carry a bow (or a crossbow or, gods forbid, a sling) is just being foolish. Sure, you won't be dealing quite so much damage when you are fighting a ranged-combat specialized flying creature, but as others have pointed out, rogues are in the same boat when they face anything that is immune or even resistant to critical hits/sneak attacks. One cannot be at 100% optimized effectiveness 100% of the time. Yes, the class is called "Fighter", because they are excellent combatants. They represent the maximum human(oid) limit of combat capability without turning to magic. They are not, however, called "Combat Gods Who Have Massive DPR In All Conceivable Circumstances And Conditions Even When the Beasties Are Flying". The name is just an out-of-game conceit, so that players have a common reference point when describing the class. Perhaps a more accurate title would be "Man-At-Arms", despite the term being a little sexist.
On that note, no one in-universe should be able to automatically tell what class a character is. Class names and features are strictly player knowledge, not character knowledge. The only exception to this might be certain well-known PRCs that are renowned or notorious. It isn't too much of a stretch to assume that the bookish fellow in the robes who looks like he's about as durable as a rice-paper wall is more susceptible to poison than the hulking woman with the greataxe and full-plate. She's obviously a tougher individual. In-game, no one should be thinking "Oh, he's a Wizard so his Fort saves are rubbish. Hit him with the poison, rather than that woman who is obviously a Fighter". They're thinking "That guy spends more time with his nose in a book than actually exercising. His body won't be able to fight off this toxin as well".
Why is this thread still going? Just how bored are you people?
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Why is this thread still going? Just how bored are you people?
Why is this thread still going? Just how bored are you people?
Oh you know how it is, you're at work, alone, at night, bored out of your mind, just had a very successful game where your party fought and lost to a dragon with only minimal damage to the dragon and only dropping one party member, and you're thinking, "how could I possible be bored when I have silly fluff like this to read. After all the barbarian who was jumping all over to place to get up to hit the dragon when it swooped in, or the monk who was doing the same thing just weren't funny enough, I should really read how some fighter with feats to spare will complain that he can't fly and refuses to purchase anything that could possible grant him that ability, he just wants to be able to fly without doing anything about it."
And then I typed this. And you?
Why is this thread still going? Just how bored are you people?It is not boredom, it is a strong sense of duty
LOL After I finished my post I thought about adding that exact link, but I was too lazy.
Why is this thread still going? Just how bored are you people?Oh you know how it is, you're at work, alone, at night, bored out of your mind, just had a very successful game where your party fought and lost to a dragon with only minimal damage to the dragon and only dropping one party member, and you're thinking, "how could I possible be bored when I have silly fluff like this to read. After all the barbarian who was jumping all over to place to get up to hit the dragon when it swooped in, or the monk who was doing the same thing just weren't funny enough, I should really read how some fighter with feats to spare will complain that he can't fly and refuses to purchase anything that could possible grant him that ability, he just wants to be able to fly without doing anything about it."
And then I typed this. And you?
I saw this thread when it first started, and immediately thought, "Well, this person is clearly just being difficult for difficulty's sake; if we ignore him, the thread will quickly make its way off the main page and fade into oblivion and my hatred of humans will slumber on." But then people kept responding. And saying the same thing over and over! Seriously, count the number of posts that say "Get a bow."* And the OP is clearly being intentionally obstinate and I'm tired and it's just SO FRUSTRATING and if we all just ignored it it would go away and dammit now I'm being a hypocrite and contributing to this thread. Ugh.
*Please don't.
I just checked the Bestiary 2 Monster-by-CR-table. If I count every monster that I don't know as one with flight, I'm getting to slightly above 50%. I'm too lazy to check the besiary 3, since the OP was clearly proven wrong often enough.
To deuxhero:
If you want us to see your point you will have to do the following:
1) prove (not merely state) that 50% of the monsters have flight and ranged abilities. Just sayint "that's obvious, check for yourselves" isn't proving anything.
2) show a (your) fighter-build, that's optimized for melee and calculate the DPR for ranged and melee in a transparent way.
3) compare that build with those other builds/classes, that (as you say) have the innate ability to fly and thus are superior in your opinion. And compare all of them, not just 1 or 2 of them, that actually are better against flying opponents than your fighter.
I'll make the following assumptions:
- Str (at least)18 (since optimized for melee)
- Dex 14 (else, you'd totally neglect your AC, which you need for meelee)
- Weapon Training 1: any meelee weapon of your choice
- Weapon Training 2: Longbow (since you already have your meelee weapon training)
- no feats of any kind put into ranged combat
- +1 composite longbow with Str adjustment +4 (since 2800gp are peanuts for level 10 characters)
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first attack:
+10(BAB)+1(Weapon Training)+2(Dex)+1(Bow) = 14 Average AC at CR10 is 24, so hit with 10+ ==> 55% hit chance for the first attack.
second attack:
+5(BAB)+1(WT)+2(Dex)+1(Bow) = 9 ==> hit with 15+ ==> 30% hit chance for 2nd attack.
Damage:
1W8+1(Bow)+4(Str)+1(Weapon Training)=1W8+6 ==> avg. 10.5 Damage per attack.
Critical hit:
chance: 5%*2(attacks) = 10% Multiplier: x3 ==> 10.5*3-10.5=21 additional average damage on critical hit. ==> 10%*21=2,1 average additional damage per round.
==> 11,025 Dmg/round on average.
So, even without any significant investment, you'll kill that average CR10 monster in 11 rounds if you are alone. That's pretty awesome, I'd say, since that would be 3 rounds for a party of 4 melee-fighters, that are actually optimized for other situaitons.
edit: sorry for double-post, but I had to get this off my chest...
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Before Krom stop responding Krom would like help Deuxhero's fighter and buy him a magic longbow. Krom not think him know him can use bows when monster fly away.